Israel Asks U.S. to Ship Rockets With Wide Blast

[Rose Siding]

Israel has asked the Bush administration to speed delivery of short-range antipersonnel rockets armed with cluster munitions, which it could use to strike Hezbollah missile sites in Lebanon, two American officials said Thursday.

The request for M-26 artillery rockets, which are fired in barrages and carry hundreds of grenade-like bomblets that scatter and explode over a broad area, is likely to be approved shortly, along with other arms, a senior official said.

But some State Department officials have sought to delay the approval because of concerns over the likelihood of civilian casualties, and the diplomatic repercussions. The rockets, while they would be very effective against hidden missile launchers, officials say, are fired by the dozen and could be expected to cause civilian casualties if used against targets in populated areas.
...
State Department officials “are discussing whether or not there needs to be a block on this sale because of the past history and because of the current circumstances,” said the senior official, adding that it was likely that Israel will get the rockets, but will be told to be “be careful.”

http://www.nytimes.com/2006/08/11/world/middleeast/11military.html?hp&ex=1155355200&en=4887d0ebeb1cdf33&ei=5094&partner=homepage

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

1. I have tried to avoid this issue but...

Israel seems like it is out of control.

[Zhade]

47. The white phosphorous and indiscriminate bombing of innocents...

...kinda underlined that thought for me.

[Name removed]

80. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LostinVA]

103. Yup... that's about it

[Barkley]

114. Write-on Tesha!

Thanks

[saigon68]

137. OOPS Au revoir

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=193187

[jpkenny]

84. Only because the US and no other country will respond to their war crimes.

I can't understand why the other Arab nations will not come to the aid of Lebanon.

[emald]

89. not out of control, very much under control

of the neocon aipac coalition. This little skirmish looks like the opening to war with Iran and Syria to me. I will be surprised if it goes the way of past battles and dissapears into a stalemate again. No, *ushit is going to take us into war against Iran, against Syria and soon it seems.
fuckers.

[Say_What]

133. Out of control on your tax dollars!!

Your tax dollars at work. :puke:

<clips>

During the Bush administration, from 2001 to 2005, Israel has actually received
more in U.S. military aid than it has in U.S. arms deliveries. Over this time period
Israel received $10.5 billion in Foreign Military Financing – the Pentagon’s biggest
military aid program – and $6.3 billion in U.S. arms deliveries. The aid figure is
larger than the arms transfer figure because it includes financing for major arms
agreements for which the equipment has yet to be fully delivered. The most prominent of
these deals is a $4.5 billion sale of 102 Lockheed Martin F-16s to Israel. “When it comes
to getting arms from the U.S., Israel has money in the bank,” noted Hartung

http://66.102.7.104/search?q=cache:yvV-4o_eXLEJ:www.worldpolicy.org/projects/arms/reports/israel.lebanon.FINAL2.pdf+israel+%2B%22us+military+support%22&hl=en&gl=us&ct=clnk&cd=1

[Name removed]

134. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Kutjara]

2. Pardon me if I missed the memo, but aren't...

...cluster bombs meant to be used on airfields, highways and other large-area targets, to deny the infrastructure to the enemy? I thought there were some international laws prohibiting their use in predominantly civilian areas. Maybe I imagined it, so much of the world seems like a bad dream these days.

[Solo_in_MD]

5. Its also used against artilery sites, including Katyusha launchers

The M26 is the rocket load for the MLRS. Unlike the Katyusha system, its fairly accurate, about like that of most other artilerly. One of its primary uses is counter battery fire, which is to say, shooting at the other guys artilery. From a tactical perspective, this is an ideal use of the MLRS and the M-26.

I am not getting into the issues associated with cluster munitions in built up areas (which is clearly a concern), but this does make good tactical sense.

[Kutjara]

6. Thanks for the heads up.

At least there's a tactical reason for deploying it, not just bloodthirsty insanity.

[The Stranger]

10. No, Israel's cluster munitions have already massacred innocents.

And the M-26 has anti-personnel capability, exploding into over 600 bomblets capable of killing hundreds of innocent civilians over a wide area.

http://www.canadiandemocraticmovement.ca/displayarticle903.html

Israel has used artillery-fired cluster munitions in populated areas of Lebanon, Human Rights Watch said today. Researchers on the ground in Lebanon confirmed that a cluster munitions attack on the village of Blida on July 19 killed one and wounded at least 12 civilians, including seven children. Human Rights Watch researchers also photographed cluster munitions in the arsenal of Israeli artillery teams on the Israel-Lebanon border.

"Cluster munitions are unacceptably inaccurate and unreliable weapons when used around civilians," said Kenneth Roth, executive director of Human Rights Watch. "They should never be used in populated areas."

According to eyewitnesses and survivors of the attack interviewed by Human Rights Watch, Israel fired several artillery-fired cluster munitions at Blida around 3 p.m. on July 19. The witnesses described how the artillery shells dropped hundreds of cluster submunitions on the village. They clearly described the submunitions as smaller projectiles that emerged from their larger shells.\

. . . .

