Sunday school teacher dumped for being female (after 54 years)

[jseankil]

WATERTOWN, New York (AP) -- The minister of a church that dismissed a female Sunday School teacher after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible says a woman can perform any job -- outside of the church.

The First Baptist Church dismissed Mary Lambert on August 9 with a letter explaining that the church had adopted an interpretation that prohibits women from teaching men. She had taught there for 54 years.

The letter quoted the first epistle to Timothy: "I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent."

The Rev. Timothy LaBouf, who also serves on the Watertown City Council, issued a statement saying his stance against women teaching men in Sunday school would not affect his decisions as a city leader in Watertown, where all five members of the council are men but the city manager who runs the city's day-to-day operations is a woman.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/US/08/21/menonly.sundayschool.ap/index.html

[YOY]

1. Praise Jebus!

Revrind LaBoof has spoken his holy wards!

Oh Jesus, am I wrong to dislike kooky Baptists so?

[LiberalFighter]

133. Guess where he was 12 May 2002?

People for Pataki

[Divine Discontent]

152. HA

gotta love it

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

2. Timothy was written, I think,

by Paul, NOT Jesus. Jesus treated his female desciples fairly for the time-and wasn't it two women who discovered the open tomb, and that Jesus had risen? I guess they were supposed to just keep silent about that, too.

[Pryderi]

9. The Christian Bible Should Only Contain:

Only the New Testament, minus the writings of Paul.

[melnjones]

26. I respectfully disagree...

Please see my post below. I do understand your sentiment though! Studied in CONTEXT, the new testament is amazingly liberating to women. Just no one wants to do the contextual and linguistic study. Research the commentaries of Gordon Fee and Ben Witherington III...they are quite good.

[Pryderi]

27. I view Paul's teachings as a throwback to the Old Testament. Paul never

travelled with, nor spoke with Jesus.

[melnjones]

28. There's an awful lot of good stuff in his writings though...

I'd hate to see that lost. I do hear you though. As one who is studying this stuff in grad school, there are moments I have to wonder why the hell God had to let some of these confusing texts get through the canon. Very frustrating...but it does make me all the more motivated to really study and get to the bottom of it (the best I can).

[Pryderi]

35. I agree, but there's alot of Old Testament intolerance expressed

in Paul's writings. Reminiscent of Leviticus.

[Sgent]

43. Paul's writing

is reflective of his own sexual hangup's -- it had very little to do with the hebrew testament, and in many ways (esp having to do with sex) went far beyond hebrew prohibitions.

[sofa king]

140. I thought Paul reversed Leviticus.

Ignorant condemned to Hell agnostic here. I thought Paul was the guy who had the "everything you see here is A-okay now" vision. You know, a blanket rolled out displaying wine, shellfish, the sciatic nerve of a cow, Southern barbecue, and suggestively dressed altar boys, all presented by two dudes dressed like Seigfried and Roy.

Perhaps I'm remembering that section incorrectly. But then again, maybe Paul did, too.

[LiberalFighter]

132. God never made that decision

It was those damn sinful men who knew it all

[femrap]

48. Paul never married, did he?

Bet no woman in her right mind would put up with his crap.

[Critters2]

81. He was financially supported by women

Most notably the merchant Lydia.

[femrap]

168. I am not at all up on the bible... this is the

first I have heard of a Lydia...there were women merchants in those days? Where was Lydia's husband? And why did Lydia support Paul? Couldn't he make a living?

[Critters2]

175. The book of Acts describes Lydia

as a "seller of purple cloth". It says she was baptized "with her household", which may or may not have included a husband (probably not, or he would have been named--she was probably a widow). She helped Paul financially because, well, it's hard to support yourself as an itinerant preacher. Paul is said to have also worked as a tentmaker, and was supported by some of the churches he worked with.

[LiberalFighter]

131. Xtianity should not be called Christianity

it should be called paulinity.

Most if not all beliefs and teachings are based on Paul's writings (letters).

[LostinVA]

139. You got it!

[rocktivity]

11. DING DING DING! Ayeshahaqqiqa, you're our grand prize winner!

Timothy was (not) written by...Jesus...

"I do not permit a woman to teach or to have authority over a man; she must be silent" is a line from a letter, not a commandement from God or Jesus. Christofacism!!!!

:mad:
rocknation

[hedgehog]

12. That part of Timothy wasn't even written by Paul!

It was added years later as the Church became more a part of the greater society and newcomers insisted that social mores replace the freedoms of the earlier church. Talk about history repeating itself!If you do some googleing, it is clear that since Rev. Timothy LaBouf took over, there have been a lot of changes at an old established church. It's my guess that he built up a shrinking congregation by offering a fundamentalist viewpoint. By the time older members realized what is happening, they were outnumbered by newer members. Based on various news stories, it's clear that Ms. Lambert was prominent in trying to keep her church from shifting to the right. Many Baptists are in the same situation. A denomination noted for fierce independence of each congregation and freedom of conscience has been taken over by fundamentalists insisting on a lock step interpretation of the Gospels.

[Pryderi]

36. Oops...sorry I missed this. Can anyone or any organization rewrite the

Bible?

[knitter4democracy]

38. The Church put it together in the first place.

Keep in mind that letters were copied and re-copied by hand over and over again before the Bible was put together a couple hundred years later. Biblical scholars are still looking for insertions, deletions, and anything that seems to deviate from the oldest texts we have.

[melnjones]

25. AND we have to look at the context of those verses...

Women that before had been repressed socially suddenly had new freedom in the Christian church because of it's emphasis on equality. This particular scripture was written to a certain church for a certain reason- women had not yet been EDUCATED, and for them to at that time teach the men who HAD been educated would have been very problematic. Some scholars interpret this passage to mean that women weren't to teach men then and there until after they had received more training and education and were equipped to do so.

People also want to isolate this scripture and forget the other stuff Paul said, like "there is no Greek nor Jew, male nor female..." He also worked with female ministers (Priscilla who was assisted by her husband no less, etc). This is a tough Biblical text to understand, but not impossible. It just takes some work which unfortunately many people who cling to patriarchy don't want to do.

[Nevernose]

116. I am born again and you are wrong

I spent most of my life agreeing with you, and arguing the same things as you, before I came to the realization: what does it matter?

If God loves us, then we aren't going to burn in hell.
If God loves us, he wouldn't send us to hell.
There isn't a hell if God is love.
There is no such thing as sin.
Each of us should try and do as best we can in God's eyes. He's given us plenty of clues as to what His paradigm is. Most of us haven't been able to take it.

He loves us anyway.

If were wont to REALLY argue the point, one could argue the point that the Bible was written over thousnds of years and dozens of generations, and thus contains inconsistencies, irrelevancies, and incosistencies. It's not a question of patriarchy, it's a question of clinging to a logical fallacy.

The Bible is right because the Bible SAYS it is right? Alas, that's the best that Apologists can come up with.

To be honest, while I have deep respect for Christians, the teachings of Christ, and the Christian faith -- they're where I was a few years ago -- I have recently come to realize that God loves us. Period.

This isn't a new, new age, Hippy sort of idea, by the way, it goes back hundreds of years. In fct, these ideas go back as long as Pauline Christianity.

