IDF blows up massive Hizbullah bunker

[ECH1969]

The IDF has blown up a Hizbullah bunker, uncovered 400 meters from the northern border near Rosh Hanikra.

Deputy Commander of the Golani Brigade, Lieutenant General Gasam Alian, said that "this is a bunker that sprawls on the ground two kilometers, with shooting positions of molded concrete." He added that the bunker was advanced and connected to telephone lines.

About a week ago, IDF forces shot to death three Hizbullah gunmen near the village of Shama in the western sector of south Lebanon. None of the troops was injured.

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3296419,00.html

[MiaCulpa]

1. Hizbullah bunker

I hope that's not code for 'we hit a large crippled children's hospital.'

[rodeodance]

2. this is not much of ceasefire/peace IF Israel can continue this activity.

......The army also claimed that the operation did nor constitute a violation of the ceasefire agreement, as the IDF said it reserves the right to prevent arms smuggling to the terror group.

[Igel]

37. They didn't engage Hezbollah.

They blew up some concrete and dirt. In territory they held, presumably with no Hezbites around. Without hurting anybody, it seems.

No shooting at anybody, no injuries, no violation of the ceasefire, IMHO.

[truth2power]

3. I thought there was supposed to be a cease fire. n/t

[Solo_in_MD]

6. Boy were you fooled

The 1701 is a toothless shell. The UN can not get 1/3 of the troops estimated to enforce. Couple that with the refusal of Hezbollah to disarm and the inability of the Lebanese army or UNIFIL to do it, its not a ceasefire, its a time out. The worst part is that if it does resume, the IDF will not be nearly so restrained.

The key at this point is for Hezbollah and Syria to keep it zipped and chill until Israel pulls out. Considering how testoserone fueled the region is, I am doubtful that will happen.

[The Stranger]

18. You mean the IDF will murder even more innocent Lebanese?

The worst part is that if it does resume, the IDF will not be nearly so restrained.

Well that is a relief. Are they going cry foul when the Lebanese fight back?

[Solo_in_MD]

22. The IDF was quite restrained in the first round.

Yes, I said restrained. Considering the amount of ordinance fired, the loss of life among non-combatants was amazingly low. They really did try to minimize casualties. If they had not, WIA/KIA civilians would have been in the 10s of 1000s.

The IDF was expected to flatten Hezbollah, and clearly they could have. It would have meant scorched earth to the Litani and into the Bekaa Valley. Instead they tried to take a limited approach, chiefly air power. However, you can not root out local militias defending their own terrain that way. Hezbollah was left standing but bleeding and in that part of the world, if you are alive you won the fight, especially against Israel. Syria still considers the 1973 war a victory...even though without super power intervention, Israeli armor would have been in Damascus. Welcome to the wacky world of ME politics.

With Iran and Syria continuing to funnel arms and funds to Hezbollah. The Lebanese government is trapped. If they allow anything to interfere with the resupply of Hezbollah, Syria blocks their only land access. If they do not, Hezbolloah will rearm and go at it with the IDF again. In all cases the French lead UNIFIL is useless and is not going to do anything.

Call me a cynic, but IMO the UN redefined 1701 to the point of uselessness and has condemned the Lebanese people to another round of terror. This time Syria, who is feeling pretty spunky right now, may roll in. The right answer was to disarm Hezbollah and to help Lebanon gain control of its territory and border. Unfortunately, it does not look like that is going to happen.

[ShockediSay]

26. "restrained?" PIGSHIT!

imho

[Solo_in_MD]

29. Your opinion is indeed quite humble

The numbers are clear. Between leafleting, PGMs etc, the civilian casualty were quite low compared to what they easily could have been. Some would argue relatively lower than compared to the US did in Iraq, though its not clear there is a an adequate basis for comparison.

That does not mean I agree with what Israel did or how they went about it.

Careful with the swine excrement, its gets the locals edgy.

[The Stranger]

51. 1000 dead from precision guided munitions can only mean intent.

Israel meant to hit civilans -- the better to terrorize the population. This also explains hitting civilian caravans of cars after ordering them to leave.

[oblivious]

31. They ran out of bombs. How restrained is that?

[Solo_in_MD]

33. Actually they didn't run out of GBUs

they needed some specialized ones (bunker busters) and wanted enough of an inventory in case Syria got stupid. Israel also makes a fair amount of ordinance in country.