Human Rights Watch believes that the use of cluster munitions in populated areas may violate the prohibition on indiscriminate attacks contained in international humanitarian law. The wide dispersal pattern of their submunitions makes it very difficult to avoid civilian casualties if civilians are in the area. Moreover, because of their high failure rate, cluster munitions leave large numbers of hazardous, explosive duds that injure and kill civilians even after the attack is over. Human Rights Watch believes that cluster munitions should never be used, even away from civilians, unless their dud rate is less than 1 percent.

[Solo_in_MD]

11. No what?

- The MLRS is designed for quick reaction counter battery fire

- The M-26 does dispense submunitions

- Submmunitions are the best way tactically to destroy open artillery sites or other soft (i.e. not armored/bunkered) targets.

One can contest their use in built up areas, just as one can contest the use of built up areas as launching sites. I have little doubt that Hezbollah would launch bomblet at Haifa is they had.

[Kagemusha]

17. Civilians are the ultimate soft target.

It's a recipe for some impressive disasters really.

[ThomCat]

78. That's a hypothetical defense against a real attrocity.

[Evergreen Emerald]

81. that is the kind of rhetoric that is continuing this war

"One can contest their use in built up areas, just as one can contest the use of built up areas as launching sites. I have little doubt that Hezbollah would launch bomblet at Haifa is they had."

So, my neighbor makes noise all night waking the neighborhood. Does that mean that because he would do something stupid, I could/should too?

It is time to stop the killing. No matter who started it.

[The Stranger]

83. "Contesting" repeatedly does not hide the illegality and indefensibility

of Israel's actions. Bombing innocent civilians with cluster munitions -- WHOSE MILITARY DESCRIPTION INCLUDES ANTI-PERSONNEL PURPOSES -- IS A WAR CRIME.

THESE ARE INDEFENSIBLE ACTIONS.

THESE ARE INEXCUSABLE ACTIONS.

[emald]

90. war crimes are pretty common now days

and they aren't going away. Indefensible and Inexcusable? You, friend, are yelling "fire" after the fire has destroyed the barn. Any bomb is an affront to the human race; every bullet fired kills human beings. It's all a war crime.

[The Stranger]

92. Are you proposing we stop prosecuting war crimes?

Are you trying to excuse the mass murder of nearly 1000 innocent civilians, one-third of whom were children?

[ShortnFiery]

124. "Bombing innocent civilians with cluster munitions ... IS A WAR CRIME"

I guess by that fluid logic that it was not OK for Our Coalition Troops to use the Helicopter Machine Guns on Individual Insurgents on the ground? :eyes: Such action literally cuts your enemy in half - one by one :puke: ... cruel and brutal beyond belief and comparable to cluster munitions.

ALL waring parties are guilty of some of the most heinous crimes against humanity. Israel is getting most of the censor because they have the capacity to spread the carnage on an exponential scale in comparison to their rag-tag, but at times, deadly enemy. I hang my head in shame because of War Crimes my beloved Country has committed in my name. :cry: When I was a young woman, I believed all the Positive Spin about America The Beautiful ... I ONCE believed that America served the world as a true beacon of compassion and humanity. Those days are long gone. :(

[Tom Joad]

8. It is international law, but Israel and the United States have decided

such things do not apply to them.

[Behind the Aegis]

18. Apparently so has Hizb'allah.

[Zhade]

46. Duh. Hezbollah is a terrorist group.

Israel's supposed to be above such criminality, but if this conflict has shown one thing, it's that Israel cannot be expected to be.

[Behind the Aegis]

48. Why should they?

Fighting on an uneven political and regional field, I guess Israel will do what it needs to do to survive and protect its citizens...much to the chagrin of the world.

[Zhade]

50. So you support war crimes and the killing of innocents?

Okay, chief. My conscience dictates better for me.

[Behind the Aegis]

52. Did I say that?

:eyes:

[Zhade]

54. No, you just used the "ends justify the means" argument.

As such, it's clear you find the indiscriminate bombing of civilians acceptable, ergo you by default support the war crimes Israel is committing.

Take up any argument with that with yourself, since you're the one who asked why Israel should be expected to be above criminality.

[Behind the Aegis]

56. Why am I not surprised you would think that?

No. I asked why Israel should be held to a different standard than her enemy. Nice parsing, though! Dead Israelis? Who gives a shit? Isn't that what YOU are saying?*


*(I know it's not, so why are you trying to say something I didn't say?)

[Zhade]

58. Parsing? You're spinning.

I said Israel is supposed to be above criminality. You asked "why should they?" That's pretty clear to me.

If you want to put Israel on the same level as a terrorist group to avoid some kind of mythical double-standard (that doesn't exist precisely because the two are not on the same moral plane, expecting a state to be better than a terrorist group), that's your call. I wouldn't put Israel on the same footing as a terrorist group, though. I expect better of them, but am not seeing it here.

