Judge allows Ten Commandments monument (outside a courthouse)

[deadparrot]

OKLAHOMA CITY - A federal judge on Friday said a Ten Commandments monument outside a courthouse can stay, rejecting arguments that it promotes Christianity at the expense of other religions.

U.S. District Judge Ronald A. White in Muskogee ruled that Haskell County did not violate the Constitution by erecting the monument. The county did not "overstep the constitutional line demarcating government neutrality toward religion," he wrote.

The county argued that the monument outside the Stigler courthouse was part of a historical display that included other monuments recognizing war veterans, the Choctaw Tribe and others. The Ten Commandments monument has the Mayflower Compact etched on the other side.

"A significant factor is that someone comes and looks at all the monuments on the lawn, they can't just single out the Ten Commandments monument and say, `Ah ha!' and that means government is impermissibly endorsing religion," said Kevin Theriot, an attorney for the Haskell County commissioners.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060818/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments

[Maven]

1. Won't survive on appeal. nt

[Ian David]

2. This has nothing to do with favoring one belief over another...

[Broken_Hero]

9. damn, scary picture...

its satire, but true...:(

[Mr_Spock]

17. Good point

That is a rather direct commandment against our founding principals in thie country.

[dipsydoodle]

3. Last I heard the Ten Commandments

were from the Old Testament. Someone moved Moses into the New Testament ? Novel thought I suppose.

[pepperbear]

4. But no one ever posts the Magna Carta or the Code of Hammurabi...

Or even our own Constitution.

[dipsydoodle]

5. What's the Mayflower Compact

got to do with anything ? The original settlers were the equivalent of modern day Exclusive Bretheren. You got a huge bundle of those in the USA ?

edit spelling

[ismnotwasm]

6. How about the 42 commandments of ancient Egypt?

http://www.personal.psu.edu/users/w/x/wxk116/maat/

Of course the expense would be considerable.

[krispos42]

19. Ah, the joys of CNC machining

We can produce plenty of aluminum plates with whatever we want milled, punched, water-drilled, or plasma-cutc lean through it, like a stencil, so it never wears away. Then bolt the plate to a slab of marble or granite. Aluminum won't rust, so it will last a long time.

I would love to see the US Constitution, as amended, enshrined in nicely polished aluminum attached to a slab of quartz or granite.

[Tesha]

28. You can now go to the mall and get *ANYTHING* etched in stone...

You can now go to the mall and get ANYTHING etched in stone
including half-tone images. It's done with a gadget that mates a
flat-bed plotter and a sandblaster. The results are pretty good
and it can be done on a pretty large scale, something like "D"
sized.

Time to start cranking out plaques with alternative theologies
and showing up at your local aldermanic meetings, boards of
education, and the like, and demanding equal time.

Tesha

[krispos42]

32. We can do what they did in Reno 911! also....

overlay one of the Late Show's Top Ten lists onto a Ten Commandments monument... there are PLENTY of Bush ones to use! :rofl:

That is pretty neat, the sandblaster on an XY table. D size, is, what, 22x34 if I'm doing my math right. 8½x11 is A, 11x17 is B, 17x22 is C, 22x34 is D.

[Tesha]

34. My vague recollections...

22x34 is right for the image area, D-sized paper is 24x36.

But I can't say for certain what the actual printable,
err, "blastable" area was; I only took a quick look at
the machine as I was walking by in a hurry. Next time
I pass it at the mall, I'll try to pay closer attention! ;)

Tesha

[krispos42]

37. thanks, but don't kill yourself on my account...

I'm unlikely to be buying any monuments, even small ones, anytime soon. My paycheck doesn't stretch that far... :-)

[Blue_Tires]

27. great find

thanks

[MadMaddie]

7. Then the other religions should be able to display their

beliefs also....see many can play this game....

The question is do they really want to play. Will the people supporting this invite other religions to display and on the back they can display something else?

Why is it that the Churches don't display the monstrosities in front of their churches?

