Ahmadinejad: New Middle East should not include USA and Israel

[ECH1969]

Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Tuesday that his nation favors the new Middle East to come true in absence of the United States and the occupying Zionist regime.

"The arrogant powers aim to create a new Middle East to grant free hand to the US, Britain and the Zionist regime.

"Those, who think they can violate the rights of nations through propaganda campaign and conspiracy from the overseas, should know that they are making a serious mistake, because, nations in the Middle East are awakened and are making headway to victory through reliance on God," Ahmadinejad said.

http://www.albawaba.com/en/countries/Iran/201964

[Tempest]

1. He's got a point

The U.S. has no business forcing itself on the Middle East, and Israel has never considered itself part of the Middle East and has done nothing to integrate itself into the Middle East.


It will be interesting to see if a stronger Arab organization arises from the situation. The Arab League is as incompetent as the U.N.

[Zynx]

18. Why would Israel want anything to do with nations that want its downfall?

[Tempest]

22. You don't suppose Israel's actions have something to do with that?

Case in point:

During the assault, Hezbollah's medical clinics continued to operate. Hezbollah was also checking up on people and making sure they had what they needed to weather the assault.

Hezbollah has already started sending supplies into Lebanese cities to rebuild them.

If the U.S. and Israel did the same, don't you think that would change the people's thinking and lessen the support shown to Hezbollah and other radical groups?


And then there's the issue of Israel's violation of U.N. resolutions in their treatment of the Arabs, such as building illegal settlements in the West Bank.

When have they ever been a good neighbor?

[furman]

29. Incorrect: Israel treats Lebanese citizens in Israeli hospitals

...and Israel's settlements are actually on disputed territory.
They are not in violation of UN resolutions because a lasting peace has not yet been established.

[Snivi Yllom]

33. Hezbollah is not a nation, it's a terrorist proxy army of Iran & Syria

Lebanon is a nation. Lebanon should be protecting it's people from Hezbollah.

There is not supposed to be a Hezbollah any more, according to the UN.

Hezbollah is not all puppies and lolipops nor all loved in Lebanon.

[bunyip]

43. Hizb Allah's

Resistance and Development Bloc won 35 out of 128 seats in the 2005 elections in Lebanon. They are part of the Lebanese Government, and have two seats in cabinet.

There is no truth in your post.

[Snivi Yllom]

48. my statement is 100% accurate

the fact Hezbollah is embedded in the Lebanese government allows Iran and Syria to control Lebanon with political force as well as military force.


Hezbollah is a terrorist proxy arm of Iran and Syria

[bunyip]

52. No.

the fact the Democratic party is embedded in the American government allows International Communism to control America with political force as well as military force.

The Democratic party is a terrorist proxy arm of International Communism.

Freepers use that tactic too.

The Zero Fact Movement.

[Snivi Yllom]

53. ????

you lost me there

[bunyip]

55. Loudly asserting something does not make it true.

People whose opinion has no basis in reality use loud assertions as a substitute for facts.

[Snivi Yllom]

64. whatever, does not change the fact Hezbollah is a terrorist proxy army

of Iran and Syria that allows them to attack Israel.

Prior to the recent fighting, Israel was withdrawn from Israel. There was no reason for Hezbollah to exist as a fighting force other than to harass Israel and be ready as a forward fighting force for Iran and Syria.

[furman]

28. Incorrect: Israel has always wanted peace with it neighbors

Peace can be achieved by having Arab leaders genuinely reach out for it.

There will be no peace as long as there are terrorist attacks, suicide bombers, and rockets being shot at Israel.

[stepnw1f]

41. Really... They Sure Don't Act Like It

Maybe in the past under different government control, but not now..... and man o' man did this new neo-con Israeli government fuck up big time. Peace in this country has become an Orwellian term.

[Occulus]

46. deleted

nevermind

[Yupster]

49. How is Israel any of Iran's

business anyway. He needs to mind his own business and that doesn't knclude Israel or Palestine. Who made him mapmaker for other countries?

[Snivi Yllom]

2. I hate to break it to Ahmadinejad

But Israel is not going anywhere, and US foreign policy will always be intertwined in the Middle East.

Israel will be around a lot longer than Mahmoud Ahmadinejad will be the President of Iran.

[endarkenment]

3. I don't think this is an actual news source.

Seems like more of a blog than anything else.

