1,700 U.S. soldiers quit Iraq: French magazine

[donotpassgo]

PARIS, Dec 04, 2003 (Kyodo via COMTEX) -- One thousand and seven hundred U.S. soldiers have deserted their posts in Iraq, with many of them failing to return to military duty after getting permission to go back to the United States, according to the French weekly magazine Le Canard Enchaine.

snip

Drudge Headline...

http://highmarkfunds.stockpoint.com/highmarkfunds/newspaper.asp?Mode=kyo&Story=20031204/338x6796.xml

[RobertSeattle]

1. BS Detector going off....

:tinfoilhat:

[UpInArms]

2. so who does

the sludgie drudge know at that paper?

The magazine, known for its satires and exposes, said the French intelligence agency obtained the information from what it described an "American colleague."

[Voltaire99]

8. FOIA requestion shows figures consistent with Navy desertion levels

You or your BS detector might wish to look at these official Navy figures obtained under a FOIA request by The Memory Hole.com:

http://www.thememoryhole.org/mil/deserters/navy-deserters.htm

By comparison,1,700 is a little on the low side. But there are still many days left in the year. :-)

[Ernesto]

19. Why would sailers desert?

Unless the navy is referring to Marines &/or their Medical Corpsmen on the ground. Serving on an air conditioned ship can't be that bad.

[Turley]

24. Agree

The Army usually does not hesitate to publicly try deserters in order to set an example for the others.

I also wonder how you can desert your post and still be offered a trip back to the States. Something doesn't quite add up.

[truthspeaker]

25. i think it means they go home on leave

and then don't come back. The desertion happens when they fail to report for duty after leave.

Kind of like failing to report to drill counts as desertion from the National Guard. Like the Texas Air National Guard, for example. But I digress.

[madrchsod]

3. i think the numbers

are to high but there is truth to the basic ideas

[DuctapeFatwa]

4. I hope it's true. It would be sad to think that out of 130,000

Americans, not even 1700 have any objection to kidnapping civilians, torturing people to death, slaughtering zoo animals for fun and destroying homes and crops, not to mention murdering and maiming untold thousands of families.

[Minstrel Boy]

6. If Bush doesn't bring them home,

may they come home regardless.

I'm reminded of the words of Father John Dear to the bloodthirsty goons at his door: "In the name of God, I order all of you to stop this nonsense, and not to go to Iraq. I want all of you to quit the military, disobey your orders to kill, and not to kill anyone."

So I say, God bless them.

[jpgray]

9. Not all 130,000 are engaged in those activities

You are taking a very simplistic view of things--those soldiers who are engaged int he war crimes are probably on the whole relatively small in number. Most of the support troops, or the combat units that are not participating, probably have no idea that is going on. In any case, the orders come from somewhere, and the lack of training for peacekeeping came from somewhere, etc. etc.

I really don't like the idea of blaming the soldiers for this. Those who actually commit war crimes as an act of malice deserve contempt, but for those who have been poorly trained and equipped, we should look first to the brass and the politicians.

[Rainbows]

12. Bravo

Thanks for that communication. Otherwise it will be a return to the deplorable mentality seen during the Viet Nam war of returning troops being greeted with chants of "baby killer" and the like. Many of those troops were drafted, many of todays are reserves and National Guard, or economic draftees who were making an attempt of rising above depressed oportunity in a society that increasingly provides little hope for educational, mental and sociological disadvantage, or cultural prejudice.

[DuctapeFatwa]

13. If I cannot condone soldiers killing your child, neither can I

condone them killing someone else's child just because that child is a Muslim, or has brown skin, or lives in another country. Simplistic? Sure. Either the child is dead, or the child is alive, and what makes the difference is the decision made by one individual exercising free will. I am not aware of any military personnel of any nation who lack free will.

I understand that it is more comfortable to think that US policies are carried out and orders obeyed by "only a few," and I acknowledge that some US voters are experiencing internal conflict due to the difficulties of balancing their disagreement with some war crimes with their zeal for the bush regime and/or its gunmen, but I guess bush was right in a way, there are some things that you are either for or you are against.
Having said that, I do think that it is a positive sign when people "say it ain't so," that is, after all, a step up from "hell, yeah, kill em all," and we are always glad to see progress. The longest journey begins with a baby step :)

[Just Me]

14. "Free Will",...

,...a concept that is so relative,...as is "freedom",...

,...the weight of "free will" upon any person is generally beyond that person's power or control,...

,...it ("free will") includes a spectrum that could have "martyrdom" on one end and "free ride" on the other,...

,...be careful swinging around the baton of "free will",...for it may become too heavy for the most heavy of hitters,...