[me b zola]

42. cynic is not what I would call you

[Solo_in_MD]

43. thats my self asessement, There are other who think I am being optimistic

or to quote Rogers and Hammerstien "I'm jsut a cockeyed optimist..."

Seriously, I have some hands on in this kind of stuff. I am also not endorsing the Iraeli positions and the actions they took. However, many here have no clue what warfare is really like, nor ME politics.

I expect 1701 to fail due to a rearmed Hezbollah and Israeli intransigence. When it does it is going to get really really ugly. I don't want that to happened, but it of all the likely futures, IMO that has the highest probabilitiy. Should I be right, its going to be really ugly when it does.

[bemildred]

45. I was thinking "gullible" or "Rube", but there are so many choices. nt

[The Stranger]

50. That is patently false. Israel murdered innocent civilians.

With the latest in precision-guided munitions, Israel bombed apartment buildings -- apartment buildings -- wherein innocent Lebanese civilians were living -- many with no ties and some even opposed to Hezbolllah -- and murdered them.

This was a catastrophe in every sense of the word for Israel. It is NOT likely to send the IDF back in to repeat this catastrophe. A brief glimpse of the investigations and questioning going on in Israel reveals this fact.

[truth2power]

30. Restrained??? *choke*...

Wait a minute while I pick myself up off the floor...

> > > >


<sigh> Words fail! There's nothing I could possibly say that would be acceptable within the constraints here. :(

[Solo_in_MD]

32. Indeed restrained

Read again what I posted. The IDF could has scorched the earth. There would have been no doubt as to who won, but the devastation and killing would have been much worse. If it restarts, I expect it will be.

[truth2power]

36. Scorched the earth? I don't doubt

they could have done it, but should they?

Ya know...back when all this first started, in July, I had a phone conversation with a friend. I indicated how appalled I was at the destruction the IDF was inflicting on the Lebanese people and their infrastructure. Well, he started yelling at me. He kept yelling and yelling, and it came around to the issue of the two captured soldiers.

Now let me digress a moment. I subscribe to the idea that it was never about the soldiers, that this was in the works for a year or more and as I think Sy Hersh said, some Israeli official came to DC in June and worked it out with Cheney about how much the US "would bear" in terms of an attack. I don't expect you'll agree with me, but maybe we can set it aside for purposes of this anecdote.

Back to the phone conversation. I said,"So, over the capture of two soldiers, Israel has the right to lay waste to a country? He said, (still shouting)"YES." I continued, "So, if a country's soldiers are captured, they have a right to nuke an entire country and turn everything into glass?" He said, "Yes". <I'm not making ths up.>

Uh..this lack of attention to proportionality is eventually going to get us all dead. That would include his and my grandchildren. Not. A. Plan. What is wrong with people?

[ShockediSay]

38. IPF??

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,3-2289232,00.html

[Solo_in_MD]

40. I'll bite, whats the IPF?

[hack89]

34. If the Hezbollah fighters had abandoned it ...

what's the big deal? Since they have to be disarmed, why do they need large, military fortifications?

[me b zola]

41. The big deal is that they are blowing up things in a sovereign nation

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Double T]

5. Backpedaling to support Israel's reason for going to war......

why is the Israeli Government continually violating the truce???

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[stepnw1f]

8. Why?

Can you expound on your name calling or are you too emotional to say anything else?

[Name removed]

17. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[mike_c]

10. at least I'm a civil moron....

Sheesh. Welcome to DU. Enjoy your stay.

[hack89]

35. Why are you so certain it is a violation?

They are prohibited from offensive attacks - if the bunker is in territory they hold and had been abandoned by Hezbollah, what's the problem? Why should Hezebollah get it back if they are to be disarmed and kept out of the southern portion of Lebanon?

Perhaps you could reference the portion of the cease fire aggreement you think they violated.

[Tesha]

48. Because they can. UN resolutions are never binding on Israel.

> Why is the Israeli Government continually violating the truce???

Because they can. UN resolutions are never binding on Israel,
especially with their big brother on the UN Security Council
vetoing most of them to start with.

Tesha

[wakeme2008]

9. is this a valid LBN source..