[eccles12]

35. And the quote I heard was "A new ME should be free of US and UK

influence." I didn't hear a translation of the entire speech but the quote that was given on the TV did not say " should not include US or Israel."

[Name removed]

4. Deleted sub-thread

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[angstlessk]

5. As much as I think this guy is a fanatic...lets be fair...he said REGIME

not Israel...we said Sadaam's regime cannot stand...we NEVER said Iraq should be wiped off the face of the earth... AND WE INVADED AND OCCUPIED...something Iran will NEVER do to Israel...EVER!

[enigma000]

6. I don't think he's talking about the Kadima-Labor coalition government

And I doubt he is suggesting Likud should be in power.

[endarkenment]

8. No he is referring to the government that runs around invading

its neighbors, and the other government that sends its vast armada overseas to invade nations that are not its neighbor.

[Zynx]

16. How many aggressive wars has Israel actually started without provocation?

1948? No. 1967? Much more the other way around. 1973? See 1967. First Invasion of Lebanon? The PLO was launching attacks on Israel from Lebanon and destablizing the country. Gulf War? Israel actually sat on its hands and took it. This mess? Hezbollah did all it could to provoke Israel and did it well. Fortunately for Hezbollah, Israel forgot how to fight a real war.

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

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[furman]

30. Israel fights only defensive wars

I think that Israel was reluctant to fight a "real war" as you call it.
Hence the extended air campaign instead of a earlier ground effort.

[Snivi Yllom]

31. Israel may have to remember those survival skills

soon

[bunyip]

45. Nonsense

1948 - Israel and Palestinians equally to blame.
1956 - Israel invades Egypt to seize the Suez canal.
1967 - Israel launched a preemptive strike against Egypt.
1973 - Syria and Egypt attack Israel
1982 - Israel invades Lebanon after decades of mutual cross-border raiding with the PLO.
2006 - Israel invades Lebanon after years of mutual cross-border shelling and raids with Hizb Allah.

And the scores are:
Israel______________4
Neighbors___________1
Draw________________1

But Israel has racked up many more assassinations, bombings and raids than all its neighbors combined. That should be worth another point.


Edited for spelling and completeness

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

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[Snivi Yllom]

50. wrong about 1948

Israel was attacked by multiple nations.

Palestine could have had a state in 1948, the neighbors of Israel choose to throw that deal away.

[bunyip]

51. wrong about 1948

Israel was assisted by multiple nations, including the Soviet Union, which sent vast quantities of the latest weapons to its "Socialist brothers" through Czechoslovakia.

http://users.ox.ac.uk/~ssfc0005/Israel%20between%20East%20and%20West%201948-56.html

The United States, the Soviet Union and most other states recognized Israel soon after it declared independence on May 14, 1948, and immediately indicted the Arabs for their aggression. The United States urged a resolution charging the Arabs with breach of the peace.

- Jewish Virtual Library (ludicrously biased, but good to cite on this point)

Tit-for-tat reprisals between Zionists and (Arab) Nationalists had been waged for years, but conventional war only began in April 1948.

Under British rule, a Muslim carrying a three-inch knife in public was punished by execution, while Irgun and Haganah terrorists swaggered around with submachine guns. When British rule ended and open war broke out, Palestinian farmers armed mostly with pitchforks and muskets were no match for trained Haganah and Irgun troops backed by tanks, aircraft and artillery.

Troops sent by the newly independent Arab rulers intervened in May 1948. Inherited from the Colonial regimes and gendarmes more than as soldiers, they fared little better against Soviet-made artillery and British-made aircraft.

I don't doubt the leaders on both sides in 1948 were equally ruthless and self-serving as they fought for rulership of newly de-colonised lands. Only one side, however, had vast financial resources and the support of both superpowers. That side managed to ethnicly cleanse 78% of Palestine of most of its native people.

Poor Little Israel and the Big Bad Arabs...

[Zynx]

66. In 1967 it was very clear that Egypt and Syria were going to attack.

Israel struck first for its own survival.

Suez too was a situation in which Nasser had been raising tensions with Israel for quite some time and the aggressive action of seizing the canal zone made Israel very nervous. It was not unprovoked.

[Behind the Aegis]

7. Let's be accurate...

"Zionist Regime" = "Israel"

He doesn't mean the Israeli government, Olmert, Kadima, or anything other than the State of Israel. He considers Israel as "Occupied Territory."

