Critics of Israel 'fuelling hatred of British Jews'

[T_i_B]

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,,1863808,00.html

A group of prominent MPs, alarmed at the rise of anti-semitism in Britain, will accuse some left-wing activists and Muslim extremists this week of using criticism of Israel as 'a pretext' for spreading hatred against British Jews.

The charge is made in a hard-hitting report - by MPs from all three major political parties - which will be unveiled at a Downing Street meeting with Tony Blair on Thursday. The report is published in the wake of an alarming increase in verbal harassment, abusive emails and letters, and even violent assaults on British Jews. The number of incidents that took place in July, which came in the middle of escalating violence in the Middle East, was the third highest on record.

The 10-month inquiry into anti-semitism in Britain was chaired by the former Europe Minister Denis MacShane and included the former Tory leader Iain Duncan Smith and the Liberal Democrat environment spokesman Chris Huhne.

Details of the report are being kept confidential until its formal release. However, a draft of the document - seen by The Observer - reveals that incidents of verbal abuse, harassment and violence against Jewish community members and their institutions is reaching worrying levels.

[Junkdrawer]

1. So...it's official now. n/t

[intaglio]

2. I want to see some research supporting this idea

What is the connection, if any? I am not saying there is not a connection.

[dipsydoodle]

3. I'm in the UK

and can say in all honesty that this is news to me. I'm wondering if it affects certain parts of the country and is associated with counter demonstrations for example. I'd like to see some proof of the claim.

[non sociopath skin]

4. And I - and my Jewish wife - live in a largely monocultural ...

... socially conservative part of UK and have experienced no anti-semitism, actual or reported, whatsoever.

I guess that now that we have three centre-right parties in the UK, it's easier to get the cross-party consensus you need.

The Skin

[dipsydoodle]

9. I usually get into trouble

on DU if I mention Jewish friends - apparently sounds patronising. Fact of life is that I lived and went to school in Edgware which was affectionately know as a "stronghold" in the fifties - next adjacent ones of course being Golders Green and Hendon. We had , what was then, in the fifties, the largest synagogue in Europe. Needless to say, of course a lot of my friends were Jewish and some of us remain in touch even to this day. I'd no cause to be intolerant as a child and nothing has ever changed that. These days if I even heard an anti semitic remark I'd do something about it and same applies to racist remarks towards black and asians.

The one thing that always mysified me was why my friends mothers were so affectionate toward me. One of the girls explained to me only recently that it was because I was so polite toward them. Apparently Jewish boys have a reputation for being like Harry Enfield's character Kevin. I guess, hopefully, times have changed if that was true then.

[T_i_B]

6. It probably does affect certain parts of the UK more then others

London and Manchester will more likely be affected then rural areas for instance.

[dipsydoodle]

10. If that's true

then it sure ain't north west London - never ever known any issues out this way other than isolated incidents with wannabe "skinheads" across the years. Maybe true of east London because of the BNP and also Galloway stirring up the Muslims. Also maybe true of the midlands and north of England as a result of issues between Muslims and the Jewish community.

[non sociopath skin]

15. I'm in the North of England. Rustbelt area near both city & country.

No problems I can see in either.

The Skin

[HysteryDiagnosis]

5. Some refer to this sort of behavior as hazing... just a few guys

having a little fun... blowing off steam.


http://www.democraticunderground.com/top10/04/155.html
"This is no different than what happens at the Skull and Bones initiation, and we're going to ruin people's lives over it... These were just boys and girls blowing off steam during a stressful situation. Let's not make an international incident out of it, for crying out loud." A guest on Hannity and Colmes said that the pictures were no worse than a frat hazing. "So in other words, this is not a big deal?" replied Sean. (Hannity had already compared the prisoner abuse to frat hazing on his radio show earlier in the week.) Now, I don't know if it's escaped Rush and Sean's attention, but generally speaking frat members don't go around pulling random people off the street and hazing them against their will. Come to that, how can these two giants of morality look at the pictures and even try to make excuses? I wonder... if Iraqi soldiers took Sean and Rush away from their families, put them in a jail cell, stripped them naked, put hoods over their heads, forced to simulate oral sex on their fellow inmates, put a leash around their necks and dragged them around on all fours, piled them up in a heap of other naked inmates, and beat the shit out of them - would they still consider it to be "not a big deal?"

