US preacher defends belief women can't teach men

[IChing]

NEW YORK (Reuters) - A U.S. Baptist preacher has publicly defended himself for firing a female Sunday School teacher after more than 50 years on the job because he believes the Bible bans women from teaching men.


Watertown First Baptist Church Pastor Tim LaBouf, also a city council member in Watertown, N.Y., said women could fulfill any role or responsibility they wanted to -- outside the church.

"My belief is that the qualifications for both men and women teaching spiritual matters in a church setting end at the church door, period," LaBouf said in a statement on the church Web site (http://www.nnyinfo.com/firstbaptist).

LaBouf and the church board fired Mary Lambert, 81, earlier this month in a letter that cited the scriptural qualifications for Sunday School teachers, Lambert said.

"They quote First Timothy Two, 11-14: A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man, she must be silent," Lambert said, reading from the letter>>>>snip

http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20060822/us_nm/religion_women_dc

[Davros]

1. Ridiculous

If it wasn't for a woman, mr. LaBouf wouldn't be around to say such nonsense. What is he afraid of?

[Sequoia]

7. Close down the church.

Don't show up for service. That'll learn him.

[zreosumgame]

21. on the other hand...

it really points up the need for good contraception, just think if his mom had had that choice, the human race would be that much better off.

[bluerum]

2. ahhh,, the bliss of self imposed ignorance.

[pooja]

3. Fear blacks, fear gays, fear muslims, fear mexicans, and now full

circle...FEAR WOMEN!!! Maybe its because we are the first to forgive and shell out love, not bombs

[Tace]

4. I'm Willing To Bet That He Ends Up Losing His Job

[Archae]

8. After...

Half the congregation gives that fundy preacher the finger and leaves.

That "preacher" has made a complete ass of himself nationally.

BTW, did you notice that every time he's actually shown in the news, he has a little American flag prominently on his lapel?

Even money he's a "Bush was anointed by God" asshole as well.

[Ezlivin]

9. I'll take that bet

As a former fundy, I can tell you that this guy is spot-on in his interpretation of the Bible. He can't go wrong with his congregation if he sticks to this line of "reasoning", for it is the bread-and-butter of fundamental theology.

And all you have to do is look at Jimmy Swaggart. He was caught screwing street whores (twice!) and he's still preaching from the same pulpit.

[atreides1]

11. One problem with his reasoning

Paul wasn't limiting this to the church, he was talking about everyday life as well.

[melnjones]

14. From where do you draw that conclusion? nt

[Bluerthanblue]

27. we're not supposed to braid our hair or wear any jewlery including

wedding rings either-

I'm a FF too- and so thankful to be free- I bought the 'submission' concept hook, line, and sinker-
My church wouldn't even allow a man to be an elder if he, or his wife had ever been married before- (the husband of one wife) pretty frickin extreem as I look back on it-....
sad,
really sad.

[951-Riverside]

31. I don't think we're supposed to have mirrors or cameras too

Masturbation along with swearing, sex before marriage and looking nude family members are all big NO NO's. How many of these rules do you think this fat head porker has broken in his lifetime.

[Tellurian]

66. When God hears of it, she'll give him the boot!

[jody]

5. How is that different from believing women can't be ministers/priests? n/t

[Kickoutthejams23]

18. It isn't

Say what you want but these Taliban Christians make me sick. I believe people should have the freedom to worship a chair if that makes them happy (Neil Diamondolgy perhaps) but I wouldn't vote that person to public office (everyone stand sitting is a sin) Every religion has some wacky ideas (cows are sacred, Pope is infallible, no pork Thursdays whatever)and thats okay by me. But voters should take a long and hard look at someone whose religious beliefs are an anathema to American values. (not just fundies mind you I'm looking your way Mohammad) If your an American first and uphold American values over your own religious peculiarities then fine if not I say vote the bigoted bastard out.

[jody]

24. Please describe American values that you vigorously support. n/t

[Kickoutthejams23]

25. Freedom to worship of course.

And the United States Constitution including of course (the bill of rights and freedom of speech.) If someone honestly believes other Americans are naturally inferior due to their race and gender they simply have no place in public life or discourse.

[jody]

35. Looks like you exclude most who practice a religion because in general

religions recognize different roles for men and woman.

Why should a very small fringe group dictate to the overwhelming majority of U.S. citizens?

