Air Force asked to change name of "Crusaders"

[El Supremo]

An Air Force Academy graduate from Albuquerque wants Cannon Air Force Base officials to end the 523rd Fighter Squadron's use of "Crusaders" as the unit's nickname.

Mikey Weinstein, who has sued the Air Force over allegations that Air Force Academy cadets were unconstitutionally subjected to Christian evangelization, has complained about the 523rd's unit emblem, which features a cross, a sword and an armored helmet.

"The airmen of 523rd Fighter Squadron ... not only have invoked the term 'Crusaders' to describe their unit, they use blatantly sectarian religious symbolism on the patches they affix to their uniforms and the official logo of their unit," Weinstein wrote in an article for the Sept. 4 issues of the Air Force Times, Army Times and Navy Times.

A Cannon spokesman, Staff Sgt. Craig Seals, said he knew of no plans to change the Crusaders nickname or emblem.

http://www.denverpost.com/news/ci_4270732

[uppityperson]

1. That sounds like a good idea. Seperation of church and state.

seperation of fundamentalists of all stripes from the military.

[Kagemusha]

2. Fundamentalism has driven the military for over a century

Why would anyone start rooting it out now and "lower morale"?

[uppityperson]

12. better late than never. eom

[Solo_in_MD]

30. Church and State? Nonsense

There has not been crusade involving knights for a number of centuries. Its a historical not a religous reference.

Offensive to some? Undoubtably, but then again, I am not sure one could find a name/mascot/logo that would not annoy someone.

[uppityperson]

33. This image is pretty religious. May be historical, but religious also

[Poll_Blind]

3. Here is the patch he speaks of...

Seems like a reasonable request given the blatant imagery.

PB

[yellowcanine]

9. What were they thinking? Seems like a no brainer to me. Why don't they

just carry the Christian flag into battle then? If they want a theocracy let's do it right!

http://www.crwflags.com/fotw/flags/rel-chr.html

[TroglodyteScholar]

27. The Chistian flag?

I never knew such a thing existed...



Looks perfect for going into battle. Maybe all the fundies should secede and set up their own theocracy under this flag. There's some prime real-estate for them in the middle of the Atlantic.

[LostinVA]

10. Yeah, that's pretty bad...

[JPZenger]

4. Offends Muslims

I don't oppose the use of the name Crusaders because they use a cross. I oppose it because it is justifiably upsetting to hundreds of millions of Muslims. Large numbers of Muslims were killed by "Crusaders" in the Middle Ages who were trying to take back the Holy Lands and forcibly convert Muslims. It would be as if the Air Force had a squadron named the "Nazi Death Squads."

[El Supremo]

8. Oh, I oppose the cross.

How about offending any Jews? Or others? The cross should be in the chapel only.

I suppose another bad name would be the "Inquisitors".

[BreweryYardRat]

25. Mmm-hmm. Also offensive to Orthodox Greeks and the French.

The Christians who settled in the Holy Land after each Crusade killed plenty of Muslim civilians whenever they sacked Muslim towns, and the Muslims killed plenty of Christian civilians in sacked Christian towns.

However, whenever crusading armies fresh from Europe came to the Holy Land, they generally had a couple instances of mass murder.

For example, when the Crusaders took Antioch and Jerusalem in the First Crusade, and...I think it was Damietta in Egypt in the...Third or Fifth...they did their best to wipe out every Muslim in those cities, and killed something like 99% of them, along with most of the Jews. Coptic Christians-native Egyptians who dressed like Muslims-were also slaughtered in Damietta.

When the Fourth Crusade was turned against Constantinople by the Venetians in 1204, they killed something like half the population of the city.

The Albegenisian Crusades in France resulted in even worse mass murder. In one instance, 20,000 people (again, 99% of the population) were killed in the city of Beziers in order to wipe out a few hundred Cathar "heretics." We can thank Pope Innocent III's personal stooge Arnald-Amalric, for that.
***

And the little fundie-monkeys got the helm on the shoulder patch wrong. It should be a nasal helm or great helm, maybe a bascinet. Not a close helm.

[gratuitous]

28. It offends me too, and I'm a Christian

But then, us historic peace church types always get a little cranky when the cross gets mixed up with military stuff.

[leesa]

44. Glad to hear it. I would think Jesus would be offended too.

[El Supremo]

5. Here is their emblem.

[filer]

6. Onward Christian solders, marching as to war...n/t

[saigon68]

18. Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.
Christ, the royal Master, leads against the foe;
Forward into battle see His banners go!

Refrain

Onward, Christian soldiers, marching as to war,
With the cross of Jesus going on before.

At the sign of triumph Satan’s host doth flee;
On then, Christian soldiers, on to victory!
Hell’s foundations quiver at the shout of praise;
Brothers lift your voices, loud your anthems raise.