[Henny Penny]

7. Surely the way round this is to make it absolutely clear that

Israel the political entity is completely separate from the Jewish faith and ethnicity.

I am sure there are people who wish to prevent any criticism of Israel, the political entity, by making the two inseparable, and equally I am sure there are neo-nazi types who wish to use this lack of separation to enable racist attacks.

Neither of these groups deserve any support from me.

In fact I would go so far as to suggest that those wishing to deny people an opportunity to criticise Israeli govt. policies are actually encouraging the racist types in the same way that the war on terror is actively encouraging terroism. IMHO.

edit for after thought:

[dipsydoodle]

11. I'm not too sure this is

Israel related. It's always seemed to me that when synagogues were vandalised it was mini offshoots of what we'd now call the BNP trying to make a name for themselves.

I have noticed that these days synagogues have usually got security cameras outside and in some instances they are are guarded 24/7. What a sad fucking world when churches need guarding.

[Henny Penny]

80. I agree in a way. There always seems to be a low residual

level of these kind of attacks.

My point is that people saying "If you question Israel you are anti-Jewish" actually makes the BNP types say "look we're right. We just need to attack the local synagogue and if x% of people are so opposed to Israeli policies we can assume that x% will support us."

So by stifling proper debate the fascists win but then thats not surprising. Isn't one of the signs of fascism anti-intellectualism?

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

12. So, you have no problem with anti-Jewish bigotry?

Just trying to see why you object to people trying to reduce anti-semitism.

And I imagine the answer to this question: "I wonder how many of the Jewish half of those who died inthe holocaust would even have wanted to live in Israel asit is tese days?"

is that 100% would prefer Israel to a gas chamber. But tell me if you disagree.

[Kailassa]

20. An ancestor of mine prefered passage as a convict

on a cholera infected ship to death by hanging.

I doubt though that he would have made that his first choice if offered others.

[gorbal]

13. Come on, even Jews are criticizing the Israeli government

It would probably have been helpful to have more prominent Jewish scholars speak at the rallies denouncing the Israeli destruction of Lebanon. (and have the media cover it) Just as Bush included muslim clerics in prayers after 9/11, but it wouldn't have changed very much.

I'll repeat it, the Israeli government destroyed the infrastructure of Lebanon! Many Arabs were harassed after 9-11, Americans are warned away from many middle-east nations after the invasion of Iraq...My point is, I doubt anything these MP's have said has half as much clout as the destruction of an entire country.

It would be pertinent that they (the MP's) take action on this however. Whether or not they are at fault does not matter as much as that they have the power to change peoples attitudes to some extent. I hope they at least address the media on this issue and come together with the jewish and muslim community to help preserve the peace.

[geek tragedy]

18. The problem is bigotry. Full stop. End of discussion. No other answers.

If someone sees their Jewish neighbor and thinks "Israeli aggression," that person is a bigot and needs to adopt a more civilized mindset.

[Kailassa]

21. The problem is bigots in England trying to end discussion.

If someone hears criticism of Israel and thinks "antisemitism,"
that person is a bigot and needs to adopt a more civilized mindset.

[geek tragedy]

22. Anything to dismiss the problem of anti-semitism.

The discussion is about REAL INCIDENTS OF ANTI-JEWISH CRIMES AND HARASSMENT.

I fully reject the idea of equating criticism of Israel with anti-semitism.

However, anyone who can't come out and simply oppose anti-semitic bigotry without qualifiers has to do some serious soul-searching.

[Name removed]

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[ronnie624]

33. In fact,

Iranians have recently been described as riding around "on camels from Oasis to Oasis" and "a 5th century society", and the Middle East in general described as "fucked up" (obviously referring to Muslim society in general as opposed to being "fucked up" by centuries of foreign intervention).If Jewish people were generally described with such crude, thinly veiled racist stereotypes, I believe such posts would be promptly deleted.

[Kailassa]

40. I read the post you are referring too.

And too many others like it.

You are right, no broad-brush insults against any group of
people should stand unchallenged in this forum.