[TechBear_Seattle]

8. I have often thought that the best response would be...

For a Muslim group to take up a collection, commission a granite pillar etched with verses from the Quran (in the beautiful Moorish style calligraphy) and demand that it be placed right beside the 10 Commandments statues. Then a coalition of Wiccan covens can pool their money and get a bronze plaque that displays the Rede and demand that it be placed in proximity to the other religious monuments. And then the local atheists would have to get in on this as well, perhaps with a nice stained glass window that reads, "Think for your own damned selves."

If it really is not about promoting one religion over the others, all such requests would have to be honored, right?

[MadMaddie]

10. My thoughts exactly....

But what you will see is outrage....that other religions would request an opportunity to display their beliefs...

[PittPoliSci]

42. i think a few huge pentagrams

would drive everyone nuts.

erect them, let's see how tolerant people are.

[Secular Agent Man]

11. The "commandments" are a major judeo-christian hoax.

I'm as secular as can be, and as far as I'm concerned, these things can be plastered over every government building in the United States of America, and up the ass of every American official. They'll always be a monument to the folly of judaism and christianity. Just remember folks, history can be your friend. :think:

[Mr_Spock]

18. Clearly they are a hoax

But someone thought they were a good code at the time.

I suppose if you were an infant you might find it interesting to run your finger through the carvings.

[bronxiteforever]

12. "Thou shalt not covet your neighbor's ass" but what if you find

it quite alluring. from the "Vicar of Dibley":evilgrin:

[TankLV]

31. I loved that show - especially the jokes at the end.

And that poor secretary just would never get it...

[Ninja Jordan]

13. Not a battle worth fighting.

We have better things to deal with (warrantless wiretap, Iraq, election 2006).

[mac56]

14. Disagree.

Nothing wrong with multitasking.

[lynne]

15. "Old News?" was my first thought -

- then I checked and see that similar cases appeared in Ohio and Texas, both with the same results. Looks like it's even been before the Supreme Court. Knew I'd heard it before.

http://www.firstamendmentcenter.org/news.aspx?id=16793

Ten Commandments can stay on Ohio courthouse lawn

By The Associated Press
04.20.06

TOLEDO, Ohio — A Ten Commandments monument that has stood on the courthouse lawn for almost 50 years does not promote religion and can remain in place, a federal judge ruled.

<snip>

Carr's decision followed a ruling last year by the U.S. Supreme Court in Van Orden v. Perry that addressed displays of the Ten Commandments.

The Supreme Court in June allowed a 6-foot granite monument to remain at the Texas Capitol. Justices said Ten Commandments exhibits would be upheld if their main purpose was to honor the nation's legal, rather than religious, traditions, and if they didn't promote one religious sect over another.

[Igel]

24. New installations seem to be banned, esp.

if they're isolated, and definitely if they're inside.

Outside, part of assemblage of other monuments, and old enough ... it'll probably stay.

The last one I heard about was actually not put in by fundies or religious folk at all, but as part of a promo campaign for The 10 Commandments (the movie, as opposed to the actual religious injunctions).

[Zhade]

16. Violation. Unconstitutional ruling. Impeach the judge if possible.

NT!

[krispos42]

20. We need to remember that the Commandments are not all laws

and really don't need to be promoted as such.

Just to refresh our memory so we can all see what we're debating:

1. I am the LORD your God, who brought you out of the land of Egypt, out of the house of slavery; you shall have no other gods before me. You shall not make for yourself an idol, whether in the form of anything that is in heaven above, or that is on the earth beneath, or that is in the water under the earth. You shall not bow down to them or worship them; for I the LORD your God am a jealous God, punishing children for the iniquity of parents, to the third and fourth generation of those who reject me, but showing steadfast love to the thousandth generation of those who love me and keep my commandments.

2. You shall not make wrongful use of the name of the LORD your God, for the LORD will not acquit anyone who misuses his name.

