Muslims shocked but sceptical over terror plot

[sabra]

http://www.irishexaminer.com/breaking/story.asp?j=234403745&p=z344x46x8&n=234404688&x=

Muslims shocked but sceptical over terror plot

Muslim groups today reacted with a mixture of shock and scepticism at the announcement by police that they had broken up a major terrorist plot to bomb airliners.

Khurshid Ahmed, a member of the Commission for Racial Equality in Birmingham where some of arrests took place, expressed relief that an attack had been foiled.

...

However Fahad Ansari of the Islamic Human Rights Commission said that many Muslims would be sceptical about the police statement.

In the past high profile arrests – such as the Forest Gate raid or the alleged plot to bomb Old Trafford football stadium – had failed to produce any evidence of terrorist activity.

...

He suggested that the raids could even have been timed to distract attention from the criticisms of the British government’s stance on the Lebanon crisis.

[Xenotime]

1. Muslims are just tired of getting the finger pointed at them.

[aquart]

10. Well, too bad about that.

But Christians, Jews, Hindus, Buddhists, Taoists, Wiccans, etc. seem so much less inclined to explode themselves in a crowd.

[unda cova brutha]

11. you are painting all muslims with a broad brush

as terrorists

[aquart]

41. Uh, your logic is a bit faulty.

Are any suicide bombers NOT Muslims? Think, was there a Christian accountant who strapped dynamite to his gut and detonated lately? Someone?

MOST Muslims are NOT terrorists. Absolutely true. (And don't forget Tim McVeigh and his non-Muslimness.) But the ones who blow themselves up in a way guaranteed to take other people with them, uh..........

See, lots of groups commit acts of terror. Like the Irish. Like the Stern Gang (I know you'll like that.) But the horror of not knowing if the guy sitting next to you on the bus will kill you when he kills himself.......give props to the Muslims. It's all theirs.

[Rex]

44. Japanese airmen were at one time the definition of suicide bombers.

No one group has a monopoly on violent suicide. Giving props, how ghoulish.

[muryan]

50. Japanese airmen

how long ago was that? We are in the here and now and hes certainly right. Radical islamists are solely to blame for this increasing trend of violence and terrorist acts.

[index555]

90. but the Japanese were attacking purely military targets

turning their planes into what was essentially a guided anti-ship missile . It is NOT the same thing as getting on a plane or a bus and blowing yourself up with random passengers.

[respublicus]

100. Suicide bombers are recruited to help in Israel's expansion strategy

Hamas was created by Israel - Palestine is totally infiltrated - it's all set up by US colonialist proxy as part of scheme to take over the oil and the world

[barb162]

101. Hamas was created by the leaders of Hamas ... all Muslims

and NOT by Israel. The rest of your post is also totally incorrect.

[Seeking Serenity]

104. sxnnnxx

:boring:

[index555]

105. Bwahahahaha

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl: :rofl:
That's the best joke I've heard yet!

[LetsGoMurphys]

139. what are u smoking and where can i get some? n/t

[iverglas]

106. gee, here's a funny thing

Are any suicide bombers NOT Muslims?

Are any suicide bombers NOT men?

MOST Muslims are NOT terrorists. Absolutely true.

MOST men are NOT terrorists. Absolutely true.

(And don't forget Tim McVeigh and his non-Muslimness.)

(So here we'll throw in the handful of women who have been suicide bombers in recent years in far-flung places. And hey ho -- lookie here:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Female_suicide_bomber
-- NON-MUSLIM suicide bombers.)

But the ones who blow themselves up in a way guaranteed to take other people with them, uh..........

Yeah, eh? Men. Scum, aren't they?

I know you agree with me. Even if *I* don't agree with me. Given as how I'm not an intellectually and morally impaired baboon, and all.

[hogwyld]

14. Are you some sort of Islamophobe?

What's your solution? Extermination of Muslims? Get real! You've bought into the * regime's propaganda that Islam = Bad, 'merka = good. We've killed a hell of a lot more people, and it's mighty convenient that this happened right after our nice win against the neocon lieberman.

[megatherium]

28. woulda been more convenient a week before the election. nt

[hogwyld]

38. Well, with the incompetence of the admin...

A few days late was the best they could manage.

[noonwitch]

39. At least I can vote, work and not have to wear a burka here!

I don't paint all of Islam with one brush, but it does seem that in countries where Islam is the majority religion, women are treated like shit. I am open-minded about my neighbors who may be from the middle east, but I am never going to join their religion.

Obviously, my solution isn't exterminating muslims, but one does have to recognize that there are a lot of faults in any system, and some big ones in muslim-run nations.

