LAT/AP: Pasadena Church Won't Yield to IRS: Vote is unanimous

[DeepModem Mom]

Pasadena Church Won't Yield to IRS
From Associated Press
September 21, 2006

The leaders of a Pasadena church battling the IRS over a sermon critical of the Bush administration delivered before the 2004 presidential election voted unanimously today to resist an order to turn over documents related to the case, the congregation's senior warden told The Associated Press.

"We're going to put it in their court and in a court of law so that we can get an adjudication to some very fundamental issues here that we see as an intolerable infringement of rights," said Bob Long, senior warden of All Saints Church.

The 3,500-member Episcopal congregation, which could lose its tax exempt status over the dispute, scheduled a news conference for 2:30 p.m. to formally announce the unanimous vote of its vestry.

The action sets up a high-profile confrontation between the church and the IRS, which now must decide whether to ask for a hearing before a judge. The judge would then rule on the validity of the agency's demands....

***

The dispute with All Saints centers on a sermon titled "If Jesus Debated Senator Kerry and President Bush" that was delivered by guest pastor Rev. George Regas just two days before the 2004 election. Though he did not endorse either President Bush or Sen. John Kerry, he said Jesus would condemn the Iraq war and Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive war....

http://www.latimes.com/news/local/la-092106allsaints,0,6016658.story?coll=la-home-headlines

[VegasWolf]

1. Good! Challenge the partisian BushCo use of the IRS. nt

[MrModerate]

2. What is it about Republicans and the IRS . . .

That they always turn to it as a club to beat their enemies with (when they're not trying to avoid the auditors themselves).

This will bite the administration in the ass -- remember the "enemies list" and how much it hurt Nixon? This will also put a chill on wingnut churches that come much closer to the line than All Saints did, and will now feel they have to watch their own backs.

[seriousstan]

8. Read the article......

According to the IRS, the only church ever to be stripped of its tax-exempt status for partisan politicking was the Church at Pierce Creek near Binghamton, N.Y., which was penalized in 1995 after running full-page ads against President Clinton in USA Today and The Washington Times in 1992 during election season.

[MrModerate]

18. Which was an *extremely* blatant abuse. My point relates to . . .

Those wingnut churches who have been flirting with violations and thought they could slip under the radar. They are now likely to be rethinking their vulnerability to such an attack, because All Saints' actions were much lest partisan than theirs.

[LiberalFighter]

19. Good case to point to.... NOT

So they stripped one church because they placed ads in a national newspaper criticizing the President before an election.

Now the IRS wants to do the same thing to a church that use their church, their pulpit to preach to their own congregation that attended that particular service. They kept it in-house!

I haven't heard anything about the IRS stripping tax-exempt status from the Roman Catholic church because they threaten to ex-communicate or prohibit Kerry and others from taking communion. They did that publicly when it should had been private.

[jwirr]

35. True, plus the Pope has come out publicly against the war

and was the one who threatened Kerry. If they go after one they had better go after the other. Actually this is a moot issue because the actions they are targeting are only the public actions of churches. It is quite easy for a minister or other church officials to do the same thing quietly. I am glad this church is going to fight.

[ThomCat]

29. But the republicans run entire campaigns

centered around churches. They even got a letter from now-Pope Ratzinger endorsing Bush and attacking Kerry. Yet none of them have ever come under IRS scrutiny.

Left leaning churches have been threatened, and now this one is being targetted.

[Malidictus Maximus]

26. Yup

I remember an Ass of God preacher who stated "A vote for Bill Clinton is a sin against Gawd". Can't figure out why they kept their status as an exempt organization either.

[w4rma]

3. Good. (nt)

[appleannie1]

4. From the article

Under federal tax law, church officials can legally discuss politics, but to retain tax-exempt status they cannot endorse candidates or parties. Most who do so receive a warning.


So the wing nut churches receive warnings and churches that are against war and the needless loss of life, lose their tax exempt status.

[seriousstan]

9. Again, read the article.......

According to the IRS, the only church ever to be stripped of its tax-exempt status for partisan politicking was the Church at Pierce Creek near Binghamton, N.Y., which was penalized in 1995 after running full-page ads against President Clinton in USA Today and The Washington Times in 1992 during election season.

[anotherdrew]

10. hmmmm... but their only asking for documents? text of the speech maybe?

perhaps fighting a bit too early, but it sure looks fishy, considering that criticizing a candidate is clearly fine, it's endorsing that's not allowed. If criticizing is grounds for investigation I'd like to file a freedom of information request for their investigation of the Catholic church... or any number of other sects...