According one group "special status" above all the others helps no-one.
We need to avoid bigotry in all directions here.

[Name removed]

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[Kailassa]

38. Ad hominum attacks at someone you don't know

just make you sound pathetic.

[stepnw1f]

57. And Anything to Propell It

as you are doing here. A shallow tactic.... Keep it up....

[Name removed]

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[NOLADEM]

26. Simplify much?

Jesus dude.

Relax.

Critics of Israeli action are not bigots.

Israel is a country. Jews are SOME of the people who happen to live there.

An exact analogy would be calling criticism of the US anti-christian.

Israel is wrong. Israel is the US of the middle east. Israel is over-reacting because they can due to unfair US support, and they feel vindicated in attacking innocents because they experienced the holocaust.

So, until Israel is either forced to play fair or humbled horribly *(WHICH I DO NOT ADVOCATE AT ALL), they will continue to act in this way.

Invading a neighboring country over a hostage situation is unbelievably inappropriate, and did NOTHING to help their cause (or the cause of the captured soldiers).

I criticize Israel and ANYONE who supports them (bush, LIEberman, etc). And that does NOT make me anti-semetic. It makes me honest and observant.

[brentspeak]

37. All you can do is say that you speak for yourself

"Critics of Israeli action are not bigots."

That may be true of you, but it's a stretch to extend that claim to all other critics of Israel.

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

46. Did you bother reading the OP?

It's about how irresponsible criticism of Israel (yes, Virginia, it happens all the time--even at DU) leads to an increase of anti-semitic incidents directed at UK Jews.

The fact of the matter is that critics of Israel on the left turn a blind eye to the Jew-haters in their midst.

[muriel_volestrangler]

50. It's a *claim* of irresponsible criticism

There has been an increase in anti-Semitic attacks; given the timing, it seems reasonable to conclude the attackers did them because of the Israel/Lebanon conflict. However, we have seen no evidence that it was criticism of Israel that incited the anti-Semites, let alone evidence that it was 'irresponsible'. And the accusation that this criticism was a 'pretext' to spread hatred of Jews, that the article says is made in the (as yet unpublished) report, is very serious - and the report better have some good evidence for it.

[geek tragedy]

64. It'll be worth close scrutiny, that's for sure. eom

[genieroze]

51. Wrong

If someone sees their Jewish neighbor and thinks "Israeli aggression," that person is a moron. Israel is a country and can be slammed for their policies not their people including Jews who don't live their. I'm part Slavic and Milosevic was a idiot and anyone who blamed me for what he did would be an idiot. Just like people in other countries who blame all American people for Bush are idiots. Unless they mean the American morons who support Bush then those supporters deserve whatever harassment they get. IMHO.

[geek tragedy]

65. Idiocy and bigotry tend to go together. eom

[Radioactive]

14. This is down to ultra sensitive pro Israeli Jewish groups complaining

I haven't heard any reported racial attacks on Jews here in the UK over the last few months. This is in my opinion down to ultra sensitive Jewish groups who will defend Israel no matter what it does. They cant stand hearing criticism of Israel (majority of people in the UK were against the military action against Lebanon) and come out with the same slur everytime. "anti-semitism, anti-semitism, anti semitism" Yawn!!!!

Of course I despise any kind of racism and if there are Jews being racially abused in this Country then I condemn it completely.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[brentspeak]

39. So if someone smashed a chair over your head...

(as some freak did to one of the victims mentioned in another article) while another freak pulled a knife on you (same incident), and both freaks called you a "filthy Jew" at the same time (same incident), the problem, after all is said and done, is that the victims are simply "ultra sensitive" and "can't stand to hear criticism of Israel"?

[Kailassa]

45. That sounds reminiscent of another article mentioned here today

A young returned soldier, according to the article, was attacked
outside a large store at a busy time in the morning, by 5 men who
had been in an SUV. They asked if he was a soldier, called him a
baby killer and got stuck into him.

Strangely enough there were no witnesses, and his injuries were
"not ascertained," and there was no doctor or hospital mentioned.

[geek tragedy]

47. Have you no decency? Jews are not faking attacks on themselves.

Jesus Christ this place disgusts me sometimes.

