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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:05 AM
Original message
Vietnam-era Marine deserter caught (and arrested) at border
PHOENIX (Reuters) - U.S. border agents arrested a Marine deserter wanted for the last 40 years as he drove into California from Mexico, the Customs and Border Protection agency said on Friday.

Officers checking 63-year-old Victor Aguirre's car and papers at the busy San Ysidro border crossing near San Diego discovered there was a felony warrant issued by the Marines outstanding against him since 1966, during the Vietnam War.

Aguirre would likely be taken to Camp Pendleton, a Marine base north of San Diego, and be discharged without facing formal charges, the San Diego Union-Tribune quoted a Marine spokesman as saying.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060916/us_nm/crime_deserter_dc
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azurnoir Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:10 AM
Response to Original message
1. Statute of limitations?
it has been 40 years.
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FILAM23 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 12:36 PM
Response to Reply #1
25. There is no statue of limitations
on desertion
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:11 AM
Response to Original message
2. At a certain point you have to let bygones be bygones
He deserted his post from a war the US never should have been involved in. He's not a Nazi war criminal.
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w4rma Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:14 AM
Response to Original message
3. Didn't President Carter pardon everyone who wouldn't fight in Vietnam?(nt)
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larrysh Donating Member (181 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:20 AM
Response to Reply #3
4. Desertion....different from draft dodging, shoud never be forgiven
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bperci108 Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:43 AM
Response to Reply #4
5. Why?
And please be specific.
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 04:44 AM
Response to Reply #5
30. Okay, I'll take a stab at it.
However, before I do this, I want it to be made clear that I don't necessarily support this point of view. I've spent a lot of time studying military history, though, so maybe I have some useful insight as to why some people would hold desertion to be a very high and even unforgivable crime. I'm going to skip entirely the ethics of fighting in general and assume that once someone is inducted that person is cognizant of the duty he has to his fellow soldiers, to his unit, his armed force, and his country. If you want to argue from that point of view, I can't help you--but please note that I'm not writing this from some godforsaken bunker in a combat zone.

Also, I want to apologize in advance to France and the French people. For some reason as I'm sorting all this out in my mind, all of the best examples I can think of happen to be of French debacles. Believe me, there are plenty of examples everywhere--including the entire American Civil War, where the various kinds of rampant desertion had to be quantified in order to avoid having to imprison or execute a large proportion of both armed forces (the ones considered least repugnant were styled "stragglers"). George Washington was inspired to his greatest feats of field command because a large proportion of his army was threatening to leave the field and go home--legally, as it was, but it's still a form of desertion as well. But those examples are too complicated for me to cite below.

Desertion creates problems on many levels, but the level probably most worried about is the effect it has on unit cohesion--an extremely important concept in warfare which I won't have time to define beyond "the unit does what it's supposed to do." Desertion cuts to the very heart of unit cohesion. "Pardon one offense and you encourage the commission of many," was an observation made by someone important whom I can't recall, and history shows the observation to be quite true. So when someone deserts, you have to go find that person, or risk having others think they can get away with the same thing. Actually, it's not a risk, it's a guarantee that others will do it, as the American Civil War clearly shows.

Desertion creates a drain on manpower (beyond just the missing person, you must also include the other people who are going to have to go find that person, the people you have to set up to guard against others doing the same, the bureaucrats who have to monitor the rate of desertion, and so on), it's a drain on unit morale, it damages discipline, and that combination of factors in turn damages unit readiness and ultimately, unit cohesion.

A unit suffering from poor cohesion is certain to get other, better units in trouble, and is also certain to get dutifully serving soldiers killed, both in the unit with poor cohesion and those unlucky enough to be next to them (because when the enemy exploits the poor cohesion of the offending unit, the good units next to it will be attacked unexpectedly in flank).

The offense is hugely compounded when it's desertion in the face of the enemy, as in just before or during actual combat. This guy in the article probably didn't do that, but the poster above may have been thinking about desertion in the face of the enemy as opposed to mere cut-and-run desertion before shipping out. Both are a pain in the ass, but in my opinion one is far, far more reprehensible than the other.