[melnjones]

136. Thanks for the reply...

I'm trying to figure out how to respond, lol. I'm probably a lot more open to the beliefs you stated than what you might think, and I am very ok with saying that my beliefs overall are NOT set in stone, for the simple reason that to claim I KNOW what the truth is is just a tad bit arrogant.

"The Bible is right because the Bible SAYS it is right? Alas, that's the best that Apologists can come up with."

This is a good point, which is why I don't argue Biblical truth with people who don't believe that the Bible is in some way authoritative and have no interest in what it says. It would be stupid to do so. I WILL discuss Biblical truth with people who also believe that it is authoritative, or even with people who don't but are wont to discuss what the Bible actually does or doesn't say anyway. However, I could make the same argument to you. You are right because you say you are right. That's not proof of your rightness anymore than the Bible saying it is right.

Apologists do a little better than that argument, however...I look at the Wesleyan Quadrilateral. Theology is to be based off of four things- Scripture, Tradition, Reason, and Experience, with Scripture typically holding a little more weight than the rest. A lot of people would baulk at the tradition component, but the reason it is there (in my opinion) is to say that we can't be so arrogant to ignore 2000 years of history when we figure out our theology. That isn't to say we can't go against tradition (quite the contrary...we often must do so). We just have to know why we are going against it and take it into consideration.

I think, though, that our points are somewhat moot. I was responding to a comment on what the Bible does or doesn't say in a particular passage. You are responding that the Bible isn't authoritative. Even with that belief one can still discuss what it does or doesn't intend to say.

Thanks for your thoughtful post.

[FighttheFuture]

138. What matters is the fools that take crap as literal truth...

shoving them down eveyone else's throat and fucking up the world since, well, forever.

If you want to spread God's "love" then you also need to address the people who spread God's "hate" -- bigotry, sexisim, racisim, tribalisim,... pick your "-ism"! That's why it matters. Earth should be, and could be a paradise if people weren't so intent on Religious fairy tales. Time for humanity to start growing up and put these fairy tales for fools into perspective.

[melnjones]

148. well...

"If you want to spread God's "love" then you also need to address the people who spread God's "hate" "

I agree. And I do. Frequently. However, you have to come at it in a way that they will understand. They believe the Bible is authoritative, at least in some sense, as do I, so that is the direction from which I approach them. If you believe that the Bible is not authoritative, which I would respect, you still have to understand the paradigm from which these people are coming. They aren't going to convince you that the Bible is authoritative any easier than you are going to convince them that it isn't. The truth of the matter, as far as I'm concerned, is that the Bible has been interpreted poorly for a long time now. When read correctly in the correct historical and literary context (and not read literally word for word because that was not even how it was originally meant to be read), it is an amazing tool that speaks of God's love and grace and freedom for all people. My goal is to help others who also believe in the authority of the Bible to see the truth written in it, rather than the patriarchial or other false traditions and interpretations that have been passed down or recently developed. The theology of your average fundie is so far gone that it's ridiculous, but this can be addressed without telling them they have to doubt their most basic belief- that the Bible is authoritative.

[FighttheFuture]

173. Good luck in your endeavor. I believe that for true growth, you must...

come to question your most basic beliefs. When you tear down the crap in you, you can build better beliefs within. What too many do is seek to buttress misguided beliefs, thinking they have changed them when all they have done is hardened them.

Of course, the question is: what makes one belief system better than another? They are not all equal -- half dozen, six of another -- as so many would like to believe while avoiding critical analysis and chance offending. Being that I believe nothing in this world is absolute, this can only be judged against your most fundamental beliefs, shaped from all of your experiences to that point, and perhaps more. If you believe the world is cruel, unfair, capricious, then that is what you operate from and react to. If you believe in a universal God's love, then that is your approach; I'm talking REAL core beliefs here, not the surface crap we employ to run our lives in the jungles we exist within.

In essence, I have found that the basic rule is you seek to satisfy that which you truly believe. So, the obvious followup is Understand that which you truly believe. This then leads to if you do not like it, then change it!! The point is, you create your own life, with everyone else around you. Alas, for many this can take a lifetime to understand, if they ever do. Also, not all humans are self-aware, and even then, it's always a matter of degrees.

For what it's worth, I think you are on a good path with your personal approach. Good luck!

[mnhtnbb]

58. Jesus also revealed himself as the Messiah to the Samaritan woman

See John 4:1-41

This woman was a nobody--a Samaritan woman--without a husband. And yet Jesus tells her exactly who he is. Unheard of in that day for this kind of of consideration and dialogue to occur.

[enlightenment]

3. There are no words . . .

:eyes: :banghead:

[NightHawk63]

4. The American Taliban in all it's glory (nt)

[Bretttido]

24. When will they day come that this man will form "minute-men" patrols

searching for women that attempt to covertly teach boys.

[OhioChick]

5. How Ridiculous.

:eyes:

[Botany]

6. God Bless them internets

http://www.nnyinfo.com/firstbaptist/

Rev. Timmy Labouf's church web site and a link to email him too

[e-mail]

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

14. Did you read his "letter"?

Blaming Mrs. Lambert for "going public" with who she was treated. Blaming the victim.

His letter was a load of self-serving, sidstepping, doubletalk, huh?

[ayeshahaqqiqa]

20. She can come to my group anytime

Our prayers are gender neutral, some of the top teachers are women, there are many many ordained ministers who are women, and one of the people who can ordain is a woman.

Or she could follow the New Testament advice that told the early Christians to leave a city where they were not wanted and to brush the dust of that city from their shoes. I'm sure that there are many from her church who would join her. Maybe they will start their own church.

[WhiteTara]

23. we should all send her bread and wine

as communion so that she may never thirst and never hunger.

[hedgehog]

33. This is very sad.

This woman has clearly participated in the work of this congregation for years and has many personal ties. Now that she's old and may need the support of her church family, newcomers are practically ejecting her. "Church" is more than the preacher and the preaching.

[katinmn]

129. And a blog site, too, with some interesting comments!

KJV uber alles said...
* Avoid marriage if you can. (1 Cor. 7:1, 1 Cor. 7:38 )
* Outlawdivorce (1 Cor. 7:11 )
* End circumcision (1 Cor. 7:19, Gal. 5:2 )
* Bring back slavery (1 Cor. 7:21, Tit. 2:9 )
* Eat food sacrificed to idols (1 Cor. 8:4 )
* Long hair on men is a sin (1 Cor. 11:14 )
* Don't wear gold, braids, fancy clothes (1 Tim. 2:9 )
* Don't let women teach/have authority over men (1 Tim. 2:12 )
* No welfare for women under sixty (1 Tim. 5:9 )

7:35 AM

Spengler said...
I know a lot of people that support Tim's view on women in the church.

Their names are Osama Bin Laden, Abu Musab Al Zarqawi, etc etc etc etc.

And a church that supports war?
How very anti-Christian of you.

"Forgive them, Father, for they know not what they do."

---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Keep up the great work of showing what religion is really all about - ancient outdated ideas, control of the masses and suppression of the individual.

I credit a Baptist upbringing with my strong atheism today and am thankful that I saw religion, particularly your philistine brand, for what it is.

11:53 AM

[jseankil]

7. U.S. Christian Taliban, alive and kicking in 2006 (and on city council)/nm

nm

[UpInArms]

66. It's the Tali-born-again and we are busy rolling back the hands

on the clock and the pages on the calendar to 300 B.C.

