Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

[IndianaGreen]

Israeli pilots 'deliberately miss' targets

Fliers admit aborting raids on civilian targets as concern grows over the reliability of intelligence

Inigo Gilmore at Hatzor Air Base, Israel
Sunday August 6, 2006
The Observer

At least two Israeli fighter pilots have deliberately missed civilian targets in Lebanon as disquiet grows in the military about flawed intelligence, The Observer has learnt. Sources say the pilots were worried that targets had been wrongly identified as Hizbollah facilities.

Voices expressing concern over the armed forces' failures are getting louder. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week: 'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?' Last week saw Hizbollah's guerrilla force, dismissed by senior Israeli military officials as 'ragtag', inflict further casualties on one of the world's most powerful armies in southern Lebanon. At least 12 elite troops, the equivalent of Britain's SAS, have already been killed, and by yesterday afternoon Israel's military death toll had climbed to 45.

As the bodies pile up, so the Israeli media has begun to turn, accusing the military of lacking the proper equipment, training and intelligence to fight a guerrilla war in Lebanon. Israel's Defence Minister, Amir Peretz, on a tour of the front lines, was confronted by troubled reserve soldiers who told him they lacked proper equipment and training.

Israel's chief of staff, Major-General Dan Halutz, had vowed to wipe out Hizbollah's missile threat within 10 days. These claims are now being mocked as rockets rain down on Israel's north with ever greater intensity, despite an intense and highly destructive air bombardment.

As one well-connected Israeli expert put it: 'If we have such good information in Lebanon, how come we still don't know the hideout of missiles and launchers?... If we don't know the location of their weapons, why should we know which house is a Hizbollah house?'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838437,00.html

[Tom Joad]

1. Bless the refuseniks, even the secret ones.

http://www.seruv.org.il/defaulteng.asp

[IndianaGreen]

2. These pilots are not cold blooded killers

They obviously care enough about innocent civilians to abort a sortie if there are doubts as to their targets. I don't think our USAF fly boys even do that anymore.

I remember there were several SAC B-52 crews that balked when they were send to bomb North Vietnam. They had serious qualms about carpet bombing civilian areas.

[Tom Joad]

15. Yes!! See "Sir, No Sir!" history of GI resistance.

[Minstrel Boy]

3. amen n/t

[EFerrari]

7. Yes. All of them. n/t

[lumpy]

20. Wow!

Good to hear this stuff.

[Truthiness Inspector]

25. Direct quotes?

Not a "source" said stuff, but direct ones?

[IndianaGreen]

31. For direct quotes you have to identify the pilot

and as we know from our own experience with our military, that can end a military career were their identities disclosed.

Agent Mike likes direct quotes.

[wryter2000]

62. Refusenicks have served jail time in the past

I think they'd be in far greater danger now if their identities became public.

[Warren Stupidity]

59. megaphone? nt.

[MsMagnificent]

81. I have that same visceral reaction

Dognose I don't like that reaction, but this whole thing just seems TOO convenient!

For WEEKS this has been going on, and to all events & purposes (outside of DU & a few blogs) the general American public and the politicians have been bending over backward to lick the Likud's... well, you know...

NOW...
Now that the aggregate of people (in the US) are finally getting their collective voices heard and a good number are protesting this immoral slaughter, the politicians --those same politicians who actually had the gall to remove the only fair language from that little AIPAC engineered JOKE presented in Congress--
(minus of course the mere eight that didn't sign on to that travesty, God Bless 'em!) are finally speaking up against what Israel is doing?

NOW that people are finally getting their opinions listened to out comes this and a few other stories about some minuscule-but-heartwarming efforts of members of the misunderstood Israeli army --and I certainly don't mean the righteous protesting done by such fine groups as Gush Shalom & others and of course the Israelis and non-Israeli Jews who are unafraid to speak out!

Now that we're finally being listened to; and after the weeks of unconcerned bloody and environmental horror:
after the deliberate targeting of fleeing civilians, Red Cross vehicles and ambulances, after the cold-blooded murder of UN Peacekeepers who had spent hours and a good 10 phone calls trying to preserve their station, their lives and their mission; after the outright slaughter of hundreds of the sick, elderly and children; after the invasion of a hospital & etc. & etc. & etc.; these stories are starting to trickle out -- and I expect many more to come. Because perhaps finally the Israeli-powers-that-be are now, FINALLY, turning their bellicose attention to their own status quo ante: damage control and catapulting propaganda to appease all those outraged? That if they, as is their wont (see USS Liberty for just one example) just continue to 'explain away' and mitigate, i.e. manipulate the US people as to how the IDF --and by logical extension Israel itself-- aren't really such bad guys after all ...just maligned and misunderstood. And still the victim.
Oh yes... words over actions, we 3rd millennial Americans seem to believe the former and ignore the latter! And that's no secret that needs to be stolen.