Which brings us to the French as examples of how desertion causes disaster:

* During the early days of the French Revolution, regiments got the bright idea that they could elect their own officers. Then, when it came time to fight, some got the idea of unelecting officers who wanted to place those units in the midst of combat. Some units actually voted to desert en masse, and marched off the field. That in turn left gaps in the French line, which led to the deaths of dutifully serving French troops and several defeats which threatened the existence of the fledgling French democracy. One might even argue that the disciplinary backlash which followed provided the chance for Napoleon to destroy French democracy entirely, though fortunately only temporarily.

* The French Mutiny of 1917, a direct result of the idiotic and horribly bloody Nivelle Offensives, may or may not have caused more deaths. It may have prolonged the war (highly debateable), but it also may have saved lives by forcing the French generals to refine their tactics and limit their objectives. I give it only as an example of one of the largest threatened desertions I know of. One important observation: the mutiny didn't stop the war at all, but it certainly damaged the ability of the French to end the war that year, either by victory or by defeat.

* During the evacuation at Dunkirk in 1940, French troops fought gallantly against overwhelming odds to hold off attacking German troops, which allowed the BEF to escape partially intact. The survival of the British Expeditionary Force allowed Britain to continue the war and ultimately to ensure the downfall of the Nazis. However, many of the French troops deserted, while deserters from elsewhere converged upon the Dunkirk lines, and hid within the perimeter. When it came time for the French rearguard to make its own escape, a roughly equal number of deserters descended upon the evacuation fleet, taking up all the available space on the evacuation boats and leaving the dutifully serving French troops to die or be captured. The shitty troops thus escaped to cause problems for the remainder of the war; the good troops were taken out of the war entirely.

* By the conclusion of Dien Bien Phu, it is believed that one out of two French soldiers in the field were deserters, living in the no-man's land between the Viet Minh and the dutifully serving French troops. The deserters often got to airdropped supplies before the non-deserters did, denying supplies to the real defenders and, as it turned out, ensuring the deaths of virtually all of them.

As these examples show, desertion very often gets other people killed, and leaves those who serve honorably to suffer the consequences created by those who flee dishonorably. Therefore, it's easy for me to understand why some people would equate desertion with other deadly crimes such as manslaughter and negligent homicide, or even murder. If I explained it correctly, perhaps you too can understand a little better why desertion is so frowned upon. If everyone, everywhere got up at the same time and went home, the world would be a better place. But it hasn't happened yet, ever.
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LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:37 AM
Response to Reply #5
31. Yes, why?
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HarukaTheTrophyWife Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 03:13 AM
Response to Reply #4
9. Even if it was an unjust war?
Even if el pretzeldente went AWOL?

Seriously, it has been 40 years. I think the statute of limitations should apply here.
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whiterabbit76 Donating Member (60 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 03:27 AM
Response to Reply #4
10. why not?
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FILAM23 Donating Member (344 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 12:35 PM
Response to Reply #4
24. Agree
n/t
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happydreams Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 05:20 PM
Response to Reply #4
26. Let me guess: You were never in the military, right?
Edited on Sat Sep-16-06 05:21 PM by happydreams
You have that vengeful streak so common in chickenhawks.
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saigon68 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:25 PM
Response to Reply #4
34. See Ya Larry------ my take ----- "FIGHT THE RICH NOT THEIR WARS"
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bluestateguy Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 11:47 AM
Response to Reply #3
21. Draft dodgers yes. Deserters had to apply for a presidential pardon.
A draft dodger is a civilian. A deserter is someone who is in the military.
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 06:43 PM
Response to Reply #21
28. It's a warning to troops in Iraq against deserting
http://www.answers.com/topic/vietnam-war

Johnson used this resolution to justify military escalation

in the absence of a congressional declaration of war.


----------------------------------------

http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-07-deserter-side_x.htm

Decades later, Marines hunt Vietnam-era deserters

By Bill Nichols, USA TODAY

WASHINGTON —

In the summer of 1965, Marine Cpl. Jerry Texiero quietly disappeared from his California
base, plagued by personal demons and a mounting opposition to the Vietnam War.