:grr:

:nuke:

[Mugsy]

78. The Religious Right is becomming more and more like...

the Muslim religious extremists they condemn, everyday.

How long before they start forcing the men and women to sit of different sides of the church... even separate churches for the menfolk and the women?

And you just KNOW that if they could force the women to wear burkas, they would.

I try to imagine what on Earth could make these people, after 9/11, to look at these repressive backwards theocracies and say, "Yeah, I want us to be more like that!"

[erik-the-red]

146. One similarity I observed

Apparently, Jerry Falwell likes to refer to the next generation of the Christian Right as Lieutenants for the Lord.

He uses a metaphor; radical Muslims actually fight.

[ClintonTyree]

98. Watertown is an extremely "Red" area..........

we have a summer cottage near there. It's about as "Red" as any place in America. I know, it's hard to believe in New York and all. People around there are VERY conservative but I had no idea they were THIS idiotic! :grr: Fort Drum is there, home of the 10th Mountain Division Division; Mom, apple pie, country music, monster trucks, flag wavin' and keepin' women in their place. :puke:

Perhaps I should think about selling......... the 3 hour drive is getting old with gas prices this high anyway.

What a fucking idiot! :banghead:

[LosinIt]

101. Clinton, please don't condemn an entire region because of one dickface

I grew up in Jefferson County, and I will grant you there are some real knuckle-draggers there. But, there are also some very forward-thinking people there. And the more casualties that the 10th Mountain Division incurs, the deeper the resentment toward this criminal administration grows.

[ClintonTyree]

102. I'm not "condemning" anyone.........

It may be an unfair generalization but certainly not a "condemnation". And there's a LOT more than "one dickface" in the area. ;) The people in the area STILL overwhelmingly support the giggling murder monkey, I've seen the Channel 7 news from Watertown a lot this summer.
Sorry if I offended you in any way, but I'm just callin' 'em as I sees 'em. :shrug:

[splat@14]

8. Biblical absolutism, similar justice in Phelps church or under the taliban

[atreides1]

10. "after adopting what it called a literal interpretation of the Bible.."

How far does this "literal interpretation of the Bible", go?

I wonder does the church own slaves yet? Paul didn't seem to have any problems with slavery!

[Occulus]

16. Not only that, but

as someone in the GD thread on this subject posted, the verse he's talking about precludes women from teaching men.

Children, by definition, are not men. This pastor has some explaining to do, I think....

[noonwitch]

17. Paul believed that the world's end was coming soon

If you look at the context of a lot of his comments about women and slavery, it's in the context of the larger issue of spreading the word being more important than fighting the roman empire for the rights of women and slaves.\

I do think some of his instructions about women are flavored with some sexism, but he is not Jesus. Paul gave advice to church leaders on how to run things, he did not speak for Jesus. His letters belong in the Bible-they have historic context and some of what he says is very moving:

"My grace is sufficient for thee: for my strength is made perfect in weakness". Although, it is what Paul reports Jesus saying to him (the words are in red in that type of Bible). It's from II Corinthians 12. Any recovering drug addict who is helping others recover knows exactly what this means.

[agentkgb]

21. Literal Interpretation

"Thou shalt not kill" is a commandment, but the church doesn't seem to have any objections to war. Maybe they just object to women serving in the military.

[xchrom]

39. it's ''thou shalt not commit murder'' not ''kill''.

per se god would not have a problem with killing certain circumstances.

[Occulus]

47. When did THAT change?

I thought it was "kill"- it had been said as such for as far back as I can remember- but, sure enough, some versions say 'murder'.

Yet another quibble I have with this religion: y'all can't even get your own commandments straight.

'kill' is general. 'Murder' is specific. The one does not allow killing of any sort; the other allows killing in certain circumstances.

Huge gulf between the two.

[blonndee]

80. It's a difference in the Hebrew word

ratsach, and is mostly used to indicate murder.

The NKJV, NLT, NIV, NASB, Young, and HNV all translate it "murder." There are some commentaries and study guides on this at blueletterbible.org, but the "murder" translation is pretty well accepted.

[xchrom]

82. ''killing'' is a bad translation is all.

it's murder.

[LostinVA]

91. xchrom is correct -- it denotes murder

Self defense is acceptable, including some wars, but wars such as the invasion of Iraq are considered immoral. And, many religions and denominations agree. The Catholic Church has been very, very vocal against both the invasion of Iraq and Israel's recent "excursions" into Lebanon.

[Occulus]

107. Huh. Interesting.

Maybe I wasn't paying attention to the specific wording in places I've seen the commandments spelled out.

Honestly, I've always heard it spoken as 'kill', not 'murder'. Weird.

[LostinVA]

126. It often is translated as "kill:

Like in the KJV -- but that's wrong. The Hebrew word means murder, not kill.

[cyborg_jim]

163. Now all we need is a consistent defintion of what murder is!

[intaglio]

86. Big problem with many of the "Literalists"

The bible they consider "inerrant" is the King James' Version. So the passage "thou shalt not commit murder" in more the accurate translations they render as "thou shalt not kill" in accordance with the KJV. Similarly they always will use the phrase "Thou shalt not suffer a witch to live"(KJV) where the better sense is that "thou shalt not suffer a poisoner to live".

Of course "... not kill" is often rendered "...not murder" by these same literalists because they want the freedom to war against things. No-one could accuse the literalists of consistency partially because the Bible, in all versions, is inconsistent. Consider the 2 different accounts of the creation in Genesis

[chat_noir]

37. LITERAL interpretation of the Bible?

OK, was Jesus lying when he said he was "the vine"? 15:1 "I am the vine, ye are the branches..."

Genocide is ok with Labouf?

"When the Lord your God brings you into the land you are entering to possess and drives out before you may nations...then you must destroy them totally. Make no treaty with them and show them no mercy." Deuteronomy 7:1-2

"...do not leave alive anything that breaths. Completely destroy them...as the Lord your God has commanded you..." Deuteronomy 20:16

I'm sure some of you can come up with more "literal interpretation".

[xxqqqzme]

72. as Louis Black says...'the old testament is MY book.

You won't see a rabbi on television on Sunday morning teaching from the new tetament.'

[Occulus]

108. Interesting statement

Vines and branches, I mean. Without the vine, the branches cannot exist, but without the branches, the vine cannot exist.

VERY interesting statement, one which to my mind should provoke some theological discussion on its own...

[Bridget Burke]

40. The Southern Baptist Convention....

Is at the forefront of "Biblical inerrancy." That is, absolute literal belief in every word of the Bible. (But they tend to ignore the inconvenient stuff.) Keeping women subserviant is one of the doctrines they like. However, Baptist ladies have been active in the Church for many years--this has already caused trouble.

The SBC also pioneered erasing the barrier between Church & State, when they got into bed with Texas Republicans. (Historically, Baptists avoided politics.)

MANY Baptists have left the SBC for other Baptist groups--because of these antics.

You mentioned slavery?

The Southern Baptists Convention may be very vocal and public, but they do not represent the only face of Baptism in America - indeed, the history of Baptism is much more liberal and tolerant than you might imagine. Key to understanding that is understanding how the Southern Baptist Convention first developed.

