Cross-country running 'is physical abuse'

[T_i_B]

What utter crap. I used to love cross country running when I was at school. And then we wonder why kids these days are so fat when we adults pull stupid stunts like this to discourage exercise.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/education/5252036.stm

Cross-country running at school could be a form of physical abuse, a textbook for teenagers suggests.

A chapter of the book, distributed by Co-ordination Group Publications, says children have the right to protection from physical and emotional abuse.

It lists bullying and cross-country runs as possible examples.

Margaret Talbot, chief executive of the Association for Physical Education, said this "trivialised" abuse and was based on an "outdated notion" of PE. Prof Talbot said: "I think what is in the book is just sloppy. They haven't researched it properly. It gives ammunition to backroom lawyers. This is counter-productive, as so many PE teachers try so hard."

[LostinVA]

1. What the heck???

I ran cross country in high grammar and high school and loved it. I'm 41 now, and do all kinds of trail running -- ie cross country.

[T_i_B]

8. Cross country running was one of the few sports I was actually good at

I used to actually run the proper route, without cheating by taking shortcuts like the other kids and I still used to finish up at the top. And it was a pretty nice route to run too!

I'm rubbish at playing most sports but Cross Country running I used to enjoy a lot. I also enjoyed playing scrum half at rugby, although I was never going to take that up in a big way as I'm a bit too small for that sport really.

I think that whoever came up with this cobblers about cross-country being abuse needs to be told that just because you don't enjoy something does not make it an abuse of your human rights. I mean I don't enjoy peeling potatoes but that does not make peeling spuds an abuse of my human rights does it?

[LostinVA]

14. I've never liked team-based sports too much

That;'s one reason why I always liked cc... you were on a team, but you didn't play as a team.

[Dead_Parrot]

30. What you said

Cross-country was the only thing that stopped me turning in a ball of lard at 14, until I discovered rugby.

And it was fun - there's something very primitive and exhilarating about that last 50 yard dash to try and beat at least one of your mates and staggering into the school yard covered in shit, looking like a bad Al Johnson impersonator who's lost a lung.

It's possible this book was written by a kid who always finished last, and had had one of those old-school sports teachers who makes Goebbels look like Mary Poppins. That can get nasty.

[T_i_B]

72. The interesting thing about cross-country

is that a lot of the kids who exelled at it were not the usual sporty kids at all. Often the people who did well in cross country were scrawny kids like myself who didn't shine at all in other sports. I mean goodness, however much I love watching the footy I'm no good at playing it and I am totally useless at sprinting, but I used to really love cross country running.

As to Rugby, that's a completly different matter, I think I used to enjoy that simply for the release.

[Lisa]

83. ditto! It was the one sport where I actually felt comfortable

(aside from outdoor track, which I found rather boring because it meant going around and around in order to complete the 1500 or 3000 m)

Our team got along well, and the coaches of the other school teams were also friendly and supportive -- none of the "trash talking" which I saw in some of the other sports! (If long runs are being used as punishment, I can see where the author might be getting it from ... but in my case, the coachs NEVER "sentenced" people to do hills or whatever, and they always came along with us on our runs.)

In cross-country, nobody cared about my being younger or smaller than the other people on the team -- or wearing glasses, or not being aggressive.

[AzDar]

2. Nonsense. n/t

[maxsolomon]

3. its abuse when

you tie a hot dog to the end of a stick mounted on the kids back & make them run after it. abuse i tells ya!

[bbinacan]

4. Unreal n/t

[Demobrat]

5. Letting them sit on their butts

eating junk food is child abuse. IMO.

[kurth]

6. Kids, please don't leave your Xbox. Do not run or lift weights

Preserve your joints and muscles. GEEEZ.

[tridim]

7. Well, my school made me run the mile while I had asthma

Probably not "abuse", but very dangerous legally.

I held all kinds of school records for jumping field events (probably because I was a gymnast), but I couldn't run long distances because of my lungs. The gym teacher just didn't care.

[rfranklin]

11. Physical Education is often used for punishment in English...

schools. There certainly are times when it is intended to be abusive. The school I went to also allowed teachers to "cane" us with a stick for all sorts of infractions. Some teachers were embarassed by having to do it. Others took a sadistic glee in winding up from across the room to inflict maximum damage.

[rfranklin]

12. Physical Education is often used for punishment in English...

schools. There certainly are times when it is intended to be abusive. The school I went to also allowed teachers to "cane" us with a stick for all sorts of infractions. Some teachers were embarassed by having to do it. Others took a sadistic glee in winding up from across the room to inflict maximum damage.

[MindPilot]

41. I can vouch for that! Not only running, but doing it in the freezing cold

And finishing off with a couple laps around the pool with the water barely above freezing. PE teachers are a bunch of sadists and and their sole function is to protect and nurture bullies whom they euphemistically call "athletes".