[Kickoutthejams23]

39. Jody I'm a christian

But I do not believe woman should be seen and not heard. (Nor do I believe my religion supports this) Now there are hundreds of forms of Christianity (and Judaism and Muslims) so for those that need to feel superior (or inferior for you ladies out there)there is a congregation out there for you. It's one thing to feel woman shouldn't be priests (personally I think woman make excellent priests) and yet be fine with a female CEO or Senator or maybe just boss. It's another to say woman should be seen and not heard.

There are religious beliefs that are toxic to the pluralism on which this nation is founded and continues to run on to this day. (A faulty pluralism to be sure but pluralism just the same.) People who actively act on these beliefs simply are unfit for public office. This is my opinion (I'm hardly looking to make a law banning Fundies from running.)If someone chooses to not drink or eat pork thats fine. If someone chooses to ban alcohol and pork from everyone that is not fine. If someone wishes to practice Sharia law in his own house thats fine. If someone feels that Sharia law trumps American laws (even for his own wife) that is simply not acceptable.

I would never vote for someone who is so ignorant he felt woman can't teach or he believed in Sharia law. (Whether he claims to be a Christan or not) While we tolerate such views in ones private thoughts and household they are simply not acceptable in a elected public figure.

[jody]

43. I understand your point but since many or most politicians nominally

practice some form of religion then there is an automatic conflict between the doctrine of their religion and the requirements of political office.

Case in point is Dubya who is still a member of the United Methodist Church but he does not follow UMC guidelines particularly its Social Principles. :shrug:

[izzie]

6. In The USA in 2006. What next?The Taliban are here.

And to think my father always said it was more important that women be educated than men as they raise the children.

[melnjones]

10. dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2467304

[SpiralHawk]

12. LaBaffoon

Grande

[customerserviceguy]

13. As an agnostic

I could give a flying crap about what gender this huckster thinks are appropriate to spread lies disguised as legends. I can only hope this debate will show so-called "Christians" that each and every one of their tens of thousands of sects does the pick and choose game as to what they will follow, and what they will throw out from the fiction that is the bible.

But I'm not holding my breath.

[mike_c]

33. ding ding ding-- best response in this thread....

Who cares who they delegate as good enough to spout that rubbish?

[customerserviceguy]

38. Thank you

And women who subject themselves to that kind of claptrap deserve the second-class status that post-agricultural religious tradition was founded to enshrine.

[LostinVA]

40. It's often more complicated than that

Many of these women are raised to think they truly are second class citizens. It's hard to rise up when you are continually beaten down.

NO ONE deserves to be treated less than they should be.

[customerserviceguy]

55. Sorry

In my world, if you want respect, sometimes you gotta demand respect. This Sunday school teacher should tell this weenie off. She has the age, hopefully, she has the wisdom.

[LostinVA]

60. Yet anything man refusing to understand how some women are raised

and psychologically conditioned to believe certain things. That's how it may be in "your world," but in many women and children's world, it's much more complicated and difficult. Have some compassion and understanding, if you can't choke up any empathy.

[melnjones]

48. if ignorance is bliss,

you must be having a good old time. It's not that simple.

[customerserviceguy]

56. OK

So you're defending the right of women to be ignorant, and subservient to churches that officially make them second-class? I think that women have to stand up against male-dominant religion, and throw it off. Of course, as an agnostic, I've thrown it off completely. In my world, women hold up half the sky.

[LostinVA]

62. No, that isn't what the poster is saying -- she's saying the exact opposit

Why is that so hard to understand? It's like people who say it's a woman's fault for not leaving an abusive spouse. Oh gods, if it were only that easy!

[melnjones]

67. absolutely not.

Of course I'm not defending the "right of women to be ignorant, and subservient to churches that officially make them second-class." In fact I fight against that passionately. I just don't appreciate your judgemental statements toward women who, in the years that they have been repressed and opressed, have ended up in these roles, not knowing how or even that they can get out of them. If you want to help people out, you don't start with name calling or insults. You start with empathy and empowerment.

edited for grammar

[LostinVA]

61. Tell me about it

[DinahMoeHum]

15. Why don't they stop baptizing women, then???

Fuck 'em.

:evilfrown:

[leesa]

20. Well, they still want them around in heaven to screw and do their dishes

and pick up after them.