Baptist churches are characterized in part by the independence of local churches and the first national Baptist organization wasn’t created until 1814. Already in 1845, though, the group was split - over slavery. The Southern Baptist Convention was established in Augusta, Georgia, in order to preserve a religious foundation for human slavery.

http://atheism.about.com/od/baptistssouthernbaptists/a/southernbaptist.htm

However, it appears that this particular congregation is NOT SBC! http://www.nnyinfo.com/firstbaptist/

[PegDAC]

161. That's correct.

They're affiliated with the American Baptist Convention. I was raised in an ABC church. They never seemed to have a problem with women teaching Sunday school. The most insane thing they did was try to convince the teens that Rock and roll was Satan's music, and implying that slow dancing would get a girl pregnant :eyes: . But it looks like the insanity has taken the ABC over, too.

[Harry Monroe]

69. The literal interpretation of the Bible...

...goes as far as they can stretch it. The Earth really was created in 6 days!!!!:sarcasm: :wow:

[mwooldri]

110. Hmmm... I wonder if this church bans women for wearing "pants".

By this I mean trousers, or what are termed at times "dress pants". A friend of mine from work once went to a church where the women could not hold office if they routinely wore dress pants - they had to wear dresses or skirts.

That's almost as whacko as this was. Getting rid of their Sunday School teacher after X number of years. If it was a salaried position well... she'd ought to be suing for an awful lot of backpay.

As others have said, seems like this church has gone crazy. But I don't know the whole story or the "other matters around her termination".

Mark.

[melnjones]

137. ha ha, men in biblical times didn't wear pants either.

I always think of that and laugh.

[peace13]

13. This is just one brick in the chimney!

American women have got to wake up! Birth control not covered by insurance but Viagra is. Abortion rights being stripped away. Now Sunday school...give me a break. We are going backward here in a big sorry way! Kim

[MrPrax]

19. Nice thought...

But as an outside observer...I don't see many folks getting too upset with any of this shit in any meaningful way...everything you said is considered political sport and on the table. Look on the bright side...you might lose a right here and there, but you might get a bridge for your district out of it?

What's wrong with? Bridges means jobs and money into the community; a womens' health center has little economic benefits...your priorities are all wrong in the New America.

[femrap]

50. Big fat BACKLASH!!!

I asked a fundie the other day if he was going to work to bring back burning 'witches' at the stake?

How many millions of women were murdered because they didn't stay in their 'place?'

[acmavm]

15. I've got a whacky Baptist son-in-law. Needless to say, I'm not

too fond of him (which he knows) and he doesn't like me because I won't put up with his stupid shit.

[peacetalksforall]

18. I think I figured out the universe. We are all in regression ....

Humanity was tried as an experiment. We progressed for centuries and reached our pinnacle in the last half of the so-called twentieth century when many spoke of the humanness of people and their rights and rightful needs. The experiment is complete. We are now regressing. Barbarian invasions, killing, maiming, lies, delusions, myths now reign again and are gaining.

And the suffocating rule of single minded people - whether religion and control or profit and control, or controlled imprisonment of body and mind.

Religions which we were told would guide and comfort us are now becoming all fundamental on us and making our lives miserable. We set up rules and treaties, shake hands, then break the rules and kill or imprison the people. The regression will go faster because the water is coming and there is no need to allow the regression to take as long as the experiment of progress. (Or Armageddon will take care of it for some).

It's hard to keep on track of whether I am in the minority about the goodness of people or if I am the one delusioned.

Are many people right when they say that .... There will/shall always be a war? (Against someone?)

Or are those who say that we can evolve in heart and soul by bringing peace right?

[femrap]

52. I am thinking we are in a big backlash....

2 steps forward and now 1 step back.

I just finished reading 'Conservatives w/o Conscience' by John Dean....I highly recommend it. You will see that these 'authoritarian types' (fundies) are roughly 20 to 23% of the population. They have always been around....we simply have to counter them...and there are more of us than them. They're just noisier and meanner....we gotta be pushier than them. Read it, you'll feel a bit better....I did.

[mntleo2]

22. Gnostic Christians (Before Codifying of NT)

...actually had a lottery as to who would do the priestly duties such as conduct services, perform marriages, conduct baptisms, and the like with BOTH MEN AND WOMEN where they took turns. This was within 100 years of Jesus' ministry and they were in close contact with many early church leaders in the Palestine area. As a matter of fact, Polycarp (Greek for 'many bodies') the third pope, was close to Peter, the disciple. He accepted re-incarnation as a fact and that people re-incarnated back and forth from male to female. In other words, there was no difference because you may come back as the other sex. This was DANGEROUS to the early church fathers who tried to take all that out, such as equality for women. But there are remains of those practices as well as beliefs in the NT as well as other church writings from that era. (Elaine Pagels, Harvard School of Theology has written about how women took part in early church practices in a book about Gnostic Christians).

These Cristo-fascist hypocrites are clueless about their own history.

My 2 cents

Cat In Seattle

[femrap]

53. Thx for the info....I like the idea of

reincarnation. I've always thought there was something to that....would like to see rove come back as a worm...something that is low on the food chain.

[Igel]

29. Do they have men in their Sunday school classes?

Or perhaps the church lacks the funds for a NT Greek grammar?

Robertson's, perhaps?

[AnneD]

30. I wonder if.......

she was drawing a salary or receiving any benefits. Just a thought. I have seen all sorts of goofy reasons for taking folks off a payroll.
Frankly, in most churches, the women are the glue that holds them together. I have no great fondness for many parts of Paul's writings (as do many thoughtful Christian women). It is not the writings per se, but how they are taken out of context and interpreted to fit less than spiritual motives. Christ stood for many things, but the suppression of women was not one of them.

[PegDAC]

162. Except for the pastor and the church secretary,

All positions at an ABC church are volunteer - no money.

[AnneD]

164. Thanks for the clarification...

WELL, isn't THAT special. Personally, I think the pastor flunked his moral pop quiz.

[MGKrebs]

31. That chapter of Timothy also forbids women to wear pearls,

gold jewelry, or braid their hair.

[femrap]

54. What is the reason for that, I wonder.

To save oysters? Why the braids?

[Raksha]

73. I think in context it was a prohibition against dressing seductively

and/or showing vanity or materialistic concerns considered inappropriate for Christian women.

[melnjones]

165. To reduce the schism

between the "haves" and the "have nots" I believe was part of the reason. I would have to do some research to be sure though. Given the culture, it would have been easy for the wealthy women to flaunt their wealth in this way.

[damntexdem]

32. If those taught by this teacher over 54 years had any integrity, ...

they'd be out of this congregation by now, or throwing out this minister.

[54anickel]

99. By the sounds of it, I'd think many are already gone. n/t

[The Backlash Cometh]

34. Your tax dollars at work.

Did anybody anticipate this when they argued about giving churches control over social services?

It's time to rethink a lot of things, and the right-wing churches are at fault for putting themselves on the radar.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1953117&mesg_id=1953117

[poverlay]

41. To everyone who is discussing what they think should or should not

be in the Bible: After 12 years of Catholic schooling, marriage to the daughter of a Presbyterian minister, and extensive research, I have learned that you don't get to pick and choose. You either accept all of it, or none of it. It's the word of God. Divinely inspired and chosen at the Council of Nicea. No ifs, ands or buts!