[endarkenment]

9. Iran offered to join into a comprehensive peace agreement

including full recognition of Israel and normalization of relations, and was dismissed out of hand by the US government.

[Behind the Aegis]

12. Is this the so-called "Arab peace" plan?

That was floated about, but even members of the Arab League were not happy with it. And, of course, that was BEFORE the current Iranian president. Or are you talking about something else?

[angstlessk]

10. So, according to you All Jews are Zionists? is that what you are saying?

cause I thought Zionists in Israel were the equal to neo cons in the USA...am I wrong here?

[Behind the Aegis]

15. You would be in error.

All Jews are not Zionists. All Zionists are not Jews. Zionism and "neo-cons" have nothing to do with one another. Modern-day Zionists see Israel as a state and that she should remain one. There are very few "expansionists" Zionists, but they hold no real power.

However, for many anti-Semites and confused folks, "Zionism" is a 'code-word.' Such is the case with the Iranian president.

[Zynx]

17. Yes. Zionism when not in a historical context is usually a code-word.

I do not trust anyone who uses the word to refer to all of Israel.

[zreosumgame]

20. no more then I trust anyone who shouts anti-semite

and thinks they have 'solved' anything.

[Snivi Yllom]

13. let's not pretend we are 6 years old

He means Israel.

[Zynx]

14. Oh please.

If you have followed the rhetoric in this region at all you know full well that Israel is not even seen as a nation. They call it the "occupying Zionist entity" or the "Zionist Regime" or something along those lines.

[bluestateguy]

11. He's still a racist asshole

And don't any of you "Soft on Bush" police dare give me any shit because I said that.

[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[Snivi Yllom]

23. It's amazing how some can get it so so wrong

I just need to shake my head some times.

[Tempest]

26. And yet you don't show where he got it wrong

Dissect his post instead of dismissing it out of hand.

Or is that too much to ask?

[Name removed]

42. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[furman]

24. It looks to me like Ahmadinejad wants to cause 100,000s of casualties

Your analysis is completely wrong.

[Tempest]

27. How so?

Where is he wrong?

[furman]

32. The Israeli government takes Ahmadinejad at his word

Ahmadinejad wants Israel destroyed.
Israel will not let that happen.
You have already seen how ferocious Israel can be when fighting a defensive war.

Ahmadinejad denies that the Holocaust took place.
To deny the Holocaust is to deny Jews and Europeans a large part of their history.

[MysteryToMyself]

63. We can't control other's thoughts, but we can control our reaction to them

That is more of a war with words. It wouldn't be defense unless they attacked Israel. And then it should be in proportion to what they do.

[struggle4progress]

37. Ahmadinejad: Wipe Israel off map

Wednesday 26 October 2005, 19:03 Makka Time, 16:03 GMT

... "As the Imam said, Israel must be wiped off the map," said Ahmadinejad, referring to Iran's revolutionary leader Ayat Allah Khomeini.

His comments were the first time in years that such a high-ranking Iranian official has called for Israel's eradication, even though such slogans are still regularly used at government rallies ... http://english.aljazeera.net/NR/exeres/15E6BF77-6F91-46EE-A4B5-A3CE0E9957EA.htm

Hardly nuanced: Ahmadinejad's an a****** ...

[MysteryToMyself]

65. I wouldn't go by that paper

I have heard that it has been bought by Foxites.

[daleo]

34. He isn't calling for the elimination of Israel here

None of the direct quotations say that the middle east should not include "the Zionist regime".

The imputed quote "Iranian President Mahmoud Ahmadinejad said on Tuesday that his nation favors the new Middle East to come true in absence of the United States and the occupying Zionist regime" doesn't call for the elimination of Israel either ("occupying Zionist regime"), just that it (and the U.S.) should not have influence over the transformations that would lead to "the new Middle East". At any rate, that's one reasonable interpretation.

He may or may not mean that in his secret heart, but that's not what he says in the article. The headline implies more than the story delivers, which is often the case with stories about Iran.

[struggle4progress]

38. He does openly call for the destructionm of Israel. See #37.

[daleo]

54. Perhaps in that quote he does

Although I recall some posts that said it wasn't a very good translation.

