Islam, violence go hand in hand: (Cardinal) Pell

[ECH1969]

Australia’s most senior Catholic has launched a stinging attack on Muslims, saying their aggressive reaction to the Pope’s recent comments about Islam highlighted the link between their religion and violence.

As the world braced for more Muslim anger over Pope Benedict’s remarks, Cardinal George Pell said “the violent reactions in many parts of the Islamic world” justified one of the Pope’s main fears.

“They showed the link for many Islamists between religion and violence, their refusal to respond to criticism with rational arguments, but only with demonstrations, threats and actual violence,” the Sydney Archbishop said yesterday.

In Somalia, Italian nuns were evacuated from Mogadishu after the weekend murder of one of their colleagues amid the international Muslim fury. The slain nun, Sister Leonella, 65, one of the longest-serving foreign members of the Roman Catholic Church in Somalia, worked at a charity hospital.

http://www.thewest.com.au/default.aspx?MenuID=28&ContentID=7201

[endarkenment]

1. Death toll from Christian nations

vs death toll from Muslim nations, 1800-2006. Anyone care to hazard a guess? My guess is that the christian half of western civ has managed to out-kill the muslim half by 1000-1 or worse.

[patcox2]

8. Name a religious war perpetrated by christians in that time period.

The last wars which were in any way motivated by religion perpetrated by christians date back to the reformation.

Now, answer this: name a religious conflict in the world today which does not involve muslims.

[Ravenseye]

11. We're not in a religious conflict

It's economic, but it's being dressed to look religious by the extreme right on both sides because it suits their goals.

The Islamic world doesn't hate Christians, they hate being controlled, manipulated, and killed. The death toll in Iraq is well over 10 times the Iraqi dead versus the American dead. Over a million were killed from the sanctions prior to that. Many more died there during the Iran Iraq war which was propogated and fed by the West. There are people in Iraq who are attacking our troops who quite possibly had nothing against us before last year...when their family was killed by an American bomb.

[saigon68]

127. You can just feel the "LOVE OF CHRIST" emanating from Cardinal Pell

As he encourages his sheep to maim,disembowel and KILL

[IndianaGreen]

136. I am sure he protected several pedophile priests during his career

and he has probably railed against LGBTs on more than one occasion. So what's new from a Catholic prelate?

[saigon68]

140. He is an Evil Skunk of a man

[Lindacooks]

13. The Iraq War. By George W. Bush. A "Christian".

Has killed around 100,000 people.

[barb162]

17. Very good points

[endarkenment]

20. You are changing the argument.

Nice try though. I will accept your terms however. Every single war, every single imperial adventure and colonial conquest of the last 200 years has been framed in religious terms and defended as God's work.

We are routinely informed that we act in the name of the Christian God as we murder, conquer, and destroy.

[barb162]

24. Framings are not often the real reasons events occur.

The world over for thousands of years the usual reasons for war have to do with grabbing power , ethinic strife, etc.,and you might want to take at Islamic conquests and power grabs of Christian populations since 600AD.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

30. Exactly.

So while there were wars fought in the name of Islam, there weren't any that actually had to do with Islam.

[barb162]

32. I sure wouldn't go that far. What 's with bin Laden

Is he about religion or power or both. And why start wars and kill people over what the Pope said? Should the West start a war(s) over what mullahs say. If one wants to talk about incendiary speech, look at the mullahs and imams preaching hate.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

34. Osama bin Laden doesn't have anything to do with religion.

Not any more than George Bush does.

"And why start wars and kill people over what the Pope said?"

Nobody started a war over what that dumb son of a bitch said.

"SHould the West start a war(s) over what mullahs say."

Barb, I guess you haven't been paying attention. The West has started two wars in the last five years with the express purpose of blowin' up muslims.

[patcox2]

38. Let Osama speak for himself.

His stated purpose on 9/11 was the expulsion of the jews from Israel and the expulsion of infidels (US Troops) from the holy land of Saudi Arabia.

He is all about religion. Don't make stuff up.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

41. Sure.

And Bush said that God told him to invade Iraq.

But neither has anything to do with Islam or Christianity.

Duh.

[barb162]

49. Take a look at his writings; you couldn't prove it by

examining his writings over the years
http://www.guardian.co.uk/g2/story/0,3604,584478,00.html
Is this the man who inspired Bin Laden?
snip
Qutb, regarded as the father of modern fundamentalism and described by his (Arab) biographer as "the most famous personality of the Muslim world in the second half of the 20th century", is being increasingly cited as the figure who has most influenced the al-Qaida leader. Yet outside the Muslim world, he remains virtually unknown.
Qutb was the most influential advocate in modern times of jihad, or Islamic holy war, and the chief developer of doctrines that legitimise violent Muslim resistance to regimes that claim to be Muslim, but whose implementation of Islamic precepts is judged to be imperfect. Although Qutb is particularly popular in Saudi Arabia, his copious writings have been translated into most of the languages of the Islamic world. In the 1960s and 70s, when many Afghan religious scholars came under the influence of the Muslim Brotherhood, Qutb's ideas attracted particular interest in the faculty of religious law in Kabul, and the scholar Burhanuddin Rabbani translated him into the Afghan language of Dari. However, though Qutb is studied everywhere from Malaysia to Morocco, there are many versions of fundamentalism and his writings have been read and interpreted in many ways (and some Islamic fundamentalists have actually written polemics against Qutb's version of Islam).

snip

And I guess you haven't been paying attention at all. I have been paying very close attention. The West has NOT started two wars in the last five years with the express purpose of blowin' up muslims. Certain Moslem extremists have started war and terrorism with the express purpose of blowing up westerners, mainly Christians and Jews.

[John Gauger]

82. Expelling the Christians and Jews is all about power

He wants to eliminate other power centers in the region in hopes of gaining control of that regoin's oil. The fact that they happen to be another religion just makes it easier for him to garner support from his peers.

[John Gauger]

80. Osama is after Arabia's oil

Pure and simple. He uses his faith in his fight but it is secondary. He just happens to be a Muslim because all the oil is in a Muslim region. He would use any other religion in the same way. He wants to slaughter the Shiites but that is more ethnic than religious.