Forty years later, in the summer of 2005, Texiero — now known as Gerome Conti — was taken
into custody by police in Tarpon Springs, Fla., after the Marine Corps tracked him down.

snip-->

In 1974, President Ford offered clemency to Vietnam draft resisters and deserters.
Only 27,000 of 350,000 eligible applied. The offer expired on April 1, 1975.

In 1977, President Carter pardoned those who dodged the war by not registering
or fleeing the country.

snip-->

Thirty years after the war ended, hundreds of Vietnam-era deserters are still on the loose.
Conti's attorneys, Louis Font and Tod Ensign, say the Pentagon, and the Marine Corps
in particular, are cracking down on long-term cases in an effort to warn current-day
troops in Iraq against deserting.


"My view is that the Marines are trying to send a message to people in the ranks today
that they, too, will be required to participate in a war, whether they think it's illegal
or immoral," Font says.

(Related story: 8,000 desert during Iraq war)
http://www.usatoday.com/news/washington/2006-03-07-deserters_x.htm

Marine spokesman Capt. Jay Delarosa says there was nothing unusual about the treatment of Conti.

However, the Marine official in charge of bringing in deserters said after Conti's arrest
that his office was being more aggressive.


Conti, 65, says he was surprised.
"I thought they couldn't possibly be looking for me anymore. I would think
they would have stopped looking for anybody who had been gone as long as I had."

Conti was held for five months — four in solitary confinement — then given an
other-than-honorable discharge in January. If he had been court-martialed and
convicted, he could have faced three years in the brig and a dishonorable discharge.






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bperci108 Donating Member (969 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 11:22 PM
Response to Reply #21
35. So what?
A service member takes an oath to preserve, protect and defend the Constitution not to blindly serve a criminal regime in it's quest for empire.

There have always been refuseniks of one sort or another. I say bravo for them.

No war but class war. :evilgrin:
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 02:59 AM
Response to Original message
6. and W was AWOL -- just didn't show up for last months of Natnl Guard duty
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zanne Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 08:56 AM
Response to Reply #6
16. I forget...
There's so much BS coming out of the White House, it's hard to get it all straight. How did George Bush get out of that situation during the presidential campaign of 04'? I know the Swiftboaters tried to do in John Kerry, but what was their explanation for Bush's absence during his National Guard days?
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 06:31 PM
Response to Reply #16
32. there was a mess with DRather's show about that
It was claimed that one letter was fake, although RW bloggers were saying that before the show was over.

In the hoopla over the attack on Rather and CBS the missing Natnl Guard service was (surprise, surprise!!!) 'forgotten.'

So essentially the M$M acted as if there was no story, the story had already been investigated in 2000 (NO WAY, see the tabletalk at salon.com discussion of the AWOL story. Marty Heldt started investigating in the summer of 2000; he has a blog with the info---the address is in the intro to the discussion after his name.)

Basically W has NEVER been forced to answer questions about this.
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BrotherBuzz Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sun Sep-17-06 08:18 PM
Response to Reply #16
33. George Bush* was issues an Honorable Discharge
Any accusations about his being AWOL became a moot subject at that point. The incident would not be addressed or entertained by Bushco beyond stating he was issued his honorable discharge document, implying a person can not be issued one if they were AWOL. It was a nondenial denial, just like his drinking or drug use. End of story. :shrug:
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bobbieinok Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 03:00 AM
Response to Original message
7. and W was AWOL --- didn't show up for last months of Natnl Guard duty
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NiteOwll Donating Member (148 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 03:05 AM
Response to Original message
8. Now that they caught him
Are they sending him to Iraq?
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JohnnyRingo Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 05:08 AM
Response to Original message
11. And now we can rest tonight...
Knowing that what must be the nation's oldest dissenter of the Great Asian Vacation has been brought to justice and our country is, once again, safe.