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

15. Why do you keep posting this? And what does it matter?

:shrug: MKJ

[nealmhughes]

5. Makes me proud I used to be a vestryman! And a lay reader....

[keopeli]

6. Liberal Cojones

Would you like an example of "liberals" who are actively resisting Uncle Sam? You need look no further than to the All Saints Episcopal Church in Pasadena, CA.

Liberal Christians (and there are a LOT of them, even in the South) are beginning to take the middle back by speaking out. Good for them!

[Tiggeroshii]

7. I'm an off and on member here...

My uncle's a regular member and has explained to me that the speech the IRS was referring to was a clear violation of the law in which they are seeiking to punish them for. However, the act is rather symbollic considering 90% of the more right wing churches have consistently done the same thing and been entirely ignored.

[zonkers]

11. Seems to me a case of "selective enforcement" by the IRS. If they prevail

in this case, they would be hard pressed not to go after the many right wing churces guilty of the same behavior. This seems like it would ulitimately hurt the "right" much more than the liberal christians.

[mitchum]

12. ALL churches should lose their tax exempt status

that would go a loooooooooooong way toward seperating the sheep from the goats

[Wretched Refuse]

14. Bada Bing

Give that person a cigar!

[C_U_L8R]

16. Bingo Bango Bongo

two cigars,,,,,

church is big business these days

[brg5001]

25. Tax-exempt religion sure seems unconstitutional

Reason? The IRS gets to decide which religions are genuine. If you advance a relgion that doesn't have official approval, you don't get exempt status. There is also the inherent assumption that religious activities are uniformly beneficial and/or charitable. Clearly, that's not the case. Let's stop genuflecting before these mythologists and tax them like any other business.

[mitchum]

39. Indeed! That is also the reason I use to argue against ...

the constitutionality of the tax exemption. Great minds :)

I honestly don't know why someone hasn't taken this battle to the courts.

[FighttheFuture]

37. Yes!! Why the government subsidizes country clubs, aka churches,

is beyond me!!

[E-Z-B]

13. What about that church in NC that expelled all democrat members?

[texpatriot2004]

17. Good! Those Right-Wing Religious Fanatical Churches haven't

had to go through this.

[Kixel]

20. You do realize this church is anti war, right?

It seems as though some of the postings are assuming this is a whack against the religious right. It actually seems like it's a more progressive church. The bottom of the article actually states:

The dispute with All Saints centers on a sermon titled "If Jesus Debated Senator Kerry and President Bush" that was delivered by guest pastor Rev. George Regas just two days before the 2004 election. Though he did not endorse either President Bush or Sen. John Kerry, he said Jesus would condemn the Iraq war and Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive war.

"I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq,"' Regas said, according to a transcript.

[Straight Shooter]

22. What I read from the transcript is that this church is anti Iraq war

Was a similar sermon delivered prior to the war against Afghanistan? If not, then the church is not anti-war. How long has this church been in existence? Was a similar sermon delivered against the Vietnam War? World War II?

What if the church had a sermon to pray for the troops and for the courage of the U.S. in the war against Afghanistan? Would that not turn the IRS argument upside-down?

I commend this church and its members for being willing to fight for their principles. It's about time there was a "showdown" of this sort. Let's clear the air and see what churches can and cannot do.

bush's name is not sacrosanct. He can be dissed in church just like he can in the streets. This isn't about anything but protecting bush.

[daveskilt]

65. seperation of church and state - bigger than party

Its an issue of constitutional significance. I don't care who it benefited, it is an unacceptable blurring that has been going on for waaay too long.

[intheflow]

21. Sing the praises for free speech!

In the pulpit or in the streets. To think that the rligious right use churches to promote their social agendas (anti-abortion, Terri Schiavo) but the left isn't allowed to ay anything about the immorality of war is bullshit.

[Zhade]

53. That is clearly not the case here.

Saying that Jesus would condemn b*s*'s war to a Christian audience is a de facto endorsement of his opponent, Kerry.

I agree that the rightwing churches should ALSO be investigated and held accountable for their violations of the Constitution, but this is likewise a breach of the separation of church and state.

I'm sure it won't make me popular to point out that fact, but there it is - a church CANNOT endorse partisan political candidates.

[brg5001]

23. Right-wing mega-church in Pensacola supported Wingut Gallagher

So where the hell is the IRS when Pensacola hellfire congregation goes ga-ga for rabid wingnut Tom Gallagaher???

