National Guardsman Brutally Attacked In Pierce County (baby killer)

[seriousstan]

PARKLAND, Wash. -- The Pierce County Sheriff's Department is searching for five people who allegedly attacked a uniformed National Guardsmen walking along 138th Street in Parkland Tuesday afternoon.

The soldier was walking to a convenience store when a sport utility vehicle pulled up alongside him and the driver asked if he was in the military and if he had been in any action.

The driver then got out of the vehicle, displayed a gun and shouted insults at the victim. Four other suspects exited the vehicle and knocked the soldier down, punching and kicking him.

“And during the assault the suspects called him a baby killer. At that point they got into the car and drove off and left him on the side of the road,” Detective Ed Troyer with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department told KIRO 7 Eyewitness News.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/9765757/detail.html

[Monkeyman]

1. Shades of coming home from Nam

Its not the troops its Bush's lies grow up punks

[ohiosmith]

43. Bullshit. Another lie propagated by Nixon and his scumbag cronies.

I have yet to meet a Viet Nam vet who has first hand knowledge of (or experienced) abusive treatment stateside as a result of their service in Nam. A number of vets I have spoken with gave anecdotal examples shared with them by others. But none could cite direct personal knowledge.

[zreosumgame]

47. the ones who 'spit' on Nam vets coming home were

the VFW and the GOP

[ohiosmith]

48. Fuck'n A

[warrens]

67. No, they were just street punks

The real left supported them as virtual prisoners of war. I spent my freshman year in college writing nasty letters to the draft board and helping sponsor workshops at the brig at the Portsmouth NH base.

[goforit]

105. Some teenager street punks can be vicious if found in packs.

[fishnfla]

70. Why dont you ask a fellow DUer?

'cuz
******** sez it happened to him. VN vet, was spit on

EDIT: I removed the DUers name, I didnt wanna call him out or rehash any bad memories. He claims it happened and has posted on it before.I believe him, perhaps he will reply on his own

[theanarch]

86. i have...but he was lying...

...i know because i met him as soon as he returned from 'Nam (1970), and at that time expressed nothing but respect and praise for the peace movement. 27 years--and a warehouse of VA-approved/dispensed psychotropics--later, he was singing a different tune. when i asked how he could say such things now, all he could do was hang his head and mutter over and over, "i don't know; i'm sorry; i don't know..."

[Kailassa]

97. No lie there. It was not the peace movement spitting on people.

It was the cowards who had previously supported the war
but would have pissed themselves if they'd ever had to
put their own lives on the line.

[theanarch]

107. i wouldn't say that either...

...over the years (and decades) i have known scores (and spoke with hundreds) of Vietnam vets, and never once heard a single story of them being spit on, having shit thrown on them or being called baby-killers. The worst that anyone ever reported (to me as) having happened were verbal arguments, and the overwhelming majority of these were with/from parents who couldn't accept the lifestyle or personality changes in their sons upon their return (sex, drugs, rock&roll; disinterest in work, school; hanging out with hippies), and/or WWII vets who objected to the younger vet's anti-government views or (perceived)lack of patriotism.

I suspect the genesis for these stories of derives from a "manifesto" issued (c. 1970) by some Weatherman-wannabe groupescule called Revolutionary Youth Movement (RYM, which--as small as it was--split into RYMI and RYMII), which advanced the position that returning GI's should be confronted with their "war crimes" at the airports (because these were public places that would garner media coverage). The mainstream press picked up on this (as a means of defaming and sliming the peace movement as a whole) and gave the "manifesto" its fifteen minutes of fame. As a "revolutionary position", i can assure everyone that it was unanimously rejected by the peace movement, generating a lot of press statements and LTTE's (by peace activists) condeming the tactic as both immoral and counter-productive. On the other hand, it also generated a lot of (inside-the-peace-movement) discussion--and soul-searching--about how to deal with those GI's who did rape, torture and/or murder--after all, such atrocities DID occur (and more frequently than reported), and the question of justice versus forgiveness was inevitable, if ultimately 'swept under the rug'.

After the war (1972/3 and on) the accusation quickly disappeared, mostly because there were no documented examples of it happening, and because (we were told by the press and the politicians) the nation was anxious to put the war (and its political/social/cultural antagonisms) behind us. It wasn't until the late '70's that conservatives started incorporating this meme of 'spit-on-vets' into their rhetorical repetiore; and it wasn't until the spate of 'viet-vet-rehab' movies hit the screens a few years later (Stallone's horrid Rambo pics; Chuck Norris's even worse MIA flicks) that the story grew legs, to the point that, these days, it is commonly accepted by much of the public as being not only an historical "truth", but an almost daily occurance experienced by a majority of vets. Along the way, some (mostly white, working-class) Vietnam vets began legitimizing the meme with their (often "recovered-in-therapy") memories.

Given the high emotions of the time, and the immaturity of some peaceniks and vets, i do not dismiss out of hand any and all claims by vets to having experienced this abuse. That said, neither do i automaticly credit their stories. Unless and until someone starts documenting the reality of these stories (and no reputable academic who's researched it has come any closer than second-to-fourth hand hearsay of doing so), the accusation is nothing more than slander: political propaganda and made-in-Hollywood myth.

[Kailassa]

110. I'm in Australia, and many Vietnam vets here felt hated

when they returned. But our government is not (yet) as clever at lying propaganda
as yours is, so it was never ramped up into a major issue, and few people blamed
the peace movement for it.

I tend to forget just how thoroughly things can be spun and blown out of all
proportion to tarnish the name of a group the government doesn't like.

[MarinCoUSA]

119. Indeed. I want to see the pictures.

I hate this meme.