I don't want the elimination of Israel, but I don't want a western crusade against Iran, either. I fear these quotes are efforts to steer public opinion in that direction.

[struggle4progress]

57. This is a complicated psychological territory. There's no question

that the Cons want a general war in the Middle East, which they hope involves Iran and Syria: such efforts must be blocked, not only because steps in that direction threaten humanitarian disasters rather greater we have just witnessed in Lebanon, but also because the blowback from such adventures will poison international relations for generations.

To further their aims, the Cons continue to produce demonizing propaganda, intended to soften resistence to their war plans. And much of this propaganda is pernicious on multiple levels: for example, the nuclear hysteria (which the Cons have been whipping up against Iran) appears to have no evidentiary basis, is intended to undermine the NPT and the UN, and distracts from ugly nuclear developments in India and Pakistan (which the Administration actively encourages in one case and blindly ignores in the other case). It seems clear to me that such propaganda must be actively resisted, by insisting upon Iran's right as an NPT signatory to engage in NPT-protected activities, including nuclear power development (and I say this despite being opposed to nuclear power and not fond of the Iranians' theocratic state).

On the other hand, there is an ugly exterminationist streak that runs through Middle Eastern politics: one always hopes that it can be deflected or rearranged; and from a diplomatic standpoint, perhaps the proper response is to pretend that statements were misquoted or mistranslated or misunderstood (thus graciously providing room for backtracking); but on a realist view, one must note that this ugly streak exists, while remaining optimistic that it is not universal. The evidence, as far as I can tell, rather clearly indicates Ahmadinejad has disgusting anti-semitic views, and this colors my thinking about him. Of course, the theory -- that it is acceptable to bomb regions if local political leaders hold idiotic, inhumane, or prejudiced ideas -- can be rejected immediately, since adopting the theory would provide immediate moral justification for reducing cities like Dallas TX (or Jerusalem) to rubble.

In summary, I agree with your assessment that anti-Iranian propaganda is intended to justify some unacceptable intervention and with your idea that the actual facts must be exposed clearly but disagree with you on the issue of Ahmadinejad's anti-semitism.

[MysteryToMyself]

60. Can we reject that theory except for Texas ?

You got that right. I added a few more that would be endangered.

The theory that it is acceptable to bomb regions if local political leaders hold idiotic, inhumane, or prejudiced ideas should be rejected immediately, since adopting the theory would provide immediate moral justification for reducing cities like Washington and any city that Bush and other Bushite leaders are speaking from, to rubble.

Can we reject the theory except for Texas?
:yoiks: :rofl:

[Warren Stupidity]

36. Is there a reputable link for this story?

Better yet can anybody provide any evidence that www.albawaba is a credible source?

[Megahurtz]

39. I wouldn't want it to

include the U.S. or Isreal either.:shrug:

[BushOut06]

40. Um, what exactly would you like to see happen to Israel?

In your ideal world that doesn't include Israel in the Middle East, what becomes of Israel? Would you simply dissolve Israel as a nation, and give the land back to the Palestinians? Do you agree that Israel should be relocated to Europe?

[Megahurtz]

44. I just wouldn't want either of them in control

since they both seem a little too controlling to begin with. That's my point.

[AlienGirl]

56. What Ahmadinejad is saying is he wants them both GONE

That is a different kettle of fish from "not in control," in my opinion...

Tucker

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

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[cali]

59. "Both Israel and the Palestinians

are threatening, violent people. PRIMITIVE." One of the dumber comments I've seen lately. It tarnishes and discredits your entire post.

[MysteryToMyself]

61. 30+ days of violence shows they are both Primitive

The unnecessary death and destruction is hard to ignore. I feel the same about what we are doing in Iraq. It is the leaders who are primitive, not the people. Well, except for those who are primitive too.

War isn't smart.

[MysteryToMyself]

62. We would have been farther along in the Mid East

by diplomacy and compensation. It may have taken longer, but then again it may not have. How far did these wars set us back in our relationships over there?

America was always the peace broker and used diplomacy until Bush and Condi. Condi didn't want to have to go back, she wanted to go shopping instead, probably. Maybe someone should tell her that sometimes she is expected to do a few things she doesn't want to just to keep people from dying. Compensation would have been cheap compared to the costs of all that has happened.

.:think:

War is reptilian

[Moderator]

67. locking

This has become inflammatory.