This article is about the Republican primary for Florida Governor. The good news: Moderate Repuke Crist beat Tom Gallagher by about 30 percentage points. Gallagher had never steered to the far right until this year, when he clearly did so out of desperation to win the primary over the more popular Attorney General, Charlie Crist. By doing so, Gallagher became an official Katherine Harris-style wingnut and threw away any chance of winning statewide office in Florida. --brg5001, Delray Beach

http://www.sptimes.com/2006/09/03/State/On_the_road__on_the_l.shtml

...(Tom) and Laura Gallagher didn’t stop trying to find others along the parade route and throughout a grueling four-day bus tour that ended Sunday at Pensacola Christian College’s 6,500-congregation church and a picnic honoring the armed forces. (emphasis added)

Aimed at courting conservative voters, Gallagher’s introductions almost always emphasized what he has and Crist doesn’t: a wife, a child and a mortgage.

Gallagher followed with his own comments, nearly always the same: Antitax, antiabortion, and anti-gay marriage. “I don’t want a judge in Massachusetts defining marriage in Florida,” he said countless times, a reference to his support for Florida4Marriage.org, which seeks to add a marriage definition to the state Constitution. (emphasis added)

(END of St. Pete Times Article)

Travel the Red Regions (of both Red and Blue states) and you'll find literally thousands of blatantly pro-wingnut churches like Pensacola Christian College spewing all kinds of anti-progressive venom against SPECIFIC CANDIDATES and distributing phony "voter guides" which are thinly veiled endorsements of American Taliban members. Where's the enforcement against these churches? I realize that liberalism is growing in the Christian community, but read the surveys: The vast majority of those who frequently attend church are religious conservatives. There is plenty of political advocacy going on at these churches, yet enforcement is virtually nonexistent. I think that on a certain level, the authorities fear these wingnuts. Scratch the surface on these outfits and you'll see the long-dormant seeds of the KKK and similar terrorists.

[jpak]

48. PCC is also a Pensacola polling site - PCC students ran off Dems in 2004

It was shocking - and on the local news.

They surrounded anyone they suspected to be a Democrat and denounced them as "sinners" - several people left the line and did not vote.

They also had footage of PCC students carrying their B/C-04 signs INTO the poll and INTO the polling booths.

There were also allegations that PCC faculty "coached" PCC students as they voted.

Christofascist Amerika is already here...

[RangerSmith]

24. I can only agree

with this church in the sense that it's blatant bias that they are being targeted as opposed to all the rw church's who are lobbying their parishioners from the pulpit every single week.

And I do mean every week.

I'd really like to see all these churches cracked down on, including this one, but if all they are doing is coming after the liberal churches than we need to support them.

How fucked up is that for somone who strongly believes in the seperation of church and state?

Man, I feel like I'm living in some kind of bizzaro alternate reality world.

[Zhade]

54. How do we support them and not be hypocrites?

If we say it's okay for our side to endorse candidates, but not theirs, we're hypocrites.

I refuse to be a hypocrite. So how do we support them while not supporting this violation of the separation of church and state?

[yellowcanine]

27. Good. Do they have a defense fund? I want to donate and claim a tax

deduction for it. That is the way to fight this. Have everyone who thinks this is wrong donate $25 and note on their Schedule A that the money went to this church.

[DeepModem Mom]

28. MORE INFO ON THE UNPRECEDENTED DEPTH OF THE INVESTIGATION --

"Bacon said he would consult with attorneys and church officials before deciding a course of action but that the vast majority of parishioners with whom he spoke Sunday thought the church should resist a summons demanding copies of newsletters, e-mails and other records....

...at least one group familiar with the past probes called the All Saints case unusual in the breadth of the summons' request, which also seeks financial records and overhead costs related to Regas' sermon....

The probe surprised Americans United for Separation of Church and State, a watchdog group that has filed 58 complaints of improper church politicking over the last decade and a half. The grievances were roughly evenly divided between liberal and conservative religious groups.

"What perplexes me about All Saints," said Barry Lynn, a group spokesman, "is that I have never heard of a church being asked to undergo such a sweeping, broad and deep investigation on the basis of a complaint about a single sermon by a guest speaker."

All Saints came under IRS scrutiny shortly after Regas, the church's former rector, delivered a sermon that depicted Jesus in a mock debate with then-presidential candidates George W. Bush and John F. Kerry. The sermon did not endorse either candidate....

On Friday, an IRS agent handed Bacon a pair of summonses, one demanding that the church produce by Sept. 29 all materials with political references created in the 2004 election year, the other directing Bacon to appear before tax investigators Oct. 11....