So now we have just two, unnamed members of the IDF military popping up (& God Bless them if it's true!) and we're supposed to go all weak in the knees?

Any why NOW? Why not before the protesters were finally heard?

It's a touch too convenient, and it just doesn't sit right.
I sure wish it did.

I dunno... perhaps I'm too conditioned to the hypocrisy of our everyday US media and our everyday politicians and the everyday Israeli lobby in the US... but it just doesn't feel right to me. No, of course that's no proof either; and truly I'd be more than happy to be proved wrong!

The absolute worst of it is the SIN of being put in the position where one doesn't --almost can't-- trust in the basic innate goodness of just plain people, whoever/wherever they may be.

Of course it's wrong, and of course there are good people ... but the jaded suspicion of GIYUS et.al. style propaganda coupled with the enveloping, overwhelming evil (yes, evil -- and stating that belief is NOT a defense of Hezbollah!) that occurred these past weeks tends to persuade one, even illogically, that it just couldn't be true. :(

[me b zola]

44. Amen

[Zhade]

67. Those who refuse to bomb civilians are heroes.

Those that urge them to commit murder are monsters.

[TomInTib]

4. "flawed intelligence", my ass

This is CYA all the way.

There is NO better intelligence in the ME than that of the Israelis.

This is a direct affront to any of us who have ever been involved in any ops such as these.

Bullshit, bullshit, bullshit

[Misskittycat]

8. You did not give enough information to establish your

experience and credentials in "any ops such as these" or with Israeli intelligence or re Mideast intelligence to make such a blanket, inflammatory statement.

Even if you can provide more background for why you are qualified to comment on this, it is still your opinion only. It is not based on first-hand experience with all the particulars of this situation, and such a sweeping negative generalization is inappropriate.

[TomInTib]

13. Forgive me (please)

I come from another place (northernmost Vietnam and westward into Laos with SEAL Team 3 attached to the 2nd Marine - long-range recon and extraction - '69-72). Not to mention Panama '89.

Yeah, I am probably talking out of my ass.

I am a life-long student, devotee and practitioner of all matters regarding this sort of action.

Maybe I could use some up-to-date enlightenment from someone actually involved in this sort of ops.

Could you shed some personally connected light on this for me?

I am getting old and would really appreciate some enlightenment on this from someone who has been there and knows a lot more than do I on matters such as this.

[Misskittycat]

18. Thank you. n/t

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[HamdenRice]

61. TominTib, can I ask you a question about your service?

First, thanks for your service to the country.

Here's the question. My impression of Vietnam Vets is that their service tended to make them more liberal if they were draftees, but that many Vets in the most committed kinds of groups, like SEALs, LURPS and Green Berets, are still pretty right wing or even crazy right wingers today. I assume you are not because you are here on DU

How did your service shape your political views? Were you conservative during the Panama operation era? Or were you always a Democrat?

[Zhade]

68. Gah, you were involved in Panama?

My dad was, too. I've never been happier he was just a flight engineer on AC-130s as I was when I watched the footage of all those dead civilians documented in The Panama Deception.

This is not an attack, but a question: how do liberal guys like yourself deal with knowing that happened? I haven't talked to my dad about it, and am not sure I ever could without hurting him (by bringing back bad memories).

You don't have to answer if you don't feel comfortable. I'm probably out of line even to ask, but I can't help being curious.

[MsMagnificent]

78. self delete

legitimate comment, I still hope to post it
but I seem to have mixed up my response to whom...
Apologies.

[Truthiness Inspector]

27. "flawed intelligence my ass" LOL

Who are the sources, speaking of flawed intelligence? Names?

Has it occurred to you that the info provided in this article is "flawed" and unsourced?

[TomInTib]

30. Prezactly

this is all back-fire.

Psyops 101

[Truthiness Inspector]

32. So the answer is no named sources

But we should gobble this story up and accept it as truth.

[TomInTib]

34. Didn't you get the memo?

Fuck 'em

Sorry, but as I get older I tend to tell it like I see it.

[Truthiness Inspector]

36. As do I

I like named sources, however.

[IndianaGreen]

35. Okay, bud, here is an example where there are no named sources

Political sources in Jerusalem said Saturday night that Israel received assurances through diplomatic channels that UNIFIL will be bolstered by quality troops from France.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746632.html

"It does not say immediate cessation of violence," the official said, speaking on condition of anonymity because the draft had not yet been made public