[RawMaterials]

47. cry me a river

PE teachers are just trying to do the right thing helping our children stay in shape.
Just because you had a teacher that tried to push you a bit harder then what you wanted doesn't mean he is a sadists. give me a break does an math teacher that makes you learn how to do algebra when you cant understand it make that teacher a sadist too who just wants to push you???

[Realityhack]

56. Um

I would hesitate to jump to the conclusion that anyones particular case was just normal reasonable coaching. Teachers are people and they do bad things.

Some people think of forced phisical excersize (often past the point of safety) is a valid punisment technique. I have no problem with appropriate coaching and I recognize that most PE teachers are trying ot do the right thing. Obviously the previous poster over-reached in generalizing but you are just doing the same thing in reverse.

[customerserviceguy]

64. Perhaps most PE teachers are wonderful folks

but all the ones I encountered were frustrated jocks who took it out on us just because they didn't get a career in pro sports. They did nothing to deal with the bullying that the jocks in our classes visited upon the nerdly, the overweight, and the unpopular.

A lot of us had really bad experiences with PE, and that did nothing to help us have a good outlook on excercise for our adult lives. As soon as I had enough PE credits in the middle of my sophomore year to graduate with, I cut out of there. And the last credits were the first half of a co-ed PE class where guys and girls competed mildly with each other in bowling, archery, and golf.

[T_i_B]

73. If you had bothered to actually keep check of the facts

You would know that the cane has actually been banned years ago in state schools. And PE was never used as punishment when I was at school. In actual fact it was unheard of. Our punishments if they were physical involved litter picking after school, although it's only a matter of time before some fuckwit decides to call that "abuse" as well.

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. Felsted used it (that doesn't surprise you, does it?)

In fact, while prefects couldn't use corporal punishment, ie striking them in any way (and it was banned for use by teachers while I was there in the early 80s), prefects (and teachers, though they rarely used it) could order people to go for runs as punishment - normally round paths in the schools where it could be checked they were doing it. Typically it was an early-morning run, before breakfast. Of course, someone could have refused point blank to do it, but that would have escalated the punishment up the chain to the headmaster.

[T_i_B]

90. And how long ago was that?

Sorry to bring this up, but I know you left school a long while ago Muriel. I mean you were at school over 20 years ago. Do you honestly think that Felsted still use that nowadays? And come to think of it were you doing 2-3 mile runs as punishment either? (as let's be honest that's what I mean by cross country, not a few times round the school yard.)

Anyway, the posh kids from Felsted should be welcoming cross country, how else are they to get from there to Braintree Freeport and back? :rofl:

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. Yes, it was about 20 years ago

but the point is it wasn't counted as 'corporal punishment', so it might still be used in some places, whether or not Felsted does. I can only think of a couple of times a long run was used as a punishment - about 5 miles, though on the road in both cases. The normal punishment run was indeed only 1 mile.

The last part of the cross country course was called "Shit Hill" beacuse it was up a bastard deeply rutted farm track normally running with water and mud. Unfortunately, it didn't lead to Braintree. But escaping to Braintree normally meant you were too legless to be able to run back afterwards ...

[T_i_B]

94. Do you honestly think they still do that?

I mean seriously, leaving aside your known dislike of your old school do you honestly think they would even be allowed in the current climate?

BTW, I'm too not sure about going to Braintree to get legless as there are no decent pubs in Braintree! :rofl: That's why I mentioned Freeport, because there's always shopping to entice teenagers.

[muriel_volestrangler]

95. Definition of a decent pub around Felsted:

One without a teacher in it.

Yeah, they might still do it. When the story about Howard Dean spending his exchange year there was printed, someone from the school claimed corporal punishement had been stopped by the time he was there in the late 60s - which was complete bollocks. They may well have hung on to sending people on runs as punishment, since it's not actually that bad - it uses less of your time than most other punishments (in fact, it was having to get up and changed into running gerar so early that was regarded as a major part of the punishment, rather than the actual run. When I was a prefect, I didn't give that punihsment, because I didn't want to get woken up that early either). I'm sure any medical condition would be a valid excuse to get an alternative punishment.

[T_i_B]

96. So you don't have any evidence whatsoever

but you loathe your old school so much that you are going to suspect them anyway. :eyes:

[muriel_volestrangler]

97. 'Evidence'? Jeez, TiB, you're taking this a bit seriously

I didn't actually say they do allow it - I said they used to, it wasn't regarded as corporal punishment, and it's possible they still do use it. For that matter, there's no evidence that they stopped using it. 'Loathe'? I wouldn't put it like that; but I know what they're like - more, I would imagine, than you. 'Suspecting' them seems reasonable. A roll-eyes comment from you seems unnecessary.

[kineneb]

33. they tried to make me run in PE

I ignored them and walked...I hate running and it makes my knees hurt. I didn't care if they flunked me. Like PE grades make a difference to someone who planned to study music.