[movonne]

16. There is no limit to what these religious nuts will do..I can't stand them

or the people who follow them...

[Warpy]

17. I hope that arrogant little punk loses his congregation

At least I hope the women have the good sense to walk out.

I don't hold out much hope, though.

One of the times I saw my mother the angriest was when a stuffed shirt of a priest gave a sermon on how the only place for women in the church was cleaning it.

She didn't walk out and I've never quite forgiven her for that. It took her two more decades and actually reading the bible cover to cover.

[meow2u3]

19. He's partially right, but for the wrong reasons

Some men are so prejudiced against women they will refuse to learn from anyone who is female. These are the intransigent chauvanist pigs who think God made them superior to women when in fact both men and women are equally human.

[melnjones]

22. A brief exegesis...

1 Tim 2
11 A woman should learn in quietness and full submission. 12 I do not permit a woman to teach or to assume authority over a man; she must be quiet. 13 For Adam was formed first, then Eve. 14 And Adam was not the one deceived; it was the woman who was deceived and became a sinner.


One...let's notice here that Paul has stated that a woman should learn. We don't seem to realize how earthshattering this statement is, as women were not allowed to learn in this day and age and culture. Paul is telling them that not only can they learn, but that they SHOULD learn.

Two...In the Greek, what is here translated "I do not permit a woman" could just as easily be translated "I am not permitting." It is not a rule to be followed for all time, but is reflecting something in the present situation.

Three...Men and women were also told elsewhere by Paul to mutually submit to each other. Just because here he is telling women in this circumstance to submit or not take authority does not mean he wouldn't say the same thing to men.

Four...Regarding Adam and Eve. Chronologically this is how they were created, minus some other details. Adam was formed. God told Adam not to eat from the tree. God saw that Adam needed a helper (which, by the way, denotes that Adam was not complete in and of himself and implies Adam and Eve's equality) so he made Eve from Adam's rib (also showing equality...they are side by side). Then the serpant told Eve to eat the fruit. She hadn't been told by God not to, and what she told the serpant was even incorrect (she somehow got that she wasn't supposed to even touch it, which is not what God said), so she was deceived by the serpant and ate it. Adam was with her and he ate some too. He was the one who would have taught Eve about the tree because she wasn't there when God told Adam about it, and aparently somehow she even got the wrong story out of it because God didn't mention not touching the tree, and then Adam didn't correct Eve when she stated this in error. The reference to this passage in Genesis is in 1 Timothy because it shows what can happen from bad teaching. The point is that the women need to be educated as the men already have been (since that was permisible in their society for men but not women), and THEN they would be able to teach. Paul worked with women in the ministry who taught. Priscilla, for example, who is always even listed before her husband in the text (unless you look at King James version, which has it wrong,go figure). By the way, the point is also not to blame Eve, but to showcase her lack of education which was not really her fault.

[PassingFair]

26. You spend a lot of time twisting passages into biblical pretzels.

Paul cannot be defended, you know.

It is embarrassing.

:crazy:

[melnjones]

47. Actually, IMO,

the interpretations coming from the fundies cannot be defended. That's why I'm studying and exegeting these texts in my academic pursuits.

[LostinVA]

41. I had Koine Greek in college, taught by a Methodist minister

His exegesis and commentary of this very short section was quite different than yours. Almost a 180 difference, actually.

This link is very close to what our professor said in 1985:

http://www.womenpriests.org/scriptur/timothy.asp

[melnjones]

45. lol, I should have specified

that it was not in any way shape or form a complete exegesis. That being said, what I posted echos a good deal of the website you mentioned so I'm not sure to what you are refering.

For example, I said "The point is that the women need to be educated as the men already have been (since that was permisible in their society for men but not women), and THEN they would be able to teach" and "In the Greek, what is here translated "I do not permit a woman" could just as easily be translated "I am not permitting." It is not a rule to be followed for all time, but is reflecting something in the present situation."

This website says "The overall meaning of this verse is, therefore: “Until women have learned what they need in order to get a full grasp of the true teaching, they are not to teach or have authority over men.” (Redekop)" and "The correct translation, therefore, is: “I am not presently allowing" (Spencer; Hugenberger); “I have decided that for the moment women are not to teach or have authority over men” (Redekop; see also Payne)."

