FT: McCain stands his ground on CIA jails (even if it risks Presidency)

[DeepModem Mom]

Financial Times: McCain stands his ground on CIA jails
By Demetri Sevastopulo, Caroline Daniel and Holly Yeager in Washington
Published: September 14 2006

John McCain, the Republican frontrunner for the 2008 presidential election, has dramatically raised the stakes in a fight with the White House over interrogation techniques permitted for use at secret Central Intelligence Agency prisons by saying he is unwilling to back down on the issue even if it ruins his chance of becoming president.

The Arizona senator, who was tortured as a prisoner of war in Vietnam, strongly opposes Bush administration legislation that he says would redefine US obligations under the Geneva conventions. The White House played down the escalating dispute yesterday, which mirrors a similar battle Mr McCain won last year against the administration.

“This is not a showdown at the O.K. Corral,” said Tony Snow, the White House press secretary.

But two people briefed on conversations that Mr McCain had with his staff said the senator told aides he was willing to risk the presidency, because of possible loss of support from Republican lawmakers and voters.

“His decision to take a stand on this issue is not based on a political calculation,” said Eileen McMenamin, his spokeswoman. “He believes this is the right thing to do to protect American servicemen and women, and our values.”...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/4fadbf1c-4424-11db-8965-0000779e2340.html

[clmbohdem]

1. Can't imagine Rove is too happy.

Randi said Bush, Cheney and Rove were on the hill today for this deal.

[BattyDem]

2. Why would * listen to McCain?

What does McCain know about torture?

:sarcasm:

[napi21]

4. It's notthat Chrub would listen to him or not. Without McCain's vote,

Shrub won't get his new laws! Well, not only McCain, but him and the other Pubs who are standing with him on this deal.

[BattyDem]

7. I know ... I just couldn't resist pointing out the obvious

McCain has got to be the most qualified man in the GOP to make this kind of decision simply because he knows from experience what the impact will be - yet BushCo won't give a damn what he says. :eyes:

[Jack Rabbit]

10. Which brings up to rejoinder to your psot number 2

What does Bush know about Vietnam?

In fact, what does Bush know about real military service?

[BattyDem]

11. LOL ... good point!

:-)

[napi21]

3. As much as his palsyactions toward Shrub have pi**ed me off,

I respect him for taking a stand on this. I seriously doubt it will hurt his chances for Prez, and actually might help.

[Journeyman]

6. Agreed. I'm not a McCain fan, but if he holds to this resolve. . .

I'll have a lot more respect for him than I do now. And like you, I believe a stance like this can only help any candidate's chances -- the American public grows weary of Shrub's arrogance and deep in its heart, the People respect those who take principled stands.

[merwin]

22. When has McCain NOT been against torture?

Come on, he is a kiss-ass republican, but he's always been against torture.

[Renew Deal]

5. Bush, Rove and some of the pukes would rather have our soldiers tortured

Than have their actions scrutinized. I say protect our troops. And if Bushco broke the law, let them pay.

[PSPS]

8. Why would taking a stand against torture "risk the presidency?"

McCain has plenty to disqualify him from being president. He's mentally unstable, for one thing.

But this article says that his being against torture (sort of) somehow dooms any presidential chance he may have had "because of possible loss of support from Republican lawmakers and voters."

So, are we admitting in print now that the republican party is the party of torture? It is, of course. But this is the first time I've seen it put this way in print.

The subtext of this piece isn't that taking a stand against torture dooms a republican's chance at being president. It's that taking a stand against bush dooms a republican's chance of being president. I guess we are to presume that the next president will have to have the imprimatur of our fuhrer.

I don't know. This article really disturbs me.

[BattyDem]

9. If he doesn't follow the party line, the GOP won't back him

No money, no party support and most likely, he'll be swift-boated.

[agio]

24. I think McCain is being very smart about this

By 2008, Rove and company won't have much pull left, as the GOP will be frantically trying to distance themselves.