[0007]

115. ..... Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell are no diferrent than the mullahs

or that fucking nut Lt. General Jerry Boykin. Give me a fucking break!!

[endarkenment]

47. Uh - hold on there Barb.

Religion is routinely used as a justification for war, which is in part my point. It is rarely the 'real reason'. Even the 'wars of religion' that raged across western Europe from the 1500s through the 1700's were more about power struggles between competing alliances of ruling families than about religion. We conquered the Americas under the cross, putting the sword routinely to unbelievers; enslaved whole populations using theocratic justifications. The bloody expansionist period of Christian civilization did not end until the world wars of the 20th century, and it currently is under a bit of a revival thanks to our current crop of theocratic imperialists.

The other part of my point is that while the muslim world also has a history of violence under the banner of Islam, in this respect it is no different than we are. We both raise the flags of our religions over our armies and convince our populations to fight and die by telling them that they act in God's name. The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church lecturing Islam about violence would be amusing if it weren't so deadly.

So I ask again, count the bodies and get back to me about which branch of western civilization is the bloodiest.

[barb162]

56. Tell me which branch of Islamic civilization is bloodiest

The current conflict I think is based on Islamic fundamentalist religion unfortunately. bin Laden's writings are very clear on that

Yours:"The hypocrisy of the Catholic Church lecturing Islam about violence would be amusing if it weren't so deadly."
That is incorrect. The violent and intolerant reaction by Islamic extremists calling for the death of the Pope, killing a nun, etc., proves the violence.

[endarkenment]

67. And our murdering 100,000+ Iraqis doesn't?

We should just discount and ignore the proclamations by President Stupid that we are doing God's work?

I am not saying that Islam is not used as an excuse for violence I'm saying we are bloody hypocrits for raising this issue.

[patcox2]

36. No we aren't.

Thats just argument by assertion. We are not routinely told that we act in the name of the christian god when we engage in "conquest." By the way, when was our last war of conquest(before Bush), I believe it was the Spanish American War, was that a religious war?

WWI, II, Korea, Vietnam, none had anything to do with religion whatsoever.

[goodhue]

45. The US fought the cold war against Godless communists

Korea and Vietnam were a part of that

[endarkenment]

50. The massacre of the people of the phillipines

was justified as 'bringing christianity to them'.

"We are not routinely told that we act in the name of the christian god ".
Really? Which war was it that we were not told this? Onward Christian Soldiers.

[pampango]

95. Massacre to "civilize" not to bring Christianity

Not sure who you are quoting with 'bringing christianity to them', but most Filipinos were already Catholics by that time due to 400 years of Spanish colonization. During my stay there in the early seventies, the histories I read were that we massacred many of them in a long guerrilla war in order to 'civilize' them. Other than the Muslims in the south of the country, almost all Filipinos were Christians by 1898.

[Name removed]

99. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pampango]

128. Glad you settled that historical question

Living there and learning the history of our involvement clouded my mind. Since we were taking the Philippines from Spain, it is probable that most Americans believed that it was our mission to "democratize" (now there is a historical parallel with the present contention of the * administration in Iraq) the country, not bring Christianity to it. Indeed, in religious terms, there may have been more anti-Catholic bias than there was anti-pagan bias.

btw, I don't believe that most Americans, or perhaps you meant most people in general, are idiots. If I did, assuming that I was exempting myself, I would view myself as a bit of an elitist and more likely a Republican than a Democrat.

[endarkenment]

135. That fact did not deter the propoganda here.

How the history is portrayed in the Phillipines is somewhat irrelevant. 'Civilizing' was almost always identical with 'they don't worship our God so they aren't civilized'.

[John Gauger]

83. But they were all wars of conquest

They were all entered with a view on what resources we would gain from their outcomes or what position we would be left in on the world stage. Religion was mentioned in those wars, not so much against the Germans and Austro-Hungarians, but against the Japanese, the Koreans, and the Vietnamese.

[0007]

120. Cough cough

[CJCRANE]

26. Name a muslim nation that is at war with us.

There is none. It's not a war, there are small cells of terrorists in various countries. Many of them are self-starters inspired by "shock and awe".

[Fovea]

29. WWI

was highly promoted by the anglican and Dutch protestant churches who draped flags over their altars.

Even a republican analyst like Kevin Phillips admits that.

The American civil war was highly influenced, for better or worse by Northeastern christian churches. Southern churches promoted slavery.

As far as religious conflicts today...
The Aum Shinriko Buddhists in Japan, the Falun Gong and further, your use of the word 'involve' suggests that even victims of persecution are somehow at fault, like the defenders of the attack on the Sikh Golden Temple. And the use of 'perpetrated' is also more restrictive than your use of 'involve.'

The list could be expanded, these simply are a couple that come immediately to mind, and frankly your reductionist post did not deserve even this much effort save that it is so offensivly wrong.

Read Locksley Hall by Alfred Lord Tenniscourt for a glimpse of the philosophical underpinnings of the suffering and destruction of cultures in Africa and elsewhere in the 19th. C. And while you are at it, check out the unreadable books from Easter Island, and why they cannot be read.

People have been executed for witchcraft in the 1980s in South Africa and Mexico...No muslims involved.

And before you respond, you might want to read this book...

http://www.amazon.com/Hitlers-Pope-Secret-History-Pius/dp/0670886939

[JVS]

46. The Dutch weren't even in WWI, besides...

if your really want to point fingers at a particular religion, Serbian Nationalism was bound to the Eastern Orthodox Church. Obviously Gavirillo Princip was a Othrodox fanatic and not merely a Serbian nationalist as history has told us. Time to reveal the truth! :sarcasm:

[Fovea]

71. I neither implicated the Dutch government

or the Black Hand. But don't let that stop you from drippiing sarcasm.

I am a Dutch-American, and I feel qualified to convey what my grand parents told me about why they became mennonites.

I also feel that the core of my refutation is untouched. If the statement is about how the author cannot identify a religious conflict that does not involve moslems, they are not looking very hard, or they are not wanting to see what is patently obvious.


BTW, are you seriously suggesting that Serbian Nationalism was the actual reason for WW1?