The Adam and Eve thing probably sounds like a bit of a stretch, and in some ways it is, but after having done a good deal of research on this passage I've found that pretty much every explanation I've seen for that verse looks like a stretch. It's an awkward verse. This passage is one of the most controversial and most disagreed-upon passages in the whole Bible. I think the website you gave has as solid of an explanation for the Adam and Eve reference as anything else I've seen. I'm not 100% solid in my understanding of that verse and I readily admit that.

Other stuff on the website...it talks about the false teaching that was occuring and the gnostic influence, which is very important and relevent. The only info I would add to that would be background information on the mother goddess cults of Ephesus and the influence it had on that particular church, as it is also extremely relevent. I just wrote a couple paragraphs though in my first post...not enough to go into all that mess. Thanks for the link, it is very good and I'm going to bookmark it.

edited to add more reflection on mentioned website.
on edit again...the research in which I found the Adam and Eve stuff was in fairly recent books...late 1990's and beyond. If your prof was saying all this stuff in 1985 though I'm very impressed. Most of the good scholarship has been very recent on this passage.

[MichiganVote]

23. Well that's it then. Women are so inferior that they should no longer

have sex with men, make babies or fold the laundry. We females are all just a big waste of time.

(sarcasm)

[IndianaGreen]

29. Women are also forbidden from studying the Bible

St. Paul says that women not only must remain silent in the church, but that if they have any questions, they must ask their husbands.

Do you realize what would happen to Christianity if all the women were to walk out of the Church? It would collapse overnight!

This pastor is merely repeating the same crap espoused by the Southern Baptist Convention.

[MichiganVote]

37. I think they should walk out of church and a number of other places

[melnjones]

49. I hope you realize that is a very poor interpretation of

the passage from 1 Corinthians. It's bad enough when the fundies spout these biblical falacies, but even worse when we also agree that that's what the bible says, only come to the conclusion that we should just throw it all out. Studied in the proper historical and literary context, the Bible is amazingly liberating to women. It's just a shame that we've messed it up so badly in our interpretations for the last 2000 years or so.

[Demeter]

59. Sounds Like The Best Solution--Women, Leave the Churches that Abuse You!

Let them die in their Good Ole Boy religion. That will take out the Mormons, the the Baptists, the Catholics,....it would be a whole new world!

[melnjones]

68. If only it were that easy... nt

[WillParkinson]

28. Sweet! Read that ladies!

You're not GOOD enough to teach men. You should all be housewives and mothers and take care of your husbands needs, wants, and desires as a woman is intended to do. :sarcasm:


My mother taught me to be a good person. She taught me right from wrong. Seems she could teach that "man" a thing or two as well.

I always love people who use the bible as a weapon against others but never bother to put their own life to the test. Makes one wonder.

[maseman]

30. My wife

Is actually in the kitchen, pregnant and barefoot as we speak. She just made a wonderful lasagna with Texas Toast. Of course she is pregnant because WE wanted another baby, she's in the kitchen because she loves to cook (she would find a bridge to jump off of if the Cooking Channel ever went belly up) and she's barefoot because she it is hot and she is pregnant.

She grew up a Mennonite where they do believe the man is the spiritual leader. However, she is a choir director and teaches Sunday school now. She thought this guy should be sent packing.

Hey, I say if the flock at LeBeef's church like this kid of behavior, then fine. Don't give him the time of day nationally though. That's what these wackos want.

[MrPrax]

32. She's 81 for God's sake n/t

[TreasonousBastard]

34. Once again, everyone misses the point that...

not only is this not breaking news, since it's been all over the web for a day or so, the church admits that this is simply a way to get rid of her without further lawsuits.

Not the best way, but it's being way overblown.

Get a life, people.

[LostinVA]

42. Maybe you need to get a life, since many of us think this is important

And this guy's hypocrisy and nastiness deserve national exposure. EXPOSURE.

What lawsuit? Why are you believing this guy's spin? He makes vague, libelous accusations and doesn't back them up with facts. Mrs. Lambert's position is not a paid one, the minister doesn't HAVE to have a "lawsuit-free" reason. He's just trying to spin because the woman went public with the nastiness.

She's been a member of this church for 54 years. He's been there for two. Stirring the pot isn't Christian.

