Norway up in arms after author asserts Israel has lost right to exist

[Behind the Aegis]

An article in a leading Norwegian newspaper last weekend lambasted Israel and Judaism and said Israel has lost its right to exist in its present form.

Entitled "God's chosen people," the article by author Jostein Gaarder in Aftenposten is raising a storm in Norway. Gaarder, author of the book "Sophie's World," links the Israel Defense Forces' acts in Lebanon to Jewish history and foresees the coming dismantling of the state as it exists today, with the Jews becoming refugees.

In an interview with Haaretz Gaarder said Thursday that he was misunderstood. "As John Kennedy declared in Germany 'I am a Berliner' ¬ I say now 'I am a Jew,'" he said.

The article compares Israel's government, the Afghan Taliban regime and South African apartheid, and states, "We no longer recognize the State of Israel" and "the State of Israel in its current form is history."


more...

[w4rma]

1. I want to see Israel exist under a much different government.

But this type of sentiment as written about in the article has only been spreading exponentially since the Israeli neo-con leadership have gone on their dishonorable massacre in Lebanon. Instead of acting surprised when you read things like that, you should just expect more of it as the slaughter continues and you should expect folks to give Israel a lot less leeway from now on, also.

Just stating the facts, don't get angry at the messenger.

[Oversea Visitor]

2. I read the articles

Maybe alot of debates. That is good make people think.

One person express view other side disagreed and hey

NORWAY UP IN ARMS

OMG Millions on street marching..... aaah ok ok hundreds of thousands...... ok thousands?

hmmm hundreds? what noone just lots of noise. :rofl:

Well guy sure know how to choose a sensitive topics.

He make his points. We looks at facts.

Gee off with his head,... anti jews anti Isreal..... woah demand goverment to ..... what?

Thou shall not say anything harsh again Israel or thous shall be call the enemy.

Come on give it a rest OK. That guy just putting out his point of view.

Maybe one look at what he is saying maybe he doing a good deed for Israel.

Cannot keep going on this way and hope for peace.

[0007]

11. After all Norway is a civilized country compared to most....

Good response!

[Vidar]

3. Moronic headline.

[burythehatchet]

41. typical

desire to inflame indicates lack of desire to communicate

on edit - headline is identical to title of article.

[DRoseDARs]

4. I thought Kennedy declared he was a jelly donut?

:shrug:

I'm going to reserve judgement on the article due to the fact that translations often lose something in the ... erm ... translation.

[Oversea Visitor]

5. He got deep mind

The I am a Jews part is straight forward.
Me think the Kennedy part is about being citizen of the world.

So the message here would be

I am a citizen of the world and a Jews.

That is my take

[PCIntern]

6. In much the same manner as Ann Coulter

is able to move the 'middle' to the Right by her outrageous statements, these pronouncements by 'folks' like Gaarder allow genteel individuals to openly discuss the merits and demerits of the existence of Israel. All extremist movements are originally ridiculed, then often progress to legitimacy.

Of all the countries in the world, the only one whose name is associated with the word 'illegitimate' is Israel. For all the dictatorships and monarchies where thousands if not millions of political prisoners have been incarcerated and killed, the only state of whom it is often said that dissolution is appropriate is Israel. But of course, this has nothing to do with "Semitism' or 'Jewishness', it has to do with 'righteousness' and proper display of 'even-handedness', since we're such a moralistic society. My sense of all this is that we should first compensate the Native Americans for the grotesque manner in which we stole what became the United States of America, and that they should have a right of return to theri lands. I for one would be thrilled to sign over my property to the Delaware Tribe. Any other takers?

[Name removed]

7. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[President Kerry]

25. I would not classify Israel's actions in Lebanon as conquest at all.

They are not there to acquire any resources other than the security of its citizens. I do believe this policy is misguided in its execution (i.e. bombing Lebanon), but its motivations (annihilating the terrorist threat of Hizbollah) are valid. The war the US waged in Iraq might arguably be classified as one of conquest, and is reprehensible. With Israel the story is different, and questioning its right to exist the author is way off base (misdirecting his anger at the current government to an entire people).

[dionysus]

26. they DO want control of the litani river, just sayin....

[Flanker]

8. "millions of political prisoners have been incarcerated"

I am sorry are we talking about somebody other than Israel? Soon that prison will even have official walls.