Name a middle eastern country, other than Israel and occupied Iraq and Afganistan (because the minute we leave those places, women will have no more rights), that allows women to vote. Saudia Arabia? Fat chance, they don't even let women drive cars there. Pakistan? Look at what happened to their first woman leader. And so on. So, yes, as a free, independent and proud female american, I will state clearly that our system is better than theirs.

[lumpy]

53. That's one good reason to bomb

the hell out of them? Right? Women in the US didn't get the right to vote until the year 1920. It wasn't that long ago in the timeline of history. Women will get voting rights in those countries if nations such as the US would quit using this as a tool for war and let the natural evolution of such rights prevail. It was, after all, the women's movement in the US that brought forth the 19th amendment to the Constitution. In fact, some women in the US had to be brought screaming and yelling to the thought of change in women's rights; those that were perfectly content to let the man assume the responsibility of their lives. For pete's sake, I still know women who are content to let men make all the decisions, even in the vote.

[plasticsundance]

65. DemocracyNow.org did an interview with Muslim feminists

And they too blame the US and Western Powers for the troubles in their lands. The rhetoric coming out of the West that it wants to liberate the ME and Muslim countries, these feminists and other liberal minded thinkers really don't want to hear. They know that the US and Western powers assisted the rise of Islamists by meddling and toppling their governments in the past and currently.

With all due respect, whenever I see such simple arguments of black and white as presented by your post, there's always a general lack of historical knowledge underlying them about role the foreign Western powers played in the ME and Muslim countries.

BTW, a quick quiz, how much advances do you feel were made on women issues in Afghanistan and Iraq, especially Afghanistan outside of Kabul? Do you know that Eygpt and Iran have feminist fighting for the rights of women in those countries?

[iverglas]

107. let's have a big hand for Roman Catholic Chile

Women got the ability to divorce their husbands there in the last year (and vice versa) ... despite the enormous effort mounted by the RC Church to prevent that from becoming law.

Now, when was it that women got the vote in Switzerland?

So, yes, as a free, independent and proud female american, I will state clearly that our system is better than theirs.

And the whole world cares.

I mean, especially all the women you obviously care so much about are so much better than. They really care about how proud you are.

[Lilith Velkor]

124. Syria, Turkey, Iran, Egypt and Jordan

...all allow women to vote. And it is incredibly hypocritical and dishonest to try to paint Pakistan as sexist for impeaching Bhutto when we in the US have never even had a woman president.

>I don't paint all of Islam with one brush, but it does seem that in countries where Islam is the majority religion, women are treated like shit.<

It seems like that because people mindlessly repeat stereotypes out of ignorance, like you just did.

>I am open-minded about my neighbors who may be from the middle east,<

HA!

>but I am never going to join their religion.<

Which one, Islam, Christianity, or Judaism?

[hogwyld]

130. How exactly is our system better?

I'll bet that they have a tiny fraction of the crime that we have. They (ME countries) don't go stomping around the world overthrowing governments, destroying ecologies, exploiting the less fortunate. We could certainly use some of their "uncivilized" customs here. Just because you are accustomed to our immoral, bankrupt culture, doesn't mean it is superior. Try traveling, and get to know the other cultures before you attack them.

[aquart]

40. Wow. Extrapolate much?

Where did I advocate extermination? HUH?

But do let me know when a Buddhist explodes in a crowded plaza.

Suicide bombers are a weapon of choice and the ones doing the choosing are a: Christian b: Jewish c: Hindu d: Wiccan e: Muslim f: Buddhist g: all of the above. WELL?

Yeah, they don't like it. But they EARNED it.

[lumpy]

60. Why is suicide bombing worse than

killing by missiles, snipers , raping and killing, or bombs dropped by planes?

[SKKY]

99. The truth hurts, doesn't it?...

...and some people just don't like to hear it. Well spoken...

[iverglas]

109. you really don't know much about much, do you?

But do let me know when a Buddhist explodes in a crowded plaza.

http://www.tamilnation.org/indictment/indict009.htm

It is twenty seven years today since the 4th International Conference Seminar of Tamil Studies took place in Jaffna viz on 10.01.1974. The whole of Jaffna peninsula was in a festival mood through out the period while the conference was taking place. All roads and lanes were decorated with Banana plants, coconut trees, casuarina branches etc. Pandals were erected on the roads and the traditional Thoranams were hung along the roads for miles and miles. People behaved as if a wedding was taking place in their own homes. I would call it a period of awakening of Tamil awareness.

... While remaining at the esplanade I saw the police shoot at the electric wires that fell on the crowd and nine innocent lives were lost on that night. ...

Those police, and their political masters, were Buddhists, my friend, and the atrocities they have committed in Sri Lanka against the Hindu community are something you might want to look into. (I know people who were there that day, myself.)