[Name removed]

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[Name removed]

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[leesa]

16. Thou shalt never criticize Israel.

[screembloodymurder]

19. Bullshit!

Pure BS.

[Kailassa]

23. Americans in foreign countries cop prejudice, and insults at times

too. Some have even been killed in hijacks for being American.

But no true American would ever try to outlaw criticism of
Americans by citizens of another country within their own country.

[MrPrax]

24. Bogus...

From the rest of the report:

The report voices particular concern over 'a minority of Islamic extremists who are inciting hatred towards Jews', and it criticises recent moves by left-wing academics to boycott links with Israel. Though emphasising the right of people to criticise or protest against Israeli government actions, it says 'rage' over Israeli policies has sometimes 'provided a pretext' for anti-semitism.

'Calls to boycott contacts with intellectuals and academics working in Israel are an assault on academic freedom and intellectual exchange,' the report says, adding that the response of university vice-chancellors to such campaigns has been patchy.

Pro-boycott activists have angrily rejected allegations of anti-semitism and accused their critics of using the charge to ward off political criticism of Israel.

MacShane, speaking last week on a BBC radio programme devoted to Jewish community issues, said British Jews were right to 'shudder' at the 'aggressive' comparison of Israeli policies with the Holocaust. He also spoke of a 'witch's brew' of anti-semitism including the far left and 'ultra-Islamist' extremists who reject Israel's right to exist.

Observer

Oh Mr. McShane...the 'far left' is also hypercritical of your GOVERNMENT'S PRO-Israel policy.

Actually they are hypercritical of your government's ME war as well...you don't see a connection...funny on a pre-text to invade Iraq that was based on even less factual credibility than the average 'Holocaust Denier' pamphlet, you seem to nonetheless find a whole lot of 'racism' that seems to miss out the nearly 1000 British Muslims males that have been detained and held by your government with no charges...or the fact that anti-Islamic, anti-Arab pores out of every media outlet and sprinkles the speeches of both British and American leaders...your attempt to 'spin' anti-semitism to discredit criticism of British government policy towards Israel is not likely to get many takers.

You have a lot to say about academics that might not want to do 'business' with Israel, but so little to say about academics, like Bernard Lewis (who recently wrote about how August 22 was going to be the Rapture), whose entire careers is nothing but racist stereotyping.

I understand there is some talk about getting rid of your leader, Tony Blair, at the next convention...is that 'anti-semitic' as well.

It would seem their definition of 'anti-semitism' is being revised again with a much tougher Zionist lense...for example, how would be Israel's 'right to exist' necessarily infer 'anti-semitism' if you don't buy the Jewish homeland crap and think 'Israel' means the Jewish people, not a Jewish state. Or is it anti-semitism for Brits who haven't forgot about the King David hotel bombing and figure that since the Zionists allied with the Nazis against the British in WW2, they shouldn't be rewarded any further.

Showing solidarity for the oppressed isn't racism, no matter how many times the ruling class pulls this trick to cover up it's war crimes...

[Kailassa]

27. Many Jews are glad that people do not generally

equate Jews with Israel.

Efforts like this that could confuse some people about the
relationship between Jews and Israel are not welcome to all
of them.

Anti-Zionist-Expansion does not equal antisemitism.

Many Jews are quiet gentle people who just want to be left
alone to raise their families in their own home countries.

[cali]

30. Your post is hilarious.

The fact is that most Jews support Israel whatever country they live in. They may condemn actions and policies but they support Israel as a nation.

[Kailassa]

32. Perhaps you are starting to get it.

Just as there is a difference between supporting a nation and supporting a nation's actions,

there is a difference between condemning a nation's actions and condemning that nation.

There is a huge difference between condemning a nation's actions and condemning
all of the people belonging to a religion which is associated with that country.

[cali]

34. I'm starting to get it?

I've gotten it for a long, long time. As I mentioned in another post, I've been an active participant in protesting Israeli policies for a long time, both in the I/P forum here, and in the real world. And I've never been called an anti-semite, partly because I absolutely draw the line, and partly because I realize that there is an unfortunate amount of anti-semitism on the left- something most folks are simply unwilling to confront.