(As far as Israelis go: civilians - give a shit. IDF - not so much, feel more pity than sadness for them, due to being forced to kill harmless civilians by the rightwing Israeli government.)

[Violet_Crumble]

141. Yep, it was a clear argument that Israel should ignore international law..

And as such is something that's just as disgusting to see at DU as someone justifying Hezbollah's actions by saying 'why should they? it's not like Israel or the US are above criminality!!'

[The Stranger]

85. Try to stay focused here: Israel is violating international law -- it has

nothing to do with her enemies or the price of tea in China.

And you don't seem to be denying that Israel is violating international law, only trying to dodge and muddy the waters by talking about other entities.

[Bretttido]

106. Apparently, it's OKAY to lower your morals to that of your enemies

So if THEY torture babies, its fair game for US to torture babies. :sarcasm:

[plasticsundance]

88. Let's get our timeline straight

In the current conflict, Hezbollah started firing rockets at civilian populations after Israel invaded and caused civilian suffering and casualties.

[Violet_Crumble]

140. I don't recall Hezbollah wanting to get hold of cluster bombs...

Did I miss that bit in the article?

[Ragin1]

23. While signing that treaty

Israel did qualify the extent of thier intended uses with a signing statement. Everyone knows signing statements are where laws/treaties are created.

[The Stranger]

3. And the war crimes keep on coming.

[CoffeeCat]

4. Why is information like this so public?

Doesn't it strike anyone as odd that BushCo lies and covers up EVERYTHING. However, the information
about our country providing WMDs to Israel--has been issued to the media for dissemination.

It's like BushCo is attempting to drag us into a major war.

It's like they're attempting to let everyone blame the United States for the ensuing, evil, heartbreaking civilian casualties that
will happen.

It's as if they're attempting to spark unprecedented rage for the United States.

Also...It's as if they're attempting to ignite protests--inside the United States.

[et in Arcadia ego]

9. More like..

"Also...It's as if they're attempting to ignite protests--inside the United States."

I think it's more like they're trying to establish complicity of the US Citizens in the US Government's ghoulery, ie: Hey, we're doing this for YOU guys..Come on, pull up a chair and check it out with us..Check out what these bugs do when we rip their legs off, heh..

:eyes:

[Zhade]

49. I think it's pretty clear they're baiting the Arab/Muslim countries...

...to goad them into lashing out at Israel for committing war crimes, thus expanding the conflict.

[soothsayer]

94. Trying to draw in Iran

[HuffleClaw]

120. they WANT the public to know

its part of their increasingly desperate attempts to goad syria into ANY sort of military response. at this point ONE syrian could fire a spitball into israel and they'd find a reason to use it to justify war.

[Journeyman]

7. Decades ago, Calvin Trillin lamented how difficult it has become. . .

to be a satirist in America. He was flummoxed by the Reaganauts' decision to protest the presence of Soviet advisors in Cuba by staging an invasion of ourselves at Guantanamo Bay. "How can you satirize this nation," he asked, "when reality is so far beyond anything a humorist might imagine."

And so it's no surprise to read such balderdash: ". . .it (is) likely that Israel will get the rockets, but will be told to be “be careful.”"

[Tom Joad]

12. If politicians listened to common sense, and not AIPAC, we'd all be

in better shape.
www.stopAIPAC.org

[Name removed]

13. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Roy]

14. Is this person for real???????

Do people actually think like this???

WOW!!!

[Name removed]

22. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

24. lessening the casualties with "More Precise Killing" ?

So now you can precisely Kill a few more Islamo Facists in their nests.

How about the Fascists "dropping" the cluster bombs?

Oh no, they are just defending themselves, by destroying another country.

[ShrewdlyDone]

27. They are not destroying another country...

Look spin away but hezbollah started this conflict this time.

I am not giving israel a free pass by any means. But I am not going to stand back and say go ahead and attack them either.

Precise munitions save lives in the end. IT is a WAR. It was started by Hezbollah. A non governmental entity since the lebanese government refused to enforce the rule of law in its own nation it has been thrust into this conflict.

Sad, but irrelevant since they refuse to do anything about it even now. They say they MIGHT try to enforce their own laws and send 15000 troops IF israel pulls out... hell they could have done that at ANY TIME years ago or even now...

Without the rule of law there is no possibility for governance and we have the chaos we see today in the middle east.

However, back to the more direct point. Israel will defend themselves. They will destroy as many rocket lauchers as neccessary to protect their towns... and I personally would rather they use something that works precisely and effectively... than carpet bomb whole areas just to take out a single rocket.

As others have said above... cluster munitions are the best tool for the job in some circumstances... I would rather they use that than an even more blunt tool...

[Ragin1]

29. Without the rule of law there is no possibility for governance and we have

What a pathetic joke. Did Israel obey any kind of international law when they kept the fertile farms even after proclaiming their exit of Lebanon in 2000? Just the facts will do, not the talking points.