[filer]

20. Thanks, I could only remember the first two lines. n/t

[badgerpup]

35. Was that written by Arthur Sullivan (of Gillbert and Sullivan)?

Or did he write the Military Installation Icon Worship Song?
(A Mighty Fortress Is Our God)

I get confoogled...:crazy:

[leftchick]

40. I have no doubt

Jesus weeps when he hears that.

[sofa king]

7. Maybe they could call themselves the Washington Bullets, instead.

When you're changing your name to conceal an embarassing irony, it's pretty lame.

And yes, I do think the R--skins need to change their name.

[The Deacon]

11. Not Just Muslims

The Crusaders also slaughtered Jews before leaving for the Holy Lands & killed Christians who had the misfortune to be born with brown skins once there. Not exactly the image I think we want to portray to the world.

[El Supremo]

13. They also sacked Constantinople on the way to Palestine.

Not very friendly to fellow Christians either.

[The Deacon]

14. Yeah,

Well them Orthodox guys crossed themselves in a funny way!
(Of course, the REAL irony was that the First Crusade was instigated by Byzantine fears of the Ottomons - they never thought the Pope would send an entire army of crazied Holy Warriors.)

[BreweryYardRat]

26. Actually, that was the Fourth Crusade.

Doge Enrico Dandolo of Venice turned the Christians on that crusade against the Byzantines.

[InkAddict]

15. Now, if we dumb down our educational systems

back to K-12 level, perhaps no one would know history except as related by Granny Laura, a champion of librarian storytelling mythology. Heads of State would also serve as the the Pope, the head of the ELCA, the chief rabbi, and they could rally their divisions for constant evangelistic control of thought. Once upon a time.... versus In the beginning.... Lions, and tigers, and bears, OH MY!

[suston96]

16. So 'crusade" is a bad word?

And we gots to stop using it as in: she was a courageous crusader for truth, justice, and the American way? Y'all know who the "Caped Crusader" is, eh?

Ya think there are other words and phrases in our modern lexicon that might offend one segment of the population or another?

[LostinVA]

21. As you well know, using it in this context by this group

is terribly offensive.

Nice strawman though.

[LostinVA]

24. Please don't call that woman a librarian

She's an embarrassment to a very liberal, honorable profession.

[Lisa]

22. and the Cathars (in the Albigensian Crusade)

French Christians who just happened to disagree with the Pope. The Crusade started off as a tool of state repression (of so-called heretics), and turned into a free-for-all land grab and looting spree by mercenaries.

Unfortunately, this IS the kind of impression which the Bush Administration seems to want to give the rest of the world!

[Ian David]

17. What if they rename it The Maccabees?

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maccabees

[Name removed]

19. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[krispos42]

38. How about the Sacred Band of Thebes?

Three hundred brave Greeks, undefeated for 33 years until surrounded by Philip II in 338 BC. Even then they did not surrender, but 254 of them died in place.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sacred_Band_of_Thebes

[tabasco]

23. The Air Force has become a fundie branch.

That's why there's been so much SCANDAL at the USAF Academy.

The rotters outta get in the infantry. No I take that back. Get the hell out of the service.

Go start a freaking cult somewhere just get out and stop screwing up our military.

[damntexdem]

29. Hey, maybe they'll change the name to:

1. the Inquisition;
2. the Church Militant;
3. the Avenging Angels;
4. ???

Nope, under the Dubya Administration, they'll keep the name.

[Solo_in_MD]

31. There are also have been planes named Crusader

Namely the F8 and the Cessna 303

Are we going to have to remove the name Corsair too?

[BreweryYardRat]

36. Piracy was a generalist problem.

Unless corsair has another meaning I'm not aware of.

[rocktivity]

32. Here's what it looks like

I have no problem with the name--there are all kinds of crusades--but, yes, I think the cross should be removed.

:headbang:
rocknation

[JohnyCanuck]

34. Yup remove the cross.

but, yes, I think the cross should be removed.

And replace it with a picture of Jesus - that is the long haired, white, Anglo-Saxon looking Jesus, so those brown skinned heathens will know the great Anglo-Saxon sky warrior Jeebus was who authorized the dusting of their land with depleted uranium dust to bring them cancer and birth defects in their babies and cluster bombs to blow the arms of their children.

[Kailassa]

37. The whole US military machine should be renamed the Crusaders.

And each soldier guiven a white jesus icon to sit on his gun site
as he kills and dies to enable the theft of lands and comodities,
and the ruinatin of nations ...

Just like in the old days.