But then I guess attacking a crowd with high-voltage electrical wires is just more, oh, civilized than attacking a crowd with a bomb ...

That would be your point, right?

[hogwyld]

138. Ever hear of the Tamil Tigers??

They have a branch of their militia called the "Black Tigers" They are suicide bombers against the Sri Lankan govt. And the majority of the Tamils are "peaceful" Hindus.

[Name removed]

73. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hogwyld]

75. Real intelligent of you...

I am in the real world. You, sir, still see the U.S. as a benevolent force for good, and as a vital force in the world. The reality is we are hated worldwide, we are no longer the financial, moral superpower we once were. John Wayne is not coming to our rescue. We need cooperation from everyone, and we son't get that by doing it the cowboy way.

[index555]

91. only when they chant "DEATH TO USA"

The rest I would happily leave in peace.

[atreides1]

24. Given the right motivation

People are capable of doing anything!

Hindus in Kashmir seem inclined to blow up trains and Pakistanis in large groups

Jews(Israelis)don't seem to have a problem with dropping bombs and missiles on non-military targets
in Lebanon.

Christians, they just have a history of forcing people to convert and the executing them, burning people at the stake, and let's not forget that it was Christians who looked the other way when their Jewish neighbors were put on trains, never to be seen again. And that it was Christians who ran those trains and DEATH CAMPS.

As for the Buddhists, Taoists, and Wiccans, their religion is the only one that seem to practice the belief in peace.

So, while you are correct that Christians, Jews, and Hindus don't explode themselves in crowds, they have and still do kill other people.

[varun]

48. ummm....

...while I agree that Hindus can be violent, I disagree that Hindus have been blowing up Muslims and Pakistanis in Kashmir.

[GuillermoX71]

61. The Nazis

were more of a Pagan bent than Chrisitans. They were big believers in Astrology too.

Yes, many Christians in Nazi Germany looked the other way, but Hitler and his henchmen were not Christian, and neither was the Nazi movement.

[Cha]

118. Oooouuuh,

Astrology! :scared: :scared:

[0007]

32. cough cough! Can't believe that you made that statement.

[aquart]

42. Really. Was it untrue?

I don't feel a need to be delicate about the feelings of suicide bombers. I am, however, sorry that the Muslims who speak out against such behavior are not better supported by their communities.

BTW, what happens to Palestinians who advocate peace with Israel? Get back to me with that.

[hogwyld]

46. The Palestinian sellouts are punished

Because they are willing to give up someone else's land. As long as Israel refuses the Palestinians the right of return to their lands, the conflict will continue.

[muryan]

51. The rightful return of their lands?

Im fairly certain that jews had been in the area thousands of years before islam was even a religion and the palestinians even started to assert this claim.

[lumpy]

64. Certainly not those Jews who spent

generations establishing and living in other countries. Unfortunate that consideration was not given to Palestinians who lived in those lands for many many generations without benefit of living in other countries. Islam has nothing to do with it. The situation is somewhat comparable to the American Indian's plight, shuttled into reservations from lands they considered theirs. The difference is the fact that most Palestinians had deed to the land that they owned that eventually became useless. The similarity lies in the fact that the Palestinians have been taken from thier ancestral land and hurded onto 'relocation' camps and subjugated just as American natives.

[muryan]

68. The difference being that

native americans were alone on this continent when they were eradicated by europeans. People of jewish faith have lived in that area for a very very long time. By all accounts preceeding palestinians. The jews who lived in other areas of the world have claim to that land via their ancesters who settled in the area after their exodus from egypt.

[hogwyld]

72. So if I use your logic

I have a right to claim my ancestral land located under 10 Downing st? Palestinians had actual deeds, the jews didn't.

[muryan]

74. Dead people don't have deeds

Considering jews were almost wiped from the face of the earth. They got a freebee, and in my opinion it was the right thing to do.

[hogwyld]

76. Well, it's so nice of you

to voluntarily give up your home to the native americans that were almost wiped out due to our importation of smallpox and other diseases.

[muryan]

95. Im native american

thanks.

[index555]

93. they left on their own, why should Israel let them back?

They left in terror due to the Arab (False)propaganda about Irgun and Lehi raping the women after the Deir yassin "massacre",as well as listening to the (again Arab) propaganda they would be able to return to their homes after the ME countries killed all the Jews. and then instead of even attempting to integrate the Palestinians into their own countries, the ME countries left them huddled into refugee camps, usually while promising to destroy Israel.
The Arabs who stayed are still there.

[OrechDin]

114. Nasrallah has just told the Arabs in Haifa to flee their homes,

History indeed repeats itself.