(just another one of those anti-authoritarian snots)

[lisby]

63. I'm a snot, too.

Some people are not runners. Take me for example. Neanderal-shaped body, you see. It is just not possible for me not sprint like a freaking gazelle across the savanah. Nothing will ever change that.

Lisby

[muryan]

61. I have severe asthma

have had it since i was born. I played 3 sports and ran cross country while in high school. There is no danger in being physically active while having asthma, as long as you take the necessary precautions with medication.

[MrCoffee]

9. cross country running = bad

McDonald's and Coke machines = good

[Journeyman]

10. It's only abuse when they let loose the hounds. . .

otherwise, there're few things as exhilarating as a runner's high.

[Binka]

53. Oh Yeah Baby

When I was dead broke and fucked beyond belief by my fundie ex running saved my life. That high is sweet and life saving!

[don954]

13. well... trying to make kids run further than there body is ready to do

is abuse, and bad coaching. I remember as a kid i had a PE teacher try to make me run 20 laps on my fist day of PE. I colapsed after 10 laps or so and had to be carried to the nurses office.

Each student needs to be tested for their current physical abilities and then a proper regimen of physical training should be addressed. Anything else is dangerous and negligent. Because i had 3 of my 4 PE teachers do this crap, i learned to hate exercise. My last one helped me properly, but too late, i never learned good exercise habits. Now at 27 im learning to exercise properly but now its 100 times harder cause i got really freaking fat, but being fat sucks much more than exercising....

[OnionPatch]

18. It could be abuse yes.

If one is really out of shape, being forced to run for a long period would be abuse and possibly even dangerous.

Don't get me wrong, I think kids should be encouraged to be active. Note the word "encouraged" is not the same as "forced."

[AngryAmish]

75. Who is in charge, you or the kid?

I was forced to do lots of stuff as a kid. Children get to have opinions but not vetos.

[LeftHander]

15. Making kids run in HS sports until they puke.....

Is abuse...You can train for competition without puking.

[OnionPatch]

19. Not only that

but this kind of experience is almost sure to turn a kid off of sports, maybe forever.

[MindPilot]

42. worked for me.

[hughee99]

16. As I recall, we only had to run 1 mile, once a year...

When I was in gym class in the 80's and early 90's, we had to run a mile for some evaluation (I think it was a statewide test). The gym teacher asked us to run as fast as we could, but many people just walked it. Other than that, no running was "required" during gym class. I was on the track team and ran cross-country every fall, but I can't really blame the school for that since it was voluntary.

Was anyone "forced" to run (and I mean actually run, not just walk the course) during gym class on a regular basis?

[LeighAnn]

25. I was!

Every day we had to run laps before we were forced to get naked in front of our classmates and shower, and each year's P. E. curriculum involved cross-country from 5th grade on. I absolutely hated it. It was abuse, I feel like 20th century gym class has been responsible for sending millions into psychotherapy.

[happyslug]

39. In my Junior High yes,

The teacher even sent one of his football players after me for walking on the track and told him to force the walkers to run. No direct order to punch the walkers but I was punched. The Coach was later involved in some sort of abuse situation the School superintendent tried to cover up, both lost their jobs over it. From the rumor mill I heard was the Coach had done to someone what he had done to me, but that child told his parents who took the Child to a Doctor who reported bruises and reported the abuser to Children and Youth. The Superintendent then tried to disciplined the Child for making a false report. Under Pennsylvania law they can be NO PUNISHMENT for reporting abuse to CYS, Even if the report is false. The Superintendent had no defense and lost his license to be a Superintendent and thus his job. Another rumor was that Children and Youth brought an action against the Superintendent for NOT reporting the abuse when the family first told the School District of the Abuse. Under Pennsylvania law the Superintendent was a mandatory reporter, i.e. he MUST report to CYS all cases of suspected Child abuse. No matter what was the cause for the problem he and the coach lost their jobs for covering up some sort of abuse. Is suspect physical, but I never heard what was the exact abuse in the case for by the time it broke open I had moved to another school district but I had a sister who had the Superintendent as a Substitute teacher shortly afterward (for some reason he retained his teaching certificate but not his license to be a Pennsylvania School Superintendent).

[Dogmudgeon]

17. Sounds like a deliberate misquote

The remark was in the section on legal rights at school. It's VERY probable that the context was a legal discussion of punishment; specifically, cross-country running as a punishment.

Of course, given a chance to get people angry about obesity, no misquote is too bone-headed.

When the Beeb decides to give us better context than a half-sentence quotation and a too-brief mention of the section it was in, I'll gripe accordingly.

--p!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

20. Welcome to Britain, the nanny state. n/t

[fishwax]

21. I notice the article doesn't actually quote the book

so it's hard to judge whether the article's characterization is accurate.

I'm always a little skeptical about stories like this, knowing how the right loves to downplay charges of abuse, criticize secular education as soft, etc.