[DuctapeFatwa]

17. Free will is not the same as desires or priorities

For example, if your employer tells you to do something in a way that you know will be inefficient, counter-productive and unpleasant, and you know s/he is set on it being done, you may make a decision to go ahead and do it to avoid hassles, even to stay employed.

Your doctor may tell you to cut down on fatty foods, and you may not like it and may not want to, but you do it because you want to stay healthy. Or you may know that the doc is right, but still eat fatty foods because you just can't resist them.

If you are in the military, and you are ordered to do something that you know is unethical, immoral and/or indecent, you may do it to avoid hassles or to stay in the military, or you may refuse in order to comply with your own moral values.

In all cases, the decision is up to you. In all cases, you choose what is more important to you, according to your free will, based on the relative strength of your conflicting desires, your personal values and beliefs, and your own hierarchy of priorities.

[0007]

18. I agree, especially when one doesn't know the where the thought...

is coming from. Much easier to say "predestine" - - "Tis true we only think that we think.

[JPace]

5. Who can blame them?

http://www.veteransforpeace.org/Hold_on_to_your_111503.htm


Hold On to Your Humanity: An Open Letter to GIs in Iraq
by Stan Goff
(US Army Retired)

Dear American serviceperson in Iraq,
I am a retired veteran of the army, and my own son is among you, a paratrooper like I was. The changes that are happening to every one of you--some more extreme than others--are changes I know very well. So I'm going to say some things to you straight up in the language to which you are accustomed.

In 1970, I was assigned to the 173rd Airborne Brigade, then based in northern Binh Dinh Province in what was then the Republic of Vietnam. When I went there, I had my head full of shit: shit from the news media, shit from movies, shit about what it supposedly mean to be a man, and shit from a lot of my know-nothing neighbors who would tell you plenty about Vietnam even though they'd never been there, or to war at all.

The essence of all this shit was that we had to "stay the course in Vietnam," and that we were on some mission to save good Vietnamese from bad Vietnamese, and to keep the bad Vietnamese from hitting beachheads outside of Oakland. We stayed the course until 58,000 Americans were dead and lots more maimed for life, and 3,000,000 Southeast Asians were dead. Ex-military people and even many on active duty played a big part in finally bringing that crime to a halt.

When I started hearing about weapons of mass destruction that threatened the United States from Iraq, a shattered country that had endured almost a decade of trench war followed by an invasion and twelve years of sanctions, my first question was how in the hell can anyone believe that this suffering country presents a threat to the United States? But then I remembered how many people had believed Vietnam threatened the United States. Including me.

EDITED BY ADMIN: COPYRIGHT

[dbt]

7. Wo Fuck!!

This is the single most eloquent anti-war piece I have ever read.

It's so good, it makes me wonder if it's a fabrication.

Jesus Harold Christ.

:wow:
dbt

[htuttle]

11. Oh, it's real

Have you ever heard Stan Goff speak? He's quite good.

[Tinoire]

22. Oh it's real alright

You should read his book "Hideous Dream" about what really happened in Haiti... under Clinton at that.

Stan Goff, a Veteran for Peace... Another one squarely behind Kucinich. Go to the Vets for Peace web-site or google Stan. He's got plenty out there and is a real mensch!

[Moderator]

10. JPace

Per DU copyright rules
please post only 4
paragraphs from the
news source.

Thank you.

DU Moderator

[Say_What]

16. When you take away the humantiy of another, you kill your own humanity.

Powerful f*ck'n letter. I just sent it to my nephews who are *draft age*

[guajira]

15. My local news interviewed one deserter last night!

He didn't show his face or give his name. He had returned to the US for 2 weeks, but a month has passed and he still hasn't reported back. He says he will not return to Iraq.

His complaints were that first we were told there were WMD's, then we were liberating Iraq, now we're rebuilding Iraq. He says what will be the next reason the government tells us?

He does plan to report in and then fight to stay out of Iraq! This is one soldier who is truly brave, in my opinion.

[0007]

20. btt

[lebkuchen]

23. Was it Perle or Wolfowitz who said the invasion broke international law?

There's our consciencious objectors' defense, on a silver platter.

Plenty of those called up have refused to go in the first place. I'm glad your guy got out with both arms, legs, hands and feet intact.

[SideshowScott]

21. If True..They are Only Useing AWOL Bush as an Example

Hey the GOP always says that the troops wish to be like Bush or something to that effect the way they crow how the Militiary LOVES the GOP ( Republican lie #129 if your keeping score )
If Bush can go for a one year break during a confilct and get away with it why not someone today?