[index555]

115. And they said they're not leaving.

So do you think they realize they will be probably treated better where they are now than if they left for some Arab country?

[hoboken123]

122. Funny how 100s of thousands of jews...

...got tossed out of arab countries in the same time period, yet I've heard no offer of compensation.

At Israel welcomed them, unlike the arab states.

[hogwyld]

128. If you were in your house between 2 warring parties

Would you just stay there waiting to be hit? Part of the Blitzkreig strategy was to create massive evacuations to clog the roads. Right of return has to be part of a comprehensive peace deal. It's only right.

[hoboken123]

129. Can't see it.

You leave your home and fight against your own country, where does the right to return come from?

Jordan stole all that Palestinian land in 1948, why not go there?

[OrechDin]

112. Well we live in the in the here and now.

We gotta look at who lives there now.Past injustices can not be corrected or maybe they can?

Should we go back to 20 yrs, 50yrs,100yr,200,500,2000,3000 ?

Are you gonna decide,should I pick the starting point?

Well its here and now that counts.

Better get moving on integrating and assimilating in the country your living in NOW,because times moving on and `right of return` ain't gonna happen.

[lumpy]

78. The Old Testament is'nt the best

history book in the world.

[index555]

94. true, but the accounts don't just include the old testament

n/t

[GuillermoX71]

62. As long as a Jew is breathing in

the Middle East, the conflict will continue.

The goal of Hamas/Hezbollah/Fatah et al is not to live side by side in peace with Israel, but to exterminate them.

[plasticsundance]

67. They do speak out against it.

You're saying things that just are not true. Even Iran gave us their support after 911. It's too easy to ignore what created this anger, and merely call them evil like Bush-the-Idiot-King and his minions.

As for Palestine, there are a whole range of issues that are not quite so simple as you ignore. Let's now give you a little quiz. Who shot Prime Minister Yitzhak Rabin of Israel? Answer below:

"Rabin, 72, had been the torchbearer for her husband's Israeli-Palestinian peace policies since he was shot to death in 1995 by a Jewish ultra-conservative who opposed the late prime minister's peacemaking efforts."

http://archives.cnn.com/2000/WORLD/meast/11/12/leah.rabin.02/

[ktlyon]

96. When you have no other way of delivering ordinance

strapping them to their bodies is their only resort.
When you have wealth and power there are many ways to attack someone. We have multi-million dollar planes and million dollar missiles and tanks and drones. What is the difference killing is killing.

[index555]

113. so why not attack military targets?

why attack busriders, people in clubs,bars etc.?
why not go after govt/military targets?
if they are the real oppressors then kill them , otherwise it's just murder for murder's sake.

[ktlyon]

126. not being one of them all I can think of is they consider

everyone their enemy and they are trying to instill fear in the people ie terrorism

[hogwyld]

127. You mean like we did

When we firebombed Dresden, dropped nuclear bombs on Japan? Thos strictly military targets?

[eagler]

58. Muslims do need to be stepping up to the plate and

loudly denouncing whats happening , in a big way . And also what they intend to do to rectify the situation.

[drduffy]

131. Misplaced Ire

Considering that the neocons, shadow government and corporatist backers are likely responsible for most of the covert operations that create these groups and help them along (a la 9/11)...... I think your ire towards Muslims is misplaced. It should be directed towards 'you know who'....

You KNOW who, don't you??

[slackmaster]

30. Then they need to rein in the extreme elements among their ranks

Maybe enough shame will motivate them.

[smb]

35. So Deal With The Problem

Muslims are just tired of getting the finger pointed at them

Well, then, they need to root out the nutcases in their ranks.

[AliceWonderland]

80. Wow.

Yeah.

THEY better sort it out.

THEY better step up.

THEY better purge their ranks.

THEY better show that they're not subhuman.

Who the THEY is, I'm not sure. Hundreds of millions of people, I gather.

Wow. That's truly hateful.

[hogwyld]

82. Amen!

These idiots think that Islam is the problem, when WE are the major source for world destabilization. Those that live in glass houses....

[index555]

97. Truly Hateful?

In this case I would say the poster was referring to the vast majority of Muslims who do not support suicide bombings , flying planes into buildings(at least non-military or non-government ones) , Etc.. While these people may not like us , they don't want us ALL dead , and most are reasonable enough to not want wanton slaughter
The problem here is that if the attacks go on too long (or become to horrific) against the implied "WE" (namely USA) what do you really think the response would be?
The obvious result would be a WHOLE lot more people dying.

just a question : IF Iran develops Nuclear weapons , and supplies one or more to Hezbollah , Hamas , or Al-Queda , and if those device(s) are actually used against Israel , Britain , or the USA(this is not implausible given the current Iranian administration) what , if any action should be taken? what action do you think WOULD be taken?
The most probable action , there go your "hundreds of millions" in a cloud of radioactive smoke. :nuke::cry:

So , you tell me , is it in the interest of the Muslims who represent the vast majority to reign in a few hateful groups?

