Written in stone, find is historic

[Judi Lynn]

Sept. 15, 2006, 12:18AM
Written in stone, find is historic
A discovery in Mexico predates the oldest script in Mesoamerica

By JOHN NOBLE WILFORD
New York Times

A stone slab found in the state of Veracruz in Mexico bears 3,000-year-old writing previously unknown to scholars, according to archaeologists who say it is an example of the oldest script ever discovered in the Western Hemisphere.

The order and pattern of carved symbols appeared to be that of a true writing system, according to the Mexican scientists who have studied the slab and colleagues from the United States. It has characteristics strikingly similar to imagery of the Olmec civilization, considered the earliest in pre-Columbian America, they said.

The inscription on the stone slab, with 62 distinct signs, some of them repeated, has been tentatively dated to at least 900 B.C., and possibly earlier. That is 400 years or more before writing had been known to exist in Mesoamerica, the region from central Mexico through much of Central America — and by extension, to exist anywhere in the hemisphere.

"This is centuries before anything we've had. People have debated whether the Olmecs had any writing. This clears it up," said David Stuart, a University of Texas at Austin expert in Mesoamerican writing. Stuart reviewed the study for the journal Science.
(snip/...)

http://chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4188309.html

[bhikkhu]

1. My question: can this script be linked to the contemporary chinese

scipts? There have been some good works done relating striking similarities between Chinese and Olmec artistic motifs of the period, suggesting trade relations.

Any indications of similarities between the ancient scripts?

[Art_from_Ark]

2. If there were only 60 some-odd characters,

it would seem unlikely to be related to Chinese... unless the Olmecs did what the Japanese did long ago, and abbreviate some Chinese characters into phonetic letters.

[bhikkhu]

3. It is a very short text...including repeated characters

(and the sole example of text from that period). This in itself suggests an ideographic approach, rather than a phonetic, though dedications or poems in the the later syllabic mesoamerican scripts could have been written as briefly.

What would be an indication would be the morphology of the characters themselves.

[Art_from_Ark]

4. On the other hand, an ancient Japanese script written only

in hiragana (one of the abbreviated Chinese character phonetic systems) would potentially contain more than 50 characters. A simple text might contain all the characters; many would be repeated and some would not be.

[PerceptionManagement]

5. The important thing is that this find does not upset current ID theory

uh, I mean Intelligent Design science! Science! Damm I always get that wrong.

[stepnw1f]

10. Reality Itself Challenges ID/Goof-Ball Design (nt)

[Irreverend IX]

7. But the thing about Japanese script is...

The kana were derived from Chinese kanji, so there is no ancient Japanese writing that predates the importation of kanji.

I think it's a big stretch to assume that the use of an ideographic writing system indicates commerce between the Olmecs and Chinese. Every human writing system has its roots in ideograms; it seems that the natural evolution of written language is from ideograms to phonetic symbols. That's how it worked with Egyptian hieroglyphs, Hebrew letters, our own Roman letters and all other writing systems I'm aware of.

[bhikkhu]

20. No denial that it is a big stretch

but an interesting possibility.

At least if it could be shown there are no correlations in the scripts, then the notion of Olmec/Chinese contacts looses some of its probability. It is easy to speculate on very slim evidence, and good with an open mind to welcome new evidence that might discourage speculation.

[semillama]

12. None.

they're describing it as a system that actually doesn't have any descendents - it didn't evolve into Maya glyphs, for example. What it represents is that the Olmecs had the concept developed, which is what is really important here. From what i've read, the glyphs are representations of things such as maize, animals, etc. Check out the replication of the stone in the article - pretty basic stuff, not very developed, but nothing to suggest it's not an independent invention.

[Book Lover]

24. I would love to read that information;

can you recommend sources?

And FWIW, based on my own books detailing ancient Chinese characters, as well as Chinese writing contemporaneous to the estimated time of this artifact's creation, I do not think the one influenced the creation of the other. I think any similarities probably come from the use of the same sorts of tools to scribe the texts.

[bhikkhu]

30. One good book:

http://www.amazon.ca/Nu-Sun-Asian-American-Voyages-B-C/dp/0962199001

I happened across it in a library years ago. It is not typical of the genre, dealing rather interestingly with the conventions of Olmec artistic motifs and their interpretations, making the argument entertaining. This is definitely not a spurned-by-his-peers author with a big scholarly chip on his shoulder, and I don't think he takes his ideas farther than the evidence suggests.

[aquart]

6. I can see the animal hide sign.

Reminds me of the Phaistos Disk.

<>

[xchrom]

8. what a wonderful find!

the cultural richness and depth of the first nations people is always taking people by surprise.

but what a great surprise.

[Yupster]

9. Let me recommend the book "1491" here

wonderful information about the early Americans.

I didn't know so much Aztec writing was still available including literature.

On the other hand, it still looks like the Inca were the only civilization to develop without a writing system at all. Seems impossible with such a vast empire, but no evidence so far other than the quipus which would certainly be a unique form of writing, if that's what it was. More likely it was just mathematical though.

I learned from the book that written language developed from math which I had never thought of before but it makes sense.

First you draw three strokes. Then you have a picture of a cow with three strokes. Then you have a picture of a guy next to a cow with three strokes. You can see how math can turn into writing.

Great book. I highly recommend.

[xchrom]

25. thanks, yupster!

i'll try to check it out.

[thereismore]

11. I can't see a bloody thing on that stone. nt

[BrotherBuzz]

13. Does this help?

[spinbaby]

14. Hey, I can read that!

Ant, tulip, lily, Olympic torch, mattress, mummy, corn, upside-down pineapple;) ;)

[BrotherBuzz]

15. And ice cream cones!!!!

[closeupready]

16. ANTS?! I thought those were roaches.

LOL

[undeterred]

17. ice cream cone, carrot, or lobster?

I think its a menu.

[BrotherBuzz]

18. You might be correct

I want to see the wine list.

[undeterred]

19. the beverage tonight is goat's piss

[rayofreason]

21. Sorry, no domesticated goats...

...unless you believe in the Book of Mormon.

[thereismore]

23. Llamas then. nt

[thereismore]

22. Well, no, because that is someone's idea of what is on it. I'd like to

know how much of this is actually there.

[VegasWolf]

26. Item #13 is clearly a condum. :) nt

[BrotherBuzz]

27. As are 19 thru 22

French letters, we used to call them.

[sofa king]

29. Here's my translation.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

31. ...

:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:
:rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl::rofl:

[Nihil]

32. Excellent!

:applause: :toast:

[bhikkhu]

28. One interesting note on the style of writing

Scripts tend to develop characteristics depending upon the type of mediums used. Scripts for engraving upon hard stone tend to be angular - lines formed by scraping with a hard point back and forth. It is very difficult to scribe a curve on stone in this way. So I would guess that this script was developed in a different media, such a ink on smooth paper, as the Mayans and Aztecs used.


(and I will drop the idea that there may be correlations to the Chinese script

[Blue_Tires]

33. ttt

[mccoyn]

34. Link

The link isn't working for me. I found this one, which will expire in a few days. http://www.nature.com/news/2006/060911/full/060911-11.html