If you want to believe in the Bible you also have to believe in the bigotry, prejudice and hypocrisy that goes along with it.
Try writing it off with a hearty "Who can know the mind of God?", or "Pass the cole slaw.".

[LostinVA]

46. Not necessarily

I was raised Catholic, taught CCD for quite a few years, went to a Methodist college and studied lots of comparative religion, took Koinic Greek, etc. Very few denominations believe you have to accept all of the Bible... including the Catholic Church. There are also more than a few mainstream denominations who also don't necessarily believe in divine inspiration.

I don't think the canon was chosen at either Council of Nicea, btw..

[poverlay]

75. Ah CCD. Now that takes me back. You're right, but the Council of Nicea

did set the course and tone of the Bible by deciding which doctrines were "divinely" inspired and which were not. Most notably the concept of homo-ousion. Any disagreement was dealt with by destroying manuscripts and exile. Athanasius was very single-minded, and he managed to stamp out any serious challenge to the doctrines supported by the Bible as it was later codified at Carthage... Very interesting subject imo.

They ALL believe in divine inspiration when it suits their needs.

Lastly,
I'm very curious as to where the Catholic church allowed for accepting only parts of the Bible?

[LostinVA]

90. The Church doesn't read the Bible as "Fundamental"

Many parts are considered allegories, etc. Certain teachings in it have to be excepted, but far from all of it. I'd bet Pope Rat himself would say it was acceptable if all you you embraced were the Gospels, the Ten Commandments, and that God created everything.

[hedgehog]

100. In my classes to be a Religious Ed teacher for the Catholic

Church, we were taught that the Gospels represent the faith experience of a four different communities in the early Church. In other words, the Gospels themselves are an interpretation of whatever happened when the man Jesus walked the earth. Some accounts are actually different from each other. For example, scholars will point out distinct differences in the Passion accounts as one group wanted to emphasize the humanity of Jesus and others chose to emphasize the divinity. The really hard part is realizing that the truth is not one or the other or even somewhere in between but that all four accounts are aspects of a single truth. From what little I know of Church history, it's taken a while to develop this analysis, but Catholics also believe in the ongoing presence of the Holy Spirit.

[stanwyck]

61. I was raised in the Presbyterian Church

and we were taught that the language of The Bible is not to interpreted literally but to be understood as the language of the time. The stories are instructional, not literal, and rely on metaphor. The Bible is the legacy of the spoken word, tales passed from tribes migrating and spreading the word of God. Many of the "thou shalt nots" are desert survival tips. The dietary restrictions are meant to protect tribal people from becoming ill. Hygiene is carefully regulated, including the separation of the sexes during certain periods, in order to keep the tribe as healthy as possible. These resrictions were not meant to be interpreted for discrimination within a modern society that is not tribal.

[poverlay]

77. Who gets to interpret? I've heard some things out of my minister father

in law (and, excuse me, but I'm going to take his word on the stance of the Presbyterian church over yours) that pretty much damn everyone I know to hell due to their not following the "Word" of god as it is stated in the bible. Of course it's my sister's fault that I watched "Bosom Buddies" when I was younger...

[stanwyck]

87. The United Presbyterian Church

is not fundamentalist. People are not damned for not literally following the word of god. Many churches have women ministers. Women don't cover their heads and they wear pants and cosmetics -- not true if you "follow the word of god as stated in the bible".
The Presbyterian church my daughter attends has been active in civil rights for gay people, (following their past tradition of equal rights for minorities and women). They are also a very environmentally conscious congregation, active in the community with recyling efforts.
The congregation your father-in-law presides over sounds extreme for a Presbyterian church.
At any rate, his interpretation of damning people for not taking the Bible literally is directly opposed to my required education for joining the church. But then, our minister was a Yale graduate who worked on JFK's campaign for president.

[LostinVA]

92. The Presbyterian Church ISN'T Fundamental

Very, very few mainstream Christian churches are: the Baptists, Nazarenes,e tc. Most aren't... including Catholics, Methodists, Lutherans, etc. The poster's relative must preside over a breakaway Orthodox Presbyterian Church, I guess, which is Fundamentalists... but isn't part of the PCA.

[melnjones]

151. Even within those that typically are,

you will find wide variance among the people. You'll also find some Catholics, Methodists, and Lutherans that ARE pretty fundamentalist. It's dangerous to label everyone with one broad stroke of the paintbrush.

[LostinVA]

93. Very good post!

[melnjones]

149. Thank you. nt

[mnhtnbb]

62. Word of God? No, it's written by men to serve the purpose of

men in maintaining power and authority through a hierarchy of men.

Show me God's signature affirming that I, God, wrote these words. It can't be done, so it has to be taken on FAITH that it's the word of God.
Anything written by humans is going to have an agenda. Period. End of
story.

[poverlay]

113. Allow me to mention that I couldn't agree with you more... When

God wants me to do something I assume he'll come tell me in as unambiguous a fashion as possible. I'm hoping for George Burns to show up...

[Shakespeare]

88. So which "whole" do we accept?

The catholic version of the bible? Or the protestant KJV?

And what about the parts that have been trimmed away or added by the church patriarchy over the millennia? How about the apocrypha?

Your proviso is impossible to put into practical use, because there are far too many variables, and far too many "versions" of God's word. And I didn't even touch on the Augustinian concept of allegory v. literalism in the bible.

[poverlay]

112. Yes, Yes~ I called Bullshit years ago on any religion's claim to accuracy

let alone some sort of divine favoritism. My conclusion to date: The only truth to be found in religion is "Truthiness".
I am a bit of an antagonist though, and do enjoy poking the anthill occasionally so as to watch people's heads explode.

Aahh
Good time, good times...

[Skarbrowe]

42. What is wrong with women? I posted this on the other thread

on this subject, but I wanted to post it here also.


Why do women put up with this garbage? I have female family members that spouted out this bile to me. I would join any "resistance" necessary to fight this brain dead belief if it ever became some sick law of the land. Amerikastan! WOMEN! You give life. You make babies! If anyone or anything should be worshiped it should be you. Personally, I'm fine with men and women being equal and loving each other as partners in experiencing life on earth. We are all human with none being better or closer to any "God" than any other human. After making a serious attempt to respect religions all over the world, I just get fed up with this male power trip fantasy of keeping women down. It's repulsive. If a man has a "male" problem he wants to talk over with male clergy, he can find them. Same with women. What is the problem??


Bad subject for me. Ha!

[femrap]

57. So many women have been humiliated, ridiculed, and put in

their 'place' that they stopped bothering to speak up. I've seen it. Fear is a powerful motivator.

This brainwashing/socialization starts very, very early in life. And today, there are very few Eleanor Roosevelts out there showing the way and offering encouragement. Many of our women leaders today are trying to be macho....not a good idea. I like what Cindy Sheehan is doing...she is a great example of courage. I admire her immensely. Standing tall for Peace is NOT being a 'sissy'....even though that is what the neocons want our culture to embrace...and the MSM screams Machoism day in and day out. Standing for Peace takes more courage than fighting....IMHO.

What we have today is a mass media that places women as objects...very skinny and busty objects. I feel very sorry for the young women today...I had it much easier during the 'enlightenment' years of the '60's and '70's.