[iverglas]

110. ah yes

It's THEM again. The pronoun of choice of the bigot.

Nice to see someone else doing the necessary naming of the spade!

[index555]

111. i'm sorry , but were you replying to me or lookingglass?

n/t

[iverglas]

116. if you look in the upper right corner of my post

you will see the number of the post I was replying to, and if you click on it you will be taken to the post I was replying to: post 80, by AliceWonderland.

i'm sorry , but were you replying to me or lookingglass?

I don't know who lookingglass is. And I hadn't even read your post, expecting it to be merely more of the same. I see now that I wasn't mistaken.

The remark being commented on went like this:

Muslims are just tired of getting the finger pointed at them
Well, then, they need to root out the nutcases in their ranks.

Actually, I like that. I wonder whether anyone can give me a date when I and the rest of us out here in the state of normality and decency can expect you mad USAmericans to root out the nutcases in your ranks?

Until then, I imagine you can just keep on expecting to have that finger pointed at you ... to the tune of that "DEATH TO USA" that seems to upset you so much ...

Better get rooting, eh?

[index555]

120. actually I don't disagree with you

that there is enough fingerpointing to go around
I was going to make a comment also about how "THEM" can and should also inculde "US" (regarding extremists), but "I" got caught up in my depressing apocolyptic scenario, so...

[index555]

121. and also my post was to show where I thought this was heading

That Does NOT Mean That Is What I Want!!
(just so might rethink some of your own prejudices)

[index555]

117. oops ,I meant Alicewonderland ,. sorry , mybad

:blush:

[MrPrax]

2. I am skeptical?

...and with each new braindead 'terror' expert correspondent that comes on CNN this morning...I grow MORE skeptical.

'Don't use your cellphone within 50' of any suspicious package you see!'

Something's afoot

[The_Casual_Observer]

22. The minute they started in with some kind of magical "liquid explosive"

that was totally nonspecific as to type or existence I knew this was a bullshit deal.

[aquart]

43. Yup.

[muryan]

52. Since we all know liquid explosives don't exist

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[sgxnk]

4. shocked? lol

nobody with an IQ over 60 is shocked that a terrorist plot was foiled, or was planned in the first place

for pete's sake, various nations have broken up tons of these things (heck, even in my peaceful home state -see: port angeles) and then there are the ones that didn't get broken up (madrid, bali, etc.)

[leesa]

5. Or completely fabricated...let's see 4 of the suspects already let go,

they found interesting stuff, but they don't say what, lots of vague booga, booga. Let's see now, Tony Blair's in a bit of trouble, ain't he...hmmmm...

[sgxnk]

6. suspects are routinely let go

after arrest. sometimes that's because police want more evidence before they send a case off to be charged, sometimes it's because pc evaporated, sometimes it's because they made a mistake, sometimes its because new information was sufficiently exculpatory, etc.

it doesn't say anything about this being some sort of fabrication, but i realize the black helicopter loonie crowd sees this as a clear response to the lamont win... lol

it's just amazing

it's like art bell without the wit and humour

[smb]

37. Suspect != Criminal

let's see 4 of the suspects already let go

Well, that's what they're supposed to do if they find out they got the wrong guy. Would you prefer indefinite detention to cover up the mistake?

[muryan]

54. No because a goverment actually doing the right thing

is evidence of some conspiracy to make the republicans look good before the elections and so we wont notice when the board of diebold rapes lamont because he beat lieberman while hillary video tapes it......

[index555]

98. Bwahahaha

:rofl: :spray:

[followthemoney]

7. Ah, the tranquil mind of the true believer...

Everything is as it appears. The government has never lied to us before. Why would they start now?

[sgxnk]

9. lol

way to exclude the middle

there is a difference between being a true believer and being a paranoid loon. they are polar opposites

you are in the latter camp.

i am not a true believer, but i understand about evidence, and about the immense difficulty in pulling off such a conspiracy in the UK, not to mention the fact that most of the time, there is no conspiracy

these loons will riot over frigging cartoons, and im supposed to automatically assume a plot to blow up airplanes is automatically a conspiracy because of the lamont election, the evil genius (yet incrediby stupid at the same time) bushcho empire, etc.

get real

if you honestly think, absent exceptionally compelling evidence, that it is more likely that the UK law enforcement community is in on a carefully timed plot to upset the lamont victory with an extensively fabricated fake airplane explosion plot, you should go play with your black helicopter and leave reasoned debate to those with reason in our brains

[Lefty-Taylor]

16. Whoa!! You're the only one who said anything about the "Lamont victory."

You're right about "the middle" but be careful about using a straw man-type strategy.

