Many Israelis see a strategic defeat

[ckramer]

Israeli analysts across the political spectrum branded the war against Hezbollah fighters in Lebanon ``an embarrassing defeat" for a ``semi-rookie government" that should have known the goals it set for itself were ``impossible to achieve."

Ha'aretz, one of Israel's leading daily newspapers, summed up the national mood by presenting readers with an online poll that asked: ``Who should resign?"

link

[ckramer]

1. I like that "semi-rookie government" thing

I call it semi fools.

[Sherman A1]

2. I think

the analysts are correct in their views. Really nobody won (certainly the Lebanese civilians), but Israel really didn't come away with the stunning military victory that was promised by their leadership.

[warrens]

3. Strategic?

I heard they lost an entire armored division. I'd call that "defeat" with a lot of "Collatoral damage."

[Solo_in_MD]

5. Not even close...

[tocqueville]

9. if you watch the same media that report that the US is winning in Iraq

from Fox to CNN, you have really no idea of what's going on. You should have seen the report sent on Israeli TV with soldiers interviews. It was devastating. The guys didn't even have flakjackets and functioning communication radios. A soldier expressed it : "it was a miracle that not more got killed". I saw filming of Merkava tanks being blown up by RPGs and mines. And those pictures didn't come from Al Jazzera, they came from standard European national TV teams.

[Kagemusha]

17. Assuredly some tanks were blown up. "Some."

Like I said, big difference between losing a division, and the division not being considered ready for offensive operations in a week.

[tocqueville]

19. I think that at least 20-25 tanks have been destroyed

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060810/wl_mideast_afp/mideastconflictisrael_060810173627

all sources say that the majority of the deaths inflicted to Israeli soldiers have been by anti-tank weapons.

let say that we take the official number of IDF casualties of 118 dead and 9 wounded (I think it's somewhat higher after the last raid, but there it seems that the casualties didn't involved tanks).

If you count 100 deaths in anti-tank fire (or mines), since the Merkava has a crew of 4, it means 25 tanks...
90 "tank deaths" = 22 tanks

Not counting the disabled tanks but causing no casualties.

So since an armoured division contains about 150 tanks, knocking out 25+ is like knocking out a brigade.

[Kagemusha]

21. Good analysis, can't argue.

It's mostly that the Merkava is *so* well armored that even this level of damage is considered shocking and unprecedented. Oh, I'm sure the tank still does great against old-style RPG-7's. But, there are better RPG's. (As in rocket-propelled grenades for non militarily inclined lurkers)

[Kagemusha]

6. "Lost" is a great exaggeration.

Now, one armored div may have had a bunch of tanks busted up to the point where it shouldn't be making a drive to Damascus next week. That's fair to say. But that's also about all that's fair to say.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. An armored division has hundreds of tanks

and no even Hezbollah is claiming that many were hit, let alone lost.

[Barrett808]

7. An entire *division*?

If true, wouldn't that be a stunning, large-scale defeat?

[Taverner]

4. I hope to see a Vote of No Confidence in Israel

Lebanon was a bad bad bad move, no matter which side of the fence you're on.

[elliswyatt]

8. now we can all make way for.....

the Likud party to rule again. Oh, how I despise Netanyahu.

[tnlefty]

10. Unfortunately that's what I was thinking!

And I also think that he's a piece of work.

And Welcome to DU, elliswyatt! :hi:

[liberalhistorian]

12. I was just thinking that, too,

sadly, I think that's exactly what will happen, which will only make things much worse.

And as for Israelis feeling they "lost"-what, they wanted even MORE innocent Lebanese casualties? Didn't they do enough damage, for God's sake?

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. I don't like Netanyahu either

But like Sharon, he would have never fallen for Bush & Cheney's bs that this was a good idea.

[agincourt]

11. That's what you get,

when you listen to Bush/Rove/Cheney

[fedsron2us]

13. Israel versus Hizbollah is just a warm up for the main event.

Both sides were just doing the bidding of their paymasters. Sadly, for the people of Lebanon it seems that their country has been chosen as the venue where others choose to wage their wars.

[rodeodance]

14. If Israel lost then so did the USA.

[Kagemusha]

18. I agree that the USA lost here too.

Bush claiming 'victory' just underlines the defeat.

[NeoConsSuck]

20. The White House Turd was the big loser

and his neocon pals. They were hoping to weaken Hezbollah and then pave the way for an attack on Iran.

Notice how the AWOL prick was so quick to claim an Israeli victory? In your dreams, georgie boy.

[ConcernedCanuk]

22. This was just a prelude for an attack on Iran by Israel IMO

.
.
.

True or not(most likely NOT)

There will be a "Iranian connection" created by the WH for this conflict.

I'll betcha there are megatons of bombs headed for Israel's arsenal courtesy of the USA

Iran is the next target of the USA

They ain't building over a dozen bases in Iraq to house the homeless and needy

(sigh)