[Kailassa]

35. Well aren't you wonderful :-)

You must be so proud of yourself.

I hope one day you learn to post logical arguments instead of silly ad hominem attacks. :-)

[jonnyblitz]

56. and some folks are unwilling to confront the NUMEROUS

false claims (which IMHO far outnumber the actual stuff) of anti-semitism on the left used to stifle debate. Sorry, Cali, but I don't buy your evenhandedness on this issue anymore because you seem to be silent on the false stuff. when people start calling folks like Jimmy Carter and Human Rights Watch anti-semitic I don't know how one can take them seriously anymore.

[geek tragedy]

71. Much of it comes from far-right elements trying to infiltrate

the left and create common ground.

Take, for instance, this thread:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=146734&mesg_id=146734

Now, I don't know whether the person who posted that thread is anti-semitic. However, I DO know that the author of the piece cited is a virulent anti-semitic bigot who calls Jews "Christ Killers" and has said that American Jews are trying to control the planet and that The Protocols of the Elders of Zion have been proven to be true, even if they were originally a forgery.

Now, how does that kind of filth get posted on a progressive message board?

You can also look at the number of people who step forward to defend Mahmoud Ahmadinejad's blatant anti-semitism, desire to ethnically cleanse I/P of all Jews, and Holocaust denial (and yes, I can produce quotes from unimpeachable sources that erase any doubt).

[msmcghee]

79. It's interesting that no-one seems able to . .

. . to provide links to all this "silencing dissent with the use of the anti-semitism" canard.

Care to fill that gap?

[acmavm]

29. The actions of the Israeli government are stirring up any trouble that

might be out there, if there really has been a rise in 'anti-semetic' behavior.

[geek tragedy]

41. So, we should simply blame Hezbollah if Jews int the US

or the UK start burning mosques down?

[Kailassa]

43. No, Hezbollah don't have a history of false flag operations. n/t

[Name removed]

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[stepnw1f]

55. BINGO!!!!!! It's all about Silencing Dissent

and shedding responsibility onto their critics. Goebbels would be proud.

[Igel]

31. If people don't understand how communalism works,

it's impossible to discuss this topic intelligently. One has to assume that one's own cultural perspectives aren't universal.

Tribe-based cultures, and those steeped in racial divides, are prone to such thinking. One's identity is primarily based in the group--religion, tribe, race, ethnicity--and other kinds of identity are submerged in that.

It's a small step to thinking of justice in terms of groups, not in terms of individuals. If a member of one tribe wrongs a member of your tribe, it's incumbent on settling the score by having your tribe punish the other tribe. An insidious and hateful kind of thinking. Far too extant even in the US.

The scandal in this report is that it's not the white-tribe skinheads behind the violence, but others. Probably tinged with tribe-based thinking, but mostly "ethnicity" (i.e., religion) based communalism. For them, criticism of Israel and Jew-bashing are part and parcel of the same thinking, grounded in the same vile syllogism. Forcing their acts into a non-communalistic framework is not valid, and constitutes deluding one's self with a fallacy.

[ronnie624]

52. For my entire life

it has been generally accepted that anti-semitism was a product of right-wing political philosophy. Now, suddenly, I'm supposed to believe that "spreading hatred" against Jews is a leftist phenomenon.

Bullshit! Leftists have always lead the way in the battle against bigotry. Why would Jewish people be left out of the struggle for equality for all? It makes no sense.

I, for one, cannot wait to see the actual data in this "report" - if we ever do see it.

Considering the agenda of the PNAC crowd and its corporatist supporters, there is no wonder the corporate propaganda organs are attempting to paint leftists as anti-semites.

[stepnw1f]

54. Ah.... The Scoundrels Who Want to Stifle Criticism of Israel's Actions

And to link that to antisemitism to continue a military objective is insulting and disgusting. Those who are doing so here on DU are beneath contempt. I'm serious about this. If I were to criticize a government of a muslim nation does that too mean I am a bigot? Hey pro-Israeli? Why are you even here? There is nothing Progressive or Liberal about your allegiance to a country that has committed WAR CRIMES, for all to see, regardless of one's religion. Israel is not just inhabited by Jews... get it? Calling those people who point out the current atrocities of the Israeli government, bigots will not help you and will do injustice to those who are true victims of antisemitism. But you don't give a damn, do you? It's all political, and has nothing to do with antisemitism as much as it has to do with you using antisemitism as a label for those you disagree with. A way of silencing dissent... to guilt trip people into shutting their mouths up.

