Honda Unveils 'Super-Clean' Diesel Engine

[RamboLiberal]

http://www.latimes.com/classified/automotive/highway1/la-fi-honda25sep25,0,5438661.story?coll=la-home-headlines

Honda Motor Co. says it has developed the first diesel passenger car engine capable of meeting California's tough 2009 air-quality standards, one that produces almost none of the emissions that have sullied the fuel's image.

The "super-clean" diesel's emissions will be no greater than those of a gasoline engine, Honda said.

The automaker unveiled a four-cylinder engine capable of propelling an Accord sedan to speeds well in excess of 120 mph during a weekend technology demonstration at its research center in this rural town about 100 miles north of Tokyo.

<snip>

Honda also showed off a new version of its fuel-cell electric power system that is smaller, lighter and more powerful than the current model.

The innovations made it possible for Honda Chief Executive Takeo Fukui to promise a sleek hydrogen-powered, fuel-cell electric sports sedan by 2008. Competitors are still limited to stuffing their bulkier systems into boxy vans and sport utility vehicles.

[nealmhughes]

1. OK, now try one that runs on canola...without any conversion.

Good step, though.

[patcox2]

7. A lister will run on canola, or motor oil, or most any oil.

The only reason you can't put straight vegetable oil in most modern diesel engines is purely because the acidity of the oil will eat at the rubber parts and gaskets. They'll run fine.

[Kelvin Mace]

11. And the viscosity problem in cold weather

[Chemical Bill]

15. The high pressure fuel injection...

needs oil that is less viscous than straight veggie oil. Sorry, but I don't want anyone trying it on your say-so, and having to argue with the dealer about the warranty. I've met people who run diesels on heated veggie oil, but I don't know anybody who has 100,000 miles on veggie oil in their car. Also, the fuel injectors can clog with carbon deposits. The glycerine, when burned incompletely, can produce a carcinogenic pollutant. You may be right about a Lister, I don't know anybody with a Lister powered car.

Bill

[gorbal]

22. I think that is sort of what number 1 meant

There are people who have driven around the country with veggie oil in their car, but they had to tinker with their engine first.

[lapfog_1]

2. Our best hope for the near term

clean diesel hybrid technology that's certified to run on 100% biodiesel made from algae.

[krispos42]

3. Or ethanol distilled by wind-turbine electricity

Hell, it's probably the fastest way to export Midwest wind energy. Otherwise you have to build a massive electrical grid to the coasts, and lose 30% in transmission losses.

[Tesha]

6. Wy do you think we lose 30% in transmission? (NT)

[Throckmorton]

10. Try the link below for some discussion on why,

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=68052&mesg_id=68052

[Tesha]

14. There is no practical data in that thread.

The nearest we come is Throckmorton's post, who seems to conflate
line charging current with power loss, but at least does observe
that HVDC transmission mitigates that effect.

Sorry, I'm still waiting for a peer-reviewed citation for the
claim that 30% is lost in transmission.

Tesha

[Tesha]

18. I've done some digging; 30% is clearly off

I've seen cites for 5,000 km HVDC lines (that is, a
transcontinental transmission line) that suggests 25%
losses, end-to-end including the converters.

For shorter lines, the losses are proportionally much
less, heading down into the 1-2% range for intra-regional
transmission lines.

Electricity is one of the most portable forms of energy
we have. One of the more interesting citations stated
that it was about twice as effective at moving energy
as a natural gas pipeline!

Tesha

[krispos42]

20. Check this out

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=115&topic_id=68052&mesg_id=68129

According to Google Earth, distances from Sioux Falls, SD (the heart of wind-generating territory) to various major population centers are: Los Angeles, 1300 miles, New York, 1200 miles, and Florida, 1400 miles. That's a hell of a long way to go. That is a lot of loss through distance, through transformers, and through leakage.

The actual percentages will of course vary depending on distance and conditions. Power lines baking in the August heat of New Mexico will have a higher electrical resistance and thus more loss per mile than the same lines in a South Dakota winter (-20, anybody?).

I guess a good place to start is somebody who is an electical engineer and knows this stuff in more detail than I do. Ask, for example, how much power is lost when Hoover Dam pumps its megawatts five hundred miles to Los Angeles. Do they lose 1%? 10%? 15%?

[Strelnikov_]

16. Hear, Hear

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=115&topic_id=40097#40130

[krispos42]

21. Great minds think alike, I guess :-)

I came up with the idea a few months ago after hearing a guest on The Ed Schultz Show talking about how we were using imported natural gas to distill the ethanol. I said, "Well, hell, why not use electricity from all the wind turbines they want to build but can't because there exists no power infrastructure to transmit it?"

I can also envision wind turbines processing soybeans, sunflower seeds, and peanuts into biodiesel.

Eventually we will be able to use renewable resources to turn water into hydrogen fuel for our transportation needs, but that is a while off. Maybe after we've replaced all of our power plants with nuclear fusion or clean-coal technology.

[ConcernedCanuk]

4. "emissions will be no greater than those of a gasoline engine" WHOOPDEEDO!

.
.
.

our gas engines are so clean burning . .

I need to find a place to go dance in celebration!!

[patcox2]

8. A gas engine that meets the california carb standard is clean.

The emissions from such an engine are cleaner than the air in LA.

[trogdor]

9. Actually, it IS a big deal.

A diesel engine that meets CA gas engine emissions standards is a really big deal. For one thing, you get 30% better mileage from diesel, and for another, diesel is easier to refine and more abundant than gasoline in a given sample of crude. A good amount of gasoline is made by catylizing diesel, which uses a certain amount of energy in the process and further pollutes the air.

So to sum up:

* I would expect a diesel Accord to get something like 42 MPG, with no weird technology required.
* Low sulfur diesel is, on balance, better for the environment than gasoline made from diesel.
* Widespread use of such engines reduces demand for oil.
* A hybrid diesel car (that meets emission regs) is the next logical step. If the manufacturer uses the increased efficiency for fuel savings instead of extra horsepower, I would expect a hybrid diesel Accord to get at least 60 MPG. A Civic so equipped might get 85 - 90.

[Strelnikov_]

17. "Diesel Is Easier To Refine And More Abundant Than Gasoline"

One reason I bought a VW TDI a few years ago.

CTL, GTL, Biodiesel.

I just have to chant this mantra every time I pay $0.90/gal more than unleaded during recent fill-ups.

I am afraid that diesel has fallen victim to politics. That is, the voting sheeple don't use it (directly), so there is no reason to depress the price before elections. Also, it is a profit center for recovering some of the losses from depressing unleaded prices.

On edit: And regarding HP, I would be just as happy with the 3 cyl./1 liter TDI VW developed in my Jetta. It would have the acceleration of a 60's Beetle. But being a diesel, it would have adequate hill climbing ability (torque) and would probably get 60 mpg+.

[B3Nut]

23. My first car, '81 Rabbit Diesel

with the 52hp 4-cyl could hit 60mpg on the highway. Hills were a challenge, I remember steep hills on I-81 in Virginia doing 23MPH in 2nd floored, but I could hit 80 going downhill. :D Pokey as heck, but it went, and went cheaply.

Part of me misses that darn car...

Todd in Beerbratistan

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

24. Why is diesel more expensive than gasoline?

I have always wondered this and (without any proof or investigation on my part) think it might have something to do with the oil companies trying to keep steering us to traditional gasoline.

[Strelnikov_]

27. Here Is One View

from the following article.

In my opinion, it is because of politics and inelasticity. Gasoline is a consumer good, so to speak, and is therefore somewhat more elastic than diesel which is essentially an industrial feedstock. That is, farmers/truckers /construction will simply pay the going rate for diesel and pass the cost along in the price of goods. On the other hand, as the following article notes, gas prices are right in the consumers face.

Cheap gas until the election?
http://www.augustafreepress.com/stories/storyReader$40623

"The Republicans are in a bad situation, even soccer moms know this. The best chance they have now is lower gas prices," says Michael Kane, energy affairs editor at From the Wilderness Publications, which publishes a daily e-mail newsletter on world energy and political news.

"When it comes to heating oil and natural gas, your bill may go up, but you pay what you pay for it. The price is not on billboards around the country. But people shop comparatively for gasoline. It's a real billboard sticker. Cheap gas is about the only push that the Republicans have right now, given that their backs are against the wall in Iraq."

. . .

"Following what the storage numbers say, each week the amount of oil and gas reserves is going up," says Kane. "The people who are involved at the refineries know the market, they know the cycles and they know that they don't need that much gas. By flooding the market when you know that demand is low, and then on top of that when the economy is slow, you know that there's even less demand." Even though supplies are high and prices are falling, refineries have continued to run at higher than 90 percent capacity in recent weeks.

. . .

Most oil executives, Kane says, are Republicans, and they feel that the GOP will protect their interests on Capitol Hill better than Democrats would. Yet, Kane does not see an organized conspiracy to manipulate voters before the election. "I doubt there was even one phone call," he says. "We're seeing a coordinated campaign, but it's not a conspiracy. It's just everybody knowing what benefits them. It's a question of all the parts of the machine turning in the same direction at the same time."

[trogdor]

25. We bleu staters use a lot of it in the winter.

Heating oil is basically the same stuff, and the Northeast is the main consumer of heating oil. Hence the fact that diesel is still high. We bleu staters are being punished.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Now turn that car into a hybrid

and I'll take two thank you.

[Javaman]

12. That's exactly what I'm waiting for. nt

[LostinVA]

13. Me too - although I love my VW Golf TDI

[ACause]

19. Great Idea, wish they could do that with a Chevy Truck

I'm one of those guys who needs a gas-guzzling Chevy truck for work purposes...unless I've missed something the hybrids I'm seeing are all mini-compacts, with a Ford SUV...I think, don't quote me I'm trying to recollect it...little tiny tin cans...now..I'd be first in line when they can make an affordable Chevy truck that runs on alternative fuel systems..until then I'll have to be just part of the problem with energy consumption.

Oh..btw...First Post...wanted to extend a hearty Hello to one and all.

Been reading posts for quite some time, just now was able to get a chance to contribute..and contribute I hope to do.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

26. Probably would not be a problem

if they quit concentrating on making the engines pump out horsepower and instead use that energy output to improve gas mileage. I get the impression that they make advancements in engine technology but pump it into HP instead of getting distance per gallon.

But with gas prices back down to $2.00 in some places, the incentive is gone again for this type of work.