Castro: I feel very happy (First pictures of Castro -post surgery)

[Mika]

http://www.juventudrebelde.cu/

"For all those who care about my health, I promise to fight for it."

"To the people of Cuba, infinite gratitude for your loving support. The country is marching on and will continue marching on perfectly well."

[Judi Lynn]

1. Wow, Mika! Way to go.

Maybe this is also a conspiracy to keep the U.S. from being able to invade Cuba, as well, theis "appearance" of recovery!

He does look tired, but who wouldn't be?

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's the CNN report:

Castro feels 'happy' on 80th birthday
Official paper publishes statement, first photo since illness

Sunday, August 13, 2006; Posted: 5:53 a.m. EDT (09:53 GMT)

HAVANA, Cuba (AP) -- The first photographs of Fidel Castro since his illness two weeks ago were published Sunday in Cuba's Communist Youth newspaper with a statement by the Cuban leader saying on his 80th birthday: "I feel very happy."

"For all those who care about my health, I promise to fight for it," said the statement attributed to Castro in Juventud Rebelde newspaper.

"To the people of Cuba, infinite gratitude for your loving support. The country is marching on and will continue marching on perfectly well."

The online edition of the newspaper also published four photographs of Castro wearing what looked like a white and red running suit.
(snip/...)

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/08/13/cuba.castro.ap/index.html

[Mika]

3. Remember, the Miami exiles claimed that the Elian pics were faked

This morning, Miami's local early newscasts are showing the pics and are interviewing prominent Miami Cuban "exile" leaders (Basulto, Ninoska Perez, Raul Saul Sanchez) who ALL are claiming, right now, that these picture could be faked.

[Say_What]

42. Couldn't get article to load. Here's another from BBC:

Cuba media show 'improving' Fidel

<clips>

The paper also carried an 80th birthday message attributed to Mr Castro, saying he was recovering but warning Cubans to be ready for "adverse news".

He has not been seen since he handed power temporarily to his brother.

Raul Castro has made his first public appearance since taking over, welcoming Venezuela's president to Havana.

Official birthday celebrations were cancelled but the Cuban capital held a giant concert on Saturday.

The pictures released by the Juventud Rebelde newspaper show Mr Castro speaking on the phone and holding Saturday's edition of the Communist Party newspaper Granma, in an apparent move to show the pictures are current.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4787805.stm

[0007]

4. Man does Castro look good!! Maybe a tad tired, 'eh?

Perhaps junior sent Fidel a get well card with Jesus's love?

[Rufus T. Firefly]

16. I hope if I have abdominal surgery at 80

that I look half as good. He looks old and tired; however he doesn't look weak or on his last legs.

[mom cat]

28. I was thinking the same thing. If I look that good at 80, I will call

myself one lucky person.

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. I wonder what those Miami Cubans

who were celebrating his death last week going to do now?

[0007]

5. Stomach operations?

[Joe Chi Minh]

32. Reminds me of the joke about Franco's deathbed scene on the

hospital balcony - except the other way round.

Crowd: "Bye bye, Franco! Bye, bye, Franco...!"
Franco: "Where do they think they're going...?"

In this case, the question, uttered by Fidel, would make perfect sense, much to their consternation and confusion.

[smirkymonkey]

51. Reminds me of Monty Python's "Holy Grail"

The Dead Collector: Bring out yer dead.

Large Man with Dead Body: Here's one.
The Dead Collector: That'll be ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: What?
Large Man with Dead Body: Nothing. There's your ninepence.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not dead.
The Dead Collector: 'Ere, he says he's not dead.
Large Man with Dead Body: Yes he is.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm not.
The Dead Collector: He isn't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, he will be soon, he's very ill.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I'm getting better.
Large Man with Dead Body: No you're not, you'll be stone dead in a moment.
The Dead Collector: Well, I can't take him like that. It's against regulations.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I don't want to go on the cart.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, don't be such a baby.
The Dead Collector: I can't take him.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel fine.
Large Man with Dead Body: Oh, do me a favor.
The Dead Collector: I can't.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, can you hang around for a couple of minutes? He won't be long.
The Dead Collector: I promised I'd be at the Robinsons'. They've lost nine today.
Large Man with Dead Body: Well, when's your next round?
The Dead Collector: Thursday.
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I think I'll go for a walk.
Large Man with Dead Body: You're not fooling anyone, you know. Isn't there anything you could do?
The Dead Body That Claims It Isn't: I feel happy. I feel happy.

[Say_What]

48. They're gonna say it's a double like they did Elian ;-)

Meanwhile, they're the ones showing up in the El Nuevo Herald obits. :bounce:

[DoYouEverWonder]

75. Except for the ones

that are still in jail at the moment.

LOL. Castro's going to outlive them all.

[Judi Lynn]

76. Were you referring to Cuban "exile" bomber/mass murderer Luis Posada?

He may not be in jail long, if _Bush pardons him, just as his father pardoned Luis Posada Carriles's accomplice (Orlando Bosch Avila) in the Cubana air liner bombing and murder of 73 people IN FLIGHT, who had no option whatsoever but to perish.

Things are looking good for him to get that pardon, too, just as his collegue did, both of them contracted, as acknowledged in an interview with the New York Times, by the Cuban American National Foundation in Miami, and both of them men who worked for the C.I.A.

Unfortunately, these terrorists have the full protection of the U.S. right-wing Presidents behind them, and they will undoubtedly outlive Fidel Castro. They are filthy, evil barely human dregs.

[DoYouEverWonder]

78. While another mass murderer Orlando Bosch

sips cafe con leches on Calle Ocho.

At least they got their buddy with the yacht, Santiago Alvarez. Looks like 'Return to Bay of Pigs' got put off again.

[Mika]

79. Funny how DU's anti Castro Cuba "experts" never acknowledge that..

.. Cuba's government has legitimate concerns in regards to terrorist attacks sponsored from US shores (state and non state sponsored terra). There is a long history os this terrorist activity from US shores/agents. Many claim that those unregistered agents on the payroll of said US state and non state entities who are arrested are merely innocents trying to speak their minds. HRW and AI rarely if ever acknowledge this also.

[Judi Lynn]

80. Santiago Alvarez: just one of a whole swarm of murderers free in Miami!

Found a photo of Santiago Alvarrez, yukking it up with Guillermo Novo, who was one of the four would-be bombers/mass murderers who were caught in Panama with the bombing materials interrupting their plan to blow up the auditorium where Fidel Castro was speaking to a crowd.

Another miscarriage of justice when Mireya Moscoso pardoned them the very day before the end of her Presidency of Panama, and her move to Miami, where they are now.

Terrorists Arrested In Miami
by Jane Franklin
December 10, 2005

Among the many terrorists in Miami, two have finally been arrested. Santiago Alvarez and Osvaldo Mitat were picked up on November 18 and 19 and charged with possession of numerous weapons, including fully automatic machine guns along with ammunition, grenades along with a grenade launcher, explosives along with blasting caps. Serial numbers on some of the guns had been filed off. A briefcase held a pistol along with a silencer. In addition, Santiago Alvarez is charged with attempting to receive a counterfeit passport in his name--a Guatemalan passport even though he has no claim to Guatemalan citizenship. Alvarez is a legal permanent resident of the United States who has retained his Cuban citizenship.

Osvaldo Mitat is a Cuban-American. At the time of his arrest, he said, "Unfortunately, you guys are doing your jobs and we got caught with a bunch of guns. I love the United States....These guns were not meant to be used against this country."

There is of course no mystery about which country they were going to be used against. Santiago Alvarez is a real estate mogul with plenty of cash to finance attacks against Cuba. Like his good friend, notorious terrorist Luis Posada, Alvarez left Cuba soon after the Revolution of 1959. And, like Posada, he has been waging a campaign of violence against the island ever since. For example, on October 12, 1971, aboard a speedboat under cover of darkness, terrorists machinegunned the fishing village of Boca de Samá, killing two people and wounding three others, including two sisters, 15-year-old Nancy and 13-year-old Angela Pavón, who were asleep at the time of the raid. Nancy Pavón's foot had to be amputated. Recently, at a speech given by Fidel Castro, she sat among victims of terrorists who have killed and maimed Cuban citizens and other people for four-and-a-half decades. According to Cuban intelligence, Alvarez was aboard that speedboat.

The CIA knows who these terrorists are. The CIA trained them. As Luis Posada told New York Times reporters in 1998, "The CIA taught us everything--everything....They taught us explosives, how to kill, bomb, trained us in acts of sabotage." Even as the Bush Administration claims to be waging a war on terror, terrorists have continued to wage their war against Cuba with impunity.

Alvarez has been a financial backer and spokesman for Luis Posada. Alvarez says he buys Posada's paintings. He admits the paintings aren't very good but says that's how Posada makes his living. In the year 2000 Alvarez must have bought some very expensive paintings to finance Posada's attempt to assassinate Fidel Castro in Panama City. Thanks to Cuban intelligence agents, the plot was exposed to Panamanian police, who arrested Posada and his team of assassins, saving the lives of some 1500 people, mostly students, who might have been blown up along with Castro in the university auditorium where Castro spoke.
(snip/...)

http://64.233.187.104/search?q=cache:1Y40AMCFBr8J:www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm%3FItemID%3D9299+%22Santiago+Alvarez%22+Miami&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

[malaise]

6. Happy 80 th Birthday to the

beloved Fidel. Thanks Mika.

[MikeyJones]

132. Yo

Beloved Fidel? The guy's a murdering dictator for heaven's sake. Have some of us fallen on our heads?

[Judi Lynn]

138. Why don't you post some links to your murdering dictator claims?

You could educate everyone here with some supporting information.

[MikeyJones]

145. Read up

http://web.amnesty.org/report2004/cub-summary-eng

[Judi Lynn]

146. Yeah, right! Those three men staged an armed hostage taking seizure

of a boat, holding knives to the throats of their hostages. Some of the hostages leaped over the sides of the boat to escape.

Fidel Castro murdered them? Uh, NO. They were executed, just as murderers are executed here, in your own country.

They were not murdered for dissent. Don't even try to pass that off. A lot of clowns attempt to combine the stories, but it doesn't work.

[MikeyJones]

152. That came from Amnesty International......

if you won't take their evidence of human rights abuses then I think it's pretty well certain you won't take anything.

If you like a murdering thug of a dictator then be my guest. The man is a exploiter who lives in a mansion while most Cubans live in squalor and poverty.

Again, if you like that kind of a man -- whatever floats your boat. But Communists in my book -- at least those who justify the types of Communism we've seen imposed on oppresed peoples around the world for the past 75 years -- are no more lovers of freedom and democracy than Hitler and his hoards of brownshirted thugs.

So whatever floats you boat. If you can live with that kind of stigma then you've got a thicker hide than I do.

[Judi Lynn]

157. Where would one look for evidence Cubans are poorer than other

citizens of the Caribbean or Latin America?

You're sidestepping the issue Cubans have better health, longer lives, lower infant mortality rates, better education, etc., etc., etc. per capita than the rest of the Latin American countries, and Caribbean islands.

Cuba as it was had only seasonal work for the vast majority of Cubans, who were extremely poor. That's where some of your reading should have been spent: you need to know where they were before the revolution.

A dose of reality would give you the perspective you lack.

The Cuban revolutions didn't come from outer space. There was a desperate need for extreme change for the poor, and VERY downtrodden or the fire of patriotism would have never swept across the country and the move to throw the monsters out.

If they accomplished this against Batista's US-donated war planes, and tanks, and weaponry, don't you think they'd do it now? After all, the Cuban citizens are ARMED, in case you didn't know.

[Mika]

190. Oh yeah! Playing the HITLER card.

MJ, please post some photos of this mansion that Mr Castro lives in. Surely if this is such an egregious act against Cubans then surely there are photos to demonstrate such. (BTW, I've been to Cuba and have seen the places where Castro lives in both Havana and Santiago - both of which are quite modest for any Head of State.)

As Ms Lynn has pointed out, the executed persons that you (and AI) mention were criminals, armed violent hostage takers using guns and holding knives to the throats of small children, not 'dissidents'. AI is opposed the the death penalty in general (as am I) - that is their complaint. That being the case, then Cuba compares quite favorably to the US (or even one state in the US - Texas, or Florida).

Comparing Mr Castro to Hitler is beyond the pale, and has zero merit in any serious discussion about Cuba. :crazy:

[StClone]

7. I can forgive the man

He once had nukes pointed at the U.S. They were removed and so the imperious powers economically nuked his country. I wish him a long life.

[jseankil]

72. He's such a lovely dictator. (sarcastic) /nm

nm

[StClone]

92. He is no match

For Bush. With all the powers at his command maniacal Bush is ipso facto Dictator and not a lovely at that. No sarcasm.

[MUSTANG_2004]

93. After Bush arrests librarians who disagree with him

We'll talk about comparing Castro to Bush.

http://www.villagevoice.com/news/0406,hentoff,50891,6.html

Nat Hentoff has no doubts about who is worse: "I know that if I were a Cuban, I would be in prison."

[StClone]

94. Up the ante

For starters when Castro rises to invade another country kills a few hundred thousand innocents we'll talk. Until then Castro is a Banana Republic Bush leaguer who is loved by at least 75% of his people.

[MUSTANG_2004]

95. Sigh. Words matter.

A dictator isn't defined as someone who starts a war unnecessarily. A dictator is someone who rules absolutely. When the critics and opponents of Bush are thrown in jail, then we can talk about his being a worse tyrant than Castro.

If starting an unnecessary war of aggression makes one a dictator, then William McKinley and LBJ would qualify, but I doubt, apart from perhaps yourself and a handful of others, many people would define them as dictators.

[StClone]

96. Words matter and alas

Deeds matter more.

If you want to couch an argument in an exacting usage of terms that's good if it makes you feel that you've done a service to humanity. I prefer to level this on equating terms comparing deeds done. Castro's deeds come to chicken feed compared to guy with Authoritarian personality like Bush that has a proven track record of undermining his country's Constitution, multiple incidents of torture and invade a sovereign nation that had not threatened us.

Castro has his faults and I draw on Japan and Germany as examples of how past enemies are treated by the U.S. If you wish to point out that because our Republic only recognizes other Democratic Governments that's why we still embargo Cuba then what is it with Bush's best buddy the Saudi Royals who saw fit to be homies to a nest of 9-11 perps.

[MUSTANG_2004]

97. If you use the wrong words

then the arguments don't matter. Want to claim Bush has caused more harm to the US more than Castro has, then have at it. I'll happily take your side. But claiming he is a worse dictator will put you on the losing side every time, simply by consulting a dictionary and reading the definition of dictator.

I don't wish to point out anything about why Cuba is treated as it is, since much of how we treat any country has as much to do with our internal politics as it does with the attributes of the country. I will note that comparing Cuba to a defeated Germany/Japan doesn't make sense, since Cuba hasn't been defeated and still has a decidedly unfriendly government in charge.

Regardless of the US official relationship with Cuba, I have no difficulty in saying that Castro is a tyrant who uses his power to cruelly crush peaceful dissent. As far as dealing with internal dissent, Bush and Castro aren't on the same plane.

[StClone]

99. True

I was aware of my misuse of the lexicon. What me worry when Bush coughs up Islamo-fascists and Rush tosses up neologisms such as Feminazi or Hezbos to audiences of millions?

Today on BuzzFlash there is this editorial -- note what I highlighted:

-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
More Evidence of Bush Administration Treason: The Valerie Wilson Affair Revisited
Submitted by BuzzFlash on Mon, 08/14/2006 - 5:01am. Editorials

August 14, 2006

A BUZZFLASH EDITORIAL

On Sunday, BuzzFlash posted an editorial accusing the Bush Administration of treason.

It is a subject worthy of a book.

Their priority is not to fight terrorism, as we have said many a time. Their priority is the accumulation of dictatorial powers, primarily by using terrorism as a tool for doing away with our civil liberties.

To such a Cheney/Rumsfeld/Bush/Rove mindset, WE are the collateral damage in a campaign to achieve one-party tyrannical rule. They crave power, and they are the ultimate elitists.

Like a Pinochet, they believe that they are restoring some fantasy of "patria" to a nation of sheep, lost in the chaos of liberty and freedom.

...more at...

http://www.buzzflash.com/articles/editorial/71

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

What is with a site as well-known as BuzzFlash editorializing with the use of such terms when obviously there has been no formal state findings to such? Shall we e-mail them?

As I type Randy said the word -- yikes -- Dictator in relation to Bush.

In exchanges I have crafted to wingers I took pains to make delineate the terms and facts I used to no avail.

And so be it.

[StClone]

98. True

I was totally aware of my misuse of the lexicon.

[nine30]

134. really ?

"(Castro) is loved by at least 75% of his people."

And you got that number from where? Or is it the number officially released by that thug's regime ?

[nine30]

139. Perhaps that would explain..

..why boatloads of people fleeing the country represent only the remaining 25%.

Here is a thug worth $900m, championing the cause of a countryful of people living in abject poverty.

[Yupster]

129. So did Arnaldo Ochoa

The General in charge of Cuban troops in Angola came back to Cuba just a little too much of a hero for Fidel. When he met and defeated South African troops in Southern Angola, he became a great revolutionary hero. In fact he became a little bit too popular.

Despite Raul asking for leniency, he was shot by revolutionary firing squad in 1989. He was tape recorded criticizing Fidel for sending Cuban boys to die in far off wars.

His official crime that he was executed for was "drug trafficking."

[Akim]

8. "Estas Son Las Mañanitas" (Traditional Hispanic Birthday Song)

http://www.piano-bar.com/pages/mananita.htm

[Judi Lynn]

17. Wow! Thanks for linking the birthday song. So pretty. n/t

[wakeme2008]

9. Get a Clue MSM and Cuban Mafia the man is

80 at that age you just do not jump out of bed the day after major surgery and give a 5 hour speech... Shiiiit...

[Yupster]

130. I had an uncle who was over 80 and used

to like to give five hour speeches.

Luckily he was long retired and not dictator of a nation.

[Iceburg]

10. Excellent Essay on Fidel by A. Trudeau (son of Canada's former Prime Min.)

http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155420635589&call_pageid=970599119419

snip

Pierre Trudeau had a friendship with Fidel Castro that went beyond politics. It was a mutual admiration between two men who put their unmatched intellects at the service of their country. On Castro's 80th birthday, an essay by Alexandre Trudeau

Aug. 13, 2006. 01:23 AM
ALEXANDRE TRUDEAU

I grew up knowing that Fidel Castro had a special place among my family's friends. We had a picture of him at home: a great big man with a beard who wore military fatigues and held my baby brother Michel in his arms. When he met my little brother in 1976, he even gave him a nickname that would stick with him his whole life: "Micha-Miche."

A few years later, when Michel was around 8 years old, I remember him complaining to my mother that my older brother and I both had more friends than he did. My mother told him that, unlike us, he had the greatest friend of all: he had Fidel.

For many years, Cuba remained Michel's exclusive realm; whenever someone would accompany my father there, it would naturally be Michel. It wasn't until after both my father's and brother's deaths that I got a chance to visit Fidel and his country, Cuba

...
http://www.thestar.com/NASApp/cs/ContentServer?pagename=thestar/Layout/Article_Type1&c=Article&cid=1155420635589&call_pageid=970599119419


ps. In the hearts and minds of most Canadians, Fidel is a true hero and friend of Canadians.

[Akim]

12. Beautiful Article

Beautiful article by Trudeau's son. I wish, too, that Canada may some day have its own Fidel (unduplicable as he is). The United States already did. His name was Lincoln.

[Judi Lynn]

18. Stunning tribute. I hope it will be read widely.

This part has particular poignance:

Cuba under Castro is a remarkably literate and healthy country, but it is undeniably poor. Historians will note, however, that never in modern times has a small, peaceful country been more subjected to unfair and malicious treatment by a superpower than Cuba has by the United States.

From the very start, the United States never gave Castro's Cuba a choice. Either Castro had to submit himself and his people to America's will or he had to hold his ground against them.
(snip)

What a miserable pity. History will remember him well.

[Minstrel Boy]

19. Here's the picture:

[Judi Lynn]

20. Wow! Looks like his father is wearing a guayabera.

You have posted some outstanding photos of these two here. This one is really great.

It's cool seeing photos of him taken as the rest of the world saw him, rather than the crap which gets run in the U.S., chosen to show him giving speeches or looking angry (which Latin American leaders would have a right to be, considering what the hell has happened there!)

[Say_What]

40. Gabriel Garcia Marquez wrote one also... "The Fidel Castro that I know"

The Fidel Castro that I know

<clips>

His fondness for words. His power of seduction. He hunts for a problem wherever it is. The impelling force of inspiration is befits his style. The breadth of his tastes is very well reflected in his books. He gave up his cigars so as to have the moral authority to fight smoking. He likes to prepare recipes with a sort of scientific fervor. He keeps in excellent shape through several hours of daily exercise and frequent swimming. Invincible patience. Strict discipline. He's drawn toward the unexpected by the force of his imagination. Learning to work is as important as learning to rest.

Fatigued by talking, he rests by talking. He writes well and likes to do it. His greatest motivation in life is the emotion of risk. The rostrum of an improviser seems to be his perfect ecological element.

When he starts speaking, his voice is always hard to hear and his course is uncertain, but he takes advantage of anything to gain ground, little by little, until he takes a kind of swipe and takes possession of his audience. He's the inspiration: the irresistible and dazzling state of grace only denied by those who lack the glory to feel it. He's the quintessential anti-dogmatist.

He's been sufficiently talented to incorporate the ideas of José Martí, his bedtime author, to a Marxist revolution's bloodstream. The essence of his own thoughts lies perhaps in his certainty that working with the masses means first of all taking care of individuals.

That could explain his absolute confidence in face-to-face contact.


http://www.progresoweekly.com/index.php?progreso=Gabriel_Garcia_Marquez&otherweek=1155445200


Fidel Castro and Gabriel Garcia Marquez together.

[Say_What]

55. Excellent and many of the qualities Trudeau points out are also

pointed out by Gabriel Garcia Marquez posted in this thread.

From your article:

...He lives to learn and to put his knowledge in the service of the revolution. For Fidel, revolution is really a work of reason. In his view, revolution, when rigorously adopted, cannot fail to lead humanity towards ever greater justice, towards an ever more perfect social order.

Fidel is also the most curious man that I have ever met. He wants to know all there is to be known. He is famous for not sleeping, instead spending the night studying and learning.

He also knows what he doesn't know, and when he meets you he immediately seeks to identify what he might learn from you. Once he has ascertained an area of expertise that might be of interest, he begins with his questions. One after the other. He synthesizes information quickly and gets back to you with ever deeper and more complex questions, getting more and more excited as he illuminates, through his Socratic interrogation, new parcels of knowledge and understanding he might add to his own mental library.

His intellect is one of the most broad and complete that can be found. He is an expert on genetics, on automobile combustion engines, on stock markets. On everything.

[CanSocDem]

11. He looks great....

Thanks for posting Mika!!

[Akim]

14. In Photo, Fidel Is Holding Up the Wrong Newspaper

In one of the photographs just released, Fidel is shown holding up a copy of "Granma's" latest edition. This was a strategic mistake. He should have been shown holding a Miami Gusano newspaper with a headline announcing his death. Like Truman did when he held up the Chicago Tribune's early edition with the headline "Dewey Beats Truman."

[tanyev]

13. Looks pretty robust for a man on his deathbed.

:eyes:

[Rufus T. Firefly]

15. Good to know our government is on top of things..

First, the administration admitted it was surprised when he handed over power to have surgery - they didn't know anything about it in advance.

Then, this week a State Dept. spokesman said that Castro is doing very poorly and it's only a matter of time before elections, etc.

I'm convinced that, due to the law of averages, there has to be ONE thing these people get right before 2009. I'm on the lookout.

[Judi Lynn]

21. Paper Prints Castro's Birthday Message

Paper Prints Castro's Birthday Message
Official Newspaper Publishes 80th Birthday Message From Ailing Fidel Castro, Along With Photos
By ANITA SNOW

HAVANA Aug 13, 2006 (AP)— On his 80th birthday, Fidel Castro cautioned Cubans on Sunday that he faced a long recovery from surgery and advised them to prepare for "adverse news," but he urged them to stay optimistic. As the Communist Youth newspaper published the first photographs of the Cuban leader since illness forced him to step aside as president two weeks ago, Castro said his health had improved, but warned that risks remain.

"I feel very happy," said a statement attributed to Castro in the Juventud Rebelde newspaper. "For all those who care about my health, I promise to fight for it."
(snip)

In his statement, Castro said his stability has "considerably improved" but added: "To affirm that the recovery period will take a short time and that there is no risk would be absolutely incorrect."

"I ask you all to be optimistic, and at the same time to be ready to face any adverse news," it added.

"To the people of Cuba, infinite gratitude for your loving support. The country is marching on and will continue marching on perfectly well."
(snip/...)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2307403&page=1

[Billy Burnett]

25. "at the same time to be ready to face any adverse news"

"at the same time to be ready to face any adverse news"


Oh oh.

This is just what my dad said to me when they surgically removed his cancer and had to undergo chemo. The cancer eventually returned as the doctors warned and that's what killed him soon thereafter.

I hope not, but I fear that this might be the case for Cuba's revolutionary war hero.


Happy birthday to him. :party: May there be many more in good health.





200 million children in the world sleep in the streets - none are Cuban!

[Judi Lynn]

22. Castro makes 80th birthday appearance -- in living color

Castro makes 80th birthday appearance -- in living color
by Patrick Lescot
22 minutes ago

HAVANA (AFP) - Cuban leader Fidel Castro erased any doubt that he made it through major surgery, and marked his 80th birthday releasing post-operative photos and vowing to fight for his health.

Castro, the world's longest-serving head of government and the leader of the Americas' only communist country for almost 48 years, had not been seen since he underwent emergency surgery and on July 31 ceded power for the first time to his brother Raul Castro, 75, the defense chief.

Neither Castro had been seen publicly since, fueling some doubts and speculation about Fidel Castro's health abroad and in Cuba, where most people have never known another leader.

With a message Sunday reading "I feel very happy" in the Juventud Rebelde newspaper, the revolutionary icon appeared alert and in good spirits and did not appear to have lost much weight after the operation to halt gastrointestinal bleeding.
(snip/...)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/afp/20060813/en_afp/cubacastropolitics

[onehandle]

23. Please, please don't die before Bush leaves office.

Rove is salivating at this possibility. He will remake Bush's entire legacy of Failure to make it seem as if he was the catalyst of "Communist Cuba's Downfall".

I am no fan of Castro, but I hope he lives until January 20th, 2009.

If a Democratic Congress impeaches Bush and Cheney next year, he has my permission to kick.

[Az_lefty]

26. I'll second that...

:toast:

[earth mom]

27. And Third...

though it's because I like Castro and don't want * & Co to get their dirty hands on Cuba. :toast:

[1monster]

24. Love the Adidas jacket.

:7

[dolo amber]

43. That's just bizarre

:7

[Minstrel Boy]

56. Adidas is a German company,

and Germany, like virtually every country in the world, has normal relations with Cuba.

[lonestarnot]

85. I'm glad you cleared that up!

[Maven]

29. I don't wish anyone ill, but I'm not going to celebrate this man.

I won't celebrate him simply because my ideological enemies hate him.

Nor because he may even share some of my own points of view.

I don't support authoritarian leaders. Of any stripe. And I think the tone of this thread is a little bizarre on a Democratic website.

[Endangered Specie]

31. Unfortunately, the majority opinion here

is sympathetic to Castro (some downright praise him as a great man).

Don't let it get to you though, Id say tha majority of democrats don't care much for him. I dont like dictators, even if they are 'good' (and this one ain't).

[Akim]

33. Lieberman Is Castro's Biggest Foe in the Senate, Or Was

A lot of progessive Democrats support Castro.

Lieberman was Castro's biggest foe in the senate on the Democratic side. And you know what happened to him.

The Cuba card doesn't play outside Florida.

[Mika]

35. Actually, quite the opposite.

Without Castro as Head of Sate of Cuba Mr Lieberman would never have been able to solicit the Miami Cuban hard line exile community as he did to fund his campaigns.

The same goes for Ileana Ros Lehtinen and Lincoln Diaz Balart (just as it did for Dan Burton).

No Castro = no anti Castro platform (that yields much $$ for campaigns from Miami).

Fidel Castro is the best thing that happened to the aforementioned politicians.

[Akim]

47. Mika and Judi, I agree with both of you

I see your point.

My point is that now the Miami Gusanos have lost their most grovelling servant in the Democratic Party.

Their money, in the end, did nothing for Lieberman.

Cuban-Americans are "kingmakers" only in Florida. They are powerful precisely because they are concentrated in one area. But in the rest of the country, given their unsavory reputation for fanaticism and consistently going against the grain of the American public (as in the Elian case), the influence of Miami Gusanos is virtually nil. If anything, they are something for sane politicians to run away from.

[Mika]

53. Their money is what helped him get elected.

Mr Lieberman was running out of campaign dollars in his run against Weiker in 1988. He did some platform shopping and did a flip flop on his stance on the US sanctions/embargo on Cuba in his successful effort to raise cash from the hard line Miami exiles. (Like Lieberman, Weiker was against the sanctions and embargo - so Joementum switched sides and came to the CANF in Miami to solicit money with a git tough on Cuba platform.)

Without their money in this run he most likely wouldn't have been elected.


Dan Burton (R - Indiana, retired) did the same thing (flip flopped on his Cuba policy stance) and got large amounts of campaign $$ from the CANF. To cement this relationship we have the Helms-Burton law.

[Akim]

59. Gore & Lieberman Were Both Betrayed by Miami Gusanos

Gore and Lieberman were outrageously vying with each other to see which could pander the most to the Miami Gusanos. And, in the end, what did it get them? Absolutely nothing. Cuban-Americans again voted the plantation (i.e. they continued in thrall to the Republican Party). This should be a lesson for Democrats in the future who would align themselves to the anti-Castro crowd.

[Mika]

67. Its about the campaign money. Not the truth.

Anti Cuba political candidates are a mixed bag of Dems and repukes. Some go for the anti Castro money, some go for the pro trade anti sanctions agribiz money.


charts from opensecrets.org

[Akim]

70. Interesting Charts

So, in effect, the Cuban gusanos believed that they had the Republicans in their pockets already (so to speak), so they concentrated their giving on Democratic candidates whom they could co-op.

[Yupster]

133. Gusano?

Doesn't that mean worm?

What's the deal with insulting groups of people by calling them worms?

People leave behind their families and property, sometimes under dangerous conditions to escape a government they find oppressive and we insult them by calling them worms? Whether you like the refugees or the government, what's with the insults?

Amazing on a progressive website.

[Judi Lynn]

143. The term is used in Cuba by people who base their term on their

own opinion. It's valid to them or they wouldn't use it.

Many of the original wave of immigrants fled because they were connected to the vicious dictator Batista who fled, taking along with him a huge amount of the country's National Treasury.

[heliarc]

156. Not to mention

The Sugar growers, a band of pretty greedy capitalists for whom the poor in Cuba had a strong and particular animosity. Some of the sugar plantations were even owned by the US. People in the US (and on DU) have yet to realize that throughout the last century and today, huge tracts of land in Latin America were owned by US companies. It may be something that we come to know more intimately as Saudi Arabia gobbles up more of the US. When foreigners own your land, you have no choice but to live by foreigners rules. Unless you nationalize the resource... Like Venezuela did, or like Chile tried to do with their copper mines. Sugar was Cuba's biggest resource, and the nationalization was a matter of national pride and control. For many of the poor people this was a great victory, and I thank you Judi Lynn for your exceptional definition and defense of the term.

[Yupster]

181. People insult groups of people for all

kinds of reasons.

I'm sure the hutus call the tutsis all kinds of things and all different groups in America call all kinds of other groups all kinds of insults too. There's always a way to justify putting down another group.

The fact that a group insults another group doesn't make it justified for those insults to be repeated on a progressive message board like DU though.

I'd think we'd be a bit more enlightened than insulting groups of refugees whether we like them or not.

[Akim]

182. Jose Marti Was the First to Use "Gusano" to Denote a Traitor

José Martí used the term "gusano" in his "War Diary" to denote a traitor. He so refers to an informant who was ordered executed by firing squad after a court martial.

[Judi Lynn]

188. Thanks! Didn't know that! Makes it even funnier when you consider

the gusanos try to claim they feel close to his beliefs.

[Yupster]

204. I don't care who first used the term

You shouldn't dehumanize people, or groups of people by calling them worms. Should I have to say that on a Progressive website?

[Akim]

209. So You've Never Heard of José Martí?

Obviously, you are unacquainted with José Martí (1853-1895), Cuba's national hero, who is hailed throughout Latin America as a defender of human rights and self-determination. Martí also said that all men are divided into two groups — those who love and build, and those who hate and destroy. It seems to me that the LEAST you could call the latter is "gusanos" (worms). They are worms because they feed on the heart of their country.

[Yupster]

211. Yes I taught history for ten years

and it wouldn't surprise me to find out George Washington used dehumanizing names for groups of people he dealt with too.

I look at history and see dehumanizing opponents as a very bad step to take. Often in history when groups dehumanize their opposition, they then go a lot further.

It's something I try to stay away from.

[Akim]

222. Is it right to dehumanize foes whose behavior is inhuman? n/t

[Akim]

224. Yes. What Else Can you Do? n/t

[Judi Lynn]

37. You're damned right! n/t

[onehandle]

46. Castro is a murderous thug.

Murder and theft are not tools of Progressive Democrats.

America is a capitalist democracy.

I'm the first one to blame corporations for our country's problems.

But, fascist dictatorship is not the answer. That's what we have here now with Bush and Cheney.

[heliarc]

91. Just about as murderous as ...

George Washington was. The fact is that he liberated a country from the domination of a hegemon, namely, the United States and while the ironic thing is that he became dominated by a struggle with America that is largely ideological and economic in nature -stifling to be sure- he was able to stand up to the US hegemonic influence. That his position on AIDS, freedom of speech and quite a number of other problems has been quite troubling to left-thinking individuals like myself, does not change the fact that he liberated his country from the United States, and in doing so, liberated his country from an economy that at the time was governed by a few ultra-wealthy sugar growers and corrupted Mafia of drugs, prostitution and gambling interests. He turned his country's interests inward to focus on health-care and education and did so while he was under siege by both the interests of the US and I dare say the Soviets as well. His is a heroic story to be sure. Those here at DU who don't understand A) probably don't have any significant experience in Latin America (or are of a wealthier class of momios). Or B) have been brainwashed by a media machine dominated by the most yellow and alarmist journalists in US history... Miami Cuban media. The fact that Rick Sanchez (formerly Miami local news) has now gone national on Fox is telling in the extreme.

I hope that Cuba will become a democracy for the betterment of its people, but I also hope that Fidel is remembered for his real contributions to the Cuban identity and culture.

[onehandle]

104. Liberate America.

Bush accepted an obviously stolen election.

I don't get people who praise Castro and Chavez who aren't willing to hop the fences and do the same.

For the record, I think Florida anti-Castro Cubans are brainwashed and see the Castro reality as worse than it really is.

Doesn't change the fact that Castro has killed and continues to kill many of his countrymen.

Mao "liberated" China. It's not exactly a fun time over there either. Only the paradise climate of Cuba has kept it going this long.

The only benevolent dictator out there is me, but my friendly iron fist only rules our cats.

[Mika]

105. From ignorance..

.. about Cuba, for it is abound here on DU.

[heliarc]

116. And the US continues to use the Death Penalty

on the Mentally challenged and I daresay the innocent. Castro is better IMHO than the killer that Batista was.

If you don't understand, than you obviously don't know what it's like to be in Latin America dominated by the United States and foreign countries for hundreds of years. When the US came to Chile and used its money and intelligence assets to destabilize the country and support the massacre of 3000 people who supported the democracy in Chile while supporting the torture of 80,000 they weren't supporting democracy. So Castro is a hero in a very different way than Mao, and I resent the comparison. I don't think the shoe fits. Mao liberated China from an Emperor, and began a campaign against forms of music for example. To this day Cuba's Esgrem remains one of the best recording houses hands down in the world. Now, I'm the one who stated my own problems with Castro's Cuba. His misunderstanding of the AIDS epidemic was a costly mistake and a bigotted one. His mistreatment of journalists is a shame on the country to be sure. If you think I should be supporting the botched Bush election because I can see the positive side of the Cuban Revolution, you should have your head examined. Perhaps if you hate Cuba so much, you should also support all of the crimes the US committed in El Salvador, Guatemala, Texas (formerly Mexico) and Chile. Your logic doesn't pass muster. I for one believe that the American Revolution was a victory unparalleled except by the Cuban Revolution... and I feel very comfortable believing that at the same time that I criticize the founding fathers for owning slaves. You could do well to add just as much complexity and intelligence to your arguments.

[Yupster]

135. Batista's been gone for 47 years

Time to stop comparing things to then.

Berlusconi may be bad, but he's better than Nero is hardly an argument.

[heliarc]

150. I agree wholeheartedly...

And for 3 years after Batista, Fidel courted the Soviet Union AND the US to determine who would be his best friend. You should take a trip to Miami and argue with the Gusanos about how much better things were 47 years ago. They'll argue in a second that Batista was better and the argument has to start there with them too. Fidel has been under siege for 45 long years at least its true. The embargo should end and the US should treat other countries as equals, not as hegemonic satellites. Then perhaps Cuba can decide what it wants for itself and countries like the US can stop forcing policy down its throat. Fidel is a hero, and he should step down. Those are two separate points. I was arguing the former, although that nuance was lost on most here.

[Yupster]

200. I should go to Miami and argue with the worms?

Why would I go visit a group of people and call them worms?

Why would anyone call any group of people worms?

Because some dictatorial government calls its refugees worms, we're supposed to follow the dictator's lead? No thanks. I'll try not to diminish any group of people with dehumanizing insults.

[heliarc]

202. Miami Cubans dehumanized themselves...

By bombing art museums in Miami for showing Art from the Island. For attacking democratic party candidates with baseball bats and destroying their property and threatening their children. For shouting racial epithets at Nelson Mandela when he arrived at the airport. For calling my business up and making death threats for producing plays like Waiting for Godot. For beating up people at my school. For blaming the Haitian immigrants for seeking out a better life in Miami while their own countrymen and women were applauded for doing the same. For using their Foxlike media machine to distort the truth use their falsehoods to consolidate power. The Cuban American community has proved again and again that they deserve the title: Gusano. I use the term proudly as someone who grew up under the corrupted tyranny that was Miami Florida. I hope I never have to live there again.

[Yupster]

207. So call the Cuban refugees worms then

And Republicans are cockroaches and Israelis are leaches and you can dehumanize every group that doesn't see things your way.

[heliarc]

212. Not seeing things your way is a lot different

from threatening to kill you. I don't think I was talking about Republicans or Israelis in this thread. I don't see things quite the same way the Zionists do, but Israelis encompass a wider group than that including some Arab peoples. And I have never referred to them as anything else. Next time someone threatens your life for producing artworks let me know if you have less of a view of their humanity. When Karl Rove bugs his own offices, and flyers poor neighborhoods with incorrect voting dates, he is a weasel, and a cheat, and I get to use the language that way. Frankly, now that I think of it I hate to insult the worms and the weasels that way. You're right. The Miami Cubans bent on political power above all else are less worthy than that. Perhaps I should call them what they like to call each other... Come mierdas... The republicans have taken the Iraq war far enough that those who don't question it among the party deserve no animal title at all. Their actions are all too human. They are murderers plain and simple. Baby killers even. I will insult them just as much as the evidence will allow, thank you very much. No amount of your linguistic do-gooding constriction will stop me.

[Judi Lynn]

217. The DO have a strange preoccupation with matter most people

would NEVER consider touching, as in the case of terrorism used against the former Miami Herald publisher, David Lawrence, who had written articles they didn't like, and they smeared human feces all over the newspaper's vending machines throughout the city, as well as storming the Herald offices with death threats, bomb threats to the publisher, his staff, to the point he and his wife started having trained people start their cars for them every time they hoped to use them.

Also documented was the alien-to-America experience of seeing crowds of anti-Cuba "exiles" miling around buildings where Cuban singers and musicians were expected to play, hurling D-cell batteries, rocks, bottles, and baggies filled with human excrement at the Cuban-Americans trying to go in, as well as the artists arriving.

A lot of people I know would have no problem whatsoever using "de-humanizing" terms for scum like that.

[Akim]

183. Batista May Not Be As Dead As You Think

Is Batista really dead?

Or is he just a dormant bacillus ready to take root in any number of acolytes, even Batista's own grandson, who was appointed to the Florida Supreme Court by Jeb Bush?

[Judi Lynn]

189. Same gentleman who worked hard to get his client, mass murderer,

airline bomber Orlando Bosch that pardon from _{George H. W. Bush} after the acting Assistant Attorney General, Joe D. Whitley issued a decision to exclude him from this country, due to his excessive grubbiness and criminality!

Exclusion Proceeding for Orlando Bosch Avila
http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0054.html

July 8, 2002

The Bush Family's Bloody Pals
Florida a Sanctuary for Terrorists
by Jack McCarthy

Florida is not only a sanctuary for retirees and tourists. It is also a haven for terrorists, some retired some still active.

Now Florida doesn't harbor the kinds of terrorists who would interest our bumbling "Homeland Security" inspector Tom Ridge mind you.

These are the kinds of terrorists who would be welcomed at a backyard BBQ thrown those WASP Sopranos, the Bush family.

A few of them have recently been in the news.

First there's the notorious Orlando Bosch, the anti-Castro fanatic who most likely blew up a civilian Cuban commercial airliner in 1976, killing all 73 passengers aboard, including the entire Olympic fencing team.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/mccarthy0709.html



Raoul Cantero III
Grandson of Fulgencio Batista

[Akim]

184. God Protect Castro From His Friends...

God protect Castro from his friends; he can certainly take care of his own enemies.

It seems to me that you are conceding way too much to the enemy. What "costly mistakes" did Fidel commit in battling AIDS that would cause you to put him in the same category as Reagan? Cuba provided the best care possible to AIDs patients, including special diets and imported medicines. As for the journalists which you say Castro "mistreated," you obviously regard the paid foreign agents of a hostile government as belonging to the fourth estate and entitled to the privilege of subverting, if not betraying, their country.

[Judi Lynn]

185. That activity is forbidden in the States by our own laws!

Allocated money from the U.S. taxpayers goes to fund these "independent journalists" and "dissidents," etc. in the MILLIONS of dollars, disbursed by Congress, yet if another group engaged U.S. citizens in the same way, they'd be in BIG trouble here, legally. BIG trouble. It's simply illegal here.

But some right-wingers feel it's only right to support Cuban employees, calling them "dissidents" who would be fighting mad if Cuba paid similar people here to do the same things.

Damned odd, isn't it?

[heliarc]

214. Paid "dissidents"

Judi, again thank you for your insight. I'm not familiar with the evidence that shows the allegiances of the journalists that Castro Jailed. Is there a resource that I can look at. Been away from Miami politics too long (thankfully) and frankly believed a lot of the propaganda that they were journalists unjustly jailed. Any more information you or others could provide I'd appreciate greatly.

[Judi Lynn]

223. One big loud one is Marta Beatriz Roque, who has been a highly visible

character among the "dissidents" for years. She was a professsor in Havana for years.

Her secretary, who had been with her for years testified against her at the trial, bringing foward the records of disbursements Roque acquired over the years from American sources. She (the secretary) was revealed to work for the Cuban government.

Roque was released fairly soon after going to the slammer for health reasons. Here's her photo:



The second one with the man standing behind her shows U.S. Interests Section head, James Cason, who has been replaced recently. Roque spent a lot of time at the U.S. Interests Section. Her eyes have always had those dark rings under them, it's not an indication any one has been pounding her.

Here's an article concerning her in later days:

On December 15, 2005, Mr. Parmly summoned the “dissidents” to a meeting in his personal residence in Havana. He did not hesitate to congratulate his guests for their work in favor of the “democratic change”. “President Bush said that the United States will not impose their government style. Our goal is rather helping others find their own voice, win their own freedom and build their own path ”, he solemnly affirmed, ignoring the ruthless economic and political aggression against the small Caribbean island. Under the watchful eyes of the Ladies in White, Mr. Oswaldo Payá, Mr. Vladimiro Roca and Mrs. Marta Beatriz Roque, he said that “the Cuban government does not represent its people and has no interest in improving living conditions”. Clearly, Washington’s only concern is the well-being of the Cuban people as the fierceness of its measures show it because the economic sanctions aim at “re-establishing democracy” and not at starving people into surrendering <9>.

In a telephone conversation secretly recorded, Mrs. Marta Beatriz Roque, president of the Assembly for the Promotion of Civil Society, revealed how the trade with the “dissidence” works. In reference to certain people who had refused to participate in the “Congress of the Dissidence”, that she had organized in May 2005 with the public support of the United States said that “nobody is leaving from Pinar del Río to Miami. The Americans said they would not give them a single visa ”. Thus, to recruit new collaborators, the US Interest Section, in addition to a significant financial incentive, promises a visa for the docile and the obedient. <10>.

The telephone conversation recorded by the Cuban intelligence services also showed the true face of Mrs. Beatriz Roque. “IF that costs the Cuban government a Yankee invasion, I don’t give a damn”, she said to her interlocutor. With these words, it is easy to understand why Mrs. Beatriz Roque does not cause waves of enthusiasm among the Cuban people <11>.

The international media, which do not ignore these facts and the tricks used by the United States, align in a disciplined way with Washington’s point of view. Thus, they pretend to be blinded in front of the hostile reaction of the people to the demonstrations of “dissident” groups, carefully organized by the US Interest Section, and denounce the popular rejection of the “peaceful militants of the opposition”. Obviously, they do not say that it is all part of a strategy to destabilize the country.

Perhaps, Mrs. Beatriz Roque was hoping to receive bunches of roses after her comments were broadcast by Cuban television. As to Mr. Parmly, he described the Cubans who support their government as the “new version of the Brown Shirts or the Ku Klux Klan <12>”.
(snip/...)

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=9641

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

I would reccommend you jump right in there and start doing your research, just as the rest of us must, in order to have any idea whatsoever of what's going on. It's simply something you must do yourself, like homework, in order to find out.

Getting little bits from others will allow you the excuse to claim they had "cherry picked" the information. When you do it yourself, you definitely know what you've got, and where it came from.

[MikeyJones]

137. Castro has contributed nothing to Cuba's culture except more people.......

hopping in boats and braving death to escape from his pseudo-worker's paradise where he steals from his people and finances new mansions for himself and for his cronies on the backs of the working class of Cuba. The man's a murderer and an exploitative monster.

[Judi Lynn]

147. They hop on boats and brave death, huh?

What about the HUNDREDS of people who "brave death" annually to the point they DIE trying to get from Mexico to the US, along the border from California to Texas?

What about the Haitians and Dominicans who die each year trying to reach the U.S. crowded onto old boats, Haitians making the trip from 700 to 900 MILES away, rather than the 90 miles from Cuba?

From whom are all these people fleeing?

All of these would be immigrants do NOT have the following dangled in front of their eyes to lure them here as poltical trophies: instant legal status, instant green card, work visa, food stamps, social security, HOUSING paid for by the U.S. taxpayers, medical treatment, financial assistance for education, etc., etc., etc.

If those benefits were given to any other immigrant group we would be OVERWHELMED with people from that country.

[heliarc]

153. You will note...

That people all across the carribean hop in boats and make their way to Miami or other US shores... To be concise. There have been years where Cuba's literacy rate and infant mortality were better than the US. Those rates were far far better than in any other comparable economy. The contribution Castro has made to Cuba has to be measured while keeping in mind the great musical legacy of the Esgrem recording house, or the Ballet schools and Gymnasiums. Your generalisation is duly noted. I will agree that on certain issues Castro is a despot, and has unjustly killed many, but your blanket statement is straight up wrong.

[Akim]

187. Fidel Is Not a "Despot," And He Hasn't "Unjustly Killed" Anyone.

If Fidel Castro were really "a despot, and has unjustly killed many," as you claim, then the Esgrem Recording House, ballet schools and sports facilities would say nothing in his favor, and neither would any achievements in health and education.

But Castro, of course, is not a despot, and he hasn't unjustly killed anyone.

You are cordially invited to submit the name(s) of anyone who has been killed extra-judicially in Cuba since Fidel came to power on Jan. 1, 1959.

I mean, specifically, the names of death squad victims.

It's easy to tag people with labels such as "despot." But where is the evidence?

[heliarc]

201. Interesting...

Even I was starting to fall for the goofy stuff people are saying here. I wasn't able to find one extra judicial execution. Some claims of disappearances which are grave to be sure... I am chilean so I know about disappearances, but a very right wing entry at wikipedia gives little to no credible reports that prove them. I will wait for others to provide more evidence. I thank you all for the spirited debate.

[Yupster]

203. I'll submit the name of General Arnaldo Ochoa Sanchez

as someone who Castro had unjustly killed.

Here's a link to his story.

http://www.cubapolidata.com/cafr/cafr_ochoa_affair.html

During the Revolution he led the Central front against Batista. He fought against the Bay of Pigs invasion.

He led the Cuban Army to great victories in Angola, even against the South Africans. He also led the Cuban Army to victories in Ethiopia against Somalia. In 1989, he was returning home to Cuba a revolutionary hero who had served Castro and the Cuban army for 30 years.

Very popular and well known at home, he was a career army guy who was sent all different places and lived a soldier's austere life.He was considered the most respected officer in the Cuban armed forces as he prepared to take charge of the "Western Army" which controlled Havana. In short he was becoming a threat.

He was arrested in June 1989 for "immorality," and corruption to which drug trafficking was later added. Arrested in June he was executed by firing squad in July.

Go ahead and defend the execution of General Ochoa.

[Akim]

210. Ochoa Was a Traitor And Deserved What He Got

I have no need to defend the traitor Ochoa. Nor, for that matter, did Ochoa feel any need to defend himself, either. At his trial, he acknowledged betraying the Revolution and begged Fidel to forgive him. Fidel's known loyalty to old comrades might have prevailed against his better sense if the entire Cuban military hierarchy had not voted for conviction at Ochoa's court martial.

The accusations of drug dealing and emerald and diamond smuggling were well documented at his trial. But I, too, doubt that this was the real reason for his execution. It is obvious that he had been plotting the overthrew of the Revolution. But, of course, that would make him your hero.

[Yupster]

213. I think you see my point

No one knows what Ochoa was murdered for.

Most experts are pretty sure it had nothing to do with drugs or corruption. But was he plotting a coup? Was he too popular within the military? He was tape recorded criticizing the overseas commitments of the army. Was that the reason?

No one knows.

All we know was that he went from hero of the revolution to executed by firing squad in one month.

Is anyone on DU going to defend that process?

The whole thing looked like a Stalin show trial to me.

[Judi Lynn]

216. Here's a thoughtful article on this situation for DU'ers who haven't heard

anything about it. I've seen Miami hot-headed, raging gusanos raving for years about General Ochoa on message boards. They really love to try to work themselves up about it.

CUBA AFTER OCHOA
OR "THEY SHOOT DRUG TRAFFICKERS, DON'T THEY?"
By Karen Lee Wald (originally published 1990)
===================================
(A few words updating this essay, May 10, 2003.)

The current situation made me think about the Ochoa case: although it wouldn't seem so at first glance, there are many similarities. First, Cubans are once again torn between their aversion to having to use the seldom-used death penalty and their belief that if they don't, many more lives will be lost. In the case of Ochoa, they later found that the CIA had been monitoring, if not provoking, those contacts with drug-runners and was just waiting for the right moment to use that as an excuse to attack Cuba. Similarly, the US has been stepping up its provocations of Cuba since Bush came into office in the hope that Cuba or Cubans would respond in some way that would justify an intervention at this time.

http://www.walterlippmann.com/Cuba-after-ochoa.html

[Yupster]

226. At least you have to admire the Cuban

judicial system's efficiency.

They arrested the austere-living revolutionary hero of almost 40 years who fought with the Castros at the highest levels and had him tried, convicted and executed in one month.

If we could be that efficient here. Usually it takes our high profile defendants months to even get their defense teams together.

[Mika]

191. Did you know that Cuba has the lowest AIDS rate in the W Hemisphere?

Primarily due to their safe sex public education efforts that have been praised by many AIDS organizations.

http://www.google.com/u/who?q=HIV%2FAIDS+IN+CUBA&sa=Go&sitesearch=who.int&domains=who.int


Approaches to the Management of HIV/AIDS in Cuba
http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/cuba/en/


World Health Organization
Geneva
2004
PERSPECTIVES AND PRACTICE IN ANTIRETROVIRAL TREATMENT
APPROACHES TO THE MANAGEMENT OF HIV/AIDS IN CUBA
http://64.233.161.104/u/who?q=cache:cLLj_uBn5WsJ:www.who.int/entity/hiv/amds/case1.pdf+APPROACHES+TO+THE+MANAGEMENT+OF+HIV/AIDS+IN+CUBA&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=1&ie=UTF-8

___


Apparently, to some here, reducing AIDS infection rates to the lowest in the Western Hemisphere is a bad thing that the Cuban government partakes in.

[heliarc]

199. That might have something to do with the....

fact that he released prisoners who were HIV positive on the express condition that they join a boatlift to the states. I would love to be proven wrong on this point, but this was the subject of many corroborated newsreports when it happened in the early nineties. If memory serves. Please prove me wrong. I believe many laudable lefties have their weaknesses. Mandela's weak point is AIDS as well and now he is paying penitence for it. I have heard much of Homophobia on the island, and I'd love to hear more information on the issue. Fidel is one of my heroes for many reasons, but I am able to recognize faults in my heroes as well.

[Mika]

206. Why not just check the links I provided, instead of your pure conjecture..

.. & fantasy.

--

I put links in my post for a reason.

Cuba has the lowest AIDS rates the hemisphere because it has the lowest infection/transmission rate. That is due to their much lauded health & sex education combined with plentiful access to free/low cost condoms.

Cuba also has an advanced antiretroviral program for all who are infected that has resulted in a marked decrease in transmission as well as fatality rates.

There's a PDF file to download at this link http://www.who.int/hiv/pub/prev_care/cuba/en/ for you to review.

There's shitloads of more links here..
http://www.google.com/u/who?q=HIV%2FAIDS+IN+CUBA&sa=Go&sitesearch=who.int&domains=who.int

--


If, as you claim, there are many corroborated news reports of when it (boatlifts expressly for aids victims?) happened in the early nineties, please provide links to some of them.

[heliarc]

219. Funny

how a pro-Fidel guy like myself, long away from Miami may still be influenced by the propaganda that the news machine always was in Miami. After searching with what time allows this morning, I was able to find the report that I had touted with some impetuousness.

http://www.aegis.com/news/ct/1988/CT880110.html

It is a 1988 article in the Chicago Tribune that links many Mariel boatlift refugees with a key moment in the history of the spread of AIDS in the US. The World Health Organization is cited in the article. Many of the refugees claim to have been jailed because of their illness.

If I were to find reports like this now, I might be very inclined to believe they were manufactured to injure the reputation of the island's efforts to stem the spread of AIDS as you pointed out in your links, but conjecture it was not. You will kindly lower your tone with me. I am glad at least that my "conjecture" provided a platform for you to provide good evidence, and I am again heartened by the island's efforts to prevent the spread of the disease. There are at least reports that at the beginning of the disease's history, the Cuban Government like many other governments around the world was discriminatory displayed homophobia.

Thanks again for the spirited discussion.

[Mika]

220. What a ridiculously biased article

The article says that the Marielitos were "sent here".

Wrong!

They were picked up by Cuban-Americans who went from Miami to Mariel harbor to pick them up and brought them to Miami in a mass illegal smuggling operation.


The article also mentions that no one had heard of AIDS in the spring of 1980. How then could the Cuban government select HIV+ prisoners?

I could go on, but I won't. Most readers will be able to see that the 1988 article you linked to is grasping at straws to blame Cuba for contributing to the US AIDS epidemic.


Still, Cuba has the lowest HIV transmission rate and infection numbers (per capita) in the Western hemisphere, and has one of the most compassionate and complete range of treatment methodologies in the world.


--


Sorry about my "tone". I do get somewhat agitated when DUers post unsubstantiated smears and untruths about Cuba - but you are correct in that it gives some of us a chance to debunk the lies and smears with actual documentation.

You have asked several questions in this thread that have already been answered in prior posts. Why not go thru this thread and check the links provided?

:hi:

[heliarc]

221. You are right

That it is a biased article, and I'm sure it was used to promote all sorts of bigotted statements in the Miami Press, but I would not entirely discount the interviews of the Marielitos who were HIV positive. It is very possible that there was all manner of discrimination on the island though this article does not expand nor would it then follow to say that the discrimination was institutional in any way. I'll check as many links as I have time for. Thank you for taking the time to post more information!

[Placebo]

49. It sick ain't it?

I don't get DU's overwhelming love and admiration for Castro.

[Endangered Specie]

63. 'Enemy of my enemy is my friend' mentality I think is why.

If Cuba is such a great place to live, how come people (and Americans) arent escaping in boats to get in? (seems to be much the other way around). Similar thing I say to those who think East Germany was such a wonderful place to live.

[Placebo]

69. Castro's Cuba, East Germany...

total paradises compared to Bush's America according to DU and a lot of liberals.

I hate Bush as much as the next American, but not so much as to extol the virtues of a communist dictator.

[Mika]

34. Maybe these types of thread should be banned?

Especially because you think that the "tone" is bizarre.

Many people here might admire Mr Castro because they've become familiar with his life, with his writings, and with his steadfast dedication to Cuba's sovereignty. Just a guess, mind you, but not everyone here is unaware of the history of Cuba's revolution and one of its remarkable revolutionary heroes. Plus, the people of Cuba (with whom I and others here feel a great solidarity with), by and large, hold Mr Castro in high esteem.

[Judi Lynn]

36. A little education goes a long way.

Many of us were clueless about everything South of Florida ourselves, until we made it our job to start finding out.

There's no excuse for ignorance.

It's a big mistake when someone insists he speaks for the entire American public. It's a sign of insecurity. Obviously, we're not all that stupid.

If the poster had spent any time reading or speaking with his Congress critters he'd know there has been a movement to establish relations with Cuba just as it is since the 1990's, with both Republican and Democratic Congressmen invovled.
Also, trip after trip to Cuba by retired high-ranking U.S. military officials, who have spoken with Cuban military, and even looked through their military installation.

That was during Clinton's administration.

Jimmy Carter removed the travel ban, and Ronald Reagan put it back. This has been a political football forever, from the 1800's: the obsession with controlling that island by the ugliest among us.

Some people need to wake the hell up.

Thanks for your comments, as always, Mika. A needed dose of reality.

[Maven]

44. Self-delete

Not even worth it.

[Maven]

39. You're right. I find it bizarre that people who consider themselves

Democrats, who rail against our own incipient tyranny at home, would revere someone who has maintained a de facto dictatorship for decades, who has assassinated countless (read: thousands) of political dissidents, and, among his various projects in the pursuit of one-party perfection, incarcerated homosexuals and other "social deviants" in prison camps. But never mind--the "revolution" continues, right?

I enjoy reading Mao Tse-Tung, too (dialectical materialism and all that), but I don't support communist dictatorships. In China, Cuba, or elsewhere.

Just a guess, mind you, but not everyone here is fully acclimatised to living in a true one-party state. (But we're getting there!)

Or perhaps you should attack anyone with the temerity to interrupt your idol worship with a dose of skepticism. If they don't see things your way, they must be uninformed, right?

[Mika]

41. What attack?

What idol worship?

For that matter.. what dose of reality?


As I previously stated, not everyone is unaware of Cuba's history.



On edit..

I see that you've edited your post to change your statement "Or perhaps you should attack anyone with the temerity to interrupt your idol worship with a dose of reality."

Big difference between skepticism and reality.

I was a skeptic about Cuba and Mr Castro also, until I spent some time there. Now I know that most Cubans hold Mr Castro in high esteem.

[Maven]

45. And I'm one of them.

That was my point, which you completely missed.

[Maven]

54. "Most Cubans hold Castro in high esteem"

Of course, they don't have much choice, do they?
Or much basis for comparison.
Or, for that matter, much exposure to opposing viewpoints.

But I suppose if most Cubans hold him in high esteem, what's a little murder and imprisonment among friends?

And since you've completely failed to address my other points, I have to assume that you're an "end justifies the means" sort of person.

Sorry, that's not why I'm a liberal or a Democrat.

[Mika]

57. You would know.

After all, you're the "expert" on Cuba.

According to you, Cubans are like mushrooms. In the dark.

Nothing could be further from the truth about the good people of Cuba. Just because Cuba doesn't have normalized relations with the US (which is US policy, not Cuba's) doesn't mean that Cubans are not informed nor connected to what is going on in the rest of the world.

Your "points" are little more than anti Cuba heresay and hyperbole, and since you've posted nothing more than that one would have to assume that you're an "accusations equals the truth" type of person.

I actually do reasearch, seek the truth, and speak of what I know (in this case, its about Cuba and Cubans in Cuba) - that's why I'm a liberal and a Democrat.

[Maven]

60. Sure, because of the two of us

I'm the one being an intellectual chauvanist.

I never implied that Cubans on the island are, in fact, in the dark. But don't try to convince me that they're free to consider and discuss other forms of government. Or, for example, that Castro himself doesn't benefit from anti-Castro sentiment (the rally-around-the-leader effect). There are, in fact, many Cubans who support liberal democracy. The problem is, they'd probably be marginalized quickly after Castro is gone. But maybe they're just victims of "anti-Cuba heresay and hyperbole."

And my points, by the way, are supported by well documented abuses such as the UMAPs. Clearly, in your view, detainment camps can be overlooked or reasoned away if the "right" leader is doing the detainment. I suppose that Human Rights Watch also has an "anti-Cuba" agenda.

[Mika]

61. Clearly? In my view?

Ms Cleo? Is that you?

Silly me. It is you who knows my positions on these matters, not me. :+


--

When it come to the 75 "dissidents", yes HRW does have an anti Cuba agenda. HRW refuses to acknowledge that the 75 were on the payroll of the declared enemy of Cuba (the US government), this activity (aiding and abetting the enemy of the state as undeclared agents of said enemy) is just as illegal in the US as it is in Cuba.


http://www.greenleft.org.au/back/2003/535/535p21.htm

At an April 8 press conference in Havana, Cuban foreign minister Felipe Perez Roque presented vouchers, bank receipts and photos demonstrating the truth behind the charges against 75 dissidents found guilty of conspiring with the US Interests Section (USIS) at the Swiss embassy in Havana.

Perez exhibited vouchers of monies received last year from the US by several illegal organisations in Cuba. The Centre for a Free Cuba received US$2.3 million. The Task Force for the Internal Dissidency received US$250,000. The Program for Transition in Cuba, headed by Frank Calzon, received $325,000. Support Group for the Dissidency received $1.2 million from the International Republican Institute. Cubanet, an internet magazine, received $98,000 and the American Centre for International Labor Solidarity, whose mission is to persuade foreign investors not to invest in Cuba, received $168,575.

At a series of trials of Cuban dissidents in early April it was revealed that James Cason, the current head of the USIS, had conspired with them to provide information that Washington can use in its economic, political and propaganda war against the Cuban workers' and peasants' government.

On March 18, Cuban police began charging those involved in the US-funded dissident network. They were charged under a number of different articles in the Cuban penal code and subsequently sentenced to between 15 and 27 years imprisonment.

Article 5.1 of the penal code, under which many of those arrested were charged, states that any Cuban citizen “who seeks out information to be used in the application of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the economic war against our people aimed at disrupting internal order, destabilising the country and liquidating the socialist state and the independence of Cuba, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

Article 6.1 states that any Cuban citizen “who gathers, reproduces, disseminates subversive material from the government of the United States of America, its agencies, representative bodies, officials or any foreign entity to support the objectives of the Helms-Burton Act, the blockade and the war, shall incur a sanction of deprivation of liberty”.

Others were charged under Article 91 of the penal code that states that any Cuban citizen “who executes an action in the interest of a foreign state with the purpose of harming the independence of the Cuban State or the integrity of its territory shall incur a sentence of 10 to 20 years of deprivation of liberty or death.”

The arrests of the dissidents came after an increase in tension between Washington and Havana over intensified activity by those the US government calls “independent journalists” and “human rights organisations” within Cuba.

Since September, Cason has played the most interventionist role of any previous US diplomat in Cuba. On March 10, the Cuban government delivered a note to Cason asking him to cease his provocative statements and his role organising meetings of Cuban dissidents. Two days later, Cason organised another meeting of dissidents at his residence.

The USIS has also been involved in providing up to $60,000 to the magazine El Dissidente which is sent to the USIS in diplomatic pouches and then distributed by the USIS to Cuban dissidents. Another political magazine, la Revista de Cuba, is actually printed at the USIS.

The case against the arrested dissidents was based on evidence given by a number of Cuban security service agents who had infiltrated the dissident network organised by Cason, including Odilia Collazo Valdes, who headed the Pro-Democracy Party of Cuba, and had been a Cuban security services agent since 1961. These were the key witnesses who provided evidence at the trials about the subversive role of the United States Agency for International Development (USAID).

The USAID web site introduces its Cuba section with the statement: “The overarching goal of US policy toward Cuba is to promote a peaceful transition to democracy on the island. To that end, policy is proceeding on a multi-faceted track: pressure on the regime for change through comprehensive economic sanctions; outreach to the Cuban people; the promotion and protection of human rights; multilateral efforts to press for democracy; and migration accords to promote safe, orderly and legal migration.”

In 1996, USAID awarded the first grant aimed at “promoting democratic transition” in Cuba. The grant was awarded as a result of the Cuban Democracy Act of 1992 which authorises the US government to provide assistance “through appropriate non-governmental organizations, for the support of individuals and organizations to promote nonviolent democratic change in Cuba”.

The Cuban Liberty and Solidarity Act of 1996 further elaborates the types of assistance and support the US president is authorised to provide for individuals and independent non-governmental organisations to support “democracy-building” efforts in Cuba.

At the April 9 press conference, Perez said: “The Helms-Burton Act has paragraph 109 which directs the government to distribute money for subversion in Cuba through USAID and it has paragraph 115 which favours giving the money through secret channels, the special services' channels. USAID itself says that the amount they give is the smallest part and, according to Franco, it has been $22 million since 1997.”

Perez noted some of the funds that had been provided: “To help create independent NGOs in Cuba $1,602,000; to give a voice to independent journalists $2,027,000; to plan the transition in Cuba $2,132,000; to assess the program, how it is working $335,000.”

Cuba has internal/domestic (non foreign funded) political opposition parties. The leadership of these various parties decry the US's financial payments to Cuban unregistered agents of the US posing as "dissidents" or opposition parties, because it taints the legitimate work of the real domestic political parties and movements.

It takes a little savy and investigation to understand this.

Much easier to slap up a quick link from HRW or AI (both orgs recieve money from the US CIA front.. the NED).

[Maven]

62. Seems like a reliable source ya got there.

Do you also trust White House press releases about what's going on at Gitmo?

My mistake, Cuba is overrun by opposition parties! Who knew? Blind human rights lawyers are really covert CIA agents!

I think this conversation is over.

[Mika]

64. Bye bye

"My mistake, Cuba is overrun by opposition parties!"

I never said "overrun". I said that they exist, and they do function. Like I've said - hyperbole on your part.


"Who knew?"

Obviously, not you.



Sorry to see such an "expert" (HRW links and all) on Cuba depart.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

83. Since you ignored it.

Let's look at some quotes from HRW's comments on Cuba:

Let's start by talking about the "equality" enjoyed by all Cubans.

Cuban nationals are routinely barred from enjoying amenities open to foreigners. In a phenomenon popularly known as "tourist apartheid," the best hotels, resorts, beaches, and restaurants are off limits to most Cubans, as are certain government health institutions.41

Now let's talk about the so called "freedoms enjoyed by all Cubans.

The Cuban constitution guarantees "the full freedom and dignity of men, the enjoyment of their rights...."28 However, multiple constitutional provisions undermine these guarantees. The constitution nullifies freedoms when they are contrary to "the goals of the socialist State," "socialist legality," or the "people's decision to build socialism and communism."29 The breadth of these terms allows for arbitrary, politicized denials of fundamental rights. The constitution has been used to undermine international human rights treaties ratified by Cuba by providing that any treaty, pact, or concession that disregards or diminishes Cuba's "territorial sovereignty" is illegal and void.30 In international fora for the protection of human rights, Cuba often invokes sovereignty as a justification for non-compliance and non-cooperation.

How about opposing political viewpoints?

Beyond the conditionality of rights created by the provisions detailed above, several constitutional articles restrict the very rights they claim to ensure. The freedoms of speech and press, for example, exist "in keeping with the goals of the socialist society."

What about worker's unions?

Cuba continues to discriminate politically in the provision of economic rights, most notably in the arena of labor rights, by banning all independent unions.39

But you can read it all for yourself here : http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-03.htm#P576_78223

I'm sure you'll link right to it. Becuase you are interested in nothing more than getting the truth out about Cuba and Castro.

[struggle4progress]

71. Perhaps if you were to probe attitudes carefully, you would find ..

.. that many are more nuanced than you think.

But discussions here are conducted in essentially the same cultural environment that exists in the larger American setting: our country is generally too impatient to listen to thorough analysis, and everything devolves towards epigrams or soundbites, simply because many people disregard anything longer than about a paragraph.

A careful discussion, of how US policy toward Cuba should proceed, would necessarily include an examination of what our real options are (including the use of a certain group of thugs such as Posada Carriles), of the directions in which existing corporate forces in American society (including our extensive armaments industry) will tend to drive any announced policy, of the probable numbers of victims under a particular option, and of various related issues. In America, however, hardly anyone would read or listen to such a long discussion.

If it is realistic to think that the United States often serves as a force which does good to some people and evil to others, the history of US policy in the Americas may provide a useful indication of who would benefit and who suffer from a proposed course of action. American hostility against the elected Allende produced the murderous Pinochet, for example; one could argue the merits of either Allende or Pinochet as a ruler, but in the final analysis it seems to me that my country did Chile a grave wrong by making that decision "on their behalf."

Any discussion of Cuba and Castro ought to be grounded in a specific and historical context, with some eye towards the political meaning that will attach to any particular assertion.

If, for example, you want to denounce Castro as an authoritarian ruler, this in itself does not offend me -- especially if you attach specific documented facts to your discussion -- since I have no view of Castro-as-saint. But my natural response should be to do some comparisons, in an attempt to judge how persuasive I find your facts in relation to whatever plan of action you propose. If, for example, you are concerned about unjust imprisonment in Cuba (which may be a reasonable concern), I should inquire as well into unjust imprisonment in the United States -- including such issues as unconstitutional denial of habeas corpus; such an inquiry will not affect the response of the dedicated human rights activist to conditions in either country, but it may affect my view as an American citizen of where I want political energies directed. Similarly, if you are concerned about treatment of Cuban prisoners (which again may be a reasonable concern), I am strongly inclined to notice several hundrd pages of declassified memos from the Bush regime which attempt to construct a legal theory to justify torture; again, this comparison should not affect the response of the dedicated human rights activist but it can affect my ideas as an American about proper direction of my political energies.

In the tradition of FDR, I am also inclined to regard certain basic needs issues in a human rights context. Perhaps you would like to compare Cuba's hurrican response to the Bush regime's performance to the Gulf Coast catastrophe?

It is a rightwing soundbite to characterize this sort of analysis as "defending Castro." But, of course, I am not "defending Castro" at all: I am simply attempting to form a realistic picture that can appropriately inform my further political moves ...

[Maven]

74. No comparison to the U.S. was intended or implied.

You seem to think that my response was predicated upon a feeling of American superiority. It wasn't, especially in light of our present situation.

But to criticize problems such as authoritarianism, unjust imprisonment, torture, stifling of political dissent, etc. domestically and overlook them in a neighbor simply to appear "enlightened" is hypocrisy. I won't celebrate a man who has punished political dissent and detained "social undesirables" to maintain an authoritarian regime, whether he's American or Cuban or any other nationality. That was the only point of my post, and I don't think it requires much nuance to see my point, as others on this thread have observed.

[Mika]

81. Not much nuance indeed

Your posts claim things that just are not true.
Such as:

Of course, they don't have much choice, do they?
Or much basis for comparison.
Or, for that matter, much exposure to opposing viewpoints.

When you are informed that here are choices and that Cubans do have exposure to opposing viewpoints you respond with insults ("I have to assume that you're an "end justifies the means" sort of person") and hyperbole ("My mistake, Cuba is overrun by opposition parties! Who knew?").


You're right. You're the Cuba "expert".

Castro = Bad
Cubans = Mushrooms
HRW = Blind human rights lawyers (not supported by the NED)

Indeed, your "points" don't involve much nuance.


---


I know that you have said that our conversation is over and I respect that, but, perhaps you could inform other DUers reading your expert opinions regarding Cuba on this thread as to just how many times you have actually been to Cuba, and how long you have been immersed in Cuba's history and US/Cuba relations.

[Maven]

88. And perhaps you might inform readers that much of your information

seems to come from Cuban press releases or other sources sympathetic to that government.

Or why you sidestep any opportunity to address the many documented human rights abuses in that country.

Or why you find it unthinkable that someone else might not love and cherish a dictator, benevolent or otherwise.

Or why you insist that free and uncensored political discourse is a reality in Cuba when that country's own laws prescribe otherwise.

Or why you conflate different viewpoints to support an oversimplified binary of the enlightened versus the ignorant. (Example: disliking Castro = disfavoring Cuban sovereignty and normalized relations = U.S. party line).

You're right, I don't live in Cuba. Neither do you, or most of the people on this thread, I suspect. And having done so myself, I can assure you that living in another country for a short time does not entitle anyone to speak with the cultural legitimacy of a native. Yet you insist on mischaracterizing those who disagree with you as ignorant or misinformed, and you don't address any facts that contradict your rosy view (i.e., "Castro's government is flawed, but..."). Would you also hold illegitimate the views of actual Cubans who oppose Castro? Or how about Jimmy Carter, who urged liberalization of Cuba's laws when he appeared there not too long ago? I find your objection on the basis of "nuance" to be ironic and misplaced to say the least.

Apparently your only defense is to put the word "expert" in quotation marks.

[struggle4progress]

107. Perhaps my post was too long and contained too few soundbites,

since your "response" seems to argue with things I never said.

The moral failing usually called hypocrisy is, of course, rather opposite to what you claim it is: it is not the failure to criticism others for sharing our own failures but rather the criticism of others for the crimes of which we ourselves are guilty.

The political point I am trying to make, however, is somewhat different: the point of political discourse is to motivate political action; and since time and energy and resources are limited, choices must be made about the targets against which one can effectively organize. In the normal course of events, domestic matters offer a more natural target of action than foreign matters, although there may well be a moral imperative to intervene to stop certain crimes.

In the current environment, the domestic forces urging "authoritarianism, unjust imprisonment, torture, stifling of political dissent" in the US seem to me urgent. And whatever its failings, Cuba seems a rather low priority
compared to the emergencies in Sudan and Lebanon or (in this hemisphere) Colombia.

[Maven]

108. I apologize if I misinterpreted your meaning.

It seemed to me that by expressing, as you did, the parallels between Castro's Cuba and our own sorry state at present you implied some equivalency. In other words, that you assumed some notion of American supremacy underpinned the views I originally expressed. I get your meaning now, and I agree. Cuba is a rather low priority at present. If you'll take the time to read my original post, you'll see that it was a mere observation that erupted into a flamewar.

And if you dispute my use of the word "hypocrisy," maybe the phrase "moral consistency" suits you better.

[BuddhaGirl]

86. My feelings exactly

I don't get all the Castro-worshipping on these boards.

The man is a dictator who has jailed dissidents. What's to celebrate about that???

[Maven]

89. I have no idea why.

Apparently to many these abuses may be overlooked in light of the greater good.

[Yupster]

140. It does tell you something about the nature

of man though.

I think most people would support a dictator if the dictator was on their side generally.

So much of life depends on whose ox is being gored at any particular time.

Things that are criticized horribly when the other side does it are accepted meekly when your side does it. I think that's true of almost everyone, even progressives who should know better.

[Codeine]

101. There's a wierd authoritarian streak running through this place.

You see it in the Castro/Che threads and the Chavez threads as well. For whatever reason some progressives are desperate for heroes, but don't really seem to understand that leaders, especially leaders willing to take power by force of arms, are very rarely suitable heroes. I don't trust the folks in power anywhere, I'm not sure why Castro is supposed to be different.

"Heroes betray us. By having them, in real life, we betray ourselves." - Michael Moorcock

[GirlinContempt]

174. Well, you'll find people defending Chavez

probably because he isn't a murderous dictator. I don't see how he gets lumped in there, that's just ludicrous.

[Codeine]

186. Of course he isn't.

I wasn't saying they're all murderous thugs, just power-hungry people willing to take that power by force of arms. I don't trust that sort of leader.

[GirlinContempt]

192. Chavez has taken power by force of arms?

Are you referring to the failed coup in the 90s for which he landed in jail, and then the administration he tried to oust was arrested and tried? And he was pardoned? And he went on to be elected? And people voted seven times to keep him around?

In some situations, such as Chavez's ATTEMPT to oust the old government by force, I do trust. Because it was a corrupt government, and his actual rise to power involved no 'force of arms'.

[Codeine]

195. Yes, I was referring to the coup

I'm glad you still trust him after that; I don't.

[GirlinContempt]

196. Still trust him after that?

After a failed coup directed at a corrupt government 14 years ago? Yeah. I do.

But, frankly, what's more important than you or I passing trust judgments is that the majority of people in his country trust him. They pardoned him, ran him, won, and trust him. That matters both on a political scale, and though pure conjecture I'd venture a guess it matters to him more.

I trust the citizens of a country to make the decisions that are best for them when given a fair opportunity to do so. Especially when those citizens are clearly passionate, informed, and have a voice.

[Judi Lynn]

197. So you appear to think no one should have attempted to remove

the president quickly who had demanded his forces slaughter protesting Venezuelans in the very streets of Caracas. Well, that figures, doesn't it?

Hugo Chavez was certainly pardoned by a following Venezuelan President who apparently didn't know as much about the situation as you do.

The President against whom two coups were attempted, Carlos Andres Perez, was finally impeached due to his massive corruption, and his pilfering of the equivalent of 17,000,000 dollars from the Venezuelan treasury.

~snip~
One voice in the anti-Chavez chorus has a familiar ring to his voice. Former President Carlos Andres Perez gives TV and newspaper interviews as an authority on democracy and good government. Convicted of embezzlement and having given the command for army troops to fire at his own people, this mass murderer somehow claims to occupy moral high ground. And the media accepts him as if the Venezuela conflict boils down to questions of procedure, not real democracy: majority rule.

Venezuelans overwhelmingly chose Chavez in 1998 and again in 2000, because they remembered what former presidents did – a memory that neither the media nor human rights groups seem to possess.

On February 27, 1989, Perez increased the price of gasoline and the cost of public transportation. Following an IMF model to garner foreign investment, his austerity policies hit the poorest people hardest. But Perez apparently did not expect Venezuelans to respond to “economic shock” programs with spontaneous protests, which erupted throughout the country. In some areas, rioters torched shops and set up roadblocks.

When the police went on strike, the government lost control. Perez called for a state of emergency. The soldiers fired into crowds. By March 4, the government claimed that 257 lay dead. Some non-governmental sources estimated the death toll at over 2,000. Thousands were wounded.

Perez, who called himself a socialist, first imposed draconian measures on the poor and then had them shot when they objected. The Caracazo as the event became known, not only destroyed Venezuela’s aura of stability but put an end to the political system that had replaced the ousted military dictator Perez Jimenez in 1958.
(snip/...)

http://www.progresoweekly.com/friendly.php?pdr=Jul0107_04&progreso=Landau

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~



~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Timeline of the president against whom Hugo Chavez led a coup, the same man who was later impeached for corruption and imbezzlement, the lesser sins of his filthy presidential career:

1989 - Carlos Andres Perez (AD) elected president against the background of economic depression, which necessitates an austerity programme and an IMF loan. Social and political upheaval includes riots, in which between 300 and 2,000 people are killed, martial law and a general strike.

1992 - Some 120 people are killed in two attempted coups, the first led by future president Colonel Hugo Chavez, and the second carried out by his supporters. Chavez is jailed for two years before being pardoned

1993-95 - Ramon Jose Velasquez becomes interim president after Perez is ousted on charges of corruption; Rafael Caldera elected president.

1996 - Perez imprisoned after being found guilty of embezzlement and corruption.
(snip/...)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/1229348.stm

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

~snip~
Yet the idea that the country was not polarized on February 27th, 1989 during the Caracazo, for example, when anywhere from 327 (government figure) and 3,000 (independent estimates by journalists) people were killed by the Venezuelan military is extremely offensive to the Venezuelans who lived the tragedy.
(snip/...)

http://counterpunch.org/girdin08142004.html

[Judi Lynn]

198. More photos from the massacre one poster believes should

not have been answered by a coup against the President who was later impeached, although a U.S. backed coup against Hugo Chavez who had NOT slaughtered citizens is fine.

[GirlinContempt]

205. Thanks Judi Lynn

[Judi Lynn]

218. Isn't it odd so few Americans know a thing about this event?

Apparently things like this are of no interest to our corporate media, since the uprising was smashed and the monster who did it was US-friendly, in fact, _Bush family friendly.

Sheesh!

[GirlinContempt]

225. I think part of it is about the words that are used.

Many people have negative associations with some of the words used in this situation, and I think that helps to colour it negatively without even trying.
Words & phrases like:
Coup
Revolution
The People
Populist
Socialist

Seem to have a negative connotation no matter what to some people, despite their rather benign or neutral origins. I think it's an after effect of McCarthyism, honestly.

[digno dave]

103. You haven't been around long, apparently

propping up such people is common around here

[IntiRaymi]

30. Adidas should make a line of clothes based on this event

"La Revolucion" athletic wear.
Beard not included. :D

[robcon]

38. No word on what he is suffering from, ...

nor the nature of his operation.

He's living proof that it's great to be a despot, who answers to no one.

[Placebo]

50. Too bad he survived.

The world will celebrate the day this man is 6 feet under.

[Minstrel Boy]

52. "The world will celebrate the day this man is 6 feet under"

Which world might that be?

Not Nelson Mandela's.

[Name removed]

58. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Mika]

66. An imaginary world. n/t

[GirlinContempt]

175. Didn't you get the memo?

The US is the only world that matters.

[Endangered Specie]

65. I wont miss him either, but at the same time...

I get the feeling someone else will stand in to take his place (either in the communist party, or some rich right-wing exploiters).

Hope for the best I guess.

[Placebo]

68. Yup...

I wish change for the better could happen fast down there, but I don't see it happening.

[Yupster]

142. I think under the Cuban system of secession

it is not Castro's wife, the queen who takes over but the prince, his brother. Tough though as these dynastic rulings can be quite complicated in monarchies.

[Eugene]

73. Reuters: Castro cautions recovery to take time

Castro cautions recovery to take time
Mon Aug 14, 2006 12:37am ET

By Anthony Boadle

HAVANA (Reuters) - Ailing Cuban leader Fidel Castro said his recovery could
take time and cautioned Cubans to be ready for bad news, while acting president
Raul Castro stepped into his brother's public role by greeting Venezuelan
President Hugo Chavez as he arrived for a visit.

Nearly two weeks after Fidel Castro temporarily ceded power to his younger brother
-- the first change of control in the communist Caribbean nation in 47 years --
Cubans finally got a look at both men on Sunday.

-snip-

"I suggest you be optimistic and, at the same time, always prepared to receive
bad news," he said in his message.

"To say the stability has improved considerably is not to tell a lie. To say that the
period of recovery will be short and there is now no risk would be absolutely
incorrect," Castro said in the message posted on the youth daily's Web site
(http://www.juventudrebelde.cu).

-snip-

Full article: http://today.reuters.com/news/articlenews.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2006-08-14T043704Z_01_N01421207_RTRUKOC_0_US-CUBA.xml

[Judi Lynn]

77. Cuba stays calm with Castro on sidelines

Cuba stays calm with Castro on sidelines
By Ginger Thompson The New York Times

Published: August 14, 2006

MEXICO CITY The decline of Fidel Castro, who turned 80 on Sunday and appeared in photographs for the first time since his unspecified intestinal surgery last month, was supposed to be a kind of second Cuban revolution. The notion, put forward by Cuba specialists for years, was that the entire system hung on one man.

But in the last two weeks, with Mr. Castro turning over power to his brother Raúl, at least for now, a different reality has emerged on the island. There was calm and normalcy, not chaos and hysteria that was predicted. Instead of an intervention by the United States, the Bush administration called on the Cuban people to take their future in their own hands. And rather than upheaval within the Cuban government, it appears that the political system may not change much at all.

"American policy toward Cuba has always been based on the fragility of the Cuban system," said Philip Peters, an expert on Cuba at the Lexington Institute, a policy group based in Virginia that promotes free-market economics. "There is this predicate in our policies that the Cuban system is one that can be pushed over with one finger, and that has not been the case."

If Mr. Castro dies, the country's stability may be more overtly shaken. But so far it appears that Mr. Castro, who has governed Cuba for 47 years, may once again defy the experts and prove his influence, some call it control, over the government and its people, whether he survives or not.
(snip/...)

http://www.iht.com/articles/2006/08/14/america/web.0814castro.php

[mike923]

82. Does anybody else think the one with the paper is photoshopped?

The brightness of the paper does not match the rest of the room.

[lonestarnot]

84. What's with the adidas sweatshirt? Just wondering.

[rman]

87. For the curious: "Fidel - The Untold Story" (documentary)

Fidel - The Untold Story
http://www.chomskytorrents.org/TorrentDetails.php?TorrentID=1205
Fidel Castro has been one of the most influential and controversial figures of our time. This documentary offers a unique look at the man through exclusive interviews with Castro himself, public figures, historians, and close friends, with footage from the Cuban State archives. Alice Walker, Harry Belafonte, and Sydney Pollack discuss the personality of Fidel Castro. Current and former U.S government figures including Ramsey Clark, Wayne Smith, Congressman Charles Rangel, and a former CIA agent offer their political and historical perspectives. "Infuriating & fascinating! Required viewing." (The Miami Herald).

[Say_What]

90. Film maker Estella Bravo's documentary is excellent!!

Here's the amazon link: http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00009IAYC/104-9731628-0422309?redirect=true

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

100. Does it mention that

he has never faced a free election or that his brother the Vice President was appointed 60 years ago, by him?

Does it mention that no opposing political parties are legal in Cuba?

Does it mention that no other labor unions are allowed to organize?

Probably not.

[Mika]

102. Yet another Cuba "expert" I see

Here's some factual info that might run counter to your "expertise".

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

--

Representative Fidel Castro was elected to the National Assembly as a representative of District #7 Santiago de Cuba.
He is one of the elected 607 representatives in the Cuban National Assembly. It is from that body that the head of state is nominated and then elected



Dorticós Torrado, Osvaldo
http://www.bartleby.com/65/do/Dorticos.html

1919–83, president of Cuba (1959–76). A prosperous lawyer, he participated in Fidel Castro’s revolutionary movement and was imprisoned (1958). He escaped and fled to Mexico, returning to Cuba after Castro’s triumph (1959). As minister of laws (1959) he helped to formulate Cuban policies. He was appointed president in 1959. Intelligent and competent, he wielded considerable influence. In 1976 the Cuban government was reorganized, and Castro assumed the title of president; Dorticós was named a member of the council of state.

Here are some of the major parties in Cuba. The union parties hold the majority of seats in the Assembly.

http://www.gksoft.com/govt/en/cu.html

* Partido Comunista de Cuba (PCC) {Communist Party of Cuba}
* Partido Demócrata Cristiano de Cuba (PDC) {Christian Democratic Party of Cuba} - Oswaldo Paya's Catholic party
* Partido Solidaridad Democrática (PSD) {Democratic Solidarity Party}
* Partido Social Revolucionario Democrático Cubano {Cuban Social Revolutionary Democratic Party}
* Coordinadora Social Demócrata de Cuba (CSDC) {Social Democratic Coordination of Cuba}
* Unión Liberal Cubana {Cuban Liberal Union}

Workers Rights In Cuba
REPORT OF THE UNITED STATES DELEGATION
TO THE 2002 EXCHANGE BETWEEN U.S. AND CUBAN
LABOR AND EMPLOYMENT LAWYERS, NEUTRALS AND
TRADE UNIONISTS
http://72.14.209.104/search?q=cache:SYQtLRCyAZgJ:www.nlg.org/programs/l_ec/cuba_report_2002.pdf+labor+unions+%2BCuba&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=19

Approximately 97 to 98 percent of all Cuban workers are members of one of the nineteen national unions, all of which are grouped in the CTC. The workers directly elect their local union representatives, and the representatives to a national trade union Congress which takes place every five years. Union membership is voluntary. Dues are not deducted from the workers’ salary. Workers pay their dues voluntarily to a local union official on a monthly basis. The unions and the CTC are financially independent of the state and the Communist Party.

In contrast to the U.S. system, which delineates permissive subjects of bargaining at the “core of entrepreneurial control” over which enterprise managements may not be required to negotiate with their workers’ representatives, the CTC maintains that there is no aspect of enterprise or political decision making in Cuba in which the unions do not participate. The observations of our delegation do not contradict this assertion.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

106. What is a political party

without the right to campaign or engage in public political activities? Not quite the same thing is it?

http://www.hrw.org/reports/1999/cuba/Cuba996-01.htm#P355_13934

This quote comes later in the piece, but I thought it had such panache that it should be first in its own highlight. Viva El Rey!!

In an extraordinary June 1998 statement, Cuban Justice Minister Roberto Díaz Sotolongo justified Cuba's restrictions on dissent by explaining that, as Spain had instituted laws to protect the monarch from criticism, Cuba was justified in protecting Fidel Castro from criticism, since he served a similar function as Cuba's "king."

Cuban authorities continue to treat as criminal offenses nonviolent activities such as meeting to discuss the economy or elections, writing letters to the government, reporting on political or economic developments, speaking to international reporters, or advocating the release of political prisoners.

--snip--

Cuban authorities often refer to peaceful anti-government activists as "counter-revolutionaries." But Cuba's invocation of a state security interest to control nonviolent dissent—for acts as innocuous as handing out "Down with Fidel" flyers—represents a clear abuse of authority.

And according to Amnesty International, a group I think we might all be familiar with:
http://www.amnestyusa.org/countries/cuba/document.do?id=ar&yr=2005

In April the UN Commission on Human Rights passed a resolution deploring the verdicts against political opponents and journalists arrested in 2003. It called for Cuba to cooperate with the UN envoy and to “refrain from adopting measures which could jeopardise the fundamental rights, the freedom of expression and the rights to due process of its citizens”.

--snip--

Dissidents continued to be threatened, harassed and detained.

Members of the Christian Liberation Movement involved in collecting signatures for the Varela Project – a petition for a referendum on political and economic reforms – were repeatedly harassed and detained. Among those targeted were Daniel Pereira García, Flora María Echevarría, Eric Isabel Arriera Reynoso, José Lorenzo Pérez Fidalgo and Alexis Triana Montesinos.

--snip--
AI Visits

AI last visited Cuba in 1988 and has not been permitted into the country since then.

Since we are on the subject of Cuba's Constitution, how about a little thing called Article 62:

http://www.cubanet.org/ref/dis/const_92_e.htm

None of the freedoms which are recognized for citizens can be exercised contrary to what is established in the Constitution and by law, or contrary to the existence and objectives of the socialist state, or contrary to the decision of the Cuban people to build socialism and communism. Violations of this principle can be punished by law.

How about the preamble? Doesn't seem to be much rom for change here. Cult of Personality much?

to carry forward the triumphant Revolution of the Moncada and of the Granma of the Sierra and of Girón under the leadership of Fidel Castro...

[rman]

112. "No political party, including the Communist Party...

is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates."

It looks like in so far that elections are concerned, Cuba has no political parties...

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

114. Yet it excercises De Facto Control

ARTICLE 5. The Communist Party of Cuba, a follower of Martí’s ideas and of Marxism-Leninism, and the organized vanguard of the Cuban nation, is the highest leading force of society and of the state, which organizes and guides the common effort toward the goals of the construction of socialism and the progress toward a communist society...

How many candidates are there in the Assembly from opposition parties? Key word, opposition.

Instead the candidates are nominated by grass roots assemblies and by electoral commissions comprising representatives of all the mass organisations.

--snip--
the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

--snip--
In addition to receiving nominations from different organisations and institutions, the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate.

--snip--

narrowing it down to 589.

So the "candidacy commisions" put out a slate of 589 candidates for an assembly made up of 609 seats? What is the makeup of the remainder of the seats, in fact, what is the affiliation breakdown for all the people's "representatives?" Are any other slates proposed to the people from other organizations not sanctioned or organized by the PCC?

[rman]

117. "opposition parties" - hardly relevant if political parties play no part

in elections.

[Akim]

120. Absence of Political Parties Sign of National Unity

Is it not conceivable to you that a country—any country—could be so satisfied with its government and its leader as to wish to have no other? Opposition parties cannot be improvised; they must have a natural evolution. In Cuba, the ever-present threat of U.S. invasion and the privations inflicted by the U.S. trade embargo have created a singular unity that transcends the pettiness of politics. Yes, there are isolated discontents, called "dissidents" by the media; but these people do not hate the regime as such as they hate one another and have therefore been unable to coalesce into anything resembling a political party. Don't blame Fidel for this.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

122. The Soviets were extremely satisfied as well?

Guess Stalin was a loved and adored leader as well by that logic.

[Akim]

123. Actually, Stalin Was Beloved and Adored

Actually, Stalin was beloved and adored, so much so that even today the Russian Archives refuses to release footage of his funeral, which was the greatest display of mass grieving in the history of mankind. Even today elderly Russians refer to Stalin's rule as "the good old days."

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

126. Tell that to the Tens of Millions he murdered.

Wait, there is no evidence of that right?

Public displays of affection for Stalin were "highly encouraged" by the State.

One plain examle is in Solzenitsyn's Gulag Archipelago about Parliment members being spirited away if they didn't clap long enough for Stalin at Assembly meetings. The practice got so ridiculous that members collapsed before they dared stop clapping.

[Akim]

127. The Soviet peoples loved Stalin for many reasons:

The Soviet peoples loved Stalin for many reasons:

1). 90% of the Soviet people knew nothing about repression because they were not repressed. They went along with the system because they believed in it or it was the expedient thing to do.

2). The material well-being of the Soviet peoples, their health and education, increased prodigiously under his rule.

3). Stalin and the Soviet peoples saved mankind from the scourge of Naziism. Stalinism died with Stalin. If it had been triumphant, Naziism wouldn't have died with Hitler.

Morally speaking, Stalin was no more odious than Roosevelt or Churchill.

[rinsd]

148. Get thee back to the WWP

"Morally speaking, Stalin was no more odious than Roosevelt or Churchill"

I've seen some dumbshit posted here but this takes the cake.

[Akim]

159. Stalin Inspired All Progressive Social Movements in 20th Century

Sixty years ago, everyone was a Stalinist who had any heart or fellow feeling for other human beings. An entire generation of progressives could not have been completely wrong. Your own thought, if it was shaped in a liberal mold, was probably beholden to Stalinists, decent and honorable men who believed that a world was possible where man was not the prey of man. In some respects it was a dream, as all utopian schemes ultimately are. But that for two decades this dream galvanized the youth of the world and spurred them on to pursue other dreams, such as a color-blind society, cannot be doubted. Stalinists were in the vanguard of civil rights in this country and a hundred other progressive movements. Their contributions to a more humane world are unmatched in the 20th century.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

161. Unmatched is correct.

The murder of 20MM to 60MM is unmatched in the 20th century.

[Akim]

163. Wrong Again. You Must Be Thinking of Mao. n/t

Wrong again. You must be thinking of Mao.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

166. Okay 20MM is the most recent number

Robert Conquest. The Great Terror: A Reassessment, Oxford University Press, 1991

Estimates do range up to 60MM people.

And the deaths in the famine ARE directly attributable to Stalin's regime and should be part ofthe numbers. These numbers range from 6MM-8MM.

As for the love of Stalin, Nikita Kkrushchev began condemning Stalin's practices in the mid 50's with his Secret Speech

[killbotfactory]

179. Hmm...

I wouldn't put much stock in people who associate with the Hoover institution and the Heritage foundation.

http://www.hoover.org/bios/conquest/

[rinsd]

165. I was more correct than even I believed.

Stalinists = Progressive is so much bullshit. The regime of Stalin was contradictory to the values that liberals and progressive hold dear. Its even insulting to Communists who for all their faults at least clung to the ideals put forth by Marx and later Lenin(who wasn;lt saint either).

Stalinists are about power and are very much like the neocons that drew from Stalinist scum to burgeon their ranks.

[Akim]

169. Shall I Make You a List of Famous Stalinists in the West? n/t

[rinsd]

171. Sure...I love a good tale.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

154. Revisionist Historian Much?

Morally speaking, Stalin was no more odious than Roosevelt or Churchill.

If he wasn't any more odius than Roosevelt or Churchill, then why did his own people find it fit to remove him from his place in Lenin's Tomb in 1961 without so much as a fiesta? Totalitarian regimes are loathe to give up their symbols and cults of personality; at least, not without some fanfare. Yet this one, one of the BIGGEST symbols in Soviet History was quitely removed.

Speaking of Nazis (I hate talking about Nazis on an internet forum b/c of the funny rule about internet debates), Hitler had the populace pleasantly deluded as well. 90% of them were unaffected by his concentration camps for Poles, Jews, Homosexuals, etc (Funny how Stalin had an affinity for these folks as well). The material well-being of the German's improved greatly in his relatively short reign (compared to Stalin). Had the political powers that be in the US been different, we might be saying that he rid the world of the scourge of Stalinism. Yet we don't dare make statements that he is "morally speaking... no more odious than Roosevelt or Churchill.

[Akim]

158. Stalin Cannot Be Compared to Hitler

His own people did not remove him from his tomb in the Kremlin beside Lenin; it was the very men who served him who turned against him in order to conceal their own complicity in whatever excesses may have transpired in that volatile time in history.

Please note that Lenin is still in his tomb, despite sporadic calls from fascistic elements to remove him. Western historians have long alleged that Lenin was as bad as Stalin, that he, in fact, instituted the reign of terror which Stalin only inherited. And, yet, he is still in his Kremlin Mausoleum, and Russia's democratic leaders are impotent to do anything about it. The simple fact is that the people won't allow him to be removed. Neither would they have consented to Stalin's removal if Stalin's successors had consulted them.