It's time the Israeli government takes responsibility rather than blaming those of us who merely point out the humanitarian crimes of a government. Just as Bush supporters blame liberals for supporting terrorism, now the Pro-Israeli neo-cons are doing the same. It's not working... many Israeli's and many Jews will back me up on this one. A very small minority of folks mean to divide us on this issue for political purposes alone. We need to stand firmly together and not allow this neo-nut bags, American or Israeli, to succeed. It's time we clean our backyards.

[msmcghee]

58. Take a breath - and start your purge with me.

You said,

"There is nothing Progressive or Liberal about your allegiance to a country that has committed WAR CRIMES, for all to see, regardless of one's religion."

Let's see how much you really care about war crimes. The greatest war crime that there is, the war crime that makes all other war crimes possible - is starting wars. It is using violence to get your way - rather than dialog and negotiation. Without war there would be no war-crimes.

No matter what is said, there is one abiding truth in the mideast that has never changed since 1948. That is,

The moment Israel's enemies put down their guns - war and all instances of war crimes and the deaths of all civilians would stop immediately.

OTOH if Israel were to unilaterally put down her guns - Israel would be over-run in days and Israel would cease to exist as a state.

If you are really against war crimes - then how come you never mention the greatest war crime of all that has recurred thousands of times in the mideast - attacking Israel and her citizens, each time with the avowed purpose to eliminate the complete state of Israel?

Until you can answer that question then your claim to caring so much about war crimes rings hollow and simply appears to be a call for the victory of Israel's enemies over her.

[stepnw1f]

59. Let's See if You Can Really Make a Point

to marginalize what I just said. Nope... aint gonna play that game with you, since I already know how rabidly you support the war crimes of Israel. I've seen your many twisted posts on the issue of Israel... not interested in talking to someone who is severely dishonest. Play with somebody else... I'm not interested in playing games. Your post is garbage.

[msmcghee]

60. Yes, I didn't think you could answer it. And, if . .

. . I am being dishonest and my posts are so twisted . . shouldn't it be easy for a smart person like you to point that out - and score some points for your side?

As an old friend once said, "Money talks . . bullshit walks."

[stepnw1f]

62. Don't Buy Your Pro-Israeli Garbage

so, keep bullshit walking by...... buh bye.

[msmcghee]

70. I think that anyone who's following this little acerbic subthread . .

. . will have no trouble figuring out who is doing the talking and who is doing the walking.

My challenge to you to point out my "dishonesty" and "twisted" logic remains.

[breakaleg]

61. The issue is not whether there has been a rise in anti-Semitism...

It's attributing that rise to criticism of Israel. Following that logic, there should be no criticism of any minority or ethnic group for fear there may be an increase in anti-whatever or racism as a result.

It's absurd to say that we can't criticize someone based on their actions for fear of the repercussions, especially when that criticism is warranted.

[geek tragedy]

63. It's a matter of HOW one criticizes Israel. eom

[Name removed]

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[geek tragedy]

69. Well, attempts to demonize Israelis, comparisons to Nazi Germany,

usage of Protocols imagery, using historic blood libels, and claims that the Zionists are trying to run the entire world are a good list of things to avoid if you want to avoid trouble.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Here is a valid comparison: Bombing of Beirut = Bombing of Warsaw

Aggressor nations like the US and Israel all act the same, and their actions are to be condemned just as the world condemned Imperial Japan's invasion of China and Nazi Germany's invasion of Poland.

Bush and Olmert are war criminals!

[msmcghee]

78. Yes, but notice that . .

. . more Germans were killed in WWII than American and English combined. No-one has called the allies the aggressors or Hitler the defenders in that war.

Also, that the British bombing of Dresden killed, burned alive in many cases, more civilians than both A-bombs dropped on Japan. No-one believes that the US and Britain were the aggressors in WWII.