While I have no doubt that McCain is sincere about his anti-torture stand, he might also be being very politically prescient.

[caledesi]

38. Good point! nt

[Tyrone Slothrop]

33. Not to mention the fact that Bush et al

Still have control over the voting machines.

[bklyncowgirl]

53. I have a better chance of getting the GOP nomination than McCain does

You ever hear some of those right wing nut jobs on CSPAN talk about McCain. There's a venom in their voice reserved for a few select politicians such as the Clintons, Kerry, Gore and possibly Dean.

These are the people who will be champing at the bit to vote in the primaries.

McCain may have realized that his only hope is to stop playing footsie with Shrub--who burned him yet again with that signing statement--and go for whatever moderate Republicans are left--or possibly set himself up for a third party run.

McCain/Lieberman as candidates of the "Unity Party" anyone?

[Tyrone Slothrop]

34. He's completely unqualified to be President

Know anything about McCain's educational background?

Graduated 895th out of 900 in his class at the Naval Academy.

That's it. That's the full sum and scale of his academic "achievement". I don't think this country can take even another 4 years of having a dumb ass in charge of things.

[Spinoza]

37. I don't think McCain risks

his chance at the Presidency if he makes it to a general election. However, he probably does risk his chances with the hard core Republican base he will need to win the Republican primaries. And if he can't win the Republican nomination he obviously can't win the general election. So in that sense, he is risking the Presidency. I have to admire that.

[calimary]

44. EXCELLENT! Let's start calling them that: republi-CONS. The party of

TORTURE!!!!

[Tiggeroshii]

12. I could see him going on with Kerry if Kerry wins the Dem nomination.

McCain denied Kerry in 04 because he wanted to run for president in 08. My guess is that if this does* ruin his chances of becoming president he would settle for a rock solid ticket as vp much like the one offered to him in 2004. Might be interesting...

It is so important for him and guys like Powell to finally be in lockstep against the adminstration on this. Very very important.

[karynnj]

36. That story has been debunked

It was encouraged by McCain people. Nothing Kerry ever said or did give it credibility. Joe Biden thought it was a good idea when he was on a talk show. (Joe Biden is Not John Kerry.)

There is an account where Paul Reikoff and other vets met with Kerry. Among other things they offered Kerry their opinion that he should pick McCain or Clark as VP. Kerry supposedly said McCain was not on the table.

[Tiggeroshii]

47. You sure about that? It was on the front page of the LA Times.

I'll have to look it up again, maybe you are right.

[karynnj]

54. It was never a verified story - ever

Newsweek in it's election issue included a story that it was offered. McCain himself said Kerry never offered it. What seems to be the case was that McCain people spread the story to inflate him.

In 2004, Kerry said that he would say nothing about who was on the list of VP candidates and that he would simply announce the VP after choosing and being accepted. That is what he did. Think who is helped by the story - not Kerry. The fact of the matter is that Kerry/McCain makes no sense - unless Kerry had a death wish. McCain and Kerry were 180 degrees different on Iraq and how they would deal with terrorist.

[bklyncowgirl]

52. Been there, done that, not going to happen. nt

[HardWorkingDem]

13. Bullshit....here is what he is up to....

by doing this he not only retains his "maverick" label, but also enhances it.

When it comes to his political life, there are very few as craven as this man is and anymore, this man is more political than many others.

Don't let it fool you.

Remember, this is a man who hugged a man who was responsible for slandering his wife, adopted child and war background.

[neuvocat]

14. And with a growing wave of anti-war fervor...

you can bet the house that he's capitalizing on it.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

16. My viewpoint exactly

My respect for McCain ends with his military service to our country. Beyond that, he has been one of the most calculating and dishonest pols ever able to pull wool over the eyes of his constituents.

I don't think he'll hurt his chances for the White House because he hasn't got many.

And people don't vote for candidates as visibly ill as he is. He's not gonna look any better by '08.