[ShrewdlyDone]

31. Yes they broke the agreement..

18 farms... EIGHTEEN FARMS!!!! are you freeking kidding me... You are going to start an international war over 18 farms they were probably going to give back anyway?

This is not some kids game... this is a long nasty conflict... The lebanese President and Cabinet abducated their responsibility to their nation by letting a conflict like this errupt.

18 farms... Well look what it has gotten them for 18 farms. Give me a break.

[saigon68]

33. 18 farms hmmm I wonder how you justify this?

[ShrewdlyDone]

34. Do you really want?

Me to pull up pictures of the soldiers that were killed in the first assault by hezbollah?

It is a war... Ask Hezbollah if they think that child died a martyr? A martyr to what cause?

[saigon68]

36. Go for it

[Zhade]

55. Soldiers. Not dead babies.

Fact: the incident that started this mess involved terrorists and soldiers. Israel's response? Bomb civilians.

[emald]

93. nice. gotta say, using pictures of dead children to make your point

is despicable. Just like hezzbollah. 2500 children die each day due to hunger, so I've read. So tell me, how do like your fucking lunch? People, children and adults, die each day in this stupid reality we call life from many causes. Plucking heart strings by using graphic pictures is pornography, and you sir, are a pornographer.

[Maribelle]

97. So - - you're saying its OK for Israel to try to make a point by

slaughtering innocent children, just don't show pictures of the point Israel is trying to make? Your logic is truly stunning.

[Ragin1]

39. 18 farms... EIGHTEEN FARMS!!!!

Who is attacking whom again? They must really want them.

[ShrewdlyDone]

41. Welp...

They are not going to get them now for a LONG LONG time.

The US has pressured Israel for years and had some serious success recently in changing the conflict in the middle east.

The pull outs of settlements and the building of the wall were incredibly good signs.. It was just a matter of time before Sheba Farms was taken care of too. But I can guarentee you since there is so much blood in this now... Lebanon has not a chance in hell of getting those things back for a super long time.

[Zhade]

57. The building of the wall was a good sign?

What planet do you live on? Have you seen the maps of the thing, how it snakes around water wells and cuts villages off from the outside world, not to mention cutting deeper into Palestinian land?

"Good sign". Good grief!

[ShrewdlyDone]

63. Look

There are sections that are stupid yes. There are sections that are just more land grab yes. But the idea of a barrier to keep these two parties apart for a bit and try to let things cool down.. is admirable IMO.

To quote frost... Good Fences Make Good Neighbors.


(And don't ask me about the fence with mexico... you really don't want to hear that response :) )

[Zhade]

66. "There are sections that are stupid yes." That's more honest than a lot...

...of the pro-Israel people here can be. You actually admit some of the wall is bad. They refuse to admit that.

[ShrewdlyDone]

70. Thats because

I am not "Pro-Israel".

It depends on the circumstances who I am for or against....

[GreenArrow]

77. to quote Frost again,

and to hone in on the point of his poem:

"Something there is that does not love a wall."

[Tyrone Slothrop]

109. Have you ever actually read Frost?

Or the poem in question? ("Mending Wall")

If you have, I hardly think you'd be using that quotation.

'He only says, "Good fences make good neighbors."
Spring is the mischief in me, and I wonder
If I could put a notion in his head:
"Why do they make good neighbors? Isn't it
Where there are cows? But here there are no cows. 30
Before I built a wall I'd ask to know
What I was walling in or walling out,
And to whom I was like to give offence.
Something there is that doesn't love a wall,
That wants it down!"'

The narrator doesn't see any point in the wall and, in fact, thinks it makes their situation worse; but neighbor just keeps repeating his father's line "good fences make good neighbors" without really giving it any further or deeper thought. Kind of like you just did.

Frost's entire point of that poem is that there's no good reason for the artificial division between their land.

[lumpy]

96. Israel has been messing with Lebanon

since 1978 and have continued to do so since then. Israel should have gotten way the hell out of Lebanon when they were supposed to get completely out in 2000. Land grabbing has caused Israel to have it's own headache. 18 pieces of farmland against the capture of 2 Israeli soldiers is reason to bomb the hell out of Lebanon to start an international war? You blame the Lebanonese for this ongoing conflict. Fah! Israel should have gotten completely the hell out of Lebanon and created their 'buffer zone' in their own territory instead of using and abusing Lebanon. And they expect the US to change their messy diapers.

[Thickasabrick]

100. 18 farms? What about starting a war over the kidnapping of

2 soldiers.

If two mexican drug lords kidnapped 2 american security guards on the border - would it be appropriate to bomb the civilian Mexican border towns?

[saigon68]

30. A more blunt tool is a bullet to the brain

But that notion is hardly new

Kind of like this blunt tool.

[varkam]

35. "Precise munitions save lives in the end."

Except those of the people underfoot.