Wars are very bad. People should not start them.

When people start wars there are deadly serious consequences. Their nation's infrastructure can be destroyed and many of their civilians can be killed.

For that reason, people who want peace and not war - should condemn those who start wars. They should support those who defend their citizens from the religious fanatics and the megalomaniacs who would gladly see thousands of their own citizens die - just to boost their own illusions af grandeur.

People who support those who start wars - are people who support war - and who must share responsibility for the deaths of all those who die in them.

[Name removed]

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[IndianaGreen]

66. Let the US, Britain and Israel change their policies vis-a-vis Palestine

The Left will never accept war crimes and human rights violations on the pretext of Israel's "right to exist" or US/UK's "war on terror."

The US is in rapid decline under Bush's tyranny, and will soon retreat into isolationism in order to heal from the neocon endless war on terror. Israel will be wise to recognize that Uncle Sam won't be there to enable her stupid policies toward her neighbors, and that peace is the only and best way to ensure Israel's "right to exist."

George Soros recently addressed this issue in his essay "Blinded by a Concept", which is excerpted here:

Looking back, it is easy to see where Israeli policy went wrong. When Mahmoud Abbas was elected president of the Palestinian Authority, Israel should have gone out of its way to strengthen him and his reformist team. When Israel withdrew from Gaza, the former head of the World Bank, James Wolfensohn, negotiated a six-point plan on behalf of the Quartet for the Middle East (Russia, the United States, the European Union, and the United Nations). It included opening crossings between Gaza and the West Bank, allowing an airport and seaport in Gaza, opening the border with Egypt; and transferring the greenhouses abandoned by Israeli settlers into Arab hands. None of the six points was implemented. This contributed to Hamas's electoral victory. The Bush administration, having pushed Israel to allow the Palestinians to hold elections, then backed Israel's refusal to deal with a Hamas government. The effect was to impose further hardship on the Palestinians.

Nevertheless, Abbas was able to forge an agreement with the political arm of Hamas for the formation of a unity government. It was to foil this agreement that the military branch of Hamas, run from Damascus, engaged in the provocation that brought a heavy-handed response from Israel -- which in turn incited Hezbollah to further provocation, opening a second front.

That is how extremists play off against each other to destroy any chance of political progress.

Israel has been a participant in this game, and President Bush bought into this flawed policy, uncritically supporting Israel. Events have shown that this policy leads to the escalation of violence. The process has advanced to the point where Israel's unquestioned military superiority is no longer sufficient to overcome the negative consequences of its policy. Israel is now more endangered in its existence than it was at the time of the Oslo Agreement on peace.

Similarly, the United States has become less safe since Bush declared war on terror.

The time has come to realize that the present policies are counterproductive. There will be no end to the vicious circle of escalating violence without a political settlement of the Palestine question. In fact, the prospects for engaging in negotiations are better now than they were a few months ago. The Israelis must realize that a military deterrent is not sufficient on its own. And Arabs, having redeemed themselves on the battlefield, may be more willing to entertain a compromise.

http://www.commondreams.org/views06/0831-22.htm

[msmcghee]

72. You speak for the left?

"The Left will never accept war crimes and human rights violations on the pretext of Israel's "right to exist" or US/UK's "war on terror." "

So, you admit that given the choice of seeing Israel commit "war crimes" (which BTW no-one has proven, yet) or - that Israel exist as a nation - you'd prefer that Israel did not exist?

That's like saying that some kid jumped outside a bar by some guys with baseball bats - but who severely injures his attackers, perhaps even kills one of them - should be executed for fighting back too hard.

Your sense of liberal fair-play and justice is astounding to me.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

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[msmcghee]

75. First, the use of cluster bombs . .

. . is not necessarily a war crime.

Second, I used no straw men - I used your own statement where you said that you'd rather see Israel destroyed than let her get away with war crimes (if they were committed) in her defense.

This BTW - was the argument you failed to address in your reply.

And, is the left handing out ID cards now to those who are authorized to speak for "us"? Where did you apply?

[Name removed]

76. Deleted sub-thread

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[Moderator]

81. Locking

This thread has become incredibly ugly.