[FILAM23]

90. Wrong

I was spit on and had fecal material thrown at me
during the Viet-Nam war. Once at LAX and another time
at Seattle Airport.Funny thing was I was not returning
from Nam, I was just on leave (this was back in the day
that to get military fare you had to travel in uniform)

[Mountainman]

94. Hello glad to meet you. Now you have met someone who has

first hand knowledge and experience of abusive treatment stateside.
The problem with it is that there is truth and there is what most DUers believe. And most DUers believe that it didn't happen and guys like me have some evil motive to attack the anti war people. Well I was a veteran and an anti war person. I had decided after six months in Vietnam that I would no longer support the war effort. I volunteered to go on a permanent duty building perimeter fences around Long Bihn for my last six months.

I have no reason to make up a story. I have nothing against the person who did what he did. At the time I could understand why he did what he did. He saw me as one of the perpetrators of the war. I represented the Vietnam war to him. Only problem with that was that I did not choose to go to war. I also did not leave the country when I was drafted.

Today it really doesn't matter to me much what is said here. I can understand the motive for thinking we are all delusional or lying. We never really were accepted back then and some parts of us still aren't. I'll go to my grave feeling like I do. Alone with my experiences, being called some name or other because what I say doesn't fit neatly into some person's view of the world. Their paradigm is what they made it and it is though that they see everything. Their paradigm does not let them believe the truth and I can live with that. I'm 60 now and the older I get the less it matters to me what people think.

I wasn't going to post to this thread because I knew how it would progress because there have been so many threads about this. But I came back to it tonight and here I am.

On edit: The reason I did not punch the guy out was because I was in uniform flying standby and I wanted to get home to Ohio. I was told when they let me go from Travis AFB that I was still subject to the uniform code of military justice for 72 hours and if I did anything wrong I could be in trouble with the law and with the military. I don't know if that was true or not but I wanted to go home and you could have done most anything to me as long as I got on the plane to Ohio.


No there is no evidence of what I happened to me, just as there is no evidence that the airline gave me a first class seat even though I was a stand by. I didn't do anything about it that would have attracted attention. There wasn't any evidence because we never made a big deal about it. I think we all were really surprised at the reception we got. I never expected for one moment that my coming home would be as painful as it was. Today I still feel a little cheated out of my hero's welcome. These threads are not comfortable to read either. But that's the way things were and are and will always be. I can't change how people think or feel about it.

Also, this would never have gotten the attention it did except for the fact that some guy wrote a book and called us liars because we could not produce evidence. How do I produce evidence that some guy spit on me in 1968? I did not think about that day for years until I heard the guy talking on KPFK. Also he was on the Mike Malloy show. I called into that show to tell my story and after I did the author said that he could no more prove it didn't happen than he could prove it did. This guy's talking points are what people who call us liars repeat as if they were original thoughts.

If this thread is anything like the others it will get pretty long. There will be a bunch of posters saying that what we say is all bull shit. Also there will be a bunch of posters that believe us. My thanks go to them.

[ronnie624]

96. Incorrect.

The problem with it is that there is truth and there is what most DUers believe. And most DUers believe that it didn't happen and guys like me have some evil motive to attack the anti war people.

The reason many DUers do not believe this myth, is because there is not a shred of evidence that would support it.


How does one attempt to prove a negative - that something didn't happen? This author does it by examining the positive side and failing to find any conclusive proof that it occurred. Along the way he finds many indications that it is indeed a myth.

His research examined newspapers from New York and San Francisco, as well as police reports detailing the interaction between protesters and veterans. No spitting incidents were reported, and the observers noticed that over time the veterans assumed leadership positions among the protesters. Lembcke did find newspaper reports of spitting during demonstrations in the late 1960s, but they referred to hawks spitting on anti-war protesters.

Reinforcing his myth hypothesis, Lembcke cites a Harris poll reported to Congress in 1972 that indicates 93% of returning veterans found their homecoming friendly, while only 3% found it unfriendly. The poll also reported that over 75% of returning vets were opposed to the war.
<http://www.vvaw.org/veteran/article/?id=215>

******

STORIES ABOUT spat-upon Vietnam veterans are like mercury: Smash one and six more appear. It's hard to say where they come from. For a book I wrote in 1998 I looked back to the time when the spit was supposedly flying, the late 1960s and early 1970s. I found nothing. No news reports or even claims that someone was being spat on.

What I did find is that around 1980, scores of Vietnam-generation men were saying they were greeted by spitters when they came home from Vietnam. There is an element of urban legend in the stories in that their point of origin in time and place is obscure, and, yet, they have very similar details. The story told by the man who spat on Jane Fonda at a book signing in Kansas City recently is typical. Michael Smith said he came back through Los Angeles airport where ''people were lined up to spit on us."
<http://www.commondreams.org/views05/0430-21.htm>

******

That’s the way a couple of long-time counselors of Vietnam veterans described stories about the vets being spit on when they came home from their war. The topic has come up in some of my conversations with other Vietnam vets. Those of us who didn’t experience such hostility on our return have wondered if the widely circulated stories are nothing but myths. Indifference ? Yes, that was commonly encountered by returning Vietnam veterans. Verbal abuse ? That seems to have happened to some. But physically being spat upon by those who were against the war and took it out on the returning troops ? That’s a harder case to pin down. Jerry Clark has a doctorate in social work and has counseled thousands of Vietnam veterans over many years. Even with all that experience, he can’t say if the stories about being spit upon are true or not. He suspects some of them are literally true, but the team leader with the Little Rock Vet Center says that after all this time it really isn’t possible to say for sure. When he’s pursued the question with vets who talked about it, he’s often discovered that they were repeating stories they had heard from others. They didn’t experience it themselves.
<http://www.nwanews.com/story.php?paper=adg§ion=Editorial&storyid=148651>


And I don't believe you have the ability to discern the beliefs of most DUers

[Mountainman]

99. You start out by calling it a myth. Obviously you wouldn't believe in a

a myth. You then get some words from someone else to support your conclusion. Nothing in those words proves it didn't happen. Like I said there is no proof it did happen because no one made and issue of it when it happened so there was no recording of the incidents. In my case, I did not know there would be any negative reaction to my coming home. I never in a million years would have thought that vets would get mistreated. No one told me what was going on back in the states. I actually thought I might get a hero's welcome. Boy was I stupid!