The book's publishers make the claim that the suggestion is tongue in cheek. Without context, I guess it's hard to tell.

[MrPrax]

22. The guy who invented the Marathon...

did die right after his cross-country trip?

Um...it might be a bit exaggerated.

But like a medical friend said years ago in university...Run if you want, but don't tell me the human body was designed for it.

[LostinVA]

23. The human body was designed for it

A recent study shows shows the human body was designed to run great distances at a slow pace.


http://abcnews.go.com/Technology/story?id=256348&page=1

[MrPrax]

26. I've read reports

saying extreme sports and 'overly' long marathons do far more damage to the body than is gained. It's more fanaticism, than health.

Moderation is always the best way to go...but if our bodies were made to run great distances over a long time, then evolution or someone fucked up the 'nipple' part. ;-)

[superconnected]

32. Bingo!

On screwing up the nipple part! Boobs and runnning have always been a problem for me and I love to run.

[LostinVA]

49. I'm friends with several ultrarunners

Including some of the best in the world -- literally. All nice people, all normal, all very healthy.

I run about 60 mpw myself, and am in great health.

[happyslug]

40. The Human body was design for long distance walking

With occasional runs of some long or short distance depending on the situation. Man is faster than any other creature when it comes to a combination of climbing, running and swimming. Basically a man can out climb or out run any creature that can out swim man. Man can out swim and out climb any creature that can out run man, and man can out climb and out run any creature that can out climb man.

As part of the design for man (and my use of the term in this thread includes women) we are capable of walking huge distances even can young ages. Basically if you are to heavy to carry, your body is capable of walking 20-30 miles in a day. In the Stone age people moved as a member of a group. Old men and women with babes in arms were also members of that group. Except for the very sick all could move huge distances (Even babes in arms can be moved by their mothers) by foot travel alone.

Now the above assumes the person is fit. You can not walk 20 miles if all you have done is sit in an office or class room all day. You have to build up to do any form of physical exertion but it is something that has to be done daily and then brought up to what is the norm. In boot camp we did not start running 20 miles a day, the Drill Sergeants started out at a much lower level and brought the whole unit up to what was needed. The same with push ups and Sit-ups, it was a slow build up over a nine week course. The start was what the Sergeant thought was the capability of the weakest individuals and built up from there. After boot camp whenever I took up running It took my a couple of months to get back to that level. I could NOT do it right off, i had to work my self up to that level. In my mid-30 I was doing 10 miles a day while 30 pounds over weight (It can be done) but then my knees started to give out on me and I moved to an area where they was no real flat area to run.

My point is the human body while it is capable of running huge distances, that is something the body was design to build up to NOT done right away. The main method of exercise for most people was NOT running but walking huge distances. This seems to be more the case for women than men, for women were stuck with the Children which do to their ages were not capable of keeping up with the men when the men ran. Even the old men stayed with the women and the Children. This was do to the fact both males and females even in old age can walk huge distances if that is all they have done they whole life. Even in extreme old age people can walk huge distances till something major goes wrong with them.

Thus, while the human body can run for huge distances, it can go for even longer distances by just walking. The average person can walk 20 miles a day with ease. In fact the reason most American Countys are the size they are is do to the fact people wanted to be able to walk to the County Seat, transact whatever business was needed to be done and walk back home all in a day. You can double that distance if you skip the time needed to prepare meals and socialize.

Simply put people are design to walk more than they are design to run. Not that running is bad, it is often good, but long distance walking was the key to human's evolution not long distance running.

[LostinVA]

50. That's what most ultrarunners do

They walk/run.

And yes, you have to build yourself up to it. If you don't, you're an idiot and will get either/or discouraged and hurt really fast. I have never had an injury running over 20 years, because I am careful not to overtrain, and because I do 98% of my running on trails. Runs over 5 miles? I run/walk -- you can get way further doing that, and usually faster.

[tridim]

44. I don't buy it

I think we evolved specifically to use our minds and to use tools, not to run. We only walk upright because we needed our hands free to manipulate the environment. Our center of gravity is also way too high to be effective runners.

[happyslug]

46. Center of Gravity to high??????

If that is the basis for your position i would advise you to recheck it. While males center of gravity is in the middle of their chest, women's center of Gravity is two inches below their belly button. The reason for this is that by volume, Muscle is four times as heavy as fat and the largest muscle in Humans is the Muscle in women to force out the baby at birth (Thus a women's curves is this muscles). This makes women's center of gravity quite low and the reason a man should never do judo with a women, his center of gravity can be used by her to be tipped over, but her is so low it is hard to tip her over (You are better off manhandling her than using judo moves, but as one Judo Instructor told me years ago he found flowers, candy and jewelry were way better ways to get her on her back than any judo moves).