[muriel_volestrangler]

42. The Taiping Rebellion

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Taiping_Rebellion

What happens when Christian sects get really out of control. Perhaps 20 million dead.

[Rex]

73. Gulf War I and the Iraqi War.

Operation Crusade. :eyes:

[John Gauger]

78. Umm....

Buddhists vs. Hindus and the slaughter of the Untouchables?

[coalition_unwilling]

106. Not entirely true, as the entire genocidal project in the

"New World" was predicated upon Christianizing "the savages" at the point of a bayonet. Took place long after the Reformation, as a point of fact.

[JNelson6563]

130. Iraq. We're on Crusade. Deal with it.

There are as many blood thirsty, all-who-think-differently-must-die, Christians as Muslims. To think otherwise is to delude one's self willingly.

Julie

[krispos42]

142. American Civil War

600,000 dead or wounded. South claimed African slaves were property, not people, by divine right and guidance. The "State's Rights" excuse was brought up to prey upon the deep-seated racism that such a claim caused, and the media of the time played it up so that rich slave-owning landowners could keep their cheap labor force.

[and-justice-for-all]

152. Well after the Christians destroyed Rome...

...The Dark Ages was born, a time when the Church ruled Europe and during that time they persecuted and killed more people then Hitler did during the Halocaust. Due to the Chruches strangle hold on Europe, when cleanliness/bathing went out with Rome thanks to the Christians. Bathing was reserved for the Rich and the Clergy, if everyone was allowed to bath properly many people would have survived the Black Plague which the glories Church blamed on the Jews. Lets not forget the inqusitions and all the FAILED crusades...

Yes, the Christian Religion has murdered, drowned, burned alive and even tortured people all by the order of the Clergy. Queen Isabella of Spain was one hell of a killer, those who did not agree to her view of the faith was quickly done away with. Not surprising this is how every Clergy head felt and also implemented...Popes too, notorius murder fiends.

[angstlessk]

153. Name a war against Muslims that does not include OIL or ENERGY

Interests. See any action in Dufar? NO...no OIL...See any action in Sudan, Somolia? NO...no OIL. I don't think it is about religion but THEY ARE ATTTACKED AND BELITTLED cause they have OUR OIL under their sand.

[barb162]

15. Turkey killed about 1.5 million Christian Armenians

http://www.historyplace.com/worldhistory/genocide/armenians.htm

The first genocide of the 20th Century occurred when two million Armenians living in Turkey were eliminated from their historic homeland through forced deportations and massacres. snip

I think you'd be way, way off with your ratios

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

23. Barb...

The first holocaust of the 20th century occurred between the 1890's and 1906 when European Christians slaughtered some five to ten million Congolese. They did so in the name of spreading Christianity and to "protect" the Africans from "Arab" traders.

So the ratio may be off if people conveniently forget certain atrocities committed by white Christians.

[barb162]

43. More th like 3.5 million Congolese 1885-1908

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Democide

I wonder how many millions of Native Africans were killed or sold off into slavery by Arab traders over the last few hundred years.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

44. The numbers are arguable.

But it's interesting to see how you minimize and ignore them because it's Christians that did it.

:thumbsup:

[barb162]

52. The numbers are estimates

But it's noteworthy how you ignore stats and facts because its Moslems that did it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

61. Yeah, yeah.

Go tell it to the Pope.

[Orrin_73]

33. 5 million Turks died during

the WW1!! does that also count.

[barb162]

40. Are you talking about soldiers who served in the Turkish military

[athena]

86. Soldiers?

You honestly think only "soldiers" fought to protect Turkey in WWI? The country was being attacked on all sides, and the people fighting and dying were young men and women, children, the elderly -- all kinds of people, as it is whenever a country fights to protect its independence. Ataturk got the people together to topple the Sultan (i.e., topple the one who caused the deaths of the Armenians -- a fact which you and your ilk conveniently choose to ignore), fight off the enemy (which the Sultan was not doing effectively), and form a secular democracy.

People like you are motivated by hatred of the Turks will never see that. Your bias makes you irrational, and you will never convince many people to your way of thinking. People only have to see the hatred in your heart and compare it to the kindness, hospitality, and humanity of the Turkish people they know.

Another point to consider is that the Armenians were not deported because of their religion. They were deported because they collaborated with the French in trying to bring down the Ottoman empire. In the process of being deported, many died. It was cruel, but it certainly wasn't the most cruel thing an empire has ever done. And given the circumstances, one can argue about whether it really was "genocide".

[endarkenment]

90. "In the process of being deported, many died"

Uh - bullshit. They were killed. They were deported off planet and out of this life.

[John Gauger]

84. I feel it is important to note

That is was not so much the Turks as the Kurds who purpetrated the genocide. Not relevant to the discussion but important for full disclusure. That behavior was however sanctioned by the Turkish government.

[endarkenment]

87. If by perpetrated you mean 'carried out'

I believe you are correct. However the Armenian Genocide was Turkish (Ottoman) policy and the Kurdish population (which of course lived alongside the Armenians) enthusiastically participated in carrying out the genocide, much like Ukranians and Poles and other non-Jewish ethnic groups participated in the slaughter of east european Jews, as they all stood gain through the elimination of a competing tribe from their respective regions.

[athena]

92. The *Ottoman* government.

Not the Turkish government. Ataturk and the Turkish people overthrew the Sultan and his Islamist empire and built a secular democracy in its place. The laws were changed, and even the writing system was changed. People who go on and on about the Armenian genocide conveniently neglect this important little fact. And they read almost no history, so most of them aren't even aware of it.

[BuddhaGirl]

123. current Turkish government didn't perpetrate the Armenian Genocide

but they don't acknowledge it either - despite the overwhelming evidence. My ex-husband's grandfather perished in the Genocide...he was rounded up with other intellectuals in Istanbul and massacred.

[athena]

139. "glory of a shared victimhood is seductive indeed ..."

The following Nation book review describes the psychology of the Armenian diaspora extremely well. It also points out that the dispora's hatred of Turks is not doing Armenia a favor.

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20040920/toumani

Note: Emphasis is mine.