The book the guy wrote reminds me of an employer I once had. He would call me in to chew me out for taking too long to do something. Before I could explain he stated all the actual reasons why it took the time it did and then said, it wasn't for any of those reasons, so what is your excuse. I was left defenseless. Just as this book list all the things someone like me would say then states none of it is true so now what do you have to say. It is interesting to me that he says most of the people he interviewed give the same story. Maybe they gave the same story because they all had the similar experiences. Also, since I did not know anyone else was spat on until then I could have told my story a hundred times before this and it would be the same it is here. I never read the book and I never talked to or knew anyone else who had the same experience I had, so I could not be copying someone else and I doubt all of us could conger up the same story having not read the book and not talked to each other about it.

In my case, I never told anyone what happened until the book came out and that was almost 30 years after it happened. I never gave it a thought until then. I really thought what happened to me at SFO was an isolated incident. I did not know that others were saying the same thing until the book came out.

I think it is hard for you to believe me because you are thinking that we are saying the anti war crowd did this. I am not saying that. I don't know the politics of the guy who spat on me. I never gave it a thought and I surely do not want to discredit the anti war movement because I supported it when I came home. He could have been anti war and if so it doesn't make what I say a lie. If that is your reasoning then you are very naive I think. I really do not have any reason to lie about this. The truth is that if the book hadn't came out I would never have talked about it to anyone so how could I have a motive to attack the anti war movement. You cannot use that reasoning on me.

I was driving to work one morning and listening to KPFK. They were having a fund drive. They were giving the book away as a premium to donors and the author was on talking about his book. That morning was the first time I had ever heard that others were spat on. I knew right then that the guy who wrote the book was wrong and I called KPFK to tell them that. I never got a response. Then I started reading posts like yours and realized that there is no way in hell people like you would believe me. I didn't like that idea but there is nothing I can do about it. It is like I said, something we have to live with. Something we have to accept.

This is the truth and this is what happened to me and whether you believe me or not doesn't matter any more to me. I have no reason to lie and I have nothing against the anti war movement, rather than that, I felt I was part of the anti war movement.

I was walking through SFO with my green class A uniform on because I was flying standby and we had to wear our uniforms. I thought to myself I would much rather be wearing civilian clothes but I did not want to buy the plane ticket so I wore my uniform. I was discharged a few hours before and because of that and because I did not support the war I felt really bad wearing the uniform. I was out of the service yet had to dress this way to get home.

I saw a guy and girl walking toward me about 25 yards away. In my head I was telling myself that I was civilian just like them really and no longer a soldier even though I had this stupid uniform on.

I actually thought they were going to be pleasant to me as a returning soldier. You could tell we were returning because of the medals we were given to put on our uniforms. I really thought that I would get a very warm reception from everyone I met.

As the guy got a few feet from me he spat on me. I was shocked. But I thought this is just some loony guy and let it go, I was excited about the idea that I would be home the next day and like I said, we were told that we were subject to the UCMJ for 72 hours after we were discharged and I did not want to do anything that would keep me from getting home. I had just spent 3 days at Ton Su Nut air base waiting for shelling to stop so the plane taking us home could land. It was now 3 days after I was supposed to leave that the plane landed amid the shelling. We were rushed onto busses and put on the plane. It took off in an extreme hurry to get out of there before it got hit. At times I thought I would never make it home so to be safe in the USA and just hours more until I got home was a real turn on. I would have never done anything to prevent that. It took four days and a lot of anxiety to get to that point. Being spat on was nothing compared to my last four days.

I never talked to anyone about it or did anything about it for years until I heard about the guy's book on KPFK. I never knew that anyone else had the same experience until then, 30 years later and I hadn't given it a thought until then.

Now I am not making this up. It happened at SFO on March 19th 1968.

I know that you and the majority of DUers will not believe me and that's OK. It is kind of hard to read what you posted and maybe I should never respond to these posts any more. I realize that it's the way things are just as I accepted that we were not welcomed home like the guys returning from WWII. The funny thing is I can accept the way things are and you can't.
I know you will never believe me but I am not lying here.

[Marie26]

100. I believe you.

FWIW. I'm sorry you had to experience that. Whatever people's feelings are about the war, we should respect the soldiers who fought it.

[ronnie624]

106. An anecdote by an anonymous poster

on an internet message board is proof of nothing.

And again you claim to know the thoughts of thousands of people whom you have never even met:

-I think it is hard for you to believe me because you are thinking that we are saying the anti war crowd did this.
-I know that you and the majority of DUers will not believe me and that's OK.

You do not know what I will or will not believe. In fact, I believe it is possible that such spitting incidents did occur. But I must accept the fact that there is no evidence to support the claims, and it must be obvious to most that such incidents were most certainly not widespread.

You attribute "reasoning" to me that I did not make:

-If that is your reasoning then you are very naive I think
-The truth is that if the book hadn't came out I would never have talked about it to anyone so how could I have a motive to attack the anti war movement.
-You cannot use that reasoning on me.

I made no statements about the anti-war movement, nor do I have any kind of emotional investment in whether or not it is implicated in these spitting claims.

And then, you proceed to obliquely slander me with this:

-Then I started reading posts like yours and realized that there is no way in hell people like you would believe me.


Perhaps you should not invest so much emotionalism in the belief of others in your completely unverifiable stories. There will always be those who demand proof before "believing". Ever will solid facts and evidence point the way to the truth.

[Mountainman]

109. Like I said, it isn't important to me anymore what someone like you thinks

about it.

[ronnie624]

118. In fact,

both the content and tone of your posts say that it is very important to you what others think.

[Mountainman]

121. The issue here isn't important to you is it? Winning this little

debate on this public stage is I can see. Since you are a last word freak, I'll let you have it.