Anyway, our minds are our main advantage over other creatures PLUS our ability to work a a team. five 200 pound men eat way less than one 1000 pound creature and can bring in more food for the group then the 1000 pound creature can gather and eat. The general rule of thumb is as size double, food intakes quadruples do to the increase volume do to the increase size. Thus humans since they can work as a team an take on bigger objects than larger creatures and need less food than those bigger creatures (Thus the disappearance of the big cats when modern man appears on the scene about 100,000 years ago, only the Lion and Tiger survived of the really large cats).

Thus while running was important, working as a member of a team was more important and that was a product of our intelligence.

[tridim]

48. I just meant it's high relative to 4 legged creatures..

Who were specifically evolved to run fast.

[happyslug]

68. Most four legged creatures have high center of gravity

The issue is where are their center of gravity in relation to their limbs. The Center of Gravity tend to be right in the middle between the limbs. The reason is they use the enter of gravity to make quick moves left and right. The moves are not only done by shifting they front legs, but by shifting their whole body left or right as needed.

This is best seen in Humans on bicycles. Men like conventional bicycles, their center of gravity is directly between the seat and handlebars and thus they Ccan use their whole body to turn and maneuver the bicycle. Women (with much lower center of gravity) tend to want to sit more upright so that their center of gravity is not high in the air. For this reason a lot of women like recumbents for its puts their center of gravity in the seat in the middle between their limbs (Recumbents also permit more efficient use of the leg muscles).

Another example is the recent change in how we view Tyrannous Rex. In the early years of the 20th Century it was believed the tail laid on the ground and T-Rex stood upright. The reason for this was it was clear T-Rex's center of Gravity was right over its legs. Now it is believed T-Rex's tail off-set its head so T-Rex stood more like a T, with the head and tail balancing each other over the legs. This permitted quick movement left and right when needed. Again the Center of Gravity was high, but balance between the front and rear as opposed Cats and Dogs where the center tend to be in the middle.

Thus the issue is NOT high or low center of Gravity, but here is that center in relation to the limbs of the Creature we are discussing (Or in the case of flightless Birds like the Ostrich and T-Rex how does it balance the front and rear). The key is the center of gravity must be in the middle to permit quick movement left and right. In man being bipedal and standing straight up, we were NOT design for fast run and quick maneuver. Man and women are design to cover huge amount of territory of a diverse nature. We can swim and climb in addition to run and walk. This adaptability is our key to survival not quick speed.

[LostinVA]

51. Did you read the article?

[tridim]

58. Yes.. I'm not claiming we haven't evolved a bit since then

Just that early on we evolved into walking upright not to run, but instead to use our brains.

[Odin2005]

59. Upright walking is more energy-efficient then ape-style knuckle-walking

The freeing of the hands was just a side effect that was utilized by natural selection AFTER we became upright walkers. Even then, our austalopithicines were sub-par walkers because they retained a good degree of tree-climbing abillity. The transition from adaquate walking to masters of endurance occured around 1.9 million years ago with the origin of the first hominid that got a large part of it's diet from hunting, Homo erectus. Erectus was almost identical to us below the neck, while Habilis was an Australopithicine below the neck

[Krakowiak]

93. that's false

a myth that has been passed along.... that the battle of marathon messenger dropped dead after running said distance.

[hedgehog]

24. I knew a kid back in 1970 who ran cross country so he could

ruin his knees and avoid the draft!

[Kailassa]

27. It's abuse if an unfit child is forced to do exercise that causes

their body damage. And I'm not talking about just a blister or two.

My daughter was forced to run at school despite a doctor's letter pointing out she had a knee problem that precluded running. She ended up on crutches for months.

These days so many kids are unfit that they need to be individually assessed for fitness levels and grouped together with kids of a similar fitness level. When you are very unfit even a small amount of gentle exercise is tremendously beneficial, so when running is on the agenda, the least fit ones should be allowed to simply walk the distance, and gradually work up to being able to run with the others.

The human body is designed to lope long distances, and any program designed to gently develop this ability again in kids is great.

Without a love of long distance running I would never have been able to wag school as a kid, when wagging meant a 10 mile run through the forest to get home. Life was different in those days, and a mile seemed a much shorter distance than it does now. ;-)

[Bridget Dooley]

28. This is what I was thinking, too.

I was thinking of the teachers that make children run until they hurt themselves. I can see that as abuse.

[superconnected]

29. I ran long distance in track - I still love running but I fully acknowlege

that it is physical abuse to the body.

There are many people that aren't natural runners and I really don't think schools should make them - even short distances.

[darkstar7646]

31. So could football... So could cheerleading...

The concept could apply to most sports.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. When 12 year olds break the scales cuz of constant McDonald's

I can see how running would be "abuse." It is probably correct that these jumbo kids can't do cross country, or even a thirty minute jog around the gym or playing field without risking some injury or other. These exercises were not, I think, designed with the disgusting kind of food culture we have in the United States, much less the virtual culture of video games and television. They assume some minimum fitness level among twelve year olds that just isn't there anymore (needless to say, it's never the parents' fault for allowing their kids to have the bodies of unhealthy forty year olds; it's the "hormones" that did it...:eyes:...and of course, it's also "genetic," since the parents look roughly the same, and only consume two more Big Macs at a meal, and never run at all...).

Yes, it's abuse to make the fat kids run, but it's not abuse to make them so fucking fat (that was "predestined"...:eyes:).

[Binka]

57. Have I Told You Lately How Much I Love You?

Running fucking saved my life. When an emotionally abusive ex husband wanted me to kill myself I bought my first pair of running shoes. I started small with a two or three mile jog around the neighborhood and it grew to a 50 to 75 mile a week routine. I am now 47 and at 5-9 and 125 pounds the rest of my neighbors wonder why I look so good!

I have always stressed to my kids why exercise is GREAT and I lead the way by example. Letting or making a kid fat is ABUSE. Get off your fat ass people. There is no fucking excuse. NONE!

[KansDem]

35. So I was abused for 2 miles at a time?

Ran cross country in high school during the fall semester and track and field in the spring.

Enjoyed it although I never came in first (or the top 5 for that matter) :(

[NashVegas]

38. Not If It Was Elective

I think the point of the abuse angle is for involuntary cross-country.

[Ciggies and coffee]

36. Everything nowadays is just the opposite n/t

[davepc]

37. Damn, and I thought it taught me dedication, focus, and self discipline

I guess I was just abusing myself.

All that abuse I subject myself too to acquire a varsity letter, probably time better spent in front of the TV.

Better kids be fat then they get abused by exercise!

[happyslug]

45. Anything can be abuse if that is the intent

And if you read the article carefully and what several people from England wrote above you will see that the long distance cross country running being discussed in the article (Through not always in this thread) is long distance running as PUNISHMENT as opposed to exercise. Seems to be a well known form of punishment in England, much like push ups were used when I was in Basic Training (Through the Sergeants would watch over you doing the push ups and make sure you could do them as opposed to causing yourself permanent harm).

As a form of punishment long distance running can be abuse as several people have pointed out in this thread. If you can NOT capable of the distance, do to the fact you are physically unfit, to be FORCED to run that distance as punishment is abuse. You end up causing both physical and psychological damage do to the child NOT being prepared to run the distance required. Running as a punishment is the form of running the article if discussing NOT running to get in shape nor running for enjoyment, a varsity letter, or any positive reason for doing the run.

The same can be said of leaving a child watch TV and eat snacks, that can be punishment if the intend to to cause harm to the child. The real issue here is Abuse NOT running.

[T_i_B]

76. Several people from England?

Are you sure about that? The only other UK DUer's I've seen on here are yibbehobba and Dead_Parrot. And no, for the umpteenth time cross country running is NOT used as punishment in English schools. It's just that some people have a serious aversion towards distance running. However, just because you don't enjoy something does not make it an abuse of your human rights. Will you lot please stop making shit up to fit in with your agenda. :grr:

[Rex]

43. Kids are FORCED to run cross-country?

The didn't at the school I taught at last year. This sounds like BS.

[T_i_B]

74. They aren't forced to run cross country

And the article does not even say that. People on this thread are bullshitting, plain and simple.

Cross country is not used as punishment in schools. If nothing else it's totally impractical as cross country courses tend to involve running outside the school boundaries and that gives errant pupils the perfect excuse to do a runner.

Even at my old school, which had a huge playing fields our cross country involved going out of school, down into the woods (my favorite part as it was all downhill!) up a steep path between farmers fields and back up to school. In other words cross country running for us involved going across country.

[Rex]

84. I loved running cross country in HS.

That was a little sarcasm on my part. It is an ELECTIVE where I taught last year and if I remember correctly, it was the same when I was in HS back in the day. Electives are not forced on kids, it is by choice. If a school system is using it as a form of punishment, then someone needs to fire the super-intendant. I personally don't believe it either.

[pitohui]

52. it has been used to abuse

in days gone by there is no use denying that sadistic p.e. teachers would assign laps that were abusive, w. the purpose of causing physical pain and occasionally the unintended result of causing heat stroke

maybe younger people never saw this, doesn't mean it wasn't abuse or that it never happened

[Realityhack]

55. That was about my thought.

It seems to me based on the bullying example that perhapse they were talking about forced runs given as punishment.

We can all acknowlege that standing up is perfectly reasonable but that forcing someone to stand for hours without moving is not. It seems to me that this might be an innocent mistake of not providing enough information based on poor judgement of what context/shared experience people would read this in.

Of course letting you run cross country isn't abuse. But forcing you to could be.

