Bill Clinton warns against wide torture approval

[sabra]

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N21305407.htm

Bill Clinton warns against wide torture approval

WASHINGTON, Sept 21 (Reuters) - Former U.S. President Bill Clinton joined a chorus of critics of Bush administration proposals for treating suspected terrorists, saying it would be unnecessary and wrong to give broad approval to torture.

In an interview with National Public Radio aired on Thursday, Clinton said any decision to use harsh treatment in interrogating suspects should be subject to court review.

"You don't need blanket advance approval for blanket torture," Clinton said.

...

"If you go around passing laws that legitimize a violation of the Geneva Convention and institutionalize what happened at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, we're going to be in real trouble," he said.

[LynnTheDem]

1. We're going to be a lot more than just "in real trouble".

We're already in that.

[Tellurian]

4. Yep, and more than defining..

Bush is doing an end run about "blanketing" their collective fannies!

Thanks, President Clinton for being our sorely missed Voice of Reason.

hint..hint:

You might go as far to say..What Bush is advocating is not representative of AMERICAN values.
Of course, in a very Clintonesque way.

[DoYouEverWonder]

5. Did you hear him on NPR this morning?

He didn't pull any punches. He didn't talk about 'water boarding', he talked about beating prisoners up and knocking people around. Clinton was at his best the AM.

[Tellurian]

8. I missed it..

Did hear him on nbc, though.

Meredith asked him some hard pointed questions..

It would be good a good thing, if nbc thought of him as the Dr. Phil for the country's politics.
Have him appear every Thursday morning providing alternative fixes for our current problems,
would be a revolutionary idea.. and a huge audience draw for nbc..

Dr. Phil, meet Dr. Bill!! :hi:

[rodeodance]

15. thanks. i missed it also. Glad to see him speaking up.

[Drum]

2. Drum warns against any torture approval nt

[bahrbearian]

17. Why didn't Drum say something before today?

[Drum]

19. Um...not the first time,

nor the last, that I express opposition to torture. :eyes:

[bahrbearian]

21. I was comparing it to Colin Powell, and the rest of them.

[MannyGoldstein]

3. You Can Take The Boy Out Of The Triangle

But you can't take the triangle out of the boy.

What have we come to when a Clinton needs to triangulate between "blanket torture" and "more limited torture"?

Feh.

[gratuitous]

6. Curious phrasing of the story

Each of the actual quotes from Clinton seem to say that torture isn't to be condoned in any circumstance, yet the story over and over again talks about giving "broad approval to torture." No approval does not equate to withholding broad approval. It looks like someone posed the "ticking time bomb" scenario for the last quote, in which Clinton apparently grudgingly admits that there may be some extreme circumstance where you want to start attaching electrodes to genitals, but that's hardly such a commonplace occurrence that you're going to write a law based on it.

And the problem with the "ticking time bomb" scenario goes right back to Donald Rumsfeld's "unknown unknowns." A terrorist suspect is apprehended. Maybe you saw him actually planting a bomb; more likely, he was fingered by someone else. Was the person who identified your suspect reliable? Or did he just have an axe to grind or some revenge to take? Hard to tell, fresh into the situation.

Anyway, you're questioning this guy. Seems shady and evasive. Maybe a few hours in a stress position will get him to be more forthcoming. No? You know, he might be innocent after all. Turn him loose.

No. Wait a second. Maybe he's gone through some secret training to be able to withstand stress positions. Let's ramp it up a bit. After all, we may have a wily one here. Hook up a few electrodes, just to be sure. Wow, he really didn't like that. But it's apparent he didn't really know anything. Hard to let him go now. He'll just run right to a reporter and a lot of questions I'd rather not answer are going to be asked.

You know, maybe there's a time bomb ticking somewhere and we just don't know about it. One of those "unknown unknowns," you know. Better set up the waterboard. I hate to do it, but could I live with myself if I spring this guy and a bomb goes off?

And pretty soon, everyone that gets brought in might be, could be, sitting on a ticking time bomb, and the option to torture becomes the obligation to torture: Because you never know for sure, and isn't it better to be safe than sorry?

[MannyGoldstein]

7. "You don't need blanket advance approval for blanket torture,"

This doesn't sound like "Torture is wrong under any circumstances." Rather, it sounds like The Triangulator is back in fine form.

[gratuitous]

9. That sentence seems awfully lonely in the story

It's difficult to discern what question might have been asked to elicit that response, or whether that was part of Clinton's larger disquisition on what looks like the "ticking time bomb" scenario. He might grudgingly admit that in that Hollywood-style set-up torture might be used, but that it would be so rare, that "you don't need blanket advance approval" to turn to torture.

And, as I said in my post, the option to torture slides into the obligation to torture. I don't necessarily blame Clinton for not thinking that all the way through. From what I can tell, more than 90% of the population doesn't get it, either.

[Tellurian]

13. In lieu of triangulation..

I don't see it as Triangulation. I see it as diplomacy with words.

[AtomicKitten]

10. I don't read that.

I think he's talking about the perils of institutionalized approval for any kind of torture, how dangerous that signal is in the world community.

[MannyGoldstein]

11. I Hope You're Correct

But this is Bill Clinton - a man who parses words with the precision of a Porsche engine. He chose the words. I see no reason to believe that he meant other than what he said - blanket approval of blanket torture. Do you?

[AtomicKitten]

12. I guess it depends on what the meaning of "blanket" is (hee-hee)

My interpretation of "blanket" is in all conditions, covering all instances, applied generally and uniformly without exception.

That's why I think what he was saying was right-on.

[rodeodance]

14. "For one thing, we know we have erred in who was a real suspect." more

"The president says he's just trying to get the rules clear about how far the CIA can go when they're when they whacking these people around in these secret prisons," Clinton said in NPR's "Morning Edition" interview, recorded on Wednesday.

"If you go around passing laws that legitimize a violation of the Geneva Convention and institutionalize what happened at Abu Ghraib or Guantanamo, we're going to be in real trouble," he said.

Like other critics, he said information obtained with harsh treatment may be unreliable and adopting abusive practices could lead to captured U.S. troops being subjected to the same.

Even if there were circumstances where such treatment is necessary to prevent an imminent attacks, Clinton said: "You don't make laws based on that. You don't sit there and say in general torture's fine if you're a terrorist suspect. For one thing, we know we have erred in who was a real suspect."

[CJCRANE]

16. It's a judgement call.

Surely that's what Clinton is saying. There may be rare occasions when an agent takes a risk and pushes the boundaries.

But to legitimize torture would make the CIA no better than the Stasi in Communist East Germany (or worse).

[Slyder]

18. Republican = Torture

Every Republican in an accessory to torture and war crimes. We need to make this clear that to be a Republican is to be an American Torquemada. America is to the moral equivalent of the Spanish Inquisition--one of the darkest moments in Western Civilization. What's next? Great autos-de-fe where good Christian folks can bring there children and a picnic to enjoy the spectacle of hundreds being burned at the stake at one time? Bush is a moral monster. When will the local police start hauling in juvenile drivers who smirk at them and shove electrodes up their penises because they can? I don't care if you are a Republican running for county commissioner, city councilman, mayor, state senator--you the same as a Stasi or Nazi official and are liable to trial and punishment in The Hague. The party of Lincoln has become the party of Hitler. No two ways about it.

[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[mucifer]

22. Bill Clinton increased the rate of nonviolent drug prisoners

during his term as prez.

http://www.alternet.org/columnists/story/12902/

From the article which is from 2002:

"According to a recent Bureau of Justice report, the rate of increase of those that now stuff federal prisons more than doubled the rate of increase of those in state prisons in 2000. The leap in federal incarceration comes at a time when state prison numbers are dropping due to increased emphasis by state lawmakers on drug, and alternative sentencing reforms. The Clinton crime bill further contributed to the federal prison swell by reducing funds for drug rehabilitation and prevention programs, and, worse, keeping intact the racial inequalities in federal drug prosecutions".


Just something to remember when people say how great Clinton is we must remember the damage he has done.

[stepnw1f]

23. Republican Party = Fascism = Torture

still doubts?