[acmavm]

18. You're absolutely right in everything you say. The man and his record

is out there for everybody to see.

Do you have any idea why so damn many people are fooled into thinking this self-serving clown is presidential material, because I sure as hell don't.

Look at the man from the days of his collaborating with Charles Keating to now. It's plain that he is an opportunist without and integrity whatsoever.

I'll never understand how this clown has made it as far as he has.

[SheWhoMustBeObeyed]

48. I don't understand his appeal either

It's the military record, I guess. He survived war and torture and extreme hardships without being broken by them, and that's an impressive achievement. Duke Cunningham was a war hero, too, highly decorated and admired. Once a man has established his character under duress, he can go a long way on that reputation no matter what means and motives he subsequently employs.

So McCain has a personal stake in the torture of war prisoners. That's to be expected. So it puts him at odds with Bush. He's still one of the most solid supporters of the war and the administration, not to mention that he has one of the most conservative voting records in the Senate. And that's saying something.

Regarding the Keating Five, revisionist history spread on Wikipedia and other questionable sources paint McCain as a nearly-innocent victim of the investigation, dragged into it by a Democratic-controlled Senate committee in order to make the scandal appear bipartisan. But unlike the four Dems involved, McCain was friends with Keating. Keating raised more money for McCain's campaigns than for the others, paid for many trips by McCain and his family, and was involved in a real estate deal with McCain's wife and father-in-law.

Do I think there are any good Republicans? There are some not as bad as others, but John McCain is not one of them.

[calimary]

45. Good point about his health.

And '08 is two years away. He's not looking (physically) good now. Maybe he'll position himself as kingmaker instead.

[Dem2theMax]

17. No matter what Mc Cain might, or might not get out of taking this

position, I honestly believe it is the position he would take. He isn't doing this for 'gain.' He is doing it because it is the right thing to do.

I don't agree with the man or respect him on anything else he has done while in office, but on this one issue, I will stand by his side.

[merwin]

25. And the fact that he was tortured in Vietnam has nothing to do with it...

Sure

[rodeodance]

15. Bush got one up on McCain (and the US) with his signing statement last

time. So, technically, McCain did not win.





.....which mirrors a similar battle Mr McCain won last year against the administration.

[killbotfactory]

19. It takes a lot of bravery to be against torture.

Good for McCain I guess, but what a fucking disgusting political atmosphere we have where being opposed to torture is a "controversy".

I guess torture is only bad if people we don't like do it.

[HuffleClaw]

20. positioning himself as a 'good guy'?

and some faked opposition to his stunt. how very calculated of them.

[merwin]

21. I like McCain as a person, and greatly respect his views

when it comes to wartime policy. Yes, I disagree with many of his other positions... and he is a kiss-ass (as are most politicians). But, as a human being I believe he is impressive, and war is something he definitely knows a lot about.

Plus, his SNL skit 'McCain sings Streisand' was hilarious :)

[theophilus]

26. I think the NeoConzis are counting on lots of folks "liking him as a

person". They know he needs to come out against the President. This issue is a good one for him....shows he more....uh........compassionate......ya know? He's still a good Republican, of course. He can toughen his views on the important stuff like abortion, etc. Yep. He's gonna ge who Joe Sixpack wants in there to replace the bumbler in chief. (Now the poor Repug voters don't realize that all of the major players in the NeoConzi skeems are going to still be there pulling the strings.

All the NeoConzis need is a McCain, or his equivalent, to "win" the election in 08. May God have mercy on us all if THAT happens!

[merwin]

29. Uh, he's not exactly a neo-con wet dream.

There's no way he'll win the election in '08. They'll do the same thing to him this time that they've done to him in the past. They don't want McCain as a president. He's against the very thing that they want... totalitarian control.

When I look at McCain, I see a kiss-ass who's struggling to fit in with the current crowd of neocons. He's a plaything for this administration. Like the little kid who wants to be like the 'cool' older kids, but who all of the older kids know can't cut it. They let him pretend to be cool and laugh at him later.