[sgxnk]

18. there are plenty here

in other threads who are claiming the "timing" is suspicious vis a vis the lamont victory, etc.

[hogwyld]

19. The timing IS suspicious

And don't forget that they parade this stuff out every time Bushco need a bump in the polls!

[sgxnk]

21. bush has needed more than a bump

he needs a frigging jet assisted takeoff in the polls, and has needed same for ages

frankly, it's hard to think of a time that WOULDN't be suspicious, since bad news for buscho happens all the time

so, i stand by my assessment that i see no reason to doubt this plot

[muryan]

55. I agree

In my opinion this makes bush and his policies look even more feeble.

[followthemoney]

17. Cheney worries the Lamont victory benefits Al Qaeda...

Cheney is a nice level headed man we can trust. He never lied to us before. Why would he start now?

Cheney said,
"The thing that’s partly disturbing about it is the fact that, the standpoint of our adversaries, if you will, in this conflict, and the al Qaeda types, they clearly are betting on the proposition that ultimately they can break the will of the American people in terms of our ability to stay in the fight and complete the task.

And when we see the Democratic Party reject one of its own, a man they selected to be their vice presidential nominee just a few short years ago, it would seem to say a lot about the state the party is in today if that’s becoming the dominant view of the Democratic Party, the basic, fundamental notion that somehow we can retreat behind our oceans and not be actively engaged in this conflict and be safe here at home, which clearly we know we won’t — we can’t be."

http://thinkprogress.org/cheney-teleconference

[msmcghee]

27. Yes, and many Americans will see some truth in that.

Especially if they were to drop by DU some time and see how the "rational left" doesn't believe there are such things as terrorists at all - just freedom fighters defending their defenseless poor from Israeli neo-con worldwide aggression.

[megatherium]

29. Amen to that. nt

[hogwyld]

47. The world would be such a nicer place

If the U.S. stayed home and didn't march lockstep to Israel's orders. There would be no need for the freedom fighters now would there?

[muryan]

56. Yup i seem to recalling all the marching we were doing in 2001.

wait, no i dont. Im not even going to begin refuting your logic, i just lost brain cells reading it.

[fujiyama]

79. There is no doubt there are elements on the far left

that are in complete denial about Islamist Jihadi terrorism...or tend to justify these acts almost constantly.

It is important not to paint any place in a broad brush. There are people here that understand that terrorism is a threat and that Bush/Rove/Cheney are not responsible for every single thing that goes wrong in the world.

Unfortunately, we've seen repukes make claims that the left will put the people in danger and Lieberman himself is now making the claim that a Lamont victory will encourage terrorists taking the words out of the repukes' playbook. That smearing must stop.

But it's time for some on the left to face it that radical Islam is illiberal and destructive - every bit as the neocons' policies. Jihadi terrorism is a threat to civilization in too many countries. Moderate Muslims need to be a bigger player in this fight as well though and extremist positions must be shunned, especially by religious leaders without any qualifiers.

[hogwyld]

84. While I respect your intelligent argument

I on the other hand do not fear terrorism. I truly believe that if we got every soldier, sailor, as well as civilian contractors and companies out of the middle east, there would no longer be a reason for them to hate us. I am starting to believe that if we all come home (U.S.) and take care of our own house, the world will move on to a peaceful new era. We need to give up our dreams of empire and colonies.

[fujiyama]

86. Complete isolationism

sounds ideal, but is not obtainable. Even if we take the military out of there (which is a must), our footprint will remain. The empire at this point is well beyond the government and some corporations. It has taken a life of its own.

I agree that certain policies, especially in our contribution of billions in military aid to Israel and our invasion of a country in the region, have not helped us win over anyone's "hearts or minds".

A scaling back of hubris wouldn't hurt.

[hogwyld]

88. But it is obtainable with the right leadership

We aren't entangled with the North Korean, or the Iranian. We can choose to isolate ourselves from that entire region of the globe, and I believe we would be much better off. They hate us, so why keep poking that nest? Leave them be to enjoy their 7th century lifesyle.