[redqueen]

111. Damn straight.

That myth needs to be put to rest once and for all.

Thanks for your post.

[cobalt1999]

113. Wrong, it did happen.

I saw it happen to my father. When he returned from Vietnam, I was only ten and very glad to see him after so long. About a month later, he (while in uniform) and I went shopping, which I thought was really great as it had been so long since we did anything together. We got approach and almost corner by a group that yelled and screamed at him. I was very confused and scared. Dad was cool though, tried to calm this guys down and when they were walking away, one spit on ground at his feet and another tossed some paper at him.

He calmed me down and tried to explain that some people just don't think, but he wasn't angry at least outwardly.

Later, due to agent orange, he died way too early.

I'll never forget that.

[Horse with no Name]

2. This is insane

These men are under orders. In Washington, many people join the guard to supplement their income and help fight fires.
I don't advocate violence against the military.
I wish those assholes would drive up to DC and find the big white house on Pennsylvania Avenue and see if the Asshole in Chief can give them an audience like he did for Rockey.

[KurtNYC]

72. There is no real evidence that this even happened

no name for the victim, no witnesses, no license plate, no hospital admission, nada.

The odds that this is pure propaganda (which fits with Rumsfailed's recent "morally confused" comments) is very high.

[iamjoy]

3. Republican Attackers, I'm Sure

and they will try to blame crap like this on anti-war liberals.

edited to remove profanity.

[DavidMS]

4. Shades of Counterintelpro...

I don't believe it. But its awfully easy to (that it was ordered from above). Probably local Republican party opperatives trying to discredit the peace movement.

[saigon68]

31. I don't believe it.

Its like the stories of Nam Vets being spit on.

Another Urban Legend.

Its like some Hippy asshole at SFO spits on 3 guys back from Nam.

The people back from Nam, I knew would wipe that guys ASS in a Nano-second. The cops would have stood back and applauded dude getting his ass kicked.

Sounds like a Drug Deal gone Bad.

[Jed Dilligan]

40. Thank you.

I always thought those tales stank to high heaven.

Yet even here we have occasional threads appealing to us, "Don't spit on the troops again!"

Talk about perpetuating the other side's myths.

[saigon68]

45. A Few disruptors like to Spew that spitting shit

I PISS on them

[redqueen]

112. May I take this opportunity to say

:yourock:

[rocktivity]

88. DING DING DING! Anakin Skywalker, you're our grand prize winner!

...Sounds like a Drug Deal gone Bad...

I fully concur with your diagnosis.

:headbang:
rocknation

[rocktivity]

89. DING DING DING! Saigon68, you're our grand prize winner!

...Sounds like a Drug Deal gone Bad...

I fully concur with your diagnosis.

:headbang:
rocknation

[SpiralHawk]

30. Black ops republicons

would not be surprised if it was.

Otherwise, the story is bizarre beyond belief.

But black ops from the Skull & Boner chickenhawk administration? Ummm hmmmm....

[truth2power]

36. I think so, too...

I don't know how to explain it, but my crap-detector was going off, big-time, when I read the article.

I think it's black-ops, and if that sounds too :tinfoilhat: , well, it's the sort of agitprop this administration has engaged in ever since The Simple One was shoehorned into the WH by the SC in 2000.

They jumped out of an SUV? :rofl:

edit: typo

[MADem]

44. They jumped out of an SUV?

Well, we know they didn't have their "Environmentalist/Greenpeace/Treehugger" ticket punched, now, did they??? Perhaps they'll get that next; they're still working on their "antiwar" badges!!! :rofl:

It stinks to high heaven!

[movonne]

5. This could be another rove trick....

[UpInArms]

6. smells of rovian tricks ... eom

[mainer]

7. I question this, just as I question the post-Vietnam vet stories

A lot of the stories about Vietnam vets being spat upon, insulted, etc., turned out to be heard from "friends of friends of friends." I believe there was an article in the NYT, by a journalist who was unable to track down a single soldier who personally experienced it. I have no doubt it must have happened somewhere, but it was apparently so rare that that reporter couldn't find a SINGLE case.

[mitchum]

12. There's an entire book by Lembeck, "The Spitting Image" where...

Lembeck was unable to track down a single soldier who personally experienced it. The "spitting on soldiers story" is just a suburban myth and the propagandistic grandchild of the "stab in the back" myth of post-WWI Germany

[theanarch]

14. H. Bruce Franklin...a Rutgers U. prof. who debunked...

...the MIA/POW myth(s), also researched this and came to the same conclusion. Personally, i have the same experience with a few Vietnam vets whose only "coming home abuse" came from their parents and other pro-war/pro-military relatives, the local VFW/Amer. Legion-types, and some drunks at the local bar...only to find them wallowing in the "recovered" memories of being spit on (and worse) by anti-war protesters...this isn't to say this particular incident didn't happen as reported, but a dose of healthy skepticism would seem in order.

[fishnfla]

71. Once again, a DUer says it happened to him

I dont know if this is against the rules or not. But there is a DUer, ####### who says he got spit on.

EDIT: I removed the name, didnt want to call out. He has posted on it before.

[ismnotwasm]

87. My daughter personally knows soldiers

That were spit upon on return from Iraq in Hawaii. She spent 9 years in the army, and is no fan of the war or bush. Or the army at this point.

I think what happened is that there were a few isolated spitting incidents, that became part of American memory in a large way. (Kind of like bra-burning. Might have happened a couple of times, but what's one of the first things people think of when they hear the word feminist?)

More importantly, Vietnam vets were NOT treated with dignity and respect upon return. Many were thought to be just nuts. They came back to a world many of them didn't even recognize, they couldn't share experiences, there was no infrastructure in place to reintroduce them to society. They were just cut loose. Far too many struggle to this day. As a nurse, I've taken care of many Vietnam era vets. Some of their stories are beyond heartbreaking.