If only they have started Israel in a uninhabitted area and not one of the most densely populated in the world, cue Montana. It is evident that a new secular state must rise out of the ashes, with complete separation of church and state. For the record most other islamic states should follow but the urgency is for Israel, fat chance though.

[cali]

9. What is needed

urgently is a two state solution, with secure borders and territorial integrity for both Israel and Palestine.

[barb162]

47. ditto that, cali!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

10. "millions of political prisoners" in Israel?

Got a cite for that, dude, or did you just make it up?


If only they have started Israel in a uninhabitted area

Sure. Maybe Antarctica. Or the moon. If those pesky Jews would just stay away from everybody else then it'd all be fine, right?

[LeighAnn]

17. I disagree. Israel can only exist as a theocracy

If you create a "religious homeland" for settlers from all over the world by virtue of their religion, shouldn't those people be religious?

God always told the Jews they could have that land, provided they keep His Commandments and Laws. If they don't keep the Commandments and obey God's Laws, they won't get to keep the land. They never have. It's happened over and over again.

I wish the media would look at to what extent God's Laws are being obeyed in Israel. This is a very important factor that you hear very little about. I hope they are because I love God's People and I'd like it if there could be peace with all nations.

[Ian David]

21. Nobody's debating the right of The Vatican to exist

But it's not like there's ever been an anti-Catholic global Holocaust.

[LeighAnn]

38. No, and Catholics aren't dropping US bombs on people n/t

[Ian David]

43. They just force poor people to have more babies than they can feed...

pressure governments to keep people with AIDS from getting condoms, and mess with elections around the world in the name of "family values."

Even if you discount the Cathbolic Church's complicity in The Holocaust, they have racked-up a much higher body count than Israel has.

The Vatican's Crusades were fought at the tip of a sword, but now The "Holy" C fights via Memonic warfare, not bombs.

And they think that gives them a pass.

At least Israel isn't saying that they won't Bar Mitzvah the children of politicians who vote pro-choice.

[barb162]

48. Isreal is a secular state, not a theocracy

[MrPrax]

12. Makes no sense...

Coulter actually supports Israel unconditionally -- so her 'middle' is the same as yours? Did you bother thinking through your post or did you just feel that overwhelming need to toss in a pom pom for the home team?

Oh Burma is considered illegitimate as well. Neat trick though -- a Media that is usually so obsessed with Israel tends not to have much time to look at any other countries and THUS allowing one form of propaganda (propaganda by omission) to be used as a supporting argument for another form of propaganda (propaganda by ignorance).

Indigeous people? You mean like the people born and raised on a land, as opposed to the ones that just arrived from Toronto, New York or Lativa.

You have a very confused view of the world and it's people...

[PCIntern]

24. I'm confused?

No, you are.

You missed the point entirely...

Extremists like Coulter LIE continuouly...about everything...and th lies aqre so grotesque that moderate LIES become truth b/c most folks say: Well, that's not as bad a what ANN said.

It' Hitlerian...the BIg Lie...or am I not permitted to mention the Holocaust because it seems to offend so many people?

Very snotty post you made BTW. Everyone seemed to like my posts when I was bashing Bush. Why don't you do an equally critical analysis of all of your compatriot's posts here. I'd like to see that for a change.

[MaraJade]

27. Bravo!!

You are right to say that the people here who call for the dissolution of Israel should call first for the dissolution of the United States of America for breaking the treaties with Indians. Suchlike ones should also be backing the payment of reparations to the descendents of the slaves who toiled without pay for hundreds of years and to the Chinese who built much of the railway system in this nation at the expense of their lives.

I think that nothing but anti-semitism inspires the sort of nonsense expounded by Gaarder.

[Thickasabrick]

13. The comparison to South African apartheid - is that really off

base? It's my understanding that even if Jews marry Arabs - their Arab spouses cannot be citizens of Israel. I don't understand how Israel gets away with shit like that - but that's just me.

[IntiRaymi]

14. Not sure if that is true, since I don't know Israeli law.

But the impression I am getting is that Israel has lost much in the arena of public perception, both in the USA, as well as outside.
This, to me, is the crux of it all:
The engine that has driven the disapproval of Israel is its teatment of Palestinians, and the manner in which it has gone about murdering innocents in Lebanon.
If Israel somehow manages to eliminate these perception, opinions like these will go away.