[sgxnk]

123. even assuming

we could or should do this.

imo, you are totally wrong

you seem to believe that all these terrorists want is to be left alone.

false, imo.

al qaeda declared war on us (literally and officially) many years ago (long before bushco came to power) and you believe that if we had the eric cartman response

"screw you guys, i'm going home"

that there would be no more terrorist acts against us, i'll just say you are channeling the new version of (neville) chamberlin'ism

there will not be peace in our time

[hogwyld]

125. But you forget why they declared war...

Because we had our pork rind eatin', beer swilling G.I.'s on their holy land. The rage caused by having infidels on arab land can not be understated. Just our prescence in that area of the world is the main root of friction, along with our fanatical allegience to Israel. If we got the hell out of there, and moderated more fairly in regards to the Palestinians, you would see a huge drop in tensions.

[CJCRANE]

15. Yep and how many times do we have

to go through the same dance.

The "believers" say we have to support the govt and the skeptics "let's wait and see what the the truth is" on:

WMD
Plamegate
Abu Ghraib
Pat Tillman
Jessica Lynch
Stockwell shooting (UK)
Forestgate shooting (UK)
Operation Swarmer
Miami 7

etc etc.

ed: spelling

[frylock]

36. word up..

how many lies will it take before people start looking at this krap with some skepticism?

[frylock]

33. and then there are the ones that are total bullshit..

you don't hear too much these days about those dudes in Liberty City that were gonna blow up the Sears Tower, do you?

[aquart]

8. Gosh. Me, too.

The news keeps saying they would have to get together on the plane to mix the items together. Uh huh. HOW? Highly volatile substance with one part each carried by .....4 people? 3? 2? Would they sit together and open bottles? Jam together in the lavatory? Where, exactly, would this coming together occur?

[hogwyld]

12. This sort of crap comes out every time Bushco

needs to pump up it's numbers. Terra, Terra, you know. They're basically putting out the message that "Lamont winning is a green light to terrorists" If they dig deep enough, I'll bet there are some rovian fingerprints to be found.

[mike923]

23. So 21 British guys are going to go to jail for life...

because they wanted to take the news of Lamont's victory off the front page?

Was Lamont's victory even on the front page outside of Connecticut?

[hogwyld]

31. No, bushco has already arranged for that

Once the fake trial is over, and they're "transferred" to max security, they'll be let go and enrolled in the witness protection program.

[mike923]

49. Its not hard to find where Richard Reid is....

he's in his cell in Colorado. 5 years from now, he'll still be in that cell. Any news organization can and will do a "where is he now" story every few years.

Are those news organizations apart of the conspiracy? How many millions of people are in this conspriacy?

If this is the dominant school of thought for all democrats, i don't know what i am anymore.

[demo dutch]

70. No not really! People were stranded all over the world, a little

too far fetched to give all that credit to Bushco. However expect for them to capitalize on the moment

[hogwyld]

71. Don't put anything past the pugs...

For every Richard Reid, there are probably a lot more that the government doesn't tell us about who are either pushing up daisies, or squirreled away in some witsec program. Including those on "Our side"

[CJCRANE]

13. "Terror spectacular for the 5th anniversary of Sept 11th"

the plot as described on Fox News.

Hmmm...I wonder who would benefit most from a foiled terror spectacular.

[muryan]

57. The people who don't die?

Not everything is politics, just be glad there isnt anymore blood being spilled.

[Taboo]

63. Well, I dunno, maybe

the people who did not die in a freakin airplane that was set ablaze with gasoline in a gatorade bottle?

[slackmaster]

66. Channeling Lovey Howell for just a brief moment...

What does one wear to a Terror Spectacular?

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Some background...

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/5243356.stm

[MrCoffee]

25. Americans shocked but skeptical over terrah plot

[daleo]

26. That sums it up for me

"Shock and skepticism". Too bad Bush/Blair have lied so much that I would have a hard time believing them (or the governments they run) if they said water was wet.

[Spinoza]

34. Muslim fanatics plotting to

kill 'non-believers'? On airplanes? Ridiculous! Why would anyone ever believe such utter nonsense?

[muryan]

59. Duh, 9/11 was a plot by the government

because muslims are freedom loving resistance fighters against the evil jews. :sarcasm:

[index555]

102. Oh! They would NEVER do such a thing!

:sarcasm: :eyes:

[hogwyld]

136. They're actuall using *'s srtategery....

Fighting the infidels over "there" so they don't have to fight them on the streets of Tehran!!

edit for bad spelling

[GeorgeGist]

45. Shocked???

This is Earth, 2006 isn't it?

[Posteritatis]

69. "Shocked but skeptical" is about the right reaction, I think

"Holy shit, someone almost did that?? Well, at least someone might have almost done that? What the hell's going on?"

S'how I reacted this morning.

[leesa]

77. I'm certainly skeptical....sounds like more neocon bullshit to me to shore

up their failing terror wars, a failing Blair and a failing GOP.

[fujiyama]

81. Skepticism is always good

but outright denial and worse yet any justification isn't.