I really appreciate your attitude toward women....as said up thread, maybe you were a woman in very recent life and 'get it.'

[Skarbrowe]

74. I am a woman and a default atheist. :) nt

edited to add that I'm not a very good multi-tasking woman...I am a woman, not a womam. HA!

[femrap]

169. I read your post and thought you were

male....because you said, 'You women....' I took that to mean you weren't one of us.

Sorry...should have known better.

Hey, I went to a book store today browsing...and Mary Daly's new book is out! So I had to buy it...gotta support her! Also saw 2 books...."Woman Hating" and "Misogyny"....both were written by men...one was a rabbi. Didn't purchase those...but will get from the library. Even some men realize that it's one big ugly Backlash going on!

[Skarbrowe]

174. It did sound like I was speaking from a male stand point femrap.

I realized that after I read it again. HA...sometimes you forget that people don't know who you are on this board. I don't think anyone knows who I am. I have a very deep voice and I get called sir on the phone all the time and sometimes to my face. LOL! And honestly, I'm not that masculine and I have very large..ahumm...LOL!! So, I have no problem at all with being thought of as a male. I never consider it an insult. Next time I stick up for women I should remember to point out that I happened to be one.

There are men who understand what women have to through. Don't have the foggiest of how many, but hopefully it's more than we think. Remember what John Lennon said about women? Enjoy your books. :)

[femrap]

177. I sure miss John Lennon....he was one of

those who 'got it.' Friends of mine believe the CIA/FBI was behind his murder. He was so admired by so many....and his message of Peace and Love could NOT be tolerated....He had to go.

But his message will never be gone.

[gunfan]

125. goddess worship?

You give life. You make babies! If anyone or anything should be worshiped it should be you.

This is actually a pretty good arguement as to why women should not be placed in authority above men in any envirement.

[LostinVA]

127. What does your statement in bold mean?

Are you agreeing that women shouldn't be "above" men in any situation?

[Kailassa]

141. "arguement", "envirement"?

Obviously your spelling teacher was a woman, so you didn't bother to listen.

By the way, we have a special innovation here for the use of visiting freepers.

It's a small button, bottom left, labeled "Check Spelling".

Until you have learned to spell, please refrain from worshiping the women here.
We are rather particular as to the quality of our acolytes.

[melnjones]

153. huh? nt

[Skarbrowe]

176. YES! Goddess worship. Ya caught me. I do worship women.

Actually, I don't worship anything but what gets me through my day. Oh no. Now I am a Mother Earth worshiper. Geez, I just can't get away from that "woman" thing. Oops. I bet you're no longer on this thread. Nevermind. ;)

[nealmhughes]

44. Dear Madam:

There are very nice congregations throughout Upstate NY where you will be welcomed as a full member, and invited to assist at the altar and read the Epistle and Psalma and the Old Testament Lesson... welcome to the Episcopal, Methodist, UCC, ELCA, etc. Churches! You can also be a minister/priest/bishop!

[Autumn Colors]

45. Yet another reason I remain happily an atheist

As if there weren't enough already.

[iamahaingttta]

49. Who cares?

It's all a bunch of silly mumbo-jumbo fairy tales anyway!!!

[aggiesal]

51. I don't want to jump to any conclusions,

but, I'll bet she voted for King George. Twice!

[SutaUvaca]

55. May I suggest

for anyone interested in a good scholarly read in regard to the "evolution" of Christian scriptures, any and all of the books by Elaine Pagels: The Gnostic Gospels, Adam and Eve, Beyond Belief, Gospel of Paul, etc.

[femrap]

59. I've put her name on my reading list...thx. nt

[ismnotwasm]

142. My favorite!

I am, and will always be, agnostic, but Ms. Pagels went a long way to redeeming Christianity for me. I learned to be far more understanding and respectful of the religion from her books.

[mnhtnbb]

56. American Taliban

[melnjones]

154. Oooh...you are so right...nt

[DarkTirade]

60. And here I thought the baptists were only this (*&%ed up in the south.

(and by this I'm not poking fun at the south... just southern baptists.)

[LostinVA]

94. Southern Baptist churches aren't just in the South

It's a "division" of the Baptists -- like Free Will, Primitive, etc.

[DarkTirade]

120. Yeah, I know.

They're the ones who split from the regular baptists because they believed that the bible supported slavery though. That pretty much says all you need to know about them.

[shadowknows69]

143. You'd love the Baptist church I went to as a kid

they'd gleefully burn us both at a stake now I suspect.

[DarkTirade]

166. I went to a baptist church when I was a kid too...

it just wasn't a southern baptist church. Very religious, yes, but they didn't cross that line from 'very religious' to 'just plain nuts'.

[GoddessOfGuinness]

63. Good for him.

Makes it easier for people to sort out the nutcase churches from the rest of them.

[Scooter24]

64. The scripture was read out of context...

Paul wrote to Timothy regarding the church in Ephesus. He never told Timothy that women should NEVER teach men.

As it turns out, there were many false teachers in Ephesus and many women were susceptible to these false claims by false teachers. And, as it was, those women were not knowledgeable, experienced, or mature in "biblical" knowledge to be able to teach. Therefore, since Ephesus was having problems such as this, Paul advised Timothy to not allow anyone (including women) IN EPHESUS into positions of leadership who were not yet mature in the faith. That is what this particular passage is all about. It is not about women NOT teaching men!

What amazes me is that church leaders, as well as lay people, get ahold of a passage and, given that it is God's "Word," they use it to make decisions that affect the lives of other people thinking that it MUST be right!

The Baptist pastor in this case needs to re-visit 1st Timothy to see what it actually refers to as opposed to thinking that the conditions in Ephesus are the same as in Watertown, NY.

Now, if this lady, who has been teaching for 54 years, was a "false teacher" ... then...he might be right.

But, I imagine that God is looking at this and shaking His head saying " I must forgive those Baptists as the REALLY don't know what they are doing."
-------
Post from AOL message board. Pretty much sums up everything I have to say on this.

[StoryTeller]

147. THANK YOU

I was waiting for someone to point this out. You and MelnJones have it exactly right. The "Paul bashers" don't even know that they're reacting against really BAD fundamentalist teaching, instead of studying to figure out what was actually going on.

It's important to realize that Paul was writing LETTERS to specific groups of people in a specific historical context. We only have "half the phone conversation" as it were. Some of his most troubling statements are made in contexts of which we really don't have a clear picture as to what was going on. And when we try to apply his statements without trying to reconstruct that context, we end up with whacky, stupid theological decisions like what happened to this Sunday School teacher.

I feel so sorry for her. 81 years old and she's had her life ministry stripped away from her. Problem is, there are a LOT of us from different churches who have gone through the same thing. But not all churches are like that. In fact, I'd say that most churches are not. I hope she finds another church that will welcome her and her teaching ability with open arms and hearts.

[melnjones]

160. And ya know what?

I learned this my first year at a seminary affiliated with a religious movement that many people on this board would consider to be fundie. It's not about liberal or conservative as much as it is plain old good scholarship. I wish we could get this through our heads. Paul has been brutalized by the conservatives that misinterpret everything he says and by the liberals that demonize him because they don't question the conservative interpretations, choosing instead to throw out Paul altogether. In reality, he was pretty amazing.