In this culture, many diaspora Armenians are reared to hate Turkey with a fervor that seems completely at odds with their daily lives as typical--even liberal--American citizens. Clothes with "Made in Turkey" labels are put back on the rack, Turkish restaurants are avoided and a vacation in Istanbul is shunned by even the most adventurous travelers. At Armenian summer camps and youth groups, third-generation Armenian-Americans who don't speak Armenian and have never seen Armenia learn to perpetuate this legacy. Many are descendants of genocide survivors, but often it is the later-generation descendants who take up the cause most ardently, suggesting that something besides a simple interest in justice fuels their behavior. In the face of the distress of assimilation, the glory of a shared victimhood is seductive indeed, especially when it can be attained without having actually suffered.

In the battle for the soul of the republic, Kocharian's administration is in an awkward bind, forced to seek diaspora funding and thus obliged to tolerate the diaspora's unique psychological demands--which, though they are born of good intentions, are not necessarily in Armenia's best interests. Indeed, according to Libaridian, officials in Armenia would rather not encourage a nation of victims. "What is this?" he asked in a recent interview, adopting the perspective of an Armenian official. "We respect, we mourn, but we don't want a bunch of citizens who live for and identify themselves as victims in history. We have won a war."

What, then, does a disgruntled diplomat offer as an alternative? "The best way to commemorate the victims of the genocide is to live, survive and progress, to give an opportunity to the new generation in Armenia to live better than their parents," Libaridian says. "Then, if they have the means to do something more than we could do to gain recognition, let them do it. But give them that opportunity." Armenia's supporters in America should keep sending money--but in the political arena, they should step aside and allow Armenia's officials to develop economic relationships that will insure the country's stability, so that the era of tragedy that began with the genocide does not continue indefinitely, sustained by the age-old hatred that makes less and less sense as time goes on. The truth will no longer set anybody free. Armenia has suffered enough.

[endarkenment]

138. Ataturk was one of the CUP (young turks)

and was very much part of the military group that controlled the Ottoman Empire during WWI and the Armenian Holocaust. He does not get off the hook for this one and was no more a good guy in this than Rommel was with respect to the German atrocities 25 years later.

[shadowknows69]

137. Yep, I don't think they want to start comparing body counts

All that bad catholic stuff happened hundreds of years ago so that means it didn't really happen.

[cspanlovr]

2. I wish these guys would just shut their big mouths. Don't they know

discretion is the better part of valor.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[lumpy]

12. Have you noticed that It's usually people in

power positions who stir the pot and sling the mud, whether they be priests, politicians, presidents, dictators or media pundits. These are the people who affect our lives by running off their mouths and using this power irresponsibly. The resulting drama is overpowering and destructive. It is like some sort of controlled anarchy against mankind. Ugh.

[CJCRANE]

28. Good point.

It would be nice if the Pope (and now this Cardinal) had asked his followers if they want to pick a fight with the muslim world.

I think most of them would politely decline.

[Supersedeas]

62. all of this appears so-what coordinated to me too

[greccogirl]

39. Valor? What would they know about that?

[John Gauger]

85. Oh- coming out with the proverb!

It's true, too. I think the Pope is directly responsible for the murder of the Somali nun. He has a responsibility to protect his people. He has to be aware of the blowback of his actions. If you insult the prohpet, there is a chance Muslims will murder one of your associates. Especially if you are a member of the clergy of a different religion.

[Tempest]

4. I'd like to know what Pell thinks about the Army of God

Someone really needs to educate that ignorant pissant.

[saigon68]

5. Impossible

[acmavm]

6. Boy, Catholics are really trying to stir up the shit here lately.

I am (was) Catholic so don't climb up my ass for commenting on the obvious.

[IndianaGreen]

110. As long as they are too busy to take notice of LGBTs

the crusading jihadists can kill each other for all I care.

I am not surprised that the two most homophobic and misogynist fundamentalist religious groups are arguing as to which of them is the "one true faith."

Thankfully there are millions of Christians and Muslims that are guided by reason, not irrational dogma.

[xchrom]

7. it just doesn't stop -- the stupid trying to sound intelligent.

i think the catholic church should start setting it's intellectual standards a little higher.

[Truthiness Inspector]

9. Sorry

but all he did was state the truth of what happened in response to the Pope's comments. He is NOT calling for "death to Muslims" or "death to Islamic nations."

Nobody has to like what he or the Pope said, or agree with it, but nobody has the right to commit violence because of free speech.

[lumpy]

21. What does Pell mean by stating ?:

"They showed the link for many Islamists between religion and violence, their refusal to respond to criticism with rational arguments, but only with demonstrations, threats and actual violence,” the Sydney Archbishop said yesterday.

By saying this, Pell is clearly linking Islam with violence. He should have chosen his words more carefully. The impression is given by him, that Islam is a religion of violence. This has been expressed by many people from the pulpit, so to speak, and is just adding more fuel to the fire.

[toopers]

70. Actually, the muslims linked violence to islam . . .

all by themselves. The cardinal stated the obvious.

[FredScuttle]

97. ALL muslims?

or SOME?

The cardinal seems to be painting with a pretty broad brush. I guess the lesson is hard-learned.

[toopers]

141. The silence is deafening . . .

when the "peaceful" members of the religion do not condemn the violence, especially after all the violence that has been inflicted, then you begin to wonder how much the "peaceful" muslims disagree with the violent muslims?

[FredScuttle]

143. Silence?

http://www.kron4.com/Global/story.asp?S=5419467

When you willfully ignore the attempts by the world's Muslims to condemn violence, it's no surprise you think that Muslims support the violent reactions.

Besides, if I were a Muslim, my priority list would be topped by asking the world's leading Christian to apologize for defaming my prophet.

[toopers]

147. The only violence they condemn with any vigor and clarity . . .

is when they are on the receiving end of an ass kicking (usually, well deserved ass kicking). In comparison to the muslim Imams, the religious leaders of the other sects are not nearly as vocal, and rarely say anything against Muslims.

There is only one religion that has a relationship with the Pope. When was the last time a catholic killed in defense of catholicism? Unfortunately, more muslims have been killed in the name of Allah than by any other means. Muslims are involved in more hot wars than any other religion. Unfortunately, muslims do more to perpetuate their violent image than they do to stop it.