[saigon68]

37. Lots of people being Trampled Underfoot these days

Apparently to the glee of the Corporate profiteers and toothless racists.

[ShrewdlyDone]

38. Yup just like this...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gyHQFyO_fu4&mode=related&search=

So nice of Hezbollah to hide in a home to fire their rockets from...

So nice of them to use the people in that home as a human shield..

But guess what ... the inevitable destruction of that house.. and all the dead in it.. is called a "military neccessity". Since it became a military target because it was firing rockets from it.. it is covered under the geneva conventions.

BTW, so you know... NOTHING Hezbollah has done is covered under the geneva conventions... not one thing.

WHY???? Because the lebanese government said "We have no idea this was going to happen" in the initial attacks.."We denounce these attacks"...

Well if you denounce them... break out some troops and restore order in your country... oops never gonna happen huh?

[varkam]

40. I know that there are arguments to be made on both sides of the coin...

I know that both sides each have what they perceive to be trespasses committed against them. I know that both sides feel justified in what it is that they are doing.

I also know that, for individuals who hold a healthy respect for life, the point is simply that it should stop. The point is not who is right and who is wrong. It is not a matter of who started it. It is not a matter of who is more "evil". It is a matter of ceasing the violence, and not a matter of justifying it.

To such an end, individuals like that might find arguments such as "precise munitions save lives in the end" dishearteningly ironic.

[ShrewdlyDone]

42. Talk to anyone in their 70s....

I have been told so many times we are so coddled when it comes to war. Wars are hell. They are destruction that make chaos look orderly.... but the current wars horrific as they are.... are actually better than what we have had in the past.

We will fight, others will fight, and wars will always be fought..

As I said in another reply... not even in the time of Christ himself did wars stop. Wars have happened from the birth of humanity... and are shown in many of the oldest human fossil records we have.. Wars happen.

So I take the approach that this is gonna happen... and if it is going to happen... let it happen as cleanly as possible.

[varkam]

44. Whether or not war is inevitable...

has nothing to do with whether or not wars should happen or whether or not war is morally right.

In addition, I have some trouble with your statement that wars are "better" now. Are they more humane? Is it "better" to be blown up by a laser-guided missile than it was to be bludgeoned to death with a club? Is it "better" to be shot to death with the latest in modern technology as opposed to being hacked in two by a scimitar? Somehow, I fail to see your point.

[ShrewdlyDone]

45. Consider the age old tactic of carpet bombing....

and then consider the videos we have of taking out a rocket installation that is on the roof of a 25 story building... and leaving the building still standing... only damaged on the top few floors. Then you might understand what I am talking about.

[varkam]

60. People still die, no?

Regardless of the tactic, death is still the result.

Regardless of how "smart" these weapons are, human fallibility and error still plays a magnificently large role. These bombs may be able to better find their targets than the carpet bombing of old, but human hands still give them wings.

Further, why should you be fine with my death if Hizbollah militants set up shop one floor above me without my knowledge or consent? Is it my fault because of where I live? Or perhaps it is my fault because I'm not doing enough to challenge the popular thought among my friends, co-workers, and family.

[ShrewdlyDone]

64. It is your governments fault

For not enforcing the rule of law in your area.

Hezbollah does not represent the people of lebanon. The government there has denounced Hezbollah for its attack on israel... yet they do nothing about it... odd huh?

But in the end... it is Hezbollah that is firing out of civilian areas... hence using human shields.

Wishing it away... hoping it away... or dreaming of the day of no war... is not my way.

I see things very practically. If it is a fairy tale concept... I don't buy it.

[Zhade]

67. Look into Lebanon's military. It's not that they won't.

It's more like they can't.

[varkam]

69. I do not dream of a day of no war.

I realize that war is a reality, but at the same time I realize that, as I mentioned previously, that does not make war moral or right.

It seems to be that claiming Hizbollah is using human shields just cheapens those deaths, and lays them squarely at the feet of Hizbollah when it was Israel that launched the blow. Don't misunderstand me, I'm not saying that Hizbollah is blameless - neither side is. Both sides have blood on their hands.

I know that there are individuals who are more intelligent and know more about this situation than I do. I know war is incredibly complex and I don't pretend to have the answers for it's successful resolution. However, it seems to me to laying the blame entirely on to one group of people completely misses the underlying causes and grievances that both sides have and does nothing to further any sort of productive discussion.

Further, if the smart bombs were indeed so "smart", why are so many civilians dying? You can't talk about the amazing accuracy of these weapons and then say that civilians are dying because Hizbollah is firing from civilian areas. In other words, you can't have it both ways.

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[varkam]

73. The point that I'm trying to make

is how does that make civilian casualities, or for that matter any casualities at all, acceptable?

And yes, I have watched the history channel. However, the history channel is not my primary source for historical and philosophical context when it comes to conflict.