Our soldiers are NOT getting the health care, or the psychological help they need. Never have, unless you're %100 VA covered.

I live up here, and this incident sounds strange to me as well, 5 young men in an SUV? I'm not a fan of conspiracy theories, but it doesn't sound like any peace movement I'm aware of. Maybe it was done to cast shadows on those who are against the war, nothing would surprise me at this point.

At any rate, the little assholes who did it (if they did, and I think they did) need to be caught spend some time in jail.

[Rose Siding]

8. *Violently* anti-war, driving an SUV? Riiiiiiiiiiight.

Darkened windows, buzz cuts, spit shined shoes, too?

[Purveyor]

19. Sounds like "Blackwater" goons to me... n/t

[Eric J in MN]

32. If the incident actually happened, then the attackers were

...working for Republicans.

[KurtNYC]

73. or perhaps the "victim" or the attacker looks like the guy on the left

here:


Google "phil parlock" for that story.

[QuettaKid]

49. BINGO! you got that right.

sounds like a job for the Moyock Mercs.

[glitch]

9. Not buying it. Sounds too much like a hoax.

Much like the spitting on vietnam vets hoax now debunked.

[mahina]

15. Sorry to have to tell you, but it did happen to my father.

Still I thought the same exact thing reading this, that it could not be true. Not unless they were Iraqis maybe.

[glitch]

18. You need to have him contact the people who have debunked it.

They are looking for firsthand accounts from actual victims.

[mitchum]

10. What? They didn't "spit" on him?

I'll bet you good money this is indeed a modern day COINTELPRO-like operation to discredit the peace movement

[fed-up]

11. I hope the guy is ok, sounds like Rove to me...red hats/shirts???

"The vehicle's passengers are described as white males, 20-25 years old. Some of the suspects wore red baseball hats and red sweatshirts during the attack."

[Lydia Leftcoast]

16. Whoa, I wonder if it was the same guys who tried to

foment violence at a Portland protest that I attended a couple of years ago.

Some young guys, all dressed alike, drove into the edge of the demonstration in an SUV, even though the street was blocked off, jumped out of their SUV, and tried to get the crowd interested in tipping over cars.

We were wise to them, though.

No, this sounds like agents provocateurs.

[raccoon]

103. Thanks for that headups, Lydia. nt

[DURHAM D]

13. I don't buy this story - if he was in front of a store where are

the witnesses. Foul.

[SoyCat]

68. Most convenience stores have surveillance cameras on the corners of the

buildings aimed toward the parking lots. So, where's the video evidence?

[Kelvin Mace]

17. I am highly suspicious of this "incident"

sounds like someone is lying.

[0007]

20. Total crap!

[Richard Steele]

21. This one sure smells like bullshit.

Anti-war folks cruising in an black SUV with guns,
wearing red shirts and hats,
looking for random soldiers to beat up?
And then dropping a lame cliché like 'baby killer'?

Must have been some of those liberal Fascists Rummy
warned me about.:sarcasm:

[Mad_Dem_X]

53. Glad I'm not the only one who thinks so

Highly suspicious...how many anti-war people are so violent?

[seasat]

22. Maybe it was a gang initiation?

Black SUV, guns, and similar clothing might be for some sort of street punks gang. They certainly don't sound like any of the antiwar protestors I've associated with.

[struggle4progress]

23. Here's the Sheriff's website. I can't find a reward offer

http://www.co.pierce.wa.us/pc/abtus/ourorg/sheriff/default.htm :shrug:

[Joanne98]

115. There's a 1000.00 reward. Look closer

[struggle4progress]

117. Really? I can't find any mention of the attack whatsoever on the site ..

www.co.pierce.wa.us

If you've found such corroborating evidence, perhaps you could post the link :shrug: ?

[western mass]

24. Hoax

just another hoax to fit the right-wing script writers for a day or two, until they can find some muslims to round up on a fake terror charge.

[KellyW]

25. here is more

http://www.thenewstribune.com/news/updates/story/6065066p-5320308c.html

Most of the Seattle media have not picked-up the story (who wouldn't be skeptical ?)

Note this bit of info-it supposedly happened at 8:30 in the morning ?

"The soldier’s injuries were not immediately known."

[Judi Lynn]

28. 8:30 a.m.? Who doesn't leap out of bed, ready to leap into some

mixed scuffling in front of a convenience store, during the morning RUSH HOUR?

The driver, not one to mince his words, lept out, flaunted his sidearm, AND shouted an imaginative medley of insults. He spoke loudly AND carried a fire stick! This all happened as people came and went, getting coffee, and gasoline and donuts.

[skypilot]

65. 8:30 in the morning?

Everyone knows that we anti-war, tree-hugging, bleeding hearts don't get out of bed before noon. We all just want to collect welfare and not work, so why be up so early? :sarcasm:

[Trajan]

26. This is bullshit ....

Peace Activists do NOT resort to unprovoked violence ....

COMPLETE Bullshit ....

[Evergreen Emerald]

35. that was my thought Trojan

Peace activists don't resort to violence.

[Marie26]

69. Who says that they're peace activists?

The description sounds more like a group of fraternity members, jocks or white supremacists. I wonder if there's a university nearby?

[Judi Lynn]

27. Story makes the papers just after Rumsfeld's masterful observation

that people who oppose the war are fascists!


Timing is everything.

Thanks, seriousstan.

[Hekate]

29. I hope he recovers and the cops catch the s.o.b.s

And may the TRUTH come out. This stinks to high heaven -- yes, it stinks of Rove, but most of all it just stinks.

Hekate

[AzDar]

33. I can't say for certain, of course, but with Chimpo out on a multi-state

'Support Our Insane War Tour' RIGHT NOW, I'm guessing it's Rovian...
:puke:

[Cerridwen]

34. I'm with saigon68 on this...

it reeks of a drug deal gone bad and the soldier trying to divert attention away from his involvement.

And, I too, want to hear from the witnesses.

