Guardian/AP: 11 Israeli Soldiers Reportedly Killed

[Olive]

JERUSALEM (AP) - Arab satellite TV Al-Jazeera reported that 11 Israeli soldiers were killed Wednesday in heavy fighting with Hezbollah guerrillas near the border in south Lebanon. Meanwhile, Israel's Security Cabinet debated a proposal to vastly expand its ground offensive in Lebanon, with key ministers arguing the military must deal more blows to Hezbollah and score quick battlefield victories before a cease-fire is imposed.

More Hezbollah rockets were fired at northern Israeli towns Wednesday, bringing the total during the conflict to 3,333, police said.

Hezbollah guerrillas fired more 100 rockets at Israeli towns, including several medium-range missiles that landed near the West Bank town of Jenin and south of the Israeli city of Afula, police said.


(more)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/worldlatest/story/0,,-6003473,00.html

[theHandpuppet]

1. When will the madness stop?

CEASE FIRE NOW!

PEACE NOW!

[Zhade]

17. PLEASE!

No more dead innocents on either side!

[newyorican]

2. That's the price..

of invasion.

[Zhade]

18. Agreed, and yet these are conscripts.

They have no choice, right?

Fucking rightwing Israeli war-crime-committing government!

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

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[saigon68]

8. Au Revoir

[bemildred]

4. Al Jazeera is still the only source for this.

The Haaretz version reads like this:

"Israel Defense Forces troops were engaged in fierce fighting Wednesday with Hezbollah guerillas in the southern Lebanon villages of Ayta al-Shaab and Dibel. The IDF confirmed there were a number of casualties in Ayta al-Shaab.

Ten IDF soldiers were reported injured in the battle. They were evacuated to the Rambam Medical Center in Haifa and to the Rebecca Sieff Hospital in Safed for treatment.

The guerillas are equipped with anti-tank missiles, which have previously caused losses among the IDF troops in the area. "

I guess if you are dead you've been "injured in battle".

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/747820.html

[The Magistrate]

5. And Optimistic Souls, Sir

Often take the wounded for dead....

Everybody exaggerates the effect they have on the enemy.

"The War Office keeps three sets of books: one to mis-lead the public, one to mis-lead the Government, and one to mis-lead themselves."

[bemildred]

6. That's the way it works in the video games, Sir.

Are you saying it's not like that in real life?

Personally, I'm amazed they manage to keep any sort of count at all, conditions being what they are in a combat zone.

[The Magistrate]

7. That Particular Virus, Sir

Has probably infected more than an antique like myself realizes.

Some of it probably honest mis-apprehension, and some of it certainly deliberate lies for morale effect.

My inclination is to distrust any casualty figure provided less than three months after the engagement ceased....

[bemildred]

9. I was making the same point myself today, Sir.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x227903#227912

It seems to annoy some, pointing out the prevalence of lies and "imaginative" reporting.

The video game virus seems to be rampant in the military in the developed world, but it is not like people have ever failed to be attracted to simple solutions to messy problems. The tale of the Gordian Knot is quite old now.

[The Magistrate]

10. And Your Pains Seem Un-Appreciated, My Friend

It does seem to me likely the Hezbollah casualties, at least among the small number directly engaged, have been appreciable, simply because there is so much fire-power being employed that on occassion something must be struck by it. But the numbers are probably insufficient to achieve any real weakening. Whether they are sufficient for the domestic political needs of Mr. Olmert is a different question, and here a degree of "imagination" will probbaly be helpful....

[bemildred]

11. I more or less agree.

When there is a plentiful supply of RPGs and the like, there are going to be people splattered all over the place. And the numbers splattered so far, peace to their souls, are not enough to matter in any strategic sense. The unknowns are what real force Hezbullah has at its disposal, and what real force Israel will be required to (or prove willing to) throw into the fray. I am wondering when the Israelis will realize they are better off to get out of the tin cans and walk along in a dispersed formation.

[The Magistrate]

12. There Are A Number Of Odd Features To The Situation, Sir

The great problem in dealing with a guerrilla force is getting it to fight at all. This requires real baits and gambit techniques to draw fire; you have to expose men to real prospect of serious harm, to entice the enemy out to act in reach of concealed firepower. The last thing you want to do is make an imposing show of massive force.

[bemildred]

13. Concentrations of force become big fat targets,

can one's enemy but find something to bring to bear; and should one's enemy refuse to present some similar targets, it leaves one at a disadvantage. In the presence of rockets, RPGs, MGs, artillery, aircraft and the like, there is no shortage of weapons of suitable destructive power to bring to bear. This has been clear for a long time.

The same logic applies to armor, once dismounts have light weapons sufficient to kill a tank reliably. A tank is much more expensive and difficult to replace than a few soldiers. Tanks have been liabilities for some time where tank-killer aircraft are present, it now seems to be becoming true in the presence of well equipped infantry. Southern Lebanon does not look like good terrain for armor anyway, and armor aggravates one's logistics issues.

And, of course, anyone that plays first-person shooter video games knows that RPGs have many uses.

You are right that some bait will be required to draw the enemy out here. War is much like a team sport, with lots of fancy equipment, in which the players' object is to kill each other. One wants bait that is enticing without being too threatening, and one should work hard not to throw the bait's lives away for nothing.

On the other hand, it ought to be the case that a sufficient force of Israeli troops, using proper tactics, could give a good account of themselves, not perhaps cheaply, but well. On the other hand, they have been drawn into combat at a place and time of the enemies choosing, as I mentioned before, and they would do well to alter that dynamic somehow, to find some way to be less predictable, to regain the initiative.

[IndianaGreen]

14. 15 IDF killed today according to MSNBC

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14258758/

and the Haaretz news crawler is constantly giving numbers of casualties. This is a bloody war!

[bemildred]

15. Yep, it seems to have been confirmed/picked up.

Said they were hiding in a house. One would think given events in Lebanon they would know the risks in that.

[3waygeek]

21. BBC World News reports the same n/t

[Zhade]

19. I wonder if they're using U.S. military death-counts.

That is, if the soldiers die once they are physically off the field - i.e., in the helicopter or even on the stretcher heading that way.

[bemildred]

22. I'm a little skeptical about that.

They might sit on things until they are "sure", but the Israeli press is quite free, despite the censorship; I expect it would be hard to be as cute as the pentagon is about casualties.

[hack89]

23. I am not sure exactly what you mean ...

are you saying that the US undercounts the number of dead?

[Zhade]

16. K/R for this tidbit...

"Meanwhile, Israel's Security Cabinet debated a proposal to vastly expand its ground offensive in Lebanon, with key ministers arguing the military must deal more blows to Hezbollah and score quick battlefield victories before a cease-fire is imposed."

[bemildred]

20. That is, unfortunately, foolish.

There will be no quick decisive victories. A massive enough force might well get to the Litani fairly fast, leaving enemies in their rear as they do it. Maybe that is what they have in mind.

[Name removed]

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