I am open to change. Please show me the overwhelming muslim condemnations of violence (against non muslims) to which you are referring.

[Name removed]

10. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FredScuttle]

19. Damn those Muslims for falling into the "piss on your face" trap

1) I announce that you are prone to being irrational and violent
2) I piss on your face without provocation
3) You react violently towards me for pissing on your face
4) I exclaim "Aha! See! I was right!"

now, I won't get into the Christian abortion clinic bombers and assassins because, well....Muslims are violent!

[LynnTheDem]

25. Exactly...well said! And not to mention billions of people lumped

as "violent" and "evil" because of a handful of lunatics. Of course only Muslims have lunatics.

Like the Muslim leaders who invade nations that had been doing nothing whatsoever to anyone, slaughtering tens of thousands of men, women and babies.

Or the Muslim leaders who dropped nukes on civilians, knowing they were nothing but civilians.

Damn them violent Muslims.

:eyes:

Racism & bigotry; it even affects so-called "liberals".

[lumpy]

22. Really it is better to say that SOME

Muslims around the world did react..with violence.

[cyberpj]

14. Aiding and Abetting Bush's desire for Holy War - Get ready. nt

[oasis]

35. Fear of "islamo-fascist terrorists" will keep them all in power and keep

the sheeple in church.

[LynnTheDem]

16. Yep, the Spanish Inquisition showed how evil them Muslims are!

And everyone knows no "christian" has EVER killed a nun! NEVER EVER!

Geebus fucking Cripes. The christofascists get more ignorant by the day.

[VegasWolf]

18. I've heard enough about religion of any stripe to be thoroughly disgusted.

[LynnTheDem]

27. Amen to that!

[VegasWolf]

31. Pass the rattlesnake, Hallelujah!! nt

[Name removed]

37. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[FredScuttle]

48. Ever hear of a self-fulfilling prophecy?

n/t

[JVS]

51. I don't remember the Knights of Columbus going fucking apeshit...

when people from the Nation of Islam called JPII a "no-good cracker"

[barb162]

54. Neither do I.

Nor do I remember Catholics demonstrating in the streets, burning cars, etc., over it.

[JVS]

55. Which is a good thing, because those activities are unacceptable...

responses to being offended.

[FredScuttle]

57. But won't stop prominent Christians from fucking with the bull

and getting the horns.

At what point does Benedict and the church hierarchy realize it probably wasn't the wisest of choices to inflame an already antagonized Muslim community? This "apology" will go about as far as Dumbya's declaration of "Mission Accomplished"

[barb162]

Hey, I want an apology from the imams and mullahs preaching

hate against the West, Christianity and Judaism for the last several years. Think I will get one?

[FredScuttle]

65. Two wrongs make a right?

you must be playing in the same grade school sandbox as Benedict.

[LordLovesAWorkingMan]

68. Oh wait, but

"fuck with the bull, get the horns" is a legitimate admonishment in our 21st century world?

Gotcha.

[FredScuttle]

96. Benedict is finding that out right now

or, should I say, his followers are finding that out. Catholics around the world are in danger now because that prick couldn't help insulting a prophet.

I'm not advocating it, but merely stating the reality of the situation.

[JVS]

116. !

:rofl:

[barb162]

69. You must be playing on the kindergarten swings.

What the hell does the two wrongs bit have to do with this? The Moslems are upset about what the Pope said? BFD. SO a nun who worked at a charity hospital is actually killed and there are demonstrations by them? That's okay? No. Their imams and mullahs have been preaching hate for decades and now they are SOOOOOOO sensitive about it. The violent reaction by these extremist Moslem factions is totally indefensible. The Pope is not the issue; the violent Moslem extremists are the issue.

[FredScuttle]

79. BFD

That's precisely the kind of attitude that's fanning this conflagration. That and "their imams and mullahs have been preaching hate for decades". Gee, not too much of a generalization there, eh? Have you ever talked to a imam? Discussed interfaith conflict with a Muslim?

No one is defending the violence committed by Muslims, but there seems to be a whole lot of passive defense of Benedict's original remarks. You seem to have no understanding of how much of an insult Benedict's remarks were or how powerful it was to have a person of his stature delivering them.

But do go on playing the good Christian victim. It's so appealing. :sarcasm:

[treestar]

88. Where did you find out what "their imams" have been preaching,

Fox News? That is such a generalization. You have millions of people spread out over several countries and make sweeping generalizations.

[John Gauger]

101. So you admit that the Pope is no better than they

and that we should not expect better behavior from him. Sounds about right to me.

[JVS]

60. So you think that people who go apeshit should be accomodated?

If the Democratic party takes your stance towards those who would strip us of all our civil liberties, they'll all be gone.

Let's stop promoting abortion rights, it angers some people.

Let's stop criticizing the war in Iraq, it makes some people mad.

Let's not bring up civil rights, it alienates racists.

People have the right to say and believe whatever they want, including the Pope.

Just as we have the right to say that the Pope is wrong, stupid, evil or whatever we want to say.

But people don't have the right to go around killing and burning because they're pissed. And FUCK whoever does go around killing and burning because they're too much of a turd to deal with what people said.

[FredScuttle]

63. Did I say that?

I must have missed the post where I approved of the violent response to Benedict's insult.

I also don't approve of vicious dog attacks...I also don't go around swatting pit bulls on the snout either.

[JVS]

66. Your mess with the bulls and get the horns metaphor said that

You think the unacceptable responses should stop people from saying such things. Things that were said in criticism of such unacceptable responses. You advocate just being silent on the issue.

[FredScuttle]

89. Are you kidding me?

"Things that were said in criticism of such unacceptable responses"?? Did read what Benedict said? I quote:

"Show me just what Muhammad brought that was new and there you will find things only evil and inhuman, such as his command to spread by the sword the faith he preached" - he was quoting Manuel II and did not say this was his own opinion, but he certainly didn't say it wasn't.

Then, to add to the silly little word games, this asshole's "apology" is right up there with Senator Allen's "Gee, I'm sorry that people got so upset.."

For the spiritual leader of the world's Catholics to play a fucking game with insulting the prophet Muhammed is either incredibly ignorant or incredibly evil. And I think the Pope is an intelligent man.

