Israeli Qana raid may fit pattern of violations-UN

[cal04]

Israel's shelling of the Lebanese village of Qana appears to fit a pattern of violations of international law marking warfare between Israel and Hizbollah guerrillas, U.N. Secretary-General Kofi Annan said on Monday.

In a report to the U.N. Security Council, Annan said a comprehensive investigation was needed to gather evidence of possible violations of international humanitarian and human rights laws affecting both Lebanese and Israeli civilians during the conflict.

The 15-nation council asked Annan to look into the deadly July 29 Israeli bombing of a residential building in Qana to determine the facts of the raid, which triggered outrage around the world.

Early Lebanese reports on the attack branded it a massacre, putting the death toll at more than 54 people and at one point more than 60 people.

http://www.alertnet.org/thenews/newsdesk/N07369837.htm

[bluedog]

1. just heard that on BBC news......has the US media said anything yet????

[LynnTheDem]

2. Here, allow me to do the US "media" thang...

"overreacting" ... "Annan must apologize immediately" ... "Israel/right/defend" ... "UN irrelevant"...

et-bloody-cetera.

[breakaleg]

5. gosh, you've got that down!!

[TankLV]

3. What about the 180 TERRORIST Hesbollah rockets that slammed into Israeli

cities.

Gonna give that a pass again as usual?

[breakaleg]

4. "terrorist" is an inaccurate portrayal of the facts.

Does it matter what happened in Israel in order to determine the facts of Qana? Either Qana happened or it didn't, regardless of what happened elsewhere.

If I were to concede that the 180 missiles were a war crime, does that mean Qana didn't happen?

This report deals only with Qana. I'm sure there will be investigations into other atrocities as this thing progresses.

[chimpymustgo]

6. Sometimes the brutal facts can't be defended. Qana is indefensible.

And yes, it fits a pattern of collective punishment and ethnic cleansing. Can't be defended, so Plan B - let's talk about something else!

[cali]

7. Qana is indefensible

but so is the entire Israeli adventure in Lebanon, Frankly I don't see what makes Qana worse that the bombing of the Syrian farmworkers. I disagree that Qana, in and of itself, is a case for ethnic cleansing. A better case can be made by linking together several of the actions taken by the Israelis.

[chimpymustgo]

8. That's the point of the OP. The "pattern". Which equals ethnic cleansing

and collective punishment. I am heartened to read your agreement that this is indefensible.

[Lerkfish]

10. outrage at Israel does not equal giving Hezbollah a pass.

except in your mind.

[CJCRANE]

11. That's a good point -

Hezbollah has political representatives who should be held to acount too.

[PCIntern]

13. Of course they're gonna give that a pass...

why waste bandwidth on Israeli wounded, mutilated, and dead. when you can use the entire bandwidth to upbraid the 'jackbooted war criminal' Israelis for defending their sovereign state?

Don't think for one minute that casualties on one side equal casualties on the other despite what they're saying here. The reason that the body conts are different is that Israelis are much better at protecting their populus than Hezbollah is at protecting theirs. In fact, they want to see the numbers climb to garner world affection. It certainly has worked here.

[JackORoses]

18. Don't you mean

Israel is much more adept at killing innocent civilians than Hezbollah?
Because they're definitely winning if body counts are the measure of Victory.

If Peace is the measure of Victory, then they are supreme losers.

[endarkenment]

14. Like this one?

Twelve reservists killed in rocket attack
http://www.jpost.com/servlet/Satellite?cid=1154525814086&pagename=JPost%2FJPArticle%2FShowFull

Just a lucky hit? Or does Hezbollah actually try to hit military targets?

[PCIntern]

15. Let's see...

how many Israelis are NOT in the military and are not reservists? Since they've been at war for 58 years continuously with their 'peace-loving' neighbors, most folks have some connection with the military. Not like this candy-assed country where people on the left and right sit behind keyboards and play fantasy diplomacy and fantasy war, and wouldn't sign up for the military on a bet. But because they watch the military experts on CNN and MSRNC, they know all bout the war machines.

So if a rocket lands in a group of men, likely as not, they're either reservists or army.

[endarkenment]

16. Do some research on this particular attack.

This was an attack on a military staging area. You might want to argue it was an accident, or accept the possibility that Hezbollah is at least sometimes trying to hit military targets. owever your argument, as it is above, would if you applied the same rational given for why IDF targeting of civilians is legitimate, legitimize Hezbollah targeting of Israeli civilians. That is not an argument I am making, nor is it one I think you want to make.

Demonizing either side is stupid. Ignoring the idiocy of either side is stupid. Both sides are fighting a war and both sides are targeting both civilian and military targets.

[PCIntern]

17. I didn't say they were stupid...

what I'm saying is that their battle plan is that every target in Israel is legitimate because their charter as it were, stipulates that the Zioninst entity and its people must be vanquished, i.e. eradicated, exterminated, or whatever verb you feel like using.

So they don't care who they hit...if it's military all the better, two birds with one stone. However, it is not considered 'inappropriate' to kill civilians because, well, they're the describedtarget. Israel of course, is considered guilty of 'war crimes' if it kills civilians because, well, it's not in their charter to do that.

Even some of your buddies here state that they hold Israel to a higher standard. (Zhade, for example) As one whose family members are hiding in shelters, I take particular umbrage with that statement.

As far as 'research' on an attack, when that missle is headed for your nose, I invite you to do some research - quickly...

this is war, make no mistake about it.

[LivingInTheBubble]

19. So they are all legitimate targets then by israels standards.

Even more so than hezbollah who "hide amongst the civilians" (and UN observers/ambulances/relief convoys/funerals).

[semillama]

20. By your definition, there are no citizen targets then

If a rocket lands in a group of men, to quote you, and they are either reservists or Army, doesn't that then make them a legitimate military target? If they are a legitimate military target, then they were not the victims of a terrorist act but a military one.

Not taking a side here, but pointing out a flaw in your argument you may want to correct if you intend to sway opinion. Although I suspect that is not your intent here.

[PCIntern]

21. ...that's not my point...

The idea here, is that Hezbollah sends rockets everywhere. By their standards, any casualty is a good one. Once in a while they get 'lucky' and hit military which means that they can stand up and say that they're not targeting civilians. Ever. Never. Because they hit soldiers or reservists. It's like Alice in Wonderland.

[mom cat]

9. I am glad that the war crimes aspect of this is being investigated.

If IIsrael gets away with this horrific destruction of a democratic neighbor, then we might as well burn all international law.

[Igel]

12. It may.

But Annan's playing to the press.

First, determine the facts. Then make judgments.

"Qana may fit a pattern of violations" entails "Qana may not fit a pattern of violations."

Personally, I think Annan was trying for "Qana fits a pattern of what may be violations"--modal operators (and negation and adverbs ...) in English have been surfacing in increasingly odd places.