[melnjones]

156. Preach it.

see my post #25. I'm glad some people are aware of the context.

[0007]

65. It's about goddam time they woke up!

That's why I belong to the Round Church.

[KamaAina]

67. They've only now discovered she's a woman after 54 years?

Not very observant, are they? :eyes:

[melnjones]

157. LOL nt

[Harry Monroe]

68. Does it say anywhere in the Bible...

...that the minister can perform any job...outside of the church that is..because "thou has thine head up thy ass??"

[ShortnFiery]

70. I saw both (Minister and Teacher) interviewed on CNN

I believe that this young, haughty, right wing Minister is taken by the GREEN monster of jealousy. Even in her advanced age, this elder lady exuded the intelligence, insight, warmth and compassion that a lifetime of preaching will never bless someone as arrogant as him, i.e., the Southern Baptist Minister who fired her.

[Divine Discontent]

83. hmmmmm...

1st off, thanks for the comment on the bush/bald video,
2nd -

thank you for the insight on this story, you've reaffirmed my original thought that this was yet another BAPTIST f-up! They make me sick. This is not "Christian", this is "Man" and when the flesh is threatened, it wields it's earthly control.

I pray to God that the baptist "church" falls. I'm tired of their wackjob stories, exclusions, retarded judgement, and fake leaders who themselves get busted for trying to pick up male prostitutes who are actually cops http://365gay.com/Newscon06/01/010406lewdPastor.htm

[ShortnFiery]

84. Well, I'm also not big on organized religion

However, this elder lady, unlike her adversary, maintained her dignity. There's something going on under the surface. As church people go, I would not mind being this lady's neighbor. ;) But NOT the minister's. :(

[Divine Discontent]

150. ha!

like that last line... :) I do know some very wonderful ministers, and a whole bunch more I'd rather not see again.

[katinmn]

71. and these people have the gall to criticize Muslim fundamentalists

:crazy:

[Matariki]

76. Obviously a bunch of guys with serious problems with their mothers

[greiner3]

79. I just moved into a new apt;

And in the building adjacent is an elderly couple. In their window are several biblical passages written on paper. The woman wears long dresses and has long hair. God damn southern baptists. I say fuck them. I seem to recall a passage out of their holy book that goes something like 'They'll reap what they sow.'

[Guaranteed]

85. They're testing our civil rights laws.

They're trying to get the 1st and 14th Amendments into a cockfight.

We'll be seeing much more of this.

[Raydawg1234]

170. Fucking over women, yeah thats the way to win an election

[bloom]

89. I hope all the women leave - and the men too.

Or kick out the nut who came up with this idea.

[Joe Bacon]

95. I'm waiting for the "Reverend" to tell Ann KKKolter to shut up.

C'mon Rev, beat Ann down with your bible.

[Anakin Skywalker]

179. LOL! Good One.

[LostinVA]

96. Kicking out a grandmother who served the church for 54 years will backfire

This looks really, really bad. It'll be interesting to see what happens here...

[roguevalley]

97. why are these preachers always youngish pencil dicks? I could

SCREAM when some little pencil dick disses women. Fuck him and his mother and father and all the rest of the people who let him think (a) he's right to say this and (b) didn't slap his ass HARD growing up.

[tru_thordare]

103. Shall we exclude moms from motherhood as well?

Hello, where did this guy get his education in the first place? He didn't arrive on earth as a know-it-all,(or did he). Women played a major role instructing him from infancy to adulthood. Even his mother patiently taught him everything from language to toilet-training. But this guy needs to root out a 54-year veteran to remain pure before his god solely because she is a woman. Jesus would've done no such thing. These are the same kind of people that have cheered at the funerals of American soldiers citing that this nation permits gays to live in this country. What's next? Will they start burning witches again? We were quick to point out that the Taliban degraded their women excluding them from equal education, forcing them to wear burkas, and to be subservient to all men. It is a reassertion of oppression in America. If anything, this guy should keep his mouth shut and go back to the same Sunday School class she would otherwise teach; he could stand to brush up his basics. But if his congregation supports this decision, his church isn't worth attending in the first place.

[XemaSab]

130. Welcome to DU!

:bounce:

[TexasLawyer]

104. I hope that the Parishioners

don't wear mixed fabric together, like wool and cotton. The Bible says that's forbidden. The same verse (Deuteronomy 22) requires everyone to build a battlement on his roof.

Oh, and adulterers and girls who are not virgins on their wedding day are to be stoned to death.

http://bible.cc/deuteronomy/22-11.htm

[shadowknows69]

105. I know this Pastor personally

here's a link to a GD discussion where I posted the press releases he sent me.
<http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=364&topic_id=1953657&mesg_id=1954024>

[jseankil]

109. So members of the church had their grievances printed in the local paper

Including the woman who was let go and the Pastor did not like that. In addition there are other reasons the woman is being let go but due to "Christian courtesy" (give me a break!)the church is "refraining from making any public accusations against her".

Just come out with why she was fired, whoever thought it would be a good idea to use the excuse that she's female and she can't teach men via bible rules needs to be booted, what a PR disaster.

Can you share what grievances some church members had?

[bling bling]

119. It sounds like he's saying that he used gender as an excuse.

I understood what he was saying to mean it was basically easier to let her go by saying it was because she's a woman than for him to state the real reasons why he was letting her go. From your link:

"We had originally intended to include the various multifaceted reasons for the dismissal in our corresponds however after legal review it was recommended that we refrain from including issues that could be construed as slander and stick with “spiritual issues” that govern a church, which the courts have historically stayed out of. With threats of lawsuits in the past we wanted to try hard to not go down that road again."

Interesting. I'd love to hear the Sunday School teacher's thoughts/rebuttal on that statement.

Thanks for providing the press release. Maybe it is a little more complicated than the headline made it sound.

[Kailassa]

123. How cowardly. Making implications, but nothing concrete

that she could respond to.

Any actual accusation can be proved wrong, but that
is a disingenuous smear that she can never disprove.

[shadowknows69]

124. Completely agree

there's definitely more than meets the eye here.

[LostinVA]

128. He's teetering on the edge of libel here, too n/t

[melnjones]

158. Thanks for posting this info.

It's always good to hear more sides of a story, even though it still sounds a bit shady.

[BadGimp]

106. Crispy Kristians

[ladym55]

111. Christian Right Hates Women

The "Christians" of the Christian Right REALLY don't like women and REALLY don't want women to have any sort of power or say whatsoever. What worries me is how many women accept this junk because some white guy (usually with a southern accent) tells them "it's in the bible."

Women must be subservient. Women must be home being good mothers. The husband must be the head of the household. All of this flies in the face of what Jesus did during his lifetime and relies on MISinterpretation of select verses (often from Paul). :banghead:

I remember being given a book on being a young "Christian" woman by one of my fundie friends in college (I have spent my ENTIRE LIFE surrounded by well-meaning fundies who think I need to be saved). The book told me that to "catch an OC (Outstanding Christian)" I couldn't act "too smart." OCs didn't like smart women. So I promptly decided that OCs weren't for me. (and threw out the book)

It is scary how many women buy into this junk. The big mega-church in our city will NOT permit women in any leadership roles (isn't biblical). However, the church is packed and has more than 10,000 members. :grr:

[amb123]

134. Truer words have never been spoken

Why any self-respecting woman would want to be a Christian (or Moslem or Jew for that matter) is a mystetry to me.