[sofa king]

69. Absolutely. P.E. in my day was all about punishment.

Good old Mr. _______ used to present us with a clear choice practically every day. We could do whatever he told us to do, or we could run laps for the entire class. When you did run laps, you had to wear a "pity," a filthy and effeminate garment worn over gym clothes usually to distinguish between teams, but in this case so that the coach could better observe miscreant students on the field. This of course was on top of the usual law-of-the-jungle humiliation which I'm sure is standard fare in all P.E. classes even today.

I got so good at running laps that the school sent their goons to my friends and parents in an attempt to coerce me to play soccer for them, since I repeatedly refused to volunteer for a sport which I still associate with punishment.

Which suddenly leads me to a repressed rant. Nobody ever rounded up my pals and had them try to convince me to smoke reefer, drive drunk, or have premarital sex. Nobody ever used peer pressure or intimidation to get me to spend my study time in the library instead of chatting with my friends, either. No, I got that sort of shit from the fucking gym teacher, who wanted me to spend many hours a day away from my books to play with a ball that I'm not even allowed to pick up. (Jesus, rest of world! Have you learned nothing from the Irish?)

Most humans have the good sense to follow their biological instincts and not waste energy needlessly--if you hate or hated gym class, it's because you have good instincts. Nevertheless I am an admirer of athletic talent and I think that the Thorpes, Jordans, and Vicks of the world should be recognized as physical geniuses, as unique and cherishable as any budding mathematician.

So I have a proposal. Let's set up two types of schools and universities. You can take all the drill fields and other expensive sporting facilities at each school, build an unheated shack at the far end of it for learnin', and let the type A assholes beat each other up while they compete to go to a sport university, where they can then train full time to become professional athletes, instead of amoral CEOs and used car salesmen.

At the same time, you can take the school building, put 90% of the people already going there back into it, and teach them useful things about how to lead their lives. The money not diverted into sports and sporting facilities could be used for things like replacing the cracked fresnel lens in that 1959 model overhead projector.

The "jock" schools can solicit their own funding from the huge pool of boosters who prefer supporting sports over real education, and they can pick up their textbooks second hand from the "student" school across the field, since nobody is going to read them anyway. The incidents of bathroom swirlies is certain to drop in both places. And hey, if you're that rare bird who wants to do both things, just walk across the goddamned field!

That is my rant, and now I feel better.

[LostinVA]

81. I saw laps as abuse, but never cross country as abuse

[HuckleB]

54. I wouldn't go there, but...

I've been privy to a number of practice regimens, and they do verge on the ridiculous for kids this age. What's worse, many coaches do not focus on nutrition and calorie intake, leaving kids vulnerable to some very extreme weight losses. I've treated too many of these kids over the years to say that the current state of High School Cross Country is where it should be.

The secondary part of that equation is the number of eating-disordered kids who participate in the sport, but coaches are not taught what to watch out for in order to keep the kids safe.

[TrogL]

60. A friend of mine's father used cross-country running as abuse

He'd take him on long hikes way beyond what he was capable of running and he'd come home exhausted and injured.

Granted the father was abusive in other ways as well.

[w4rma]

62. Pure BS. I ran cross country in high school. It wasnt "physical abuse".nt

[Dutch]

65. Easy for you to say as someone who enjoyed cross-country running.

But the fact is, for many of those who don't and are not proficient at it, it's one of the most dreaded aspects of their school life. In fact, the standard of PE teaching in british schools is largely dreadful, in considerable part because the emphasis is far too often on bringing forward an elite of students to represent the school in pathetic borough sports events, rather than on genuinely promoting health and fitness (particularly to those who most need guidance in this area)- and some people that really should not be working with children in ANY capacity therefore become prized as games teachers who will drive forward the strong and let the rest know how useless they truly are.

Being forced to run distances outside your scope of ability, usually without even the provision of such a basic essential as simple water, can be extremely painful- and can be a deeply humiliating experience in front of braying fellow students. So sure, you force a kid to take one bout of excessive exercise once a week- but wouldn't it be infinitely better to engage kids in sport and fitness in ways that they enjoy and will follow up regularly both inside and outside school? Trudging a couple of times around the school field every wednesday does not in itself stop kids getting fat.

[LibDemAlways]

67. Totally agree, especially the part about

running distances outside of your ability. My daughter's middle school is fixated on running the mile and a half. Every kid has to do it 12 times a year timed, and numerous other times untimed. Not every kid is up for it, but the PE teachers could care less. I volunteer in the office and have seen kids come in midway through the run needing to lie down.

I'm all for physical activity, but this obsession with timed distance runs is idiotic.

[LibDemAlways]

66. My daughter's middle school makes the kids run

a timed mile and a half three times a quarter - 12 times a year. They are actually given a letter grade based on their time -- anything under 7 minutes is an "A" over 12 minutes is an "F." The school doesn't care how hot it is either. Kids who have PE first thing in the morning have a huge advantage. By afternoon the midday sun around here can push temps into the 90's. My daughter inhertited my lack of athleticism, and always comes in somewhere near the bottom of the pack. I remember walking around the track in high school, thinking that being graded on one's speed was just stupid, and my time was going to suck anyway, so why bother. Things haven't changed.