[ChickMagic]

37. I can't believe they're reviving this old saw

Yes, I can. I wonder how much Rove paid these people? :grr:

[chat_noir]

38. remembering Rove

The latest dirty trick took place earlier this month, when a videotape was apparently taken from the offices of Bush media advisor Mark McKinnon. The tape, along with copies of other debate briefing materials, was then mailed to the office of Gore ally, lobbyist, and former U.S. Rep. Thomas Downey, where it arrived on Sept. 13. Only a handful of Bush campaign staffers had access to the materials, including Rove, McKinnon, communications director Karen Hughes, campaign manager Joe Allbaugh, campaign chairman Don Evans, and policy director Josh Bolten.

Although no suspects have been named, the FBI, which is investigating the matter, has told several media outlets that it believes the tape was sent by someone inside the Bush camp, presumably in an attempt to entrap the Gore campaign. And given Rove's history, which includes more than a passing familiarity with dirty tricks, many pundits believe Rove is the chief suspect. Rove did not return calls from the Chronicle.

http://www.austinchronicle.com/gyrobase/Issue/story?oid=oid%3A78792

Rove-Gannon Connection?


Tired and timid are two adjectives never applied to Rove. The architect of the Bush victories in 2000 and 2004 came through the ranks of college Republicans with the late Lee Atwater, and their admitted and alleged dirty tricks are the legends many young political operatives dream of pulling off. So when Jeff Gannon, White House "reporter" for Talon "News," was unmasked last week, the leap to a possible Rove connection was unavoidable. Gannon says that he met Rove only once, at a White House Christmas party, and Gannon is kind of small potatoes for Rove at this point in his career.

But Rove's dominance of White House and Republican politics, Gannon's aggressively partisan work and the ease with which he got day passes for the White House press room the past two years make it hard to believe that he wasn't at least implicitly sanctioned by the "boy genius." Rove, who rarely gave on-the-record interviews to the MSM (mainstream media), had time to talk to GOPUSA, which owns Talon.

GOPUSA and Talon are both owned by Bobby Eberle, a Texas Republican and business associate of conservative direct-mail guru Bruce Eberle who says that Bobby is from the "Texas branch of the Eberle clan." Bobby Eberle told The New York Times that he created Talon to build a news service with a conservative slant and "if someone were to see 'GOPUSA,' there's an instant built-in bias there." No kidding.

One of Gannon's first projects was an attempt to discredit the South Dakota Argus Leader, South Dakota's major paper, and its longtime political writer, David Kranz. According to the National Journal, which reported on this last November, Gannon wrote a series of articles in the summer of 2003 alleging that Kranz, who went to college with Democratic Sen. Tom Daschle, was not only sympathetic to him but was an actual part of the Daschle campaign. These articles then got a huge amount of play on the blogs of John Lauck and Jason Van Beek, and were picked up by other conservative sites and talk radio. The paper was bombarded with messages about its bias and acknowledges that these had an impact on its coverage.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2005/02/18/opinion/lynch/main675050.shtml

[saigon68]

46. ROVE ARRESTED

[Chemical Bill]

39. Maybe he hit his wife, so his B-I-L jumped him.

He wouldn't want to admit that, so he made shit up.

Bill

[xchrom]

41. bullshit. n/t

[Blue_Tires]

42. i would think this was somehow gang-related

but that 'baby killer' line goes over the believability meter

[Az_lefty]

50. Was this Guardsman on orders or something?

it's certainly not a drill weekend in the middle of the week. If on orders, what's he doing walking to a convenience store by his home at 0830, he should already be at work. No witnesses? There's too much to this story that doesn't add up.

[neuvocat]

51. Since when do anti-war protestors drive SUV's?

Why were they driving an american-made SUV?

Isn't Chevy a major contractor with the U.S. government? Don't you find that highly coincidental?

Isn't it odd that they're all white males?

When do people characterized as pacifists by the right gang up on individuals and beat them up?

Don't they remember the pre-war "argument" that advocated beating up anti-war protestors until he or she finally saw their point of view?

How come the guardsman was in uniform (I've served in active duty and it was VERY seldom that you wore your uniform off-post even then)? Why was he dressed like that off-post?

What were these people doing with a gun? Aren't they supposed to be anti-war?

Why didn't the article mention anything about any witnesses?

Can you put it past a guy to use this as a setup after flying to Iraq to show off a plastic turkey on a photo op, fly on a fighter jet and wear a uniform for a photo-op, raise terror alerts only around election times and go to war over weapons that still haven't been found yet?

[Taoschick]

57. Believe it or not

Anti-war protesters do indeed drive SUVs. We've got a rally scheduled for tomorrow in Taos and there will be a lot of protesters arriving in SUVs. When you live in some parts of the country, 4WD is mandatory unless you live in town.

In any event, there is nothing in the story to indicate they were Peace activists. That's a conclusion that never crossed my mind. Heck, they could be anarchists (unlikely given the vehicle) or a bunch of pissed off thugs looking for a target.

[Mad_Dem_X]

52. Is this for real?

I ask because the anti-war people I know would never even think of attacking a soldier, and especially not point a weapon at the soldier.

[KellyW]

54. Dave Ross KIRO 710am covered the story

many callers were skeptical.
He had the Pierce CO Sheriff on. New facts are...
The soldier is black and the attackers white.
The Sheriff's office did not contact the media. The story is being pushed by the alleged victim's family.

[Marie26]

55. Sounds like some

racist punks looking for an excuse for a fight.

[AlienGirl]

64. I wonder if the attackers were neo-nazis?

There are quite a few of them in Pierce County. They are violent, racist, but also oppose the Iraq war (on the basis of it being part of the "Jewish conspiracy").

Tucker

[theanarch]

93. DING DING DING DING DING...

...i think we have a winner here...