This will undoubtably send a message to those neo-hippies who consider avoiding current service that flight is futile. The US govt will hunt them down even if it takes a generation.

I expect they'll nab Osama about the time we set foot on Mars.
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DoYouEverWonder Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 05:12 AM
Response to Original message
12. Bush was deserter
Why haven't they arrested him?

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Zorra Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 08:54 AM
Response to Reply #12
15. Because he's a rich, privileged frat-boy from a good fascist family
of traitors and war profiteers.

Laws in 21st century America are now only in effect to protect people like B u*h from the peasants, and to make sure that the peasants continue to provide labor, profit, and cannon fodder for people like Bu*h.
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 05:32 AM
Response to Original message
13. What does Bush's desertion have to do with this guy's broken pledge
to his country. It's a slap in the face to everyone that ever served. I don't think he should get hard time. But six months suspended sentence and 1000 hours community service sounds about right.
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IndianaGreen Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 08:57 AM
Response to Reply #13
17. Vietnam was a mistake, and you want to punish someone for not being a fool
We are facing the same situation in Iraq now.

I applaud every soldier that chooses not to serve in that war!
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leesa Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 11:01 AM
Response to Reply #13
18. Bush broke a pledge too and hasn't had to do anything about it.
Why not? Why is his desertion different?
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zonkers Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 11:33 AM
Response to Reply #18
20. It's not. IMO,both should be held accountable. But two wrongs dont make a
right. I appreciate the civil tone of those who disagree with me. And I completely respect your POV on this subject.
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Dogmudgeon Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 08:29 AM
Response to Original message
14. Paging Inspector Javert, Paging Inspector Javert ...
Edited on Sat Sep-16-06 08:32 AM by Pigwidgeon
This is nuts.

In the absence of an amnesty, the rehabilitation of deserters should be straightforward and non-punitive. The "consequences" we're always jawboning about should be oriented toward public service, not emotionally-gratifying and career-enhancing petty revenge.

No wonder so many people are fanatically devoted to Jesus. No God in His right mind would ever be able to forgive us.

On Edit: Looks like the punishment will be mercifully light. But, jeeze, forty years on the lam on a military felony warrant from an earlier criminal-owned-and-operated war. What will it take for America to pull its head out of its ass?

--p!
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MrPrax Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 11:03 AM
Response to Reply #14
19. The last one was treated lightly...
Edited on Sat Sep-16-06 11:05 AM by MrPrax
U.S. deserter back at home in B.C.

Fri, 17 Mar 2006

A British Columbia man arrested last week for deserting the U.S. Marine Corps nearly 40 years ago returned home Friday after being released from a U.S. military jail.

Marines took Allen Abney, 56, to the airport on Thursday night and paid for a flight to Spokane, Wash., where he was picked up by his family and driven home.

Allen Abney fled to Canada in 1968 because he didn't want to fight in Vietnam. Allen Abney fled to Canada in 1968 because he didn't want to fight in Vietnam.

He was arrested a week ago as he tried to cross the border in Idaho. He and his wife were on their way to a holiday in Reno, Nev.

CBC


Picture of the Happy Canadian!!
Welcome Home

________

Probably the bigger annoyance to many Americans is not so much deserting the military, but deserting America...they talked the talked and walked the walked

(on edit -- to add pix and zinger)
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VegasWolf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 11:54 AM
Response to Original message
22. Why isn't Bush arrested then for deserting from the National Guard? nt
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1monster Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 12:29 PM
Response to Original message
23. Weren't all draft dodgers and derserters pardoned by Carter back
in the late seventies?
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nsd Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 05:32 PM
Response to Reply #23
27. Draft dodgers yes, but deserters no. /nt
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Breeze54 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Sat Sep-16-06 06:45 PM
Response to Reply #27
29. Ford offered clemency to Vietnam draft resisters and deserters.
In 1974, President Ford offered clemency to Vietnam draft resisters and deserters.
Only 27,000 of 350,000 eligible applied. The offer expired on April 1, 1975.

In 1977, President Carter pardoned those who dodged the war by not registering
or fleeing the country.
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