:shrug:

[mike_c]

11. doubtful....

eom

[dipsydoodle]

12. Maybe not

but it's more noticeable and easier to find here than the Lounge, :rofl:

[Behind the Aegis]

13. why shouldn't it be?

it has been used several times before.

[MrPrax]

14. Yes...

Ynews shows up occasionally to bring us up to date on the latest...

Here's a picture showing members of the IDF demolition team...


Blow'd Up Real Good

[MADem]

15. Well, the bunkers do exist

If you consider BBC and the Guardian to be "acceptable" sources. There is a big tiff going on right now about night vision equipment found in them--is it Brit, did it come from Iran, or not?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5269918.stm

Night-vision equipment believed to be British has been discovered in Hezbollah command bunkers in southern Lebanon, Israeli forces have said.
The Foreign Office is trying to ascertain the kit manufacturer and how it may have ended up in militant hands.

It is thought that the equipment was not among a batch sold to Iran in 2003 under a special export licence for use against drug smugglers.

The government only permits supply of such equipment for non-military use.

The Times said checks were being made to compare serial numbers on the equipment found by the Israelis with the ones legitimately exported to Iran. .....

http://www.guardian.co.uk/uklatest/story/0,,-6028036,00.html

...There was nothing to suggest they were part of a batch sold by Britain to Iran in 2003 under a special export licence, a source said.

Reports that Israel had made a formal protest to the British Government were also untrue....

[ConcernedCanuk]

19. "tiff" about "Night Vision Equipment" - what about Israel's nukes?

.
.
.

Gee

Goggles against nukes!

Time to invade!!!

[MADem]

21. Good grief, if you want to talk about them, start a thread on them

Why bring that matter in at all, except to derail the original topic of bunkers? I mentioned the goggles simply because they were FOUND in the bunkers, not because I was attempting to make a comparison between used goggles and unused...nukes.

If they'd reported on finding a few dozen cases of SPAM up in there, I would have posted that, instead. From a Muslim perspective, that might have been a more interesting story....

My object was to provide a secondary source that discussed the original subject, which was bunkers.

[bemildred]

23. The night vision story appears to have been horseshit.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2466627&mesg_id=2477104

[Andromeda]

46. You mean like the stuff I'm reading here?

[bemildred]

49. No I mean verifiably horseshit. Read the link.

Most of the horseshit you read here is not verifiable one way or another.

[MADem]

52. The two links I provided said as much

My point in providing them was not to aver that the equipment was anything that was export-controlled, it was to provide a separate source with regard to the existence of bunkers. That's all.

[bemildred]

53. No problem then.

I had not realized the existence of the bunkers was in question.

[Tom Joad]

16. I understand that Israel also has bunkers filled with arms, and is

importing weapons meant to be used against civilians from abroad.

[lumpy]

20. Really? ... and of course a goodly

supply of clusterbombs waiting in the bunkers.

[Solo_in_MD]

24. No proof the the IDF struck civilian areas without reason

And even less that they intentionally went after civilains.

Some may emerge, but there is nothing definitve at this time. The recent Amnesty International arm waving is little more that hyperbole. Without knowing why the IDF stuck a particular place, all anyone has is conjecture and accusations. There are some IAF tactical videos on YouTube that are worth looking at...clearly cherry picked, but still valid.

[Tom Joad]

25. Why believe Amnesty International when you have a spokesperson

from the Israel military. Exactly.

[xultar]

27. Apparently the cease fire doesn't apply to Israel. I don't wanna hear

any fuckin shit when the people in Lebanon get pissed and fight back against Israel continuing to go on their land and blow up shit.

[Zhade]

28. I fail to understand why this source is seen as reputable.

That aside, is there anyone BESIDES the lying IDF that confirms this was a Hezbollah bunker?

And since when did "cease-fire" mean "keep attacking"?

[Hardrada]

39. The IDF and fellow traveling spokespersons lie continually.

Luckily they lied themselves into LOSING a war. Best thing to happen since Nixon resigned! Perish all imperialism!

[w4rma]

44. The Israeli leadership appears to need parental guidence. (nt)

[GeorgeGist]

47. Curiously...

I can't find any mention of this from any news source outside of Israel.

edit for spelling