It's kind of sad actually :)

[theophilus]

30. I hope you're right. But money and power do tend to make

complicity. Back before Bush's "trifecta" he was against nation building and big gubmint, too. Or so he said.......

[0007]

50. I hope he doesn't

[ShortnFiery]

43. You must not know many true RW ers or die hard RNC republicans

McCain could save the free world single-handedly but they will NOT EVER forgive him for making Dear Leader look bad. Those whisper champaigns before the 04 primaries were vicious and many of these 'parrots' continue to repeat and believe the lies that he's crazy and has a black child out of wedlock.

No, I think McCain now realizes that he could never be forgiven, even if Fallwell says he's ok.

The Right Wing Kool-aid drinkers do NOT EVER forgive. They hate Democrats and Liberals with every fiber of their being. If they had their way, we'd all be carted down to GITMO, locked up and thow away the key.

The Right Wing is "Barking at the Moon" MAD ... McCain now knows and respects that. :-)

[HardWorkingDem]

35. I used to think I respected him until after....

his performance after the 2000 primaries.

Any man who climbs into bed with another man who has been helped and refused to refute those who have attacked his wife, wife, adopted child, character and war time actions is not one deserving of my respect. Also, recall his sudden change in attitude toward Bob Jones University and Jerry Falwell - when it comes to having epiphanies late in life, they better be understandable, but in McCain's life it appears they are quite explainable when the road to the Whitehouse clearly goes through the house of the radical right.

This man is nothing more than a political opportunist.

[Vinca]

23. Shrub is a piece of work.

First veto: embryonic stem cell research that would help countless ailing Americans. Second veto: the right to torture. This is more like a sick cartoon than a presidency.

[yellowcanine]

27. I do give McCain credit on this one. It will not help him with the wing

nuts, that is for sure. Maybe he is planning an independent run for President?

[MasonJar]

28. I do believe he feels strongly about this issue, but I also think he

realizes that most Americans do not support this inhumane treatment of prisoners. McCain is not risking anything and he knows it.

[stepnw1f]

31. Bush is John McCain's Buddy... Who's He Trying to Fool?

[quiet.american]

32. You know, since when *is* pro-torture a great campaign platform?

This whole "he's willing to risk the presidency" thing sums up the character of "Republican lawmakers and voters" as far as I'm concerned. Pro-torture -- he has their support and vote, anti-torture -- fuggedaboutit -- says it all about the GOP.

[Jersey Devil]

40. Umm, thanks for confirming I am not crazy

I was sitting here thinking to myself, "Being against torture is bad for your campaign? WTF"

[galileo3000]

39. Probably gonna be attacked for this.

I have always found John McCain to be reasonable and willing to sincerely discss and defend his positions. When I was in AZ, I missed out on a chance to meet him. While I may not agree with many of his views, I respect him.

[HardWorkingDem]

41. Oh, yes.....I respect any man....

who embraces another man after the man is partly responsible for saying I gave my wife vd, my adopted child is a love child, that I caused my wife to get hooked on drugs and I faked part of my torture and capture in a Vietnam prison.

[ShortnFiery]

42. Hey, IMO all is forgiven if McCain holds his ground ...

No, I wouldn't vote for him for President. However, there are times when McCain does the right and moral thing. For those fleeting times, I respect him. ;)

[dsharp88]

46. ALL?? No way,

but at least he has guts enough to stand up to the man now and then.

[HardWorkingDem]

49. Really, when?

As I originally typed, I suspect McCain is doing this purely for future political gain - especially his own. He's looking two years down the road on this one just like he does on everything else.

[merwin]

51. And the fact that he was tortured in Vietnam has nothing to do with it,

right?

There's a good reason that GW Bush & Co wouldn't let him be president and would do anything to stop him. Because he doesn't support their views on world domination.