3. Observe the sabbath day and keep it holy, as the LORD your God commanded you. Six days you shall labor and do all your work. But the seventh day is a sabbath to the LORD your God; you shall not do any work—you, or your son or your daughter, or your male or female slave, or your ox or your donkey, or any of your livestock, or the resident alien in your towns, so that your male and female slave may rest as well as you. Remember that you were a slave in the land of Egypt, and the LORD your God brought you out from there with a mighty hand and an outstretched arm; therefore the LORD your God commanded you to keep the sabbath day.

4. Honor your father and your mother, as the LORD your God commanded you, so that your days may be long and that it may go well with you in the land that the LORD your God is giving you.

5. You shall not murder.

6. Neither shall you commit adultery.

7. Neither shall you steal.

8. Neither shall you bear false witness against your neighbor.

9. Neither shall you covet your neighbor's wife.

10. Neither shall you desire your neighbor's house, or field, or male or female slave, or ox, or donkey, or anything that belongs to your neighbor.

I'm not going to repeat George Carlin's bit about the 10 Commandments. My thinking goes likes this: we can see that only three of these apply to secular law, numbers 5, 7, and 8. Don't murder, don't steal, and don't lie. The rest is how to act so you get into Judeo-Christian heaven. Something that is really really really not the concern of the US court system.

Unless the 10 Commandments are part of a historic legal display, I believe that they should be limited to private property.

<edit> Forgot to thank Wikipedia for the info!

[Tesha]

29. But what about Commandments XI through XV?

Didn't Moses bring down 15 commandments from the
mountain before the big thud/"Oy!"?

Tesha

[krispos42]

38. "I give you these 15 (thud) 10! 10 Commandments!"

I think one ofthe missing commandments is "Don't get involved in a land war in Asia". Another was "Thou shalt not spy on Americans", but the NSA and Bush kinda skipped that one, along with the one about lying (oh, man, there's an entire VOLUME of those), killing (Iraq war), stealing (2 federal elections), coveting his neighbor's wife (groping the German chancellor), coveting his neighbor's objects (Iraqi oil), and worshipping a false idol (the almighty dollar).

Uh-oh, sounds like somebody is going to be spending a lot of time someplace warmer than July in Texas...

[Tesha]

39. And...

> I think one ofthe missing commandments is "Don't get
> involved in a land war in Asia".

And:

"Never go up against a Sicilian when *DEATH* is on the line!"

Tesha

[krispos42]

43. I'm ¼ Sicilian, so from me only a flesh wound is on the line...

Just ask the Black Knight!

[mitchum]

21. Why are they posting laws specifically INTENDED for Hebrews?

I didn't know that Oklahoma had such a large population of mideastern herdsmen.
Learn something new everyday, I guess...

[opihimoimoi]

22. Bwahahaha...its them Levites leading the Hebrews to do this...

and worse, they violate the Ten Commandments all the time...

[Zhade]

23. The reason this is a violation: the ten commandments are not historical.

There is no evidence the ten commandments ever existed except in words.

The same can't be said for the other monuments, which document actual historical realities. The story of the commandments, and the alleged commandments themselves, may in fact be nothing more than myth.

[MasonJar]

25. In the first place the 10 Commandments are NOT Christian. I only

wish these wingnuts would live by them. They do not need them displayed; they know what the commandments are and they agressively ignore them in practice.

[PurityOfEssence]

26. I am the lord thy god, thou shalt have no other gods before me

Article One of the Bill of Rights is pretty damned clear about this. The establishment of religion isn't about the preference of one belief over another, it's about the very concept of belief itself.

Religion is exclusive, aristocratic and inherently anti-democratic. Once the very concept of the existence of a supreme whatever is accepted--never mind which version of this belief is anointed with social superiority--those outside of this belief are inferiors. They are less than others, which is anti-pluralist by nature. Worse than that, once one believes in the supernatural, one doesn't have to plead a reasonable case for a law or anything else; the invoked word of the big daddy trumps all.

It will just get worse. The world is changing at an ever accelerating pace and people are competing more and more for less and less. As a result, those doe-eyed believers and cynical hucksters who seek to sell happy safe answers will get more and more sway.

It doesn't look good.