While I understand that many Muslims feel victimized by the West for various actions taking place in Iraq, Lebanon, and Afghanistan, they have to realize that in the latter two conflicts atleast, Islamist terrorism played a major role in the start of the violence.

[hogwyld]

83. A more plausible reason for the last 2 wars

Is bushco's allegience to the oil cartels. North Korea was a bigger threat, but since there wasn't any oil, we didn't invade.

[fujiyama]

85. The role of oil and gas

in Afghanistan was relatively limited compared to that in Iraq. Iraq was where the real prize was for oil companies. If the administration had it its' way, I doubt we would have ever entered Afghanistan. Tony Blair had to convince them, in order for him to support the neocons in toppling Saddam.

The administration really had no interest in attacking real Islamist terrorists. It had its boogy men like Saddam and it would have exploited him without ever reacting to actual Al Qaeda type terrorists, which operate out of countries it deems allies (Pakistan, gulf Arab states). After all, we know that whatever little progress was made in Afghanistan is mostly being undone by a resurgent Taliban...and we are contributing even less to the international force that is there, by pulling out all our troops.

As for the conflict between Israel and Lebanon, it's undeniable that Jihadi terrorism has played a role in escalating the conflict. Religious fanaticism is a definite cobtributing factor.

[hogwyld]

87. One of the theories regarding Afghanistan

Was that the oil companies were very interested in building a pipeline across Afghanistan to the other "stans" to be able to access their significant oil reserves.
I don't dispute your argument in regards to the jihadi's, my main argument is that if we weren't poking the hornets nest on a regular basis, both militarily, and culturally, they would be nothing more than a small nuisance at best. We are basically reaping what we have sown over the decades.

[index555]

103. And why shouldn't they build a pipeline?

At least why not, If they were dealing with a more reasonable govt.?

[IndyBob]

89. Why don't we go completely off the deep end...

And lament that the attacks were not successful? Any Americans, or Brits for that matter, who died would have been completely deserving of their fate. The radical Islamist are totally justified in his hatred of the west, and should be given atomic weapons and the means to deliver them to better enable the defeat of the evil and meddling west.

:sarcasm:

[raging moderate]

92. The Muslims also moved a lot of their people into Palestine.

Just because the Romans ordered the Jews to leave, did you really think they all just obediently dispersed? Of course, as many as possible continued to live in their ancestral homeland during the past 200 years. There were lots of Jewish villages there, and there was continuing friction between Jews and Muslims much of the time, although of course saner heads prevailed there occasionally as they have managed to do everywhere else. When the Brits took over in the 19th Century, they took a census and found more Jews than Muslims living there (plus a smaller but ancient Christian community). Historically, Brits have not been the greatest fans of Jews or the nation of Israel. They were just doing a thorough tabulation for the punctilious planning of which they were so fond during their empire period. During the ensuing decades, Muslims moved in from other countries, and so did Jews. Of course, this is the holy center of the Jewish religion. After all, their ancient temple is on that temple mount, with that Muslim mosque deliberately built on top of it. I wonder what would happen to any group that deliberately built one of its major worship centers on top of that Dome of the Rock in Mecca, and then set about removing traces of the former building piece by piece. I do think that the Muslims in Palestine had historically shown a startling failure in empathy. Of course, now that the Bush regime has started a war in Iraq which had no ties to Al Queda in order, they say, to "fight them over there so we don't have to fight them over here(etc. etc.)," I have to blush with shame when I mention an empathy failure in any other nation. And Israel is certainly not innocent either. But it is not true that all the Israeli Jews just moved in recently, or that all the Palestinian Muslims have been living there all along.

[index555]

108. Bravo!

:applause: :woohoo: :yourock: :bounce:

[IndyBob]

119. Dead nuts on

None of those involved are blameless. Not the Zionists, not the radical Muslims, and especially not the US and the remainder of the money grubbing west. It seems no-one has a real interest in finding a peaceful solution.

We should avoid the freeper mentality of black and white, good and evil. There is an infinite spectrum of grey.

[drduffy]

132. Frankly, The West HAS been Evil and Meddling for FAR TOO LONG

[hogwyld]

133. That too shall pass

Just came back from Europe, and with the number of new Mosques that were being built, it won't be long before justice is served. Our judjment is on it's way as well. I just hope I'm somewhere else by then.

[hogwyld]

134. Take a deep breath Indy...

Nobody here was "hoping" that they would succeed. But i do get flabbergasted by many calls on DU to eliminate or exterminate the arabs in a thermonuclear fireball. Myself, I prefer to listen to their grievances, and try to find a common ground.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[hogwyld]

137. The temporary insanity defense???

No court in the world would convict them after hearing of *'s taunting and meanness!