[DarkTirade]

167. Anyone who takes the words of Paul seriously

should have their head examined. Falling off a donkey and hitting your head does not make you automatically an authority on a religion that you, up until this head trauma, did not even belong to.
And for those who don't know their biblical stories... yes, that is EXACTLY what happened to Paul. He fell off a donkey and hit his head. And then saw a bright light.
Can we say brain damage? :evilgrin:

[Zambero]

114. Tali-Banned

I wonder what sort of parting gift might have been provided by this church after 54 years of faithful service on the part of this woman? Perhaps a veiled burka?

[NMMNG]

115. When will he start kicking people out

for wearing gold and pearl jewelry, braided hair, and/or fabrics made of two different kinds of cloth? Those are also prohibited by the Bible.

[madrchsod]

117. he is not a believer in the words of christ

i`m sure she will find another church that will welcome her with open arms. i have a feeling christ isn`t to happy with preacher timmy

[lilypad_567]

118. got this from an internet source

Women are spiritually inferior and must submit to the authority of men.


In the religious bureaucracy of the ancient world, women were basically property. If she burned his toast, he could
divorce her and send her away destitute. If she saw a crime in progress and reported it to the police, her testimony in court would be thrown out--simply because she was a woman. Women weren't considered smart enough to recount what really happened.

Isn't that special?

Get this. Jesus gets crucified. His body is taken down and put in a guarded tomb.

Three days later, some of his female friends come to the tomb, the door is wide open, and nobody's inside. They're shocked. Butthey're even more shocked when Jesus shows up. He talks to them. These women are the first people to see this astonishing event and report it. The men don't believe it until they see for themselves.

Well here's the kicker: Had somebody invented this resurrection story out of thin air, they would *never* have said that women found the empty tomb--because women in that culture were considered inferior and unreliable anyway.

So what this proves is:

1) This story can't possibly be made up, because no person who invents such a hoax would ever put women in this role. The fact that women are the first witnesses to the fact virtually proves that Jesus DID actually rise from the dead. A conclusion that has staggering implications.

2) This also shows that Christianity considers women to be equal to men. Jesus had many women in his inner circle, and there were female leaders and prophetesses in the early church.

When religion runs amok, it's always in the interest of one of three things:


? Money

? Sex

? Power


Don't you agree?

And what could be more convenient than for selfish men to shove women around and say it's the will of God?

You know, the thing about genuine spirituality is that it isn't used as a weapon to control people. Yes, Jesus gave some pretty stern warnings and he talked about some heavy subjects. But how often do you see him bossing his followers around?

He didn't do that. Instead, he took off their shoes and washed their dirty feet to show them how they should serve each other. His life and death are the deep irony of God engaged in the humble service of mankind.

[Kailassa]

121. Sorry, you can't have it both ways.

Well here's the kicker: Had somebody invented this resurrection story out of thin air, they would *never* have said that women found the empty tomb--because women in that culture were considered inferior and unreliable anyway.

So what this proves is:

1) This story can't possibly be made up, because no person who invents such a hoax would ever put women in this role. The fact that women are the first witnesses to the fact virtually proves that Jesus DID actually rise from the dead. A conclusion that has staggering implications.

2) This also shows that Christianity considers women to be equal to men. Jesus had many women in his inner circle, and there were female leaders and prophetesses in the early church.

Either the early Christian church did consider women to be the equals of men, in which case the fact that they report the finders of the open tomb as being women is irrelevant to the truthfulness of the story,

or they considered women to be less than men, in which case your argument about the fact that women were the finders at least makes sense.

However there are other interpretations of those writings that can be made.

- According to the bible, Jesus was removed from the cross after only 6 hours by his friends, where he was taken to the tomb of a wealthy man. This was very different to normal practice, where it took a person about 24 hours to slowly die, and sometimes longer, and the body was afterwards thrown into a place for the corpses of those who were utterly disgraced. The herbs listed as being in the tomb can be used as antibiotics and restoratives.

I imagine Jesus was a very intelligent, spiritual, peace-loving person, like Martin Luther King, but some of his followers were trying to force him into being more political and stirring up a revolution around him. It is well within the bounds of possibility that people were using this incident to cast Jesus as the messiah by setting him up to be apparently killed on the cross, and then taking care of him so he could "rise from the dead" three days later. At the time people were looking for a messiah to unite the Jews to fight against the Romans who had taken over their country, and Jesus had the following and the charisma to do this.

The reason then for women being the ones to find the body would be that the men already knew! Not trusting women to keep the secret, they'd kept it to themselves, and saw that the truth never got out.

- Another interpretation is that the gospel writers knew that Jesus had not really risen from the dead, and having the discovery made by women was an indication written into the story that the account was not to be believed by those initiated into the group's secrets.

Of course there is no historical proof that Jesus even existed, but I like to believe that he did.

[melnjones]

159. Yes yes yes.

Thanks for posting this. If we really understood all the ways that the Bible elevates the status of women, this world would be a very different place.

[lilypad_567]

171. dear kal and jones

will i got this from the internet, it was written by this guy who talk about the difference between organize religion andspiritaulity, but i like what he wrote at the end


You know, the thing about genuine spirituality is that it isn't used as a weapon to control people. Yes, Jesus gave some pretty stern warnings and he talked about some heavy subjects. But how often do you see him bossing his followers around?

He didn't do that. Instead, he took off their shoes and washed their dirty feet to show them how they should serve each other. His life and death are the deep irony of God engaged in the humble service of mankind.

see, shouldn't fellow christian be like that, and if the minister was interpret it Italy, than he should try to read about jesus and his female friends, and how jesus live his life

[Kailassa]

122. Perfectly understandable. - His pedophile buddy wanted to do it. n/t

[FighttheFuture]

135. Osama would be proud of his support for his terrorist organization's...

beliefs!

[classics]

144. Shes just lucky they didn't stone her to death.

Or chop of her clitoris. Yay religion.

[Arugula Latte]

172. Yeah -- religion. Ugh.

The more I read about it, and the more I observe people quibbling over what this means and what that means, the more ridiculous it is. It's basically all crock. And harmful crock.

[erik-the-red]

145. That's pretty moronic

It would make sense if the letter was written on her first week of the job. But, 54 years?

I was once told by a friend that the quote from Timothy ("I do not permit a woman to teach...a man") has a historical background. According to him, women were not allowed the same educational opportunities as men. During service, they frequently asked questions because they did not understand some issues out of ignorance. The author of that quote wanted service to be more quiet.

If true, then LaBouf must have had a poor seminary background.

[KikiDisme]

155. Baptists are whack

I guess that preacher forgot about Galatians 3:28, "There is neither Jew nor Greek, slave nor free, male or female, for you all are one in Christ Jesus."

I think that cancels the other one out, don't you? And HEY, it was written by Paul, too!

I'm not going to get into the cultural significance of the "let the women keep silent in the churches" verses but be sure this isn't the first time someone has used it as an excuse to get rid of some uppity woman at a church.

I hope she finds a nice church the next time around.

[Anakin Skywalker]

178. This is one of the reasons why

I don't join any religious crappola. Religions inevitably find something to discriminate against.