[Bozita]

56. Jerry Lembcke already wrote a book on this bullshit -- Take a peek:

http://www.slate.com/id/1005224/

Although Nexis overflows with references to protesters gobbing on Vietnam vets, and Bob Greene's 1989 book Homecoming: When the Soldiers Returned From Vietnam counts 63 examples of protester spitting, Jerry Lembcke argues that the story is bunk in his 1998 book The Spitting Image: Myth, Memory, and the Legacy of Vietnam (click here to buy it). Lembcke, a professor of sociology at Holy Cross and a Vietnam vet, investigated hundreds of news accounts of antiwar activists spitting on vets. But every time he pushed for more evidence or corroboration from a witness, the story collapsed--the actual person who was spat on turned out to be a friend of a friend. Or somebody's uncle. He writes that he never met anybody who convinced him that any such clash took place.

While Lembcke doesn't prove that nobody ever expectorated on a serviceman--you can't prove a negative, after all--he reduces the claim to an urban myth. In most urban myths, the details morph slightly from telling to telling, but at least one element survives unchanged. In the tale of the spitting protester, the signature element is the location: The protester almost always ambushes the serviceman at the airport--not in a park, or at a bar, or on Main Street. Also, it's not uncommon for the insulted serviceman to have flown directly in from Vietnam. In the most dramatic telling of the spitting story, First Blood (1982), the first installment of the series about a vengeful Vietnam vet, the airport is the scene of the outrage. John Rambo, played by Sylvester Stallone, gives a speech about getting spat upon. Rambo says:
"It wasn't my war. You asked me, I didn't ask you. And I did what I had to do to win. But somebody wouldn't let us win. Then I come back to the world and I see all those maggots at the airport. Protesting me. Spitting. Calling me baby killer. ... Who are they to protest me? Huh?"

Of course, the myth of the spitting protester predates the Rambo movies, but how many vets--many of whom didn't get the respect they thought they deserved after serving their country--retrofitted this memory after seeing the movie? Soldiers returning from lost wars have long healed their psychic wounds by accusing their governments and their countrymen of betrayal, Lembcke writes. Also, the spitting story resonates with biblical martyrdom. As the soldiers put the crown of thorns on Jesus and led him to his crucifixtion, they beat him with a staff and spat on him.

Lembcke uncovered a whole lot of spitting from the war years, but the published accounts always put the antiwar protester on the receiving side of a blast from a pro-Vietnam counterprotester. Surely, he contends, the news pages would have given equal treatment to a story about serviceman getting the treatment. Then why no stories in the newspaper morgues, he asks?

Lastly, there are the parts of the spitting story up that don't add up. Why does it always end with the protester spitting and the serviceman walking off in shame? Most servicemen would have given the spitters a mouthful of bloody Chiclets instead of turning the other cheek like Christ. At the very least, wouldn't the altercations have resulted in assault and battery charges and produced a paper trail retrievable across the decades?

more...

[underpants]

58. WOW

well that one is laid to rest then. BAM!

[Judi Lynn]

59. Outstanding! Great to see this. Thank you, Bozita! n/t

[Aristus]

60. The right-wingers must be thrilled. They must just tickled pink.

Now they get to blame us for not "Supporting The Troops".

Does anyone seriously believe this was perpetrated by anyone who believes in peace and opposes the war?

[Bozita]

61. What's the penalty for filing a false police report in the state of Wash?

Is it a felony?

[rman]

62. Staged, to be blamed on the "intellectually confused"

(that's us)

We don't give them enough reason to crack down hard on the opposition (that's us again), so they fabricate a reason. Deceptive and manipulative as always.

[leveymg]

63. Question: Any open-air drug markets near 138th Street in Parkland?

That might indicate the real circumstances he was allegedly beaten up.

[sendero]

66. "brutally attacked"..

... but didn't require medical treatment.

Yeah, uh-huh.

[karlrschneider]

74. This has my Parlock detector smoking

...

[chat_noir]

75. one Vietnam era "military man" that deserved to be spat on

www.awolbush.com




DESERTER: THE STORY OF GEORGE W. BUSH AFTER HE QUIT THE TEXAS AIR NATIONAL GUARD http://www.glcq.com/bush_at_arpc1.htm















$10,000 reward was never collected

[tritsofme]

76. National Guardsman Brutally Attacked In Pierce County

PARKLAND, Wash. -- The Pierce County Sheriff's Department is searching for five people who allegedly attacked a uniformed National Guardsmen walking along 138th Street in Parkland Tuesday afternoon.

The soldier was walking to a convenience store when a sport utility vehicle pulled up alongside him and the driver asked if he was in the military and if he had been in any action.

The driver then got out of the vehicle, displayed a gun and shouted insults at the victim. Four other suspects exited the vehicle and knocked the soldier down, punching and kicking him.

“And during the assault the suspects called him a baby killer. At that point they got into the car and drove off and left him on the side of the road,” Detective Ed Troyer with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department told KIRO 7 Eyewitness News.

<SNIP>

http://www.kirotv.com/news/9765757/detail.html

Something seems fishy about this story.

It seems like it could have been written by Rush Limbaugh.

[bahrbearian]

77. " five people who allegedly attacked "

[Lerkfish]

78. Parlockian

funny no suspects, just this guy's story.

[kenny blankenship]

84. No suspects, no witnesses

but you know how antiwar types like to cruise around in their black SUVs, armed at all hours, looking for uniformed victims to pound the crap out of. So yeah, it's very likely-this story-despite the lack of any suspects or witnesses. A very likely story.

[William769]

79. I reserve the right to comment until further facts are gathered.

[Lerkfish]

80. that is a comment in and of itself, btw.

IMHO the "baby killer' part of the story reveals it to be Parlockian

[Straight Shooter]

108. I second that.

"Baby killer"? Oh, please. Isn't "mother-fucker" the word of choice when stomping on a victim? (Of course, there are others, too.)

[peacebird]

81. is this part of Roves "drum up support for our troops" effort?