The Cannibals of Ma’arra

From the very beginning, during the Crusades (1096-1100 A.D.), the Crusaders gained themselves a reputation for their barbaric behavior amongst the Muslim inhabitants of Syria, and much of that reputation would appear to have been founded on the horrific events which occurred at Ma’arra al-Numan. Following the fall of Antioch, the Crusaders raided the surrounding countryside in the lean winter months failing to bring in anything like sufficient supplies to feed their large numbers. They laid siege on the town of Ma’arra al-Numan. As many as 20,000 of its inhabitants are reported to have been massacred, despite assurances that their lives would be spared.
But if such events were common during those times, what happened next was certainly not. The Christian soldiers started to cannibalize Muslim Men, Women and Children. Men and Women were boiled then eaten. Children were barbequed on spits, somewhat like a shish-kabob. In a letter to the Pope one of the Crusader commanders wrote; Radulph of Caen wrote explicitly how: "In Ma'arra our troops boiled pagan adults alive in cooking-pots; they impaled children on spits and devoured them grilled." For centuries afterwards, the image of the Crusaders as fanatical cannibals lived on in Arabic, Persian, and Turkish literature. Some Arab commentators have even suggested that the behavior of the Crusaders was born not of necessity, but rather out of fanaticism, their religious fervor leading them to view the Muslims as lower than animals. Thus Amin Maalouf, in his book The Crusades through Arab Eyes, points to the words of the Crusader chronicler, Albert of Aix, who wrote: "Not only did our troops not shrink from eating dead Turks and Saracens; they also ate dogs!”

http://images.google.com.au/imgres?imgurl=&imgrefurl=http://utah.indymedia.org/news/2003/10/6476_comment.php&h=475&w=345&sz=42&hl=en&start=2&tbnid=pYqI6piSawjd-M:&tbnh=129&tbnw=94&prev=/images%3Fq%3Dcrusades%26svnum%3D10%26hl%3Den%26lr%3D%26safe%3Doff%26client%3Dfirefox-a%26rls%3Dorg.mozilla:en-US:official%26sa%3DN

[JohnyCanuck]

39. Guess what, THEY'RE BAAAACCCKKK.

I guess if you were to firmly believe your god is going to cast unbelievers into a literal lake of fire and an eternal torment of being burnt alive in hell, then it wouldn't be a huge step to start the process by setting fire to them on earth. After all, being burnt alive on earth would only be a small foretaste of the oficial, god approved punishment they will endure throughout eternity.

That's what's scary about today's fundamentalist wacko reconstrucionistS. They are every bit as convinced as the crusaders of old that their is a literal heaven and a literal hell and their god is guiding their footsteps so that they are implementing his plans and doing his will. If they were to actually gain the type of control of government they are looking for, unbelievers will be lucky if the worse fate we face is a stoning to death for missing compulsory Sunday church services.

A Nation Under God
by John Sugg

SNIP

I first met DeMar 18 months ago at his church, Midway Presbyterian, in the Atlanta suburb of Powder Springs, where he was teaching a class on government. During the session, a teenage homeschooler talked about how he had tried in a paper to prove that the family is a form of “Christian government.” “You don’t have to prove that,” DeMar gently chided, and then added, with more heat: “That’s established—established by God!” DeMar’s lecture focused on the “three governments”—family, church, and state—all of which, he told me, should be ruled by God-fearing men.

The Old Testament—with its 600 or so Mosaic laws—is the inflexible guide for the society DeMar and other Reconstructionists envision. Government posts would be reserved for the righteous, as long as they are male. There would be thousands of executions a year, with stoning a preferred method because it would turn the deaths into “community projects,” as movement theologian North has noted. Sinners in line for the death penalty would include women who commit adultery or lie about their virginity, blasphemers, witches, children who strike their parents, and gay men (lesbians, however, would be spared because no specific reference to them can be found in the Books of Moses). DeMar told me that among Reconstructionists he is considered something of a liberal, because he’d execute gays only if they were caught indulging in sodomy. “I’m happy to just drive them back into the closet,” he said.

In introducing Moore at the Trinity Chapel rally, DeMar told the crowd that he supports a “jurisdictional separation of church and state.” But he was not mounting a defense of the First Amendment so much as outlining an organizational distinction. In his book Liberty at Risk, DeMar writes that “the State cannot be neutral towards the Christian faith. Any obstacle that would jeopardize the preaching of the Word of God…must be opposed by civil government.”

Besides facilitating evangelism, Reconstructionists believe, government should largely be limited to building and maintaining roads, enforcing land-use contracts, and ensuring just weights and measures. Unions would not exist, and neither would unemployment benefits, Social Security, and environmental protection laws. Public schools would disappear; one of the movement’s great successes has been promoting homeschooling programs and publishing texts used by tens of thousands of homeschooling families. And, perhaps most importantly, the state is “God’s minister,” as DeMar puts it in Liberty at Risk, “taking vengeance out on those who do evil.” A major task for the government key Reconstructionists envision is fielding armies for conquest in the name of Jesus.

http://www.motherjones.com/news/feature/2005/12/a_nation_under_god.html

Of course Karl Rove plays these "christian" screwballs like the proverbial violin.

[El Supremo]

41. Oh, like this?

[LostinVA]

42. That's a rosary -- that makes me sick

SICK. I was raised Catholic -- the Church is strongly anti-war, and the rosary is primarily an homage to the Blessed Virgin. Hanging it from a weapon barrel? Sickening. And also sacrilege.

[malmapus]

43. Rename it Templars!

Or Tuetonic Knights, always fancied those more :D