[plasticsundance]

95. Stop the MSM propaganda

Whatta are you from the DLC come to save us? The creation of Hezbollah grew out Israel's first invasion of Lebanon. In 1982, there were several Lebanese groups responding to Israel's invasion and they started to work together, but by 1985 these groups formed and went under the umbrella of the term Hezbollah. They kicked Israel out of Lebanon, and this drew many in Lebanon to respect and in some cases support Hezbollah. The current attacks in Lebanon as only widen support of Hezbollah in Lebanon and even across the Arab and Muslim world.

It is very much the same way Hamas came into existence. Israel can't seem to wrap its head around the fact that their over handed tactics keep exacerbating the problem. Perhaps, Israel doesn't care. Perhaps it's part of Israel's strategy. And please spare us the CNN timeline of events. There have been skirmishes on both sides of the fence. Israel is holding thousands of Lebanese, and one I understand is a secular Druze that was arrested because of his support of the Palestinian cause.

[Amonester]

118. "let it happen as cleanly as possible." - Until?

Until Planet Earth will be wiped "cleanly" of the human race? The concept of war (and war itself) in the 21st century, never worked, doesn't work, and will never work.

"Try" something that works...

[saigon68]

43. "dishearteningly ironic" sums up my feelings precisely

I have PERSONALLY seen too much death and destruction.

Nothing smells worse than human corpses which have laid out in the hot jungle for several days

Unlike many of the keyboard Commandos here, it still troubles me at night

which is why I waste my time here until I am too tired to stay awake.

THE SMELL, NOT THE SIGHTS WERE THE WORST AND THE MEMORY THAT STAYS THE LONGEST


We need peace in the world.

[leftchick]

61. you said that well saigon

:)

[lumpy]

99. Saigon, the reality and input you present is

very much appreciated by so many on this board.

[KurtNYC]

121. I value your perspective also

There is no substitute for experience.

[Zhade]

62. Actually, those "necessities" are considered war crimes...

...under international law, and thus are only covered in the section of the Geneva Conventions marked "things for which the leaders of the countries committing such are to be hung for".

[lumpy]

98. Prove there were people in that house.

So nice of the IDF to hide in airplanes to kill people who LIVE in houses.

[Tom Joad]

116. Israel has stated EVERYONE in South Lebanon is a target.

Hezbollah has cheap rockets so its targets are not precise, but it too targets civlians. Israel is killing TEN TIMES as many civilians.

Israel is targeting all in South Lebanon, as stated by its own (in)Justice Minister.
http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/07/28/wmid28.xml

[Zhade]

53. Your facts are wrong. Lebanon had no way to police Hezbollah.

They don't even have much of an army, which makes it kind of hard to disarm a terrorist group, especially when a fair percentage of law enforcement in southern Lebanon is sympathetic to the group.

If you'll notice, the cease-fire proposals call for international troops to help with disarming Hezbollah. Ever asked yourself why? The lack of a real army.

[ShrewdlyDone]

65. If I am wrong... then they are lying.

Check it out...

http://news.scotsman.com/international.cfm?id=1152332006

"A new UN resolution, the third in as many days, is being readied for a vote tomorrow that could end Israeli air strikes and see its forces hand over to a 15,000-strong force of the Lebanese army."

Or any other source, just check the news. Where was this 15,000 strong force of the Lebanese army when Hezbollah started this mess? Where was the Lebanese governments mandate to stop the attacks against Israel? Non existant? WHy? And why now? Simple... because they are getting their butt kicked, and need to get off their butt and do something.

[varkam]

74. I don't know if this has crossed your mind...

but 15,000 is not a very large number, especially not in a country with some 3.8 million people. We have roughly seem same proportion of troops / civilians in Baghdad, and you see how well that's turning out.

[magellan]

25. If Israel truly wants to lessen casualties

...perhaps it should start using imprecise munitions like Hezbollah.

[Ragin1]

26. Hezbollah rocket launchers

Right where they should be when a foriegn nation attacks.

[ShrewdlyDone]

28. See there is the rub... Hezbollah started this.

[saigon68]

32. Apparently after the Zionists stole their lands.

Or at least that is the stated motivation off the Resistance Forces

[lumpy]

104. "See there is the rub...Hezbollah started

this" Dubya ?, I didn't know you posted on this board.

[Zhade]

51. Um, cluster bombs (or rockets) are hardly "precise".

They're pretty indiscriminate, which is a big part of why international law frowns on their use.

[ERF]

59. I for one agree with you, but you won't find an overwhelming

majority of people around here with similar views.

Supporting progressive policies and a world-view needn't mean turning one's back on the realities of the world in which we live. I wish it weren't so and war wasn't necessary or that it could be fought in an antiseptic manner where only soldiers got killed. But that is not reality.

Hezbullah has chosen a very strategic and specific tactic in this assymetrical war which puts their wives and children between themselves and their enemy. Their choice is strategically brilliant and they are winning as a result. Obviously their victory in ths situation is far more important than the lives being lost. Otherwise, they would not have chosen this tactic.