:wtf:
show a poor soldier beaten and called a "baby killer" by a bunch of anti-war types? Course the fly in THAT ointment is anti-war types tend to be seekers of PEACE not violence....

[happyslug]

82. Dupilcate

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=102&topic_id=2486202

[acmejack]

83. This is like two days old.,

LBN as a currency requirement, It is newsworthy just not breaking, thanx.

[Julius Civitatus]

85. Something smells...

Let me see...

- No witnesses
- Attackers (5) left in their SUV, nobody saw them or their car
- Attackers shouted "baby killer" to the soldier (reminiscent of Vietnam protests after My Lai), something wingnuts always pull to attack the anti-war movement

Wonder if they had "MoveOn.com" t-shirts, and Howard Dean buttons pinned to their shirts, and copies of Michael Moore's "Fahrenheit" 911 playing in the SUV's AV system as well...

:sarcasm:

There's something very fishy and strange about this.

[MikeyJones]

91. They should arrest the bastards and send them to Iraq as punishment

As far as I'm concerned that'll do more to teach them to shut their fucking mouth than anything some idiot judge and a year in jail and a slap on the wrist could. Actually being forced to go there against your will, to go away from your friends and family and travel half way around the world to enforce a chimp's wet dreams isn't exactly something anybody should be forced to deal with.

I say if and when they find the bastards prosecute them to the full extent of the law.

[MikeyJones]

92. If it does turn out to be a hoax then it wouldn't surprise me

Despite my initial angry comments if this turns out to be a Rovian hoax then all I can say is that that and the lowering of gas prices are the last two rounds the Republikkkans have in their gun.

[orleans]

95. 2 things:

(i googled, trying to find more detail in other articles, and can't. the "victim" is not identified by name)

i did find out--on google's page:
1. "Witness Claims Guardsman Attack Not What It Seems
KIROtv.com, WA - 4 hours ago
PARKLAND, Wash. -- A witness who spoke to KIRO 7 Eyewitness News on the condition that he remains anonymous said he saw Tuesday’s ... "

http://news.google.com/news?hl=en&ned=&ie=UTF-8&ncl=http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/283385_parkland31ww.html

but when you click on the link it says: "Article Not Available
The story you are trying to view is no longer available through this Web site."
http://www.kirotv.com/news/9772949/detail.html

and

2. "Though the victim is black and the attackers were white, Troyer said detectives do not believe race was a motive for the assault.

"They weren't interested in his race as much as they were interested in his being in the military," Troyer said.

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/local/283385_parkland31ww.html

[lostnfound]

98. Another attack by 4 white guys on a black guardsmen

happened 2 years ago, though they didn't pretend to be peaceniks:

http://www.lewiscountyherald.com/5103news.htm#three

[Robb]

101. UPDATE: Yanked story, Google cache:

The KIRO website says the "story is no longer available," but the Google News cache still holds this tidbit:

Witness Claims Guardsman Attack Not What It Seems
KIROtv.com, WA - 12 hours ago
... We're not saying that it didn't happen but we are definitely going to take a look at some inconsistencies,” Detective Ed Troyer with the Pierce County Sheriff ...

:wtf:

[Marie26]

102. More complete story

This is just from the Google cache of the yanked story. It's pretty interesting.

"Witness Claims Guardsman Attack Not What It Seems"

PARKLAND, Wash. -- A witness who spoke to KIRO 7 Eyewitness News on the condition that he remains anonymous said he saw Tuesday’s assault involving a Washington National Guardsman in Parkland.

The witness claimed he saw at least three men in military uniforms confront and assault a man dressed in civilian clothing. "There was an SUV but there was three guys that were in a military suit that came out to jump that guy. Now I think it's kind of pathetic for them to do that," the eyewitness told KIRO 7.

Investigators with the Pierce County Sheriff’s Department are looking into the eyewitness’s claim and the inconsistencies with the report filed by Alexander Powell, the Guardsman who said he was attacked and beaten because he was wearing a military uniform.

Powell contacted a different local television station about the incident before it had been investigated by the sheriff’s department, and then declined to talk about the case, claiming the National Guard told him not to. ...

"We're not saying that it didn't happen but we are definitely going to take a look at some inconsistencies," Detective Ed Troyer with the Pierce County Sheriff Dept. ...

[create.peace]

120. veerry interesting

A witness who came forward after the incident told KIRO 7 Eyewitness News a different story about what happened on Tuesday morning, but deputies said the witness later changed that story when they interviewed him.

The witness told police he saw several men in uniform beat a man in civilian clothes, but later changed his account to back the guardsman.

http://www.kirotv.com/news/9765757/detail.html




i had my doubts from the beginning

[NorthernSpy]

104. oh, I am *so* not buying this!

Sure, there may have been a confrontation of sorts between this Guardsman Powell and some other persons. But I'd bet money that it didn't happen the way Powell claims it did.

Not an impossible tale, necessarily. But a somewhat fishy one in my opinion (as the detective in charge of the investigation apparently agrees).

[redqueen]

114. The story is back, apparently, and has changed:

From the link above

New Questions In Case Of Attack On Guardsman

POSTED: 4:33 pm PDT August 30, 2006
UPDATED: 9:21 am PDT September 1, 2006

(snip)

A witness who came forward after the incident told KIRO 7 Eyewitness News a different story about what happened on Tuesday morning, but deputies said the witness later changed that story when they interviewed him.

The witness told police he saw several men in uniform beat a man in civilian clothes, but later changed his account to back the guardsman.

Investigators said the witness's stories were inconsistent with the guardsman's, and they are back to "square one" in the investigation.

(more at link)

[Joanne98]

116. I started a thread on this yesterday.....

I was on at freeperville looking for the new outrage and saw this story. I didn't believe it. It reminded of that mom/son team who were called babykillers in a parade in Washington. It also reminded me of Parlock. It will be interesting to find out if there was any freeper involvement. They were so interested to push the story.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x2020248