LA Times: http://www.latimes.com/news/printedition/front/la-me-allsaints18sep18,1,194683.story?coll=la-headlines-frontpage

[KikiDisme]

30. It's about time!

I stopped going to a local church because of the blatant pro-Bush retoric...yet you don't hear about those churches being investigated! It is a partisan witch hunt, using yet another federal entity to crush the opposition. It's not like the IRS has nothing else to do, like maybe have those analysts investigating where the Iraq money has gone to! Kudos to those brave parishioners!!


Thomas Jefferson said that the only two recourses we have to rid ourselves of a corrupt government are impeachment or revolution: Dear Congress, which do you prefer??

[yorkiemommie1]

31. I think I'll drop this church a line

...tell them how much I appreciate them.

[AnneD]

32. Good!!!!!!!!!

They weren't engaged in politicking-they were expressing their opposition to the war on the date in question. And unless I went to sleep and woke up in Nazi Germany-they have that right IRS or no. Folks, this is why we separate Church for State. Once they co mingle then it becomes a question of the 'correct' religion. Wish I could get that across to some of these RWCC nuts. But hell, they haven't read the bible enough to realize that Jesus was the biggest baddest liberal to EVER walk the face of the earth. He makes even the most liberal of us look like Scrooges.:smoke:

[Zhade]

55. I'm sorry, but that's a very niave view.

Saying Jesus would condemn the war started by b*s* is just a backdoor endorsement of Kerry.

This is a violation, and along with the SLEW of rightwing churches' violations, is a breach of the law and should not be allowed.

I admire their message, but not their tactics.

[greccogirl]

33. The government needs to stay

out of the business of the church - makes no difference if they are pro or con on Bush. That is what separation is all about.

[spooky3]

34. I just sent them a contribution. Link to their address:

http://www.allsaints-pas.org/all_saints_church.htm

[grannylib]

36. Good God....why isn't the IRS going after those "churches" masquerading

as rePiglican PACs? (rhetorical question; I KNOW why...)
but holy shit...if this church loses ITS tax-exempt status, then Falwell, Robertson, et al should all be fined, jailed, horsewhipped, flung into saltwater...
Selective enforcement indeed.

[kestrel91316]

44. But we ALL know they will NEVER go after any of the RW

christofascist churches or their leaders, because.............(drumroll).............IT'S OK IF YOU'RE A REPUBLICAN!!!!!!!!!!

Laws only apply to liberals.

[daveskilt]

38. They SHOULD loose their tax exempt status

and so should every mega church that uses their pulpit to endorse ANY candidate.

[kestrel91316]

45. True, if they endorsed anyone. But they didn't. They spoke

out against the war (the implication was against Bush). But it has to be an EXPLICIT endorsement, and it wasn't.

I say fight the IRS with your last breath, folks!!! Don't back down. Preaching peace is their right under freedom of religion.

[daveskilt]

64. SO lets reverse this for a moment

The sermon was titled "If jesus debated senator Kerry and President Bush" - and lets say instead of talking about the war (no specific use of the word endorsement) they said that jesus would not support Senator Kerry as he was a wicked baby murderer who supported gay abortion doctors getting married, stealing your guns, and socializing medicine which jesus would never never never want.

Hundreds of churches don't "endorse" specific republican candidates BUT they have an implicit endorsement by saying stupid things like who a guy from 2000 years ago would vote for based on issues that didn't exist when he was alive. Saying I am not specifically endorsing anyone just telling the flock which way their god would vote is nothing but a tax dodge.

tax em all if they want to get involved in telling people who to vote for - GodPAC still a PAC.
If they want to read fairy tales to each other and go out and actually do some good - feed the poor, visit the sick, comfort the widows etc as their book says to do then great - they are exempt. Pretend you know which team god likes best and try to influence people's vote based on that - you are a PAC and should be treated as one.

on edit: now if this is framed as a question of free speech and state interference in church then it gets be a dueling set of constitutional questions - and that is kinda cool.

[kestrel91316]

67. It's merely a question of a double standard, pure and simple. If it's

legal to do what the RW churches have been doing morning, noon and night for years, then it's ok to do far worse than what the church in Pasadena did.

It's kind of like giving somebody life in prison for going 1/100th of a mph over the speed limit, yet letting your friends go 30 mph over the limit and giving them a pass. Doesn't pass the smell test.