[DemExpat]

64. My view as well.

Political Islam needs to be confronted, challenged, and brought into the debate/negotiation ring - the way they are responding to any criticism or negativity with threats and violence is starting to be ludicrous and extremely dangerous for anybody's ability to speak their mind.

DemEx

[FredScuttle]

93. speak their mind? Or insult the prophet of over a billion Muslims?

n/t

[Dutch]

129. So the degree to which you are allowed to speak your mind

is directly connected to the number of people you are at risk of offending? So where is the point at which free speech must be curtailed to prevent such blasphemy? I mean, if I insult Hitler I'm gonna offend hundreds of thousands, perhaps millions of neo-nazis around the world (and no, I'm not comparing Muslims to Nazis or Muhammad to Hitler)- must I be silenced to protect their sensibilities? Or do religious groups get special legal privileges above the mere ungodly? Or is it really an issue of how fanatical or violent the insulted group is willing to become in response to people expressing opinions which happen to be critical of them and their ideologues?

[FredScuttle]

144. I mentioned the "billion" to give a sense of scope

No one is saying Benedict can't defame and insult the prophet Muhammed in a speech. My point is did a man in his position really need to include that insult in what was otherwise a reasonable statement against violence in the name of religion? The comparison of you insulting Hitler is a poor analogy because the billions of Christians in the world don't hang on your every word.

This "outrage over outrage" is plainly ridiculous...the leading Christian in the world insults the prophet of a billion people and you're upset they're upset? How about try not insulting another faith once in a while?

[DemExpat]

145. Not the point - freedom to insult any religion should be protected

at all cost IMO.

It is the ridiculous, violent and threatening RESPONSE to insult from some sources which is the very serious problem here for all of us living in a fairly democratic world with some right of speaking one's mind.

All people are going to bash others in defiance, protest, opposition, anger, satire. jokes - we all do it - and people do not need to fear for their lives because of this.

It doesn't matter whether I agree or not either with an insult - we can't have other people demanding by violent threats deciding what is acceptable or not in our society.


DemEx

[FredScuttle]

146. Ah, but what kind of world DO we live in?

We don't live in a insulated Christian bubble (though the GOP would love that). The entire world doesn't subscribe to our ethic of free speech for all and insults aplenty. We share this world with Muslims....and Buddhists, Jews, Hindus, etc. It's incumbent upon us to treat our global neighbors with respect and courtesy. When we don't, we have to accept the consequences of our actions. We know full well that there are extreme factions of Islam (just as in most other faiths) that will react violently to any insult to their faith. You and I can insult religion in general and faiths in specific as much as we want because - what's our audience? A few folks on an internet chat board? Benedict put a lot of people's lives in danger with his recklessness and he should be called on it.

Just because you can do something doesn't always mean you should do it.

[John Gauger]

102. He/she didn't say we should not offend anybody,

he/she said that the Pope has a responsibility to take care that his actions don't result in the deaths of his underlings. Kind of like the President going off to war. It doesn't make what the terrorists do okay, but it is Bush's fault that U.S. soldiers are dying.

[JVS]

111. If I kill someone because of something someone said it's MY fault

Now apply that statement to the fanatics who are killing people.

The Pope has caused people to be offended, but it is the decisions of those who were offended that have caused deaths.

[barb162]

59. It's so incredibly obvious, isn't it? Sometimes I wonder why

there's so much attempt around here at minimizing violent over-reactions?

[FredScuttle]

94. Why is there so much of an attempt to defend religious bigotry?

hmm?

[INDIA]

98. Find any thread on DU about Christian fundamentalists

and you will see some of the worst religious bigotry. It's a friggin bigotry party, and nobody jumps to their defense. What did the fundies ever do that's worse than Islamic fundamentalists................oh yeah they voted Bush.

Voting Bush and opposing abortion are just as evil as cutting off heads and blowing up buildings......at least here on DU.

What Christian fundies do is misguided, wrong, and opposes my political beliefs. What Islamic fundies do is violent, despicable and evil.

[FredScuttle]

117. What did Christian fundies ever do?

Well, one fundie by the name of James Kopp killed a good man in Buffalo NY in October 1998...Dr. Barnett Slepian was shot in cold blood to quench a fundamentalist's manic fear.



http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_Kopp

Murder committed in the name of religion is despicable no matter which faith we're talking about. Neither faith has clean hands as far as I'm concerned.

[INDIA]

119. I don't doubt your assertion

but comparing the two parties as equals on the same plane of evil doesn't make sense to me.

For every example you list above, probably 1000 acts are committed from the Islamic fundamentalists.

Yes neither faith has clean hands, but the dirt on the hands of the Islamic side is a HELL of a lot more recent and pressing relating to current events. Yet here, they are equal, with the Christian fundamentalists maybe being even worse.

Compare the number of replies to different threads sometime.

The "Jesus Camp" thread was on fire and full of anti christian bigotry. Hey, I think those people are crazy too, but I don't think they deserve to be compared to terrorists and the taliban.

But whenever an Islamic terrorist blows up a few people at a marketplace in Iraq, it gets a couple replies and dies.

Look at the Israel/Lebanon conflict. Israel killed approximately 1000 people during the war, many of them innocent. There were dozens of threads about it were absolutely spewing venom toward Israel.

3 TIMES as many innocent people are killed by terrorists in Iraq EVERY MONTH, yet you won't see 1/10th the hatred toward the Iraqi insurgents as you will toward Israelis. WHY? Because it's all about who is friends with *. Terrorists are Bush's enemy=free pass. Israel is Bush ally=Defcon 5 whenever they kill innocents. It's a double standard. And I'm not saying that Israel didn't deserve some of the disdain that it received here, I'd just like to see the same venom spewed toward the other guilty party, regardless of their animosity toward the current * regime.

[FredScuttle]

122. Ask yourself which is the dominant faith in this country

and you'll have your answer.

Extremist violence committed in the name of religion is evil, regardless of the casualty scoreboard.