Remember this: there's pro-religion, religion neutral and anti-religion. The opposite of banning overt religious statements on public land isn't taking the symbol away, it would be putting up something against religion. Those of the christian faith who demand the superiority to intrude upon others are extreme hypocrites. None of the major test cases seem to seek a proselytizing expression to denigrate religion, just to free us from the abuse of tacit acceptance.

The opposite of these commandments on public property isn't a lack of any expression; the opposite would be a crucifix with a red circle and diagonal slash superimposed. I have yet to hear that requested.

To endorse cosmic worldviews ON PUBLIC PROPERTY is to tell everyone else that they don't belong, are inferiors and should hope for nothing more than tolerance as guests.

[noonwitch]

30. It is outside the court building with other monuments, so...

The other monuments are war memorials and an indian tribal memorial thing. It also mentioned that the Mayflower Compact was engraved on the other side.

Context is everything in these cases. If it was in the lobby of the courthouse, that would imply an establishment of religion. I don't think it does so much outside of the court house, placed in an area with other monuments.

The judge was looking for an easy compromise. I can't say as I blame him for that.

[SoCalDem]

33. How quirky.. The 10 Commandment monuments were a Hollywood stunt

That's how they got scattered all over the place in the beginning.. The movie was coming out, and to get maximum coverage (no cable shows back then)..they sent out teams of publicists who placed the tablets all over the plpace to create a "buzz" about the movie :eyes:

I gues the joke's on the fundies.. they are fawning over a 50 year old HOLLYWOOD publicity stunt :)

[Felix Mala]

35. Funny, these morons are never as interested in posting the Bill of Rights

We should start a movement for an amendment requiring the posting of the BOR in every school, public building and court. Chisel them in 10 Commandments fashion:

I
Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the Government for a redress of grievances.

II...

[krispos42]

40. Silly Democrat! That makes far too much sense!

And how would THAT promote Pentecostalism or advance the Rapture? Why, that would be HELPING the president keep his oath of office! I do solemnly swear (or affirm) that I will faithfully execute the Office of President of the United States, and will to the best of my Ability, preserve, protect and defend the Constitution of the United States. And we can't have that when it is far more important do open the door for Jesus' return to Earth, now can we? :sarcasm:

And dear God! If we put all of the Amendments that the President's administration were violating right there in public venues, people might think he deserves impeachment and some times in a jail cell with a guy named "Bubbles". I mean, we don't want people reading the 4th Amendment, do we?

The right of the people to be secure in their persons, houses, papers, and effects, against unreasonable searches and seizures, shall not be violated, and no Warrants shall issue, but upon probable cause, supported by oath or affirmation, and particularly describing the place to be searched, and the persons or things to be seized

They might read that and say "Hey, he's wiretapping illegally because there is no warrant issued either before or after the fact! And because he won't stop and won't resign, then we must impeach him!" And how would THAT return the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords to Earth? THINK about all of the souls that won't be saved because the citizens INSIST on "following the law" and "following the Constitution" and removing the one person that can do it! :sarcasm:

And let's not even mention the 1st, 5th, 6th, 8th, 14th, or 15th Amendments! Because that would be working for the terrorists! Terrerists. You know what he means!

[JudyM]

41. That was my first thought. Post the source of our American values, people.

Apparently not many of our government leaders are mindful of them.

[cosmicdot]

36. activist judge appointed by Bu$h** in 2003

Ronald White replaced Carter-appointed Frank Howell Seay

what stealing the White House and the Senate majority has done


from private practice to a Federal judge


White, Ronald A.

Born 1961 in Sapulpa, OK

Federal Judicial Service:
Judge, U. S. District Court, Eastern District of Oklahoma
Nominated by George W. Bush on May 15, 2003, to a seat vacated by Frank Howell Seay; Confirmed by the Senate on September 30, 2003, and received commission on October 2, 2003.

Education:
University of Oklahoma, B.A., 1983

University of Oklahoma College of Law, J.D., 1986

Professional Career:
Private practice, Tulsa, Oklahoma, 1986-2003

Race or Ethnicity: White

Gender: Male



http://www.fjc.gov/public/home.nsf/hisj