[patcox2]

70. It is, if forced on kids as punishment. Period, no discussion.

Whats to discuss here? Any harsh physical activity, whether it might be a great sport and all fine and well in another context, is torture if forced on an unwilling and probably unfit participant as a punishment.

[keroro gunsou]

71. my gym teacher

was also my football coach, so yeah, he liked us to run even in gym class. I was one of the linemen so running for me wasn't my favorite thing in the world to do. Given my bad knees my coach was mildly sympathetic, since mid-way through my junior year, he had knee surgery. Didn't let me slack off on the weight training though, and I think I've still got the school record for inclined leg press, provided some 'roid headed kid didn't beat it.

He's retiring either this year or next, and we've stayed reasonably close since I've graduated. His biggest complaint these days is the kids are looking for the proverbial short cut to everything, included physical fitness and sports. Just this year alone he had to kick 5-10 players off the JV and varsity teams for using performance enhancing drugs. Lucky for the school they've got parents with enough money and connections to keep a story like this hush-hush. He's really old school in the sense that he believes in the hard work ethic.

Meh... kids these days. They don't want to exercise and take care of themselves, then they've got no one to blame when their bodies go to shit at 25.

[Beausoir]

77. Running on concrete sidewalks around the elementary school....

that constitutes the PE "program" at my son's school. They have a gorgeous gymnasium, a so-so playground, yet running around the school is what they make the kids do.

It's boring, unimaginative and really defeating for the kids who are slow or low on fitness and stamina. It does NOTHING to help get those kids into shape.

[T_i_B]

78. That sounds bad!

Where I went to school we were lucky, we were right on the edge of town, and we could run through some wonderful woodland not too far from the Peak District National Park before turning back for home.

And even for shorter distances, come the summer time a running track was marked out on the playing fields.

Mind you, we are talking about comrehensive school here, not infants or juniors where all the schools facilities consisted of was the main assembly hall and a load of concrete around the main school building.

[IronLionZion]

79. Yup, and taking exams are "psychological abuse"

:eyes:

Growing up, my pigment challenged buddies were always shocked by what happens at my house for punishment. Of course they would just get sent to their rooms for time out, with toys and TV and video games.

[mistertrickster]

80. As a former cross-country runner, I tend to agree. Our coach had

the attitude that the best way to get in shape was ten mile runs.

Most of us were so beat up after the first few weeks of "training," we could hardly walk, let alone run. Our times went DOWN the longer the season went on, except for the guys who feather-bedded the first part of the season. They actually improved.

I saw guys tougher than me crying because of shin-splints. My daughter started running and permanently ruined her hip from over-training. She was only 17 years old at the time. Two surgeries haven't helped. The cartilage is destroyed.

Kids need more exercise, just like all of us do. But running until you collapse is not exercise.

[LostinVA]

82. Training properly means staying basically injury-free

It takes months to build up to ten miles in an injury-free way, if starting at a low baseline. MONTHS. And, running cc or on trails is the easiest on your body. The only time I've ever had injuries was road running in my youth. I do about 60 mpw right now, and the only "injury" I have right now is a bad case of chiggers. *sob*

I know people who do 100-mile races several times a year, with more than a few 50 milers and 50ks thrown in.... and they have zero injuries. One if them is in his 60's. You can do it, you just do it right.

[HuckleB]

85. Unfortunately, too many coaches don't know what they're doing.

And it can be very dangerous for the health of our kids.

[laundry_queen]

88. I totally agree.

I ended up with knee cartilage problems and shin splints as a teen because of over zealous coaches and teachers, problems that still plague me to this day.

[WindRavenX]

86. This is ridiculous

Making kids run either as punishment or making them run above their ability is cruel and the downsides outweight the good; however, to classify an entire sport as "physical abuse" is a joke.

And I HATE running-- I'm a jogger and I go for endurance over speed any day of the week. But the language surrounding the classification of XCR is dreadful.

[MrSlayer]

87. Sure, if it's involuntary.

No one was made to run cross country when in was in high school, you either went out for it or you didn't. I didn't. Forcing someone to do it would be physical abuse.

[noonwitch]

92. I agree, the real danger is female gym teachers at the Jr. High level

Psycho lesbian bitches who like to watch preteen girls take showers. At least the ones I always dealt with were like that. The teachers at the high school were not like that, and the guy's jr. high gym teacher was normal.

Not only did the crazy bitches like to watch us take showers, they also liked to try to intimidate us into risking our lives on some of that crazy gymnastics equipment. I told off both my jr. high teachers over that crap. I basically told them to flunk me, that I'd rather get an F in middle school gym than a broken bone.