[Name removed]

68. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[ERF]

72. Absolutely correct. Hezbullah's money, equipment and

training are primarily Iranian in origin. That is a known factor. Their Shiite ties are one of the reasons the Sunni nations are keeping their distance.

The Iranians want nuclear weapons and they may well have orchestrated this as a bit of a distraction.

Of course a nuclear Iran, means a nuclear ME. With its current messianic president, we may very well see nuclear device exploded in Israel. Of course Iran would prefer to let its proxy do it. Yet another reason to do what it takes to defang Hezbullah.

[sendero]

86. And Israel's.....

..... primarily come from us. That is why we are now involved in the "terror war", and will be basically forever.

[lumpy]

111. So you would expect the Lebanese

to lie down and let Israel steal their land and lives without a fight? So what if that 'evil' country, Iran helps them in their struggle to remain free from Israel's arrogant infusion into their lives; lucky to have friends who sympathize. Look what has happened to Palestine, maybe the Lebanese don't want to end up a subjugated and enchained country.

[ERF]

123. Last time I checked, the democratically elected Lebanese

government had condemned Hezbullah's actions. Maybe you can enlighten me otherwise with clear evidence to the contrary.

[fordnut]

102. oh yeah my family members are like that

they drive me crazy I have alienated my self from them a lot

[LostinVA]

105. I suspect I'm glad I missed this one before it was deleted

[saigon68]

138. Au Revoir voyez-vous

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=user_profiles&u_id=193187

[ShortnFiery]

15. "This is where we get the title "radical"."

Too funny! Yes, we represent your Average "Intellectually Curious" Working American ... many of us are blessed to have broadband.

Yeah, we're the despicable Pajama-Hudeen. Who-Whaaa!

You know folks, it's so pathetic, yet the HITS just keep on coming. :eyes:

[Name removed]

16. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

21. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

19. Deleted sub-thread

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[Name removed]

20. Deleted message

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[0007]

75. ....and we wonder why were hated!

[Joe Bacon]

76. Remember, John Hagee is egging them on to use their nukes

Hagee and his Jesus Goon Squad want Armageddon right now!

Hagee is in for the shock of his life when JC pulls a no-show!

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[fordnut]

101. you know people like that is what brings the world down

why do people want to act that way

[plasticsundance]

79. The Israeli government are huge liars.

The NYTimes has already reported that Israel was using cluster bombs in Lebanon, in which Israel timidly admitted to after that report. Now read this interchange with the Israel Ambassador to the US. Read as he lies his ass off.

SAM HUSSEINI: Are you using cluster bombs in Lebanon?

DANIEL AYALON: No, we are not. We're not using anything which is not approved by the UN conventions and charters.

SAM HUSSEINI: Why did you bomb the electrical facilities in Lebanon?

DANIEL AYALON: Lebanon has electric capabilities, which is running. They have running water. We are not targeting any of the infrastructures. We could have done a lot of damage, which we're not doing, specifically because we're very much concerned about the humanitarian conditions over there.

more ...

Here's a picture of the little prick.

[lumpy]

115. Thanks Plasticsun

very interesting. Israel should pull their incompetent ambassador. He can't even lie with competence.
'Little prick' is right.

[Javaman]

82. Weeeeee! Another popcorn topic!!!

:popcorn:

Don't mind me, keep arguing about war. It's fun to watch a circler firing squad.

This topic as been so entertaining on here. :)

[ckramer]

91. Why don't they just use their own nukes and be done with it?

US should not give them bombs. It will make us murderers too.

[ERF]

142. The target is too close to Israel proper. If the wind

is blowing in the wrong direction, or it shifts, it could pollute Israel with vast amounts of nuclear fallout.

Besides, it would also lower the bar for the use of nuclear weapons. Israel is not currently faced with an existential threat nor (as inthe case of the US vs Japan) and invasion that will likely cost 500,000 lives.

Thus nuclear weapons are currently more of a deterrent for the nations of the region rather than the terrorist organzations.

[ckramer]

107. Their stupid new leader gets Israel into trouble!

Resign! Resign!

[ckramer]

108. Like Bush, the Israeli leader thought playing cowboy was fun!

Fool!

[ckramer]

110. Hello! If you take out the mortgage, don't expect other pays for you!

Finish the war you started, fool.

[LeftHander]

112. These are called Cluster Bombs.....

And it is a war crime to use them in urban areas.

[mom cat]

139. And they are tragically effective against children.

[Barkley]

113. Israel "asks"!!?!?!! try Israel 'demands' eom.

[ckramer]

117. Ship some US hookers to Israel

Let them feel some love!

[HuffleClaw]

119. 'be careful' ahhahhahahahaaa

nice justification.

[Spazito]

122. Disgusting, appalling but not surprising....

Israel is greatly diminished by their actions, imo. Both militarily and world opinion. The state of Israel has already lost this "battle" regardless of the eventual outcome.