[daveskilt]

68. huzzah! we agree

well kind of :) I've thought for years that the RW spinning churches should loose tax exempt status and it would be daft for me to say something different when it is a lefty church - of course if they haven't been enforcing for the wingnuts they ought to leave the lefty's alone too. (or my preference - stop all the churches from doing this unless they want to become PAC's)

[Zhade]

63. THANK you.

What is it about some DUers excusing the violation of the separation of church and state when it suits them?

I don't want our side to be hypocrites!

[toopers]

40. Another reason for the national sales tax . . .

IRS goes away, and we can say what we want without worries about the government coming after us through our finances.

[Lars39]

42. Sales tax is regressive...it hurts the poor.

[The Wielding Truth]

49. Freedom of speech has nothing to do with this tax exemption. They can

say what ever they want. If they get into politics then they have to pay taxes. Churches would then be similar to businesses. Any church even 700 club would be taxed if they endorse a candidate.Pllleeaase tell me that RW churches are innocent of these same charges! I think not.

[Zhade]

56. Robertson's Christian Coalition DID lose its tax-exempt status.

Then look what happened - they went all-out in endorsing the worst rightwingers imaginable.

[The Wielding Truth]

60. Looks like things have changed.

...After years of battling the IRS, the Christian Coalition reached a settlement a year ago that secures its status as a tax-exempt 501(c)(4) lobbying and educational institution....
...The Christian Coalition is still routinely included in meetings with White House officials and conservative leaders, and is still a household name. But financial problems and a long battle over its tax status have sapped its strength, allowing it to be eclipsed by other Christian groups, such as the Family Research Council and the public policy arm of the Southern Baptist Convention....

Hope I'm reading this right. Even though they must follow some guidelines they are tax exempt and thriving. They will easily slide their staunch beliefs when they can save a buck. Funny,huh?
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/09/AR2006040901063_pf.html

[Zhade]

61. Well, it IS the religious reich.

Laws, shmaws.

[leesa]

41. I hope the ACLU gets in on this. I would like to see them take all

the evidence of GOP campaigning churches to court, like Dobson's enterprises.

[mitchum]

43. The ACLU should actually challenge the tax exempt status for ALL churches

because it is unconstitutional when the IRS determines what is a "legitimate" religion and what is not

[rocktivity]

46. Under federal tax law, church officials can legally discuss politics,

but to retain tax-exempt status they cannot endorse candidates or parties...

...The dispute with All Saints centers on a sermon titled "If Jesus Debated Senator Kerry and President Bush" that was delivered by (a) guest pastor...two days before the 2004 election...(H)e said Jesus would condemn the Iraq war and Bush's doctrine of pre-emptive war.

"I believe Jesus would say to Bush and Kerry: 'War is itself the most extreme form of terrorism. President Bush, you have not made dramatically clear what have been the human consequences of the war in Iraq,"' Regas said, according to a transcript.

Where's the endorsement of Bush? Where's the endorsment of Kerry? Where are the endorsements of their respective political parties? The church is in danger of losing their tax-exempt status because a GUEST church official DIDN'T endorse the invasion of Iraq? Can't the IRS tell that they're not making a grain of sense? Props to the All Saints posse for sticking up for themselves!

:headbang:
rocknation

[Zhade]

57. Oh, come ON. You can't be serious.

A Christian leader telling his flock that their savior would condemn the war - thus, in effect, b*s* - isn't an end-run endorsement of Kerry?

What, are Christians in the audience going to think "Jesus would hate this war, but it's still okay to vote for the man who lied us into it"?

Human nature, man. They're internally bound to follow Jesus, and this isn't going to sway them?

[rocktivity]

58. But Kerry voted against the war before he voted FOR it!

There goes your case!

:rofl:
rocknation

[Zhade]

62. I'm guessing that most churchgoers don't even know his record.

And if they do, a lot of them probably excuse his IWR vote like some liberals here do - in which case, it's extremely likely that my argument still holds, at least for some of the churchgoers.

[rocktivity]

66. Well, I'm guessing that those churchgoers are quite capable

of drawing a paralell between between supporting a war and supporting the candidate who originated it. After all, Trent Lott did!

:evilgrin:
rocknation

[Zhade]

47. They're in the wrong.

Separation of church and state applies to BOTH sides of the political divide, not just the side we're against.

[beam me up scottie]

59. Exactly.

It is illiberal to support violations of the constitutional separation of church and state just because we agree with the ones doing it.

[judaspriestess]

50. Congrats to them for their fight - expect jail time

thanks to that asshole in office.

[goforit]

51. The kings of the middle age looting the common man.

[goforit]

52. Now this is a hurch I would attend if I lived there.