And, by the way, terrorists are our enemy too, not just *'s

[goforit]

53. These Catholic men are Satan worshipers! May they be damned! Unholy!

[SOS]

58. The world could use more Buddhists and Taoists

The Vietnam conflict killed 2-3 million Vietnamese, yet since 1975 there has been reconciliation and forgiveness.
The "People of the Book" could learn some lessons from that.
But they won't.

[endarkenment]

72. Japanese Buddhists slaughtered millions across asia.

Nobody gets off the hook when it comes to using religion as a rational for slaughter.

[SOS]

75. The suppression of Buddhism

was integral to the rise of militaristic state power.

"In 1868, under the rule of Emperor Meiji, Shintoism was established as the state mandated religion of Japan in an effort known as the Meiji Restoration. Nearly all the Shinto priests and shrines came under the political and financial control of the Japanese government and the other "foreign" religions were suppressed. The Council of State ordered the removal of Buddhist statues, images, and implements from Shinto shrines, and the renaming of those shrines which had been given Buddhist names. All of the Japanese people were expected to accept the Emperor as a descendent of the gods and that the Japanese people as a whole were superior."

"The grip of the government during the Second World War over Buddhist institutions was rigid, and any writings in which Buddhism was placed above the authority of the state or the emperor were suppressed. The only opposition to this came from the Soka-gakkai and they were severely persecuted. Since the end of the war, Buddhism in Japan has once again revived."

Buddhism was not used as the rational for slaughter.

[endarkenment]

81. Sorry to disagree with you

"As for the Soto Zen sect, little has changed since its groundbreaking admission of war responsibility in a January 1993 statement of repentance, introduced in chapter 10. Although a handful of Soto Zen—related scholars have continued to pursue this issue, notably Hakamaya Noriaki and Matsumoto Shiro of Komazawa University, their research has focused on highly contentious doctrinal issues having little effect on the sect as a whole. Nevertheless, in December 2005 Tanaka Shinkai, abbot of the Soto Zen monastery of Flokyoji in Fukui prefecture, praised Zen at War as being like a graphic depiction of the carnage at the scene of a horrendous car accident. “If we hope to prevent its reoccurrence:’ he stated, “we must not flinch from exploring just how and why this accident occurred:’ Tanaka went on to pledge that his temple, itself founded by a Chinese monk in the 13th century, would henceforth hold unprecedented memorial services for the victims of Japanese militarism."

http://www.wisdom-books.com/ProductExtract.asp?CatNumber=7386

" It is enough to say here that Zen At War describes the unerring and uncritical Buddhist support of Japanese militarism, colonialism and racism from the Meiji Restoration in 1868 to the end of the Second World War. Zen masters twisted and perverted the teachings of the Buddha in an outrageous manner to spur on the blood-baths of the Sino-Japanese War (1894-95), the Russo-Japanese War (1905-05), the colonisation of Korea, Manchuria and Taiwan and ultimately the disaster that was the Pacific war which ended with nuclear annhilation in 1945. It should be pointed out that it was not just Zen Buddhism that supported the imperial designs of the Japanese military, but all Buddhist and Shinto groups throughout Japan gave unswerving and uncritical support to the militaristic ambitions of the nation. Furthermore, it took the Soto sect over forty years to issue an apology for its actions. The Rinzai sect has steadfastly refused to face up to its complicity in the deaths of millions. Today imperial-way Zen, soldier Zen and imperial-state Zen is being transformed into ‘corporate Zen’ as a “way of restoring the traditional values of discipline, obedience, and loyalty to superiors.”(p. 182) The abuse of the Dharma continues. "

http://www.thezensite.com/ZenBookReviews/ZenAtWar_Vlad.htm

[6000eliot]

74. Why deliberately inflame an already volatile situation,

unless you secretly wish for more violence?

[John Gauger]

103. Or are just a moran. NT.

[maxsolomon]

76. painted on a wall in Shiite N. Lebanon:

"America is God's Enemy". In last weeks' NYT magazine.

how did that sentiment, believed by millions of Muslims across the globe, and intricately tied to Islam, come to be?

Its a religious war to much of Islam, and it is stateless.

The problem is, its Islam vs. "Godless Secularism", but Christians think they're being attacked. Could there be some sort of instrinsic paranoia associated with monotheism?

[Name removed]

77. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

91. The Protestants had a more effective policy in the New World.

Kill them all or move them out.

Alas for the Gentle Aztecs!

[INDIA]

100. Speaking as someone living in modern times...

Maybe after 100 years or so its time to forgive? I'm more concerned with who's killing who today and tomorrow. I'm of Scottish heritage, should I hate the English??? I'm American, should I hate Germans and Japanese and Vietnamese??? Nope, it's done with and in the past. If Christians were still killing NA's, then I'd understand your anger.

[John Gauger]

105. Chrisitians are still killing them

through social and economic inequility. I know we are talking about direct violence here, but you can't discount the plight that the Indians are in because of our government right now.

[INDIA]

107. Yes and No.

They're in a rough spot as a people in general, and the US gov of old has a lot of blood on their hands, but the modern gov has also taken some pretty far reaching steps to help them out too. Immunity from sales taxes on reservations and the right to build casinos has been a serious economic boom, unfortunately some NA's are happy to screw their fellow tribesmen over so only a few get rich instead of the entire tribe. Also, if you're a NA who graduates high school, you can almost certainly find a school that will take you on a full ride to fulfill diversity requirements. If I was Native American with my grades and SAT's, I'd be Ivy League without any tuition. You could major in finger painting at Harvard and still make an absurd salary upon graduation.

What was this thread about again??:)

[John Gauger]

104. It is important that you mention such things

The crimes against the Indians are apparently something we had all forgotten in this discussion. I feel that usually the plight of the Indians brings the situation into more focus, regardless of what is being discussed.

[Name removed]

108. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[JVS]

112. "HOORAY! Double Standards for everyone!"

Don't you realize that double standards can only be for some? ;-) That's why they're double standards.

[muriel_volestrangler]

126. Those remarks were aimed at Cardinal Pell

Because they clearly talk about his remarks in the original news story. And they'd be allowed to stand if aimed at a prominent Muslim in the news. Ahmadinejad gets insulted here all the time. It isn't a double standard.