[Name removed]

125. Deleted message

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[newspeak]

126. about eight years ago I attended

a Sunrise ceremony, where people gathered from all parts of the world--there was a medicine man there from Central America and stated that he saw a vision of the future and that there will come a time in most of our lives that you will have to make a choice--there will be no fence sitters--people of the earth and people not of the earth--I am reminded of it now-for the people of the earth, it is about making choices of peace, peace with the earth and peace with the people, and those not of the earth is the way of death. I see that now and understand what was met more than I did then. It's not a choice between Israel and Hezbollah, or Muslims against Christians--because in every group there are those who have empathy with people and the land--and the choice each one will make will be dependent upon that empathy over fear and hatred. You know, diplomacy is better than a gun barrel, but it takes both sides to agree on what will mutually benefit both sides.

Just wanted to share-----:-)

[msmcghee]

127. "The rockets, while they would be very effective . .

against hidden missile launchers, officials say, are fired by the dozen and could be expected to cause civilian casualties if used against targets in populated areas."

Yes, they are designed to take out missile launchers that are being use to fire missiles by the thousands (not dozens) - aimed specifically at civilian targets in Israel - not to take out Israel's offensive military capability.

People who start wars sometimes have to deal with the consequences of their actions.

[newspeak]

129. but it's not just people who start wars dealing with the consequences

is it? It's the innocent who also pay the price. Tell me, do we shrug our shoulders and say "well, that's war." Why would Israel bomb key infrastructures, such as water facilities, power grids? Is that not a direct attack on thousands of innocent civilians who are dependent on such grids to live? How about food storage facilities? One would think that Israel is creating genocide with their actions. Bombing bridges so aid could not get to civilians. "no one is right, when everyone is wrong." That includes Israel!!!! It depends who you listen to as to who started the war--the question is who is reasonable enough to end it?

[msmcghee]

130. You said, "but it's not just people who start wars . .

. . dealing with the consequences. It's the innocent who also pay the price."

Yes. That's why it is so important to enforce rules aginst initiating force agaonst others - as Hizbollah has done here. That's what leads to the death and destruction of innocents.

That's why it is so important to clearly understand this rule and enforce it using all available necessary force. That is what Israel is doing - because no-one else in the world cared enough.

Israel is destroying Hizbollah's ability to wage war against Israel and may well destroy most of southern Lebanon in the process. It is Hizbollah's fault that they placed those civilians in such mortal danger.

The sooner Israel finishes the job the sooner those civilians (who were not killed) will be able to start putting their lives back together. I hope there are no Hizbollah lives left to put back together for what they have caused.

[newspeak]

131. so, Israel is the savior

if there is an end to this and it is not escalated to include other countries, I will see if Israel stays within their boundaries or winds up acquiring new property. There is always some excuse for war--I mean Germany caught five soldiers on their border which of course, they killed to show the German people that Poland was encroaching on their boundaries--and Poland had an "evil" dictator that must be vanquished for the sake of the Polish people. Nothing is black and white---and Leo Strauss is Jewish, yet followed the same reasoning of Hitler. You might say, he was inspired by him--the same man who genocided Strauss' people.

[newspeak]

135. it's amazing how some blithely talk about the deaths

of those who are innocent as just a necessary part of the outcome. If you murder my child, my spouse, my parents, will I not seek revenge? Who will I blame? Will I blame Israel for murdering my family or will I blame Hezbollah for purportedly starting the aggression? Will I believe they started the aggression or only see Israel's part of it? Israel makes more enemies, the more they kill innocent civilians. There is no right in this war, and nothing you say can make me believe that one is more right than the other. For you blithely forget history and some actions taken by Israel especially against the Palestinians. I weep for Israel because I know that there are people in Israel who have always wanted peace with their neighbors, whose children play with Palestinian children, who dream of living together in peace--as there are Palestinians and Lebanese who have the same dream--but it will not come with forced "internment" camps, or walls to keep those within or the lack of justice on both sides. You have no Rabin or Golda Meir in Israel, just neo-cons who believe in the might of the sword--reminding some of us of those Zionists from earlier times who used terror, sometimes against their own people to attain their goals. I will wait to see how Israel handles this mess, but if they take any land from Lebanon, afterwards, if they continue to occupy afterwards, I will know their true intent--and, it will not be an honorable intent. If the war escalates to other countries, then I will know they follow the neo-cons here in a true PNAC agenda, an agenda that was premeditated long ago. There will be no excuses-for their intent will be visible by all.

[longship]

128. In other words, "More nukes for Israel"

nt

[ima_sinnic]

132. 1 bloody hand washing the other: US can't make bombs fast enough

for the barbaric war criminals. but the Bottom Line is glorious!!! this war is Big Bucks for the ghouls who profit from death and destruction, murder and mayhem.

[Megahurtz]

136. OMFG!!!!!

:wow: What the hell???

Why are we forced to put up with this!!!:banghead:

What if "We The People" do not approve???

Does anything matter anymore???

:puke: