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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:41 PM
Original message
CIA ‘refused to operate’ secret jails
Here's kpete's GD thread

CIA ‘refused to operate’ secret jails

The Bush administration had to empty its secret prisons and transfer terror suspects to the military-run detention centre at Guantánamo this month in part because CIA interrogators had refused to carry out further interrogations and run the secret facilities, according to former CIA officials and people close to the programme.

The former officials said the CIA interrogators’ refusal was a factor in forcing the Bush administration to act earlier than it might have wished.

When Mr Bush announced the suspension of the secret prison programme in a speech before the fifth anniversary of the September 11 terror attacks, some analysts thought he was trying to gain political momentum before the November midterm congressional elections.

The administration publicly explained its decision in light of the legal uncertainty surrounding permissible interrogation techniques following the June Supreme Court ruling that all terrorist suspects in detention were entitled to protection under Common Article Three of the Geneva Conventions.

But the former CIA officials said Mr Bush’s hand was forced because interrogators had refused to continue their work until the legal situation was clarified because they were concerned they could be prosecuted for using illegal techniques. One intelligence source also said the CIA had refused to keep the secret prisons going.


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Gman Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:44 PM
Response to Original message
1. One is duty bound to disobey an illegal, immoral or unethical order
Sounds like the CIA folks did the right thing and Bush got called on it.
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MadMaddie Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:46 PM
Response to Reply #1
3. Well I think they have figured out that the gig is up....
they see the Repugs and * imploding and they know how the game is played...even though they may have followed the cabal's orders....they carried them out....and if the cabal has a choice the man lowest on the totem pole is going down before they do...
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CoffeeCat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:13 PM
Response to Reply #3
7. Why would ANY CIA operative trust Bush?
Edited on Wed Sep-20-06 09:15 PM by TwoSparkles
Seriously.

Bush had demonstrated that he will throw the CIA overboard, when it suits him.

Bush cherry-picked the Iraq war intelligence and went to war based on BushCo-created fabrication.
When it becomes evidence that our initial reason for war--WMDs--are nonexistent--BushCo blames everything on the CIA and their "bad intelligence." He's still blaming the CIA today. It's
part of his mantra.

Why would the CIA trust this pResident? Why would they commit crimes for him, when they
know that he would rat them out and feign innocence--to save his own hide?

I'm curious as to why these people would do Bush's bidding for him. What power does Bush
have over people--that he can cajole them into such evil?

Also, it sounds like the CIA officials refused to run the prisons--because they didn't want
to get busted. The new USSC rulings rendered Bush's policies illegal. The CIA refused
to continue after the legal ruling. I don't see any morality here. No one grew a conscience.
They just knew that any torture--after the ruling--would be illegal.

That's why Junior was so angry at that press conference. The legal rulings evaporated his
fresh supply of water-boarding flunkies.
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Xipe Totec Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:45 PM
Response to Original message
2. It's pretty bad, when the ghouls in the WH spook the spooks n/t
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Fredda Weinberg Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:50 PM
Response to Original message
4. There should be prosecutions n/t
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 08:58 PM
Response to Original message
5. Good for them. (nt)
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HereSince1628 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:08 PM
Response to Original message
6. The CIA could have tremendous leverage over Bush.
They know where every "corpse" is buried.

No wonder Bush is in a panic to get the torture bill passed. No wonder he told Gregory it's a choice to reframe terror or the program can't go forward.

First the Generals. Powell. Now the CIA is in mutiny. The wheels are definitely coming off the bus.

Bush will be at his most dangerous now.
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HuffleClaw Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:15 PM
Response to Reply #6
8. "Bush will be at his most dangerous now."
you nailed that one and how! brrrrrrr.

when ya back a bully into a corner...


and ya just know its NOT iran or some other designated 'evildoer nation' thats gonna suffer, its americans. more and more i think the 'october surprise' is gonna be 911 part deux.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:39 AM
Response to Reply #8
17. Bush is as dangerous
as a limp dick. His power is all an illusion which is about to get shattered.

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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:07 AM
Response to Reply #17
18. "His power is all an illusion which is about to get shattered."
God I hope you are right.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:38 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. Unfortunately Bush has had 5 years
to replace the career CIA folks with rapture ready Bushbots.

I've been told that the CIA is split and that the war is internal as well as external. The fact that lot's of 'new' information is coming out in the M$M from the CIA and the military is a clear sign that we are seeing the first signs of mutiny.

You are right, this is a very dangerous time but Bush is incredibly weak at this point. I just wish it was over.

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Clarkie1 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 09:35 PM
Response to Original message
9. Kudos to the CIA. nt
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soothsayer Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:11 PM
Response to Original message
10. They're worried about the midterm elections! Good for them. Too
bad they've already done a whole lot of bad, bad things, but it's a step in the right direction. On the other hand, haven't I been reading here today that * is contracting out our torture?
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Sep-20-06 10:18 PM
Response to Original message
11. No wonder Bush kept shouting that "the program would not move forward"
without a legal "clarification" of the Geneva Conventions. And with any luck his pissiness will not get his way this time.
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lumpy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 02:01 AM
Response to Reply #11
12. It all makes sense now why Bush
said the "program would not move forward". Is he fighting to protect the CIA operatives and military torturers from prosecution or to save his own neck, or both?
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yellowcanine Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 11:46 AM
Response to Reply #12
22. Own neck. He doesn't give a rat's ass about the CIA operatives.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:21 AM
Response to Original message
13. kick
:kick:
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Sven77 Donating Member (645 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 06:30 AM
Response to Original message
14. do you believe this crap ?
pure propaganda, of course the CIA still tortures. There are secret torture prisons all over the world including Europe and the Middle-East.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 07:29 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. I don't know what to believe any more
I definitely think the CIA is covering their own ass with this.
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Peace Patriot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:40 AM
Response to Original message
19. I have suspected for a long time that it's not just the legality of
torture that is of concern to those who have been involved in it, but the PURPOSE of the torture. The Bush Junta claims that they are torturing for "national security," to stop terrorist plots, to "keep us safe," etc. But, when did the Bush Junta do ANYTHING for OUR benefit? I suspect that that is more B.S. from them, more lies and deceit, and that the torture is targeting people who know something about the Bush Cartel--dirty money, dirty arms deals, complicity on 9/11. Here's a for instance--a very likely one: Bush Junta plans to PLANT nukes in Iraq, to be "discovered" by the US troops who were "hunting" for them--follow-up to the concoction of the Niger/Iraq nuke connection forgeries. The plot obviously got foiled. (No WMDs were found.) But WHO knows about it/knew about it? One candidate who might have known about it was the Brits chief WMD expert, David Kelley, who was found dead, under highly suspicious circumstances, four days after Valerie Plame was outed (7/18/03); his office and computers were searched, and, four days after that, Robert Novak ADDITIONALLY outed the entire CIA WMD counter-proliferation network that she headed, Brewster-Jennings. If the issue in Kelly's death, and Plame/BJ's outings, was this false flag plan, who ELSE might have known about it? Well, for one thing, Iraqis! Was the chaos and looting that Rumsfeld encouraged during the invasion a means of trying to implement this plan, and was the immediate set-up of torture facilities at Abu Ghraib cover for finding out who might know about it, and eliminating them?

Just one possibility. The Bush Junta is so filthy they likely have "bodies buried" all over the landscape. The secrecy, indefinite detention, and torture prevalent at places like Guantanamo Bay, Abu Ghraib and all their secret prisons may be their personal, private coverup efforts. Nothing to do with "national security" whatever. Just as their pervasive spying on Americans likely has nothing to do with stopping terrorism, and everything to do with blackmailing their political enemies.

And it may that the CIA and others have just had a bellyful of this crap--and that they also fear NOT just exposure to legal liability, but exposure of what the torture has been used FOR.

Let me put this a different way: IF the torture had REALLY been used to uncover and stop REAL terrorist plots, Americans in general (and people in general) MIGHT BE inclined to forgive it, in retrospect--although we must never forget that 63% of the American people oppose torture "under any circumstances" (according to a May '04 poll by the NYT). But still, IF there had been a SERIOUS threat (such as a nuke or bioweapon about to be unleashed on a US city, for instance), many would tend to want to "look the other way" about subsequent disclosure that torture was used to prevent it. We may never want torture to be legal--but we might FORGIVE it (be disinclined toward prosecution, or severe punishment) if millions of lives were at REAL risk. But IF, on the other hand, torture was used to cover up dirty Cheney arms dealings, money tracks to 9/11, deceitful planting of WMDs in Iraq, or any of a number of plausible Bush Cartel crimes and illegal profit ventures, it would NOT be forgivable and most people would be inclined to prosecute them to the hilt (and, not unimportantly, to anathematize the Republican Party forever).

Based on our knowledge of the "Bush crime family" (as Mike Malloy puts it)--just on what is known about them (Lord knows what the unknown part is)--which is the more likely scenario: that the Bushites are torturing to "keep us safe," or that the Bushites are torturing for their own profit (or self-protection)?

I rest my case.

ALWAYS beware of the little bits and pieces of things we are permitted to see, by the war profiteering corporate news monopolies. A revolt by the CIA (or even part of the CIA), by the military, or, indeed, by other members of the military-industrial complex and the US political establishment, is BIG DEAL. These people CLOSE RANKS if what is going on is simple illegality in what they consider to be a good cause. We are only seeing the tip of the iceberg (--or the tip of the volcano) (--as Hugo Chavez said yesterday, you can smell the sulfur). The kinds of defections we are seeing from within our "secret government"--and from within the military and political establishment--are unprecedented! Not even during the Vietnam War did we see such a profound disturbance within our government. And I just don't think the reason is simple fear of prosecution for over-zealous pursuit of America's "safety" in the "war on terror." There is something much more serious beneath all this. I tend to think that the Plame/BJ outings and David Kelly's death are the key to it. Or one of the keys. The holes in the official 9/11 story may be another key. We can only guess. But SOMETHING is going on, that has frightened a lot of people--and has appalled some, to such a degree that they cannot abide any further participation in it, and are trying to extricate themselves and/or trying to bring the Bush Junta down.

We may be glad or hopeful, politically--although I think that is rather superficial view. This truly "Byzantine" empire is an extremely dangerous place, and normal political thinking doesn't apply. For one thing, our Corporate Rulers now have direct control of our elections--via electronic voting, run on TRADE SECRET, PROPRIETARY programming code, owned and controlled by Bushite corporations, a coup achieved by the biggest crooks in the Anthrax Congress, Tom Delay and Bob Ney, but ABETTED BY corporatist 'Democrats' like Christopher Dodd, and by the MIND-BOGGLING SILENCE of the entire Democratic Party leadership. It may be that this electronic voting scam is the long term plot that is in motion: a plot of flay us with Bush fascism, and to comeback with milder Corporate Rule (under, say, Hillary) so that we will be GRATEFUL for Corporate Rule (and not rebellious, as were the 50,000 people who shut down the World Trade Organization meeting in Seattle in 1999--a protest that was as much against Bill Clinton as it was against the US-based global corporate predators that the Clinton administration was shilling for, in "free trade" agreements like NAFTA). Bush fascism, and the reaction against it within government, may be part of a larger, longer term schema to subdue and disempower the American people. That Bush fascism has gone so far--and inspired revolt from within--may or may not be part of such a schema. If this paranoid, 'tinfoil' hat conspiracy theory turns out to be true (and who knows, these days?)--that is, if what we are seeing is a long term CORPORATE conspiracy (hit 'em with fascism; fall BACK to MERE Corporate Rule)--then I tend to think it was not meant to go so far, and that Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld & Cabal are "out of control" (grabbing way too much power).

Our job, as the citizens of the Old Republic, is the restore our right to vote. If we don't, then "Tinfoil" says that what we will be inflicted with, in '08, will likely be a Corporatist Democrat with the powers of an emperor (torture, spying, indefinite detention, suspension of 'habeas corpus,' ripping up the Constitution in times of peril, massive, unaccountable military/national security expenditure, etc.--all pioneered by Bush--extremes that NO Corporate Democrat has disavowed, or at least not with any sincerity!). We may experience a feeling of "relief" that the fascists are out. But we will have lost our democracy forever.

------------------------------

THROW DIEBOLD, ES&S AND ALL ELECTION THEFT MACHINES INTO 'BOSTON HARBOR' NOW! BUST THE MACHINES--VOTE BY ABSENTEE BALLOT THIS NOVEMBER!

If enough people vote by Absentee Ballot--if everybody who despises the Bush Junta votes by AB (60% to 70%)--the reign of these diabolical machines will be OVER. And that will be a start--the essential first step--in recovering our sovereignty as a people.



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Supersedeas Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 09:41 AM
Response to Original message
20. a signal of a collapse of the Bush Regime from within???
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AnneD Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 10:43 AM
Response to Original message
21. AHA!!!!!!
That is why the sudden push for changes in the Geneva Convention...These folks are scared shitless. They tried to scrub the CIA when they put in Porter Goss. So many good and decent career agents were canned or forced to resign so they could put in folks that were loyal to Herr Bush. Well they didn't scrub hard enough.
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wicket Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 12:59 PM
Response to Reply #21
23. They are crapping their pants!!!
n/t
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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
24. But.... but... "the program will not go forward"!
when i heard him say that i thought "So fucking what?"

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maxsolomon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 01:21 PM
Response to Original message
25. deup
Edited on Thu Sep-21-06 01:22 PM by maxsolomon
sorry
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FoxOnTheRun Donating Member (829 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Sep-21-06 05:14 PM
Response to Original message
26. that's why you outsource and privatize
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yurbud Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 01:52 PM
Response to Original message
27. kick
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Name removed Donating Member (0 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Fri Sep-22-06 02:45 PM
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28. Deleted message
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