[IndianaGreen]

109. Marx was right about religion being the drug of choice of the masses

and they are willing to kill their neighbor to protect their stash.

[JVS]

113. Actually, I believe Marx dropped the ball on that opiates call

Opiates seem to relax people. The current situation seems more similar to people on PCP.

[bleedingheart]

131. and that "drug" makes them even more delusional than if they

were taking real drugs......

[Name removed]

114. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

118. Another Asshole Stirring the Shit

One question... will this "Cardinal, George Pell" have to put his life on the line if there is a WWIII. Just wondering...

[leesa]

121. Christianity, violence go hand in hand. What's your point?

[clyrc]

124. I live in a Muslim country. I've lived here 3 years.

I have many, many friends and neighbors who are peace loving, reasonable Muslims. Every time I see ignorant people saying stupid things about Islam, it makes me furious. Take it from someone who knows, ISLAM DOES NOT GO HAND IN HAND WITH VIOLENCE!

[bdamomma]

134. thank you.

[eagler]

148. It's up to Muslims to change their own image

and it's up to us to make sure that their efforts are noticed.

[Solon]

149. Why the hell should they?

You have some poor smuck in Indonesia, or the US, whatever, happens to be Muslim, what the fuck do you expect him to do, say sorry for the actions of some asshole he never met, he thinks is an asshole himself, and just happens to also be a Muslim?

What's next, Cambodian Hindus apologizing for those crazy assed mobs that sweep through Muslim neighborhoods in India at least once a year, killing hundreds a pop? What about Chinese Buddhists apologizing for the intercene violence in Sri Lanka, does that sound good to you?

Ask for IMPOSSIBLE conditions, and you ALWAYS get the result you want, a classic example of bigotry. I guess you want African Americans to apologize for crime in America next, is that it?

[bhikkhu]

125. Humanity and violence go hand in hand

there is no need to invoke Islam, Jesus, Jehovah, etc, to start a war. Motives vary from person to person. It is a fact that individuals who would otherwise hesitate to march to war are inspired by the promises of religion. Other individuals are inspired by promises of wealth, others national glory, others will simply "follow the leader", lacking any other mental training.

I don't mean to invoke a hopeless Hobbesian vision of history and current times, but arguing motives and characters of various people, and claiming the exceptional evil of one group and the exceptional goodness of another furthers no point at all, except endless war. Its been done before, and is still being done.

[Andrushka]

132. And you all thought

us Aussies all liked to throw a shrimp on the barbie!

Well some of us do. But others love nothing better than to throw a big ol' bloody can of petrol on it, right your Rightwingnutteryworship?

:puke: Nothing surprising here. Pell has long made no secret he has no interest in maintaining good relations with Muslims. Look up his comments from years past and I am sure you can find more.

(on edit: spelling)

[treestar]

133. World leaders with flawed logic

It only proves it for those individuals. It is ridiculous to attribute the acts of only the few to the entire religion. And a focus on the negative, since you could attribute the acts of the really good people to the whole religion.

[cosmicdot]

150. Cardinal, any idea the number of French Huguenots killed?

They didn't die at the hand of Muslims.


started about 1562 ... ring any bells? ... my ancestor departed c. 1697

St. Bartholomew's Day Massacre in 1572

...the streets and ways did resound with the noise of those that flocked to the slaughter and plunder, and the complaints and doleful out-cries of dying men, and those that were nigh to danger were every where heard. The carkasses of the slain were thrown down from the windows, the Courts & chambers of houses were full of dead men, their dead bodies rolled in dirt were dragged through the streets, bloud did flow in such abundance through the chanels of the streets, that full streams of bloud did run down into the River: the number of the slain men, women, even those that were great with child, and children also, was innumerable. - Jacques-Auguste de Thou's History of the Bloody Massacres of the Protestants in France in the year of our Lord, 1572 (London, 1674).

"When news of this holocaust of French Protestants reached the world, Catherine de' Medici received the congratulations of all the Catholic powers, and Pope Gregory XIII ordered bonfires lighted and the singing of the Te Deum. Indeed, the Pope's joy was so great that he commanded a gold medal to be minted, with the inscription, Slaughter of the Huguenots. He then had Giorgio Vasari paint pictures in the Vatican of the glorious triumph over a perfidious race.

http://www.ronaldbrucemeyer.com/rants/0824almanac.htm

"Despite such reverses, the Protestant forces in France continued to grow in influence and secured almost full freedom of religion through the Edict of Nantes (1598). By this time the Huguenots claimed much of their support from middle-class businesspeople and craftsmen — the backbone of the French economy.

"The tide shifted against the Protestants during the reigns of Kings Louis XIII and Louis XIV, when Roman Catholicism was in the ascendant. In 1685, the Edict of Nantes was revoked, which removed the religious safeguards enjoyed by the Huguenots. What followed was the almost total evacuation of the Huguenot population, leaving France solidly Roman Catholic, but lacking many of its most productive citizens."

http://www.u-s-history.com/pages/h609.html

"Chief of state Richelieu, whose obsession was the unification of all aspects of French society into a form approved by Paris, eventually suppressed or destroyed Huguenot communities throughout France. The bloodiest of these skirmishes was in the Atlantic coast port of La Rochelle, but also destroyed were the Provençal strongholds at Uzès and Les Baux. The holocaust continued until the French Revolution. Many Huguenots who did not find their death in local prisons or execution on the wheel of torture, were shipped to sea to serve their sentences as galley slaves. They were chained down to row galley slave ships which were not part of the French Navy (the French Navy was mostly Huguenot). The mortality rate was frightful."

http://bellsouthpwp.net/r/_/r_timmon/huguenot.htm


I'm 9th generation French Huguenot-American because my ancestor got his ass out of France. France's loss.

Young Tom Jefferson and George Washington had Huguenot tutors who just might have helped to season their minds with ideas about freedom, liberty, justice, etc.

At any rate, Cardinal, that's the good news.

The bad news is my ancestor left France to escape tyranny only to find 306 years later (landed in Jamestown on September 20, 1700) that his descendants are now back living under tyranny.

[goodboy]

151. Unlike the Christian crusaders and witchhunters who tortured and murdered

many hundreds of thousands of innocent people in the name of God,