As for the so-called "scourge of Stalinism," it cannot be compared by any stretch of the imagination to the campaign of racial and ethnic extermination undertaken by Hitler. In Stalin's Russia, if you didn't oppose the state you were let alone. In Hitler's Germany, it would have availed the Jews, homosexuals, gypsies, mental defectives and others nothing merely not to oppose Hitler. They would have been dead whether they opposed or supported him.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

160. Wow

Just Wow is all I have to say.

Then the famine of 1932-1934 caused by the seizing of grain by Stalin's military was a big misunderstanding?

Stalin killed orders of magnitude more people than Hitler. Stalin did engage in MASS MURDER. Regardless of Race, Ethnicity, Religion, Education. Murder is Murder.

Being a Stalin Apologist is a new one on me.

[Akim]

162. Stalin Made the World Safe For Democracy

I am not a Stalin apologist. In fact, I make no apologies for Stalin whatever.

And by the way, here is Stalin's greatest achievement (which is never acknowledged or credited to him):

By defeating Hitlerism, Stalin made the world save for democracy.

[Akim]

164. Stalin Acted Correctly During the Famines

By the way, famines happen in all societies, not just socialist ones. With a limited amount of food available, it made perfect sense for Stalin to reserve most of it for the Army, which was entrusted with protecting the motherland against the predations of imperialist powers who would be only to happy to turn such a situation to their advantage.

[rinsd]

168. But you're not a Stalin apologist

You just told us that right before you offered up excuses for his policies.

[Akim]

170. There Is Nothing to Apologize For

I said that I am not a Stalin apologist because Stalin needs no apologists. There is nothing for which to apologize unless you consider saving Western civilization a mistake.

[rinsd]

172. Sigh

Anything and everything to justify monstrosity with unwavering loyalty to Dear Leader.

Yup...Stalinism in a nutshell.

[Akim]

176. Congratulations, Rumsfeld Agrees With You About Stalin.

Congratulations, Rumsfeld Agrees With You About Stalin.

http://www.democracynow.org/article.pl?sid=05/08/24/1343218&mode=thread&tid=25

Rumsfeld Compares Anti-War Activists to Backers of Stalin

Meanwhile the Bush administration appears to have launched a coordinated effort to discredit the anti-war movement. On Tuesday, President Bush, White House spokesman Trent Duffy and Defense Secretary Donald Rumsfeld all took jabs at critics of the war. Duffy described the critics as people who don't believe the U.S. must win the war on terror. And Rumsfeld compared anti-war activists to American supporters of Joseph Stalin. He said "Throughout history there have always been those who predict America's failure just around every corner... Many Western intellectuals praised Stalin... For a time, Communism was very much en vogue... thankfully the American people are better centered. They ultimately come to the right decisions on big issues. And the future of Iraq is a very big issue."

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

177. So What?

We should disagree with him and embrace Stalinism just because he is Rummy?

[rinsd]

178. LOL...this keeps getting funnier.

Here's a helpful link.

http://www.csun.edu/~dgw61315/fallacies.html

[Akim]

193. They Yield the Battlefield to Stalin — So Did Hitler

I guess they were overwhelmed by facts they could not accept.

[rinsd]

194. I yield nothing!

When you post an actual fact, let me know.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

173. I am actually sick to my stomach right now.

I didn't realize the old Soviets still had Stalin's propagandists on their payrolls.

You win, not by force of logic or by force of wills, but I honestly have no answer for someone as far gone as you are. I refuse to validate your statements any further with an intelligent debate.

[rinsd]

167. My mind is blown

"In Stalin's Russia, if you didn't oppose the state you were let alone."

I'm speechless.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

121. Save One

The one mentioned in the Constitution of Cuba.

[Mika]

119. The slate you mention is for the Ratification Election.

Typically, most anti Cuba sources neglect to mention that those are the ratifications of the elected candidates.

In Cuba the nomination process IS the general election of a candidate from among a group of opposing candidates from within that district.

In Cuba, after a candidate is "nominated", as in: elected from an open publicly selected slate of opposing candidates (which cannot be selected by any party INCLUDING the communist party). The elected (nominated by election) candidates are then subjected to a Ratification Election where at least 50%+1 of the voters in said district must ratify the elected candidate for his/her seat in the National Assembly. This is the step that most sources falsely claim that candidates were nominated (by election) unopposed. It is a ratification of the elected (nominated by election) candidate for their seat. If the candidate is not ratified by a majority in their district then a new election in the district is undertaken.

Most anti Cuba propaganda sources deliberately mistake this process as the only step in Cuban elections. It is not so.

I've seen how the Cuban election process works - I saw the entire election season in Cuba in 1997-98.


One can learn about the entire democratic process in Cuba from here..

Democracy in Cuba and the 1997-98 Elections
Arnold August
1999
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

125. Elected/Nominated?

How? By who?

From your own source, which I assume is not anti-Castro (I agree with you that we need to separate Castro and Cuba)

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

The elections to the provincial and national assemblies (Cuba's regional and national parliaments) follow a different procedure. For deputies to the national assembly the nominating process involves proposals from the municipal councils.

...the candidacy commissions carry out an exhaustive process of consultation before drawing up a final slate. In the February 1993 elections they consulted more than 1.5 million people and established a pool of between 60 and 70 thousand potential candidates before narrowing it down to 589.

[Akim]

128. 70,000 Candidates! Now THAT Is a Participatory Democracy!

70,000 potential candidates in a population of just 11 million! How dare the U.S. boast of a participatory democracy! In comparison to Cuba's real democracy, the U.S. is an elitist republic modelled after ancient Greece.

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

155. Read it again.

N/T

[Mika]

180. By the electorate in the district.

Unlike the US, candidates are not chosen in back rooms in secret by party honchos brokering deals and/or deciding on a candidate based upon how much campaign money the candidate can raise (by hook and crook).


How are candidates nominated for delegates to the Municipal Assemblies?
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ002.html

Each Municipality is divided into several electoral districts or constituencies. The residents of each constituency will elect one delegate to their Municipal Assembly from two or more candidates. These candidates are nominated at public meetings held throughout the constituency several weeks before the Municipal election.

For the purpose of organizing these nomination meetings, the constituency is subdivided into smaller nomination areas. They are roughly equivalent to the area spanned by a chapter of the Committees for the Defense of the Revolution (CDR), a neigbourhood watch organization which includes the vast majority of residents over the age of 14 in that area. These meetings are organized by local volunteers and members of the CDR's in the area.

Within the City of Havana, for example, there is the municipality called Plaza de la Revolucion. It is divided into several constituencies. One of them, Constituency Number 12, is an area of eight city blocks. For the 1997 municipal elections, this constituency was divided into 7 nomination areas. Residents of each of these nomination areas met to nominate a candidate for the Municipal Assembly. (Arnold August, in his book Democracy in Cuba, presents a detailed case study of this constituency.)

Nomination meetings are open to all members of the public, including foreign visitors. Any resident of the nomination area who is present at these meetings may nominate any other resident of the same constituency. Voting by a show of hands, residents select one nominee who will be on the ballot for their constituency in the upcoming municipal election. There must be at least two candidates nominated from each constituency.

How are candidates nominated for delegates to the Provincial and National Assemblies?
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ003.html

The Municipal Assemblies nominate candidates for delegates to the Provincial and National Assemblies. The various mass organizations – unions, students', farmers' and women's federations, etc. – play an active role in the nomination of candidates. In each municipality, they will conduct a candidate search and present their recommendations to the Municipal Assembly who may accept or reject any or all of them by a secret vote. Nominees will usually live, work or have some other relationship with the district in which her or she is nominated. By law, up to half of the nominees may already be delegates to the local Municipal Assembly. As a result of the 1998 elections, for example, 46% of delegates elected to the National Assembly were already delegates to their local Municipal Assemblies.

The various mass organizations (to which most all elegible voters 16 yrs old and above belong) – unions, students', farmers' and women's federations, etc. – play an active role in the nomination of candidates in the same way.. candidates are nominated at public meetings held throughout the constituency several weeks before the election. The turnout for the candidate selection (nominations) is above 90% of elegible voters.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Cubans rally to support ailing Castro as health worries ease

Published Wednesday, August 9, 2006

Cubans rally to support ailing Castro as health worries ease

By VANESSA ARRINGTON
Associated Press Writer

HAVANA

~snip~
"We are here for the life of our comandante," said Olga Rosada, who appeared to be in her late 60s.

Referring to a widespread belief on the island that the U.S. government or Cuban exiles want to take advantage of Castro's ill health by invading, Rosada said Cubans "don't fear anyone or anything. And if anyone wants to come here, let them come. They are going to leave crushed!"
(snip/...)

http://www.theledger.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20060809/APN/608090525

[Akim]

110. Bush's Answer to Castro Health Crisis: Steal Cuban Doctors

Just when we thought nothing else could surprise us, Bush has found yet another underhanded means to use in his dirty war against Cuba. He wants to steal Cuba's most valuable resource — its doctors. Bush has issued a directive that will facilitate their automatic admission into the U.S. from third countries. This policy is aimed directly at Cuban doctors on internationalist humanitarian missions, thereby not only hurting Cuba itself but millions who depend on their assistance in the Third World. Yes, the very doctors that were spurned when offered for Katrina relief Bush is now determined to procure through hook and crook. In addition to the outrageous government benefits afforded only to Cuban exiles, amounting to some $100,000 in aid, they will also have the validation of their credentials expedited and monies facilitated for setting themselves up in practice here.

On a more uplifting note, Bolivian President Evo Morales led thousands of peasants in a demonstration of gratitude in front of a hospital staffed by Cuban physicians, gratitude to the doctors and to the man who sent them. In honor of Fidel's 80th birthday, the crowd sang "Happy Birthday" and the atmosphere reverberated with shouts of "¡Viva Fidel, Viva Cuba, Viva los Médicos Cubanos!"

[Akim]

111. San Francisco Honors Fidel On Birthday

http://www.sanfranciscosentinel.com/news_in_brief/happy_birthday_fidel_060814.shtml


FIDEL CASTRO
by Jack Hirschman
(reproduced with permission)

The president of the other America has fallen ill
and it is his birthday. We wish him Happy
Birthday and a speedy recovery.

By the other America, we don't simply mean
his brothers and sister in Venezuela, Bolivia,
Chile, Peru, Brazil, Haiti and the like.

We mean also the 37 million people living destitute
and in misery in these disunited States, of whom
six million kids go to bed hungry every night,

while a murder machine waves the false flag of security
and makes war on the poor of the world.
What is more insecure than the empty belly of a child?

The president of the other America knows that there is
a poverty that is the wealth of the world. Viva the poverty
of Cuba that makes even the comrade on the cross applaud.

Viva the dignity of Cuba, whose island arms stretch
all the way to the equality of love that is Africa.
There is a man who has understood that life is worth

nothing if it is not free, and freedom nothing if it is not
consciousness of necessity---principled, palpable and priceless.
That is Fidel. That is fidelidad. Be well, commandante. Feliz cumpleanos.

[0007]

124. Oh yeah!!

?x=298&y=345&sig=GcqoCd2RXnCBmZjAyMyTqw--

[robcon]

113. Does ANYONE think that's a real newspaper in the picture?

Does it look like a photoshop of the pre-print of Granma (the official newspaper)?

[Akim]

115. Does this really matter anymore?

Does this really matter anymore?

There is now a 10-minute video of Chávez and Raúl conversing with Fidel by his bedside.

There is no longer any doubt that Fidel lives.

[rman]

118. Apparently reprint

But it's beyond me why anyone would think it's a photoshop of a reprint.

[MikeyJones]

131. Too bad he won't die for another decade......

I guess the Cuban people have to wait another ten years before they can criticize their fucking government or be given freedom of the press.

[Judi Lynn]

136. Once you start training yourself to read much more, you will run across

information from people who have been to Cuba, talked to Cubans, and heard them criticizing their government themselves.

The problem with right-wingdings in the U.S. is that it appears Cubans don't hate their government the way idiot right-wingers here hate it (knowing nothing whatsoever about the real conditions there).

Take some time out and start doing your homework, like people who eventually learn something. Get informed on your subject before offering everyone your opinion. Make it an informed opinion.

It's the only honest thing to do to look into it yourself, rather than repeating what idiots tell you.

[MikeyJones]

141. I am informed on the Cuban issue

and I do read a lot thank you. I read reports from neutral 3rd parties who state that he bans freedoms of the press, speech, and religion to name quite a few. The man is an anti-freedom dictator who does NOT represent the common man. Maybe you talk to individual Cubans when they're out of the country and/or talking in the privacy of their homes but there are no significant anti-Castro newspapers/television stations that bring the truth to the Cuban people.

Besides, my girlfriend's Cuban and she recently was in Cuba visiting family and she tells me Mr. Castro is still the same slimy quasi-Adolf he was 40 years ago. Different age, same asshole.

[Judi Lynn]

144. People who visit Cuba from the States can PICK UP U.S. RADIO ON WALKMEN.

One of DU's finest posters is a Canadian who has been there again and again, and has informed us she can hear stations from the U.S. on her inexpensive radio in the heart of Havana.

DU'ers who have been there themselves have been in HOMES in Cuba and WATCHED tv from the United States with their Cuban friends.

Cubans pick up radio and tv from the other islands, and from Central and South America. Only an idiot wouldn't be able to figure this out.

Get in your car, drive 100 miles from your large city, take your portable tv with you, and see if you can pick up tv stations from your own town. The answer is, "Duh, YEAH!"

With antennas, they definitely have access to information from other places.

They read periodicals from other countries. One of the Congress people from my state said he was surprised when he in Cuba and spoke with a cab driver who actually knew what was happening in OUR OWN CONGRESS.

Another poster here, from Florida, learned from someone she met in Cuba that the lady not only read US papers regularly, but ALSO KNEW THE NAMES OF THE COLUMNISTS IN THE MIAMI HERALD.

Don't even try to peddle that claptrap here.

[Say_What]

149. Looks like the GusanoExpress just arrived...

I just love the way they unravel at the mention of Fidel's name.

:rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

151. Aren't they delightful?

As if the Cubans are going to call and say they miss their DEATH SQUADS!

[Yupster]

208. Most Cubans weren't born

yet when Castro seized power.

The nice thing about a President-for-life I guess is you don't have to compare presidents and rank them and all.

[colorado_ufo]

215. From those who love him, hate him, and everything inbetween,

the one criticism that I have never heard of Fidel Castro is that what he has done and is doing is for his own personal gain. Power may be an intoxicant, but Fidel's idealism has always seemed to temper its influence.