[heliarc]

22. Israel is not necessarily similar to Apartheid

BUT... big but... while it is not Apartheid or really a Theocracy, it practices a UNION of Religion and State that begs real questioning. It also chooses religious identity (and arguably ethnic profiles) as a partial prerequisite for citizenship approval as stated in the Law of Return:

http://www.mfa.gov.il/MFA/MFAArchive/2000_2009/2001/8/Acquisition%20of%20Israeli%20Nationality.

The Law of Return extends citizenship rights (and voting rights at age 18) to anyone upon arrival to Israel if they were born of a Jewish mother or have a grandparent who is Jewish or have converted to Judaism (and don't practice another religion). Israeli citizenship is also extended to people who live in Israel and there are actually registered Arab Parties, although I don't know much more than that they exist. I can't say whether or not they have ever been elected to the Knesset.

It has also been proposed in the Knesset to allow Jews abroad to vote in Israeli elections. The prospect has never gained approval in the Knesset, and many in Israel find the possibility of that troubling for obvious reasons.

These are very controversial things to stand behind. And on top of this Ariel Sharon and others were guerrilla fighters to win the territory they now possess. They won it using quite a few of the same tactics that today they call terrorism. Lots of double standards in Israeli History. Everyone should have a place they call home. And the Jewish people are no different, but the injustices on both sides just keep mounting. Israel is a Jewish State where Jewish leaders rule the land. I have just about as much of a problem with that as I do the prospect of Islamic states with Islamic leaders. I can't imagine that national borders can be carved justly to prefer one religious practice for its citizens over another. The suggestion that this is possible is Medieval at best.

[MaraJade]

30. What about the Israelis. . .

who have lost hundreds of citizens to missile attacks and suicide bombs?

But I suppose that Palestinian lives are all that matters. . .

[IntiRaymi]

34. Granted, true, and I agree with your sentiment.

It's an all-around shitty situation, but the perception is definitely there.
Arguing over what is *really* going is almost not even applicable to this situation. And, if you want a bit of perspective, Hezbollah would not exist if not for Israeli adventurism in southern Lebanon.
Blowback is a bitch.

[MaraJade]

28. Wrongo!

There are, in fact, Arab citizens of Israel. I was there. I know. Furthermore, some of the
Hezbollah missiles fell on areas inhabited by Israeli Arabs.

And, to the best of my knowlege the Israeli government has no laws regarding who marries who (although
some religious groups there may have certain edicts.)

[heliarc]

37. This is true...

And there is an Arab Democratic party as well... but the Law of return specifically states that citizenship is immediately awarded to Jews, or to the children of Jewish parents. They've even begun instituting a "quarter" Jewish rule for candidates for citizenship who have a grandparent who is Jewish. I don't need to explicate the similarities this sort of ethnic profiling has to very well known campaigns in human history, but I do want to mention that it favors one religion over others. Israel is a Jewish state, and I have just as much a problem with that as I do have a problem with Islamic states. If the civil rights movement in the US proves anything, it proves that religion, race, sexual orientation, creed, sex/gender are NOT and should never be a determining factor in the rights of an individual.

[burythehatchet]

42. As far as I know South Africa didn't build a wall around

the black population.

[IndianaGreen]

15. Another Israel-loving lunatic

Gaarder now says he loves Israel, just as Pat Robertson was saying the same earlier this week while in Israel. Both Gaarder and Robertson have unique views of what their love for Israel really entails. Both support an end of Judaism and of Israel. In Gaarder's case is purely for secular reasons: Israel has no right to exist. In Robertson's case is for religious reasons: once Jesus returns there will be no Jews or Israel, the old "convert of die" routine.

We could do less with people that love Israel and Jews, and more with people that recognize Israel as a nation and Jews as members of the human race. Religious mythology should never enter the public discourse!

As to Kennedy saying that he was a Berliner, or a jelly donut, there is this urban legend:

"Jelly doughnut" urban legend

A common urban legend asserts that Kennedy made an embarrassing grammatical error by saying "Ich bin ein Berliner," referring to himself not as a citizen of Berlin, but as a common pastry:

Kennedy should have said "Ich bin Berliner" to mean "I am a person from Berlin." By adding the indefinite article ein, his statement implied he was a non-human Berliner, thus "I am a jelly doughnut". The statement was followed by uproarious laughter.

The legend stems from a play on words with Berliner, the name of a doughnut variant filled with jam or plum sauce that is thought to have originated in Berlin. This urban legend is largely unknown in Germany, where Kennedy's speech is considered a landmark in the country's postwar history.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ich_bin_ein_Berliner

[cali]

16. Thanks for that bit

of enjoyable trivia.

[kineneb]

19. on Kennedy

If my memory serves me (and yes, I am just old enough to remember the early 60s) his statement did use the "ein", but the Germans understood the intent and cheered him. Jelly doughnut or not, we were all Berliners with him.

Ah, for a time when the future looked brighter.

[mbperrin]

18. Actually the US was founded on the idea that no NATION has a

right to exist.

"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights, that among these are life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness. That to secure these rights, governments are instituted among men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any form of government becomes destructive to these ends, it is the right of the people to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their safety and happiness. "

Sound familiar? People are more important than States.

[heliarc]

23. Hear Hear

If anything, all of this hoo hah (as well as the internet, and the EU) prove that NO nation has a "right" to exist. Nation states are the problem, and I'm all for breaking down borders. The geopolitical ramifications of developments like that are slow and tedious, but Germany is one state again, and the EU is a union of states that seems to have a head start on the dollar... They've gotten rid of lots of currenies... kaput... like that. Some states broke apart (Yugoslavia), but the reasons which tore them apart seem so barbaric as to embarass and confuse the rest of the world and the citizens of the former nation states. As the world consciousness expands (culturally and economically), fear grows (religion)... Hence Bush's stupid statement "They hate our freedoms," and I would guess that some really do, evident in the rights of women in Pakistan/Talibani Afghanistan (or lack thereof), or the yacking right wing extremists do when they say the Constitution was founded on the Bible... I'm guessing that's code for "a woman's place is at home" In the end, we are at a crossroads where we choose one path towards secular free living on one hand, or the other path that leads to religious nationalism and fear on the other. Theocracy is nigh. I for one choose secular living. Amen to that.

[bhikkhu]

31. Amen to the secular life.

LOL, thanks for that.

But seriously, hizbollah has less to do with the nation-state of Lebanon and more to do with the independent defense of a regional identity . War is a problem of human history regardless of borders, and perhaps it is the definition of borders that allows stable peace? In this case numerous longstanding geographical predicaments (oil, water, arable land) seem to converge toward war, with both sides heavily armed and funded and armed by interested external parties. That the destruction might be more complete.

Neither interested parties nor their bloodied proxies are blameless - war is a contest between idiots, not the contest between good and evil. As long as we imagine one side may win we partake of the illusion.

[heliarc]

33. Borders were a compromise IMHO...

Otto von Bismark imagined a Germany unified by language, as did Joan of Arc long before him ... The realities of the Nation state as you say do not have much to do with war at all, and my point is the idiocy and retrogression of defining the state by ideology or religious practice. That is ASKING for WAR... You are exactly right that Hizbollah is not part of the nation state of Lebanon. They are just as dissociated from the state of Lebanon as the Palestinians are dissociated from the state of Israel... and if Israel was a truly secular organization with serious intentions of protecting the homeland it wouldn't be excluding those who care about it just as much as they do albeit in different ways and through different rituals. And in their inclusion of all, they'd present the greatest defense of their nation state. There'd be no argument against it. Their greed and fear as a country is bringing on the conflict of regional and religious identity that begets feudalism. You are very very right. Neither interested party is blameless. That is why both parties need to recognize the odd and heretical ideal that Otto von Bismarc did so long ago... He was able to see the similarities of peoples who all spoke different Germanic modes of the language, and he was able to communicate the value of allying their interests as one people. The resultant pride that created is a whole other fearful history, but the significance of this "nation" building is the "original recipe," that should be referenced here when approaching the problems of the holy lands. You can't rule it by laying claim to the only interpretation of the land's precious value. That goes for Hizbollah too, but they weren't the original invaders in the 1920s and 30s now were they? Doesn't matter because the Israelis look back to thousands of years of repression to gauge their righteousness. They all deserve that pitiful strip of desert. They should all have it together. And that is Israel's cross to bear IMHO.

[Miss Chybil]

29. That's so "old school," pre-9/11 thinking.

Geez. Who reads that stuff anymore? Let's all just bomb people!

/sarcasm

[FlavaKreemSnak]

20. Would it be the same if he said it about Saudi Arabia?

I mean do you think people in America and in Europe would be as mad if somebody wrote exactly the same thing about Saudi Arabia and said they have these laws and policies that are so awful and then act like they are above it all because of these places there that are holy for Muslims?

Maybe it is not a good example but I was trying to think of one that would be close, because if you think about it, if somebody wrote an article that said Norway doesn't have the right to exist, I think most people would be like "huh? whatever" and just say the person was nuts and if they wrote it in a paper in like the Netherlands or something we would probably not even hear about it unless maybe there was a Jeannie Most piece about it on CNN with interviews with some Norwegians who were mad.

[D-Notice]

32. Israel never had

the "right to exist". No country has a "right to exist".

[heliarc]

35. Exactly!

What nation has the right to exist??? People have rights not countries!!!

[IntiRaymi]

36. Does England have a right to exist?

Or has it created its niche via imperialist actions, and outright subjugation and abuse of its immediate neighbors?

On edit: Crap grammar.

[stepnw1f]

39. Well He Did Say "No Country"

So I guess he included his own country in that statement.

[Spinoza]

40. To those posters who

Israel has no right to exist as an explicitly 'Jewish' state or that Israel is somehow similar to Apartheied South Africa, please explain the difference between Israel as a self-proclaimed 'Jewish' state and Iran and Saudi Arabia as self-proclaimed 'Islamic' states. The 'Jewish' state has no right to exist but 'Islamic' states do? (In Saudi Arabia non-muslims are not even allowed to live in certain cities. In Iran most Jews were expelled in 1948 and almost all of the balance in 1957.)

The nonsense that Israel is in any way similar to Apartheid South Africa, which defined ones ENTIRE legal and non-legal status and rights based on BIRTH is wholly incorrect. The ONLY distinctions under Israeli law between Jews and non-Jews are:

1) Jews may claim immediate citizenship under the 1948 'Law of Return'. Non-Jews may still become Israeli citizens but they must first satisfy a 4 year residency and procedural requirement. About 1 milion Arabs are Israel citizens and their are Arabs in the Knesset)
2) Only Jews are subject to a draft in the IDF. Non-Jews may serve in the army as volunteers, but are not drafted.

Thats it, folks.

The basis for the founding of modern Israel was never 'biblical prophecy'. (Of course it is true that SOME religious Jews --and even more religious non-Jews-- did and do believe in the 'divine right' of Israel.) Theodore Herzl, the founder of modern Zionism and of the Zionist movement wrote explicitly what was the basis for the establishment of modern Israel--anti-Semitism. Herzl wrote in the founding document of modern Zionism, "The Jewish State" (Der Judenstatt) published in 1896.

"...Vain to seek obscurity. They say the coward, he is creeping into hiding driven by his evil conscience. Vain to go among them and offer them one's hand. They say: why does he take such liberties with his Jewish pushfulness? Vain to keep faith with them as a comrade-in-arms or a fellow citizen. They say: he is Proteus, he can assume any shape or form. Vain to help them strip off the chains of slavery. They say: no doubt he found it profitable. Vain to counteract the poison.....
We are a PEOPLE, ONE people. We have everywhere tried honestly to integrate with the national communities surrounding us and to retain only our faith. We are not permitted to do so. In vain do we exert ourselves to increase the glory of our fatherlands by achievemts in art and science and their wealth by our contributions to commerce. We are denounced as strangers. If only they would leave us in peace. But they will not. THEY WILL NOT.....Over the centuries, over the millenia, everything has been tried. There is only one solution left. The Jewish state must be reborn....."

Posters are confusing the concept of a 'Jewish' state with the religion of Judaism. The Jews, based upon thousands of years of self-identification and thousands of years of identification by others are a PEOPLE, most of whom, but not all, practice the religion of Judaism. There are Jewish atheists. There are even Jewish Christians. (What do you think 'Jews for Jesus' are?) The Jews have as much right to a state as the French or the English or the Americans. Or explain exactly why they don't?

[Name removed]

44. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[davidinalameda]

45. he simply copied the headline from the article

this is LBN; that's one of the rules for this forum

[burythehatchet]

46. Agreed, my error, I'm gonna alert on Haaretz!

apologies to BTA

[barb162]

49. "This is a classic anti-Semitic manifesto,

which cannot even disguise itself as criticism of Israel," said Professor Dina Porat, head of the Stephen Roth Institute for the Study of Contemporary Anti-Semitism and Racism at Tel Aviv University."

That says it all.