[melnjones]

50. Here's the part that gets me...

Let's assume the best possible scenario- that this lady has some issues and really needed to be relieved of her duties...they just picked a bad way to go about it. Well, even if that were the case, that means a minister is selectively using scripture out of context for alterior motives, which IMO is one of the most disgraceful things a minister can do. If you believe women shouldn't teach adult men, fine, but be consistent, since he says over half his teachers are female. If this lady needs relieved of her duties, fine, but don't misuse scripture to get out of a difficult confrontation with her and others in the church. Either way, the dude is being a bit of a weenie IMO.

[LostinVA]

63. Exactly --

[TreasonousBastard]

54. I'm saying get your facts straight before...

jumping on yet another bandwagon.

None of us know what's really going on there, and flying off the handle without knowing is just a waste of time, and often very embarassing when the facts come out. If it turns out that this woman is standing against the will of the board and the members and causing trouble with changes the congregation wishes, is everyone going to send an apology email?

There are hundreds of churches that don't allow women to teach Sunday school to boys, and thousands that will never see a woman priest or minister. Wanna have a good time-- go after the Catholic church, orthodox Jews, some Buddhists, Orthodox Christians, Muslims, and a whole slew of others that don't allow full participation for women. Sexism in its various forms is wrong and we have eliminated it in the churches I'm affiliated with, but it is rife within many sects and religions.

But, hey, another little church makes the news over a questionable internal decision and let's hammer them because they're an easy target and it's just so easy to fire off an angry email.

[Caretha]

36. Boy is he going to be surprised

when he meets God and She whaps him upside the head :)

[hyphenate]

44. Just another fucking looneytoons

Too fucking many of them around.

[Desperadoe]

46. Better start building more schools

There goes home schooling for all of those good christian boys. Unless, of course, daddy will stay home and teach the boys.

[momster]

51. I just wanna know....

is this the first time LaBouf has read the Bible? That passage has been there for a long, long time. What...were the pages stuck together at 1st Timothy when he read it the first time? "Hey, them onion skin pages are thin; I just didn't notice..." Or maybe he's one of those fun fundies who stopped at Leviticus and read Jesus for Dummies 'cause the New Testament was too touchy-feely.

Or did he just decide it was time to get rid of Mary Lambert (I wonder what she said to him? I know plenty of 80-ish women who don't mince words) and so arbitrarily made up his mind to use this verse against her.

Regardless, I'd bet his chances of reelection to any office or position, secular or spiritual, just dwindled to the vanishing point.

[barb162]

52. The preacher is an idiot

[sofa king]

53. You knew it had to come back sooner or later.

First they start by making themselves richer, then they screw the poor, then start a war or two.

Then it's on to restricting civil liberties, condoning torture, flogging gays, and banning abortion. Now it's chasing women back into the kitchen.

Next is reversing civil rights, and eventually, reinstituting slavery. Then it's on to the Re-Inquisition, human and animal sacrifice, hunting and gathering and finally climing back up into the damned trees.

And the whole time they'll be screaming that evolution is a bunch of crap--until they ban enough books that they forget how to read.

[true_notes]

57. Hence, why I am an Atheist

Because humans like this made me question why a God would even bother.

[AutumnMist]

58. I Will Say Two Things About This

The first point I want to make is this man is sexist and he should be banned from making these types of decisions for other people. After 50 years? Please! She could run rings around the man and he wouldn't know it because his ego is stuck so far up his backside that he cant see straight. I am really fed up with this kind of thinking when it comes to religion...any religion. NO ONE has the right to tell anyone what they should or shouldn't do in a spiritual way. I dont care what side of the fence you are on. Just get over it and move on.

My second point on this subject: This attitude is why people leave in droves from Christianity. It rules out any other person who is truly kind and spiritual and leaves this black hole of submission. The think like me or be left in the ashes mentality is bullshit. Get up everyday and worship/or not anyway you want. If someone disagrees with you feel blessed that we still can. So many people are howling to the highest mountain for support on their views. Express them and be prepared for whatever happens. Not everyone has to agree with each other.

[LostinVA]

64. Great post n/t

[auburngrad82]

65. So is it only Fundie men who stay home and home school their kids?

This makes absolutely no sense. If mom can be trusted to stay home and home school Matthew, Mark, Luke, John, Grace and Ruth, why can't they be trusted to teach people at Sunday School?



Liberal bumper stickers

[JNelson6563]

69. 8 places to beat a man and not leave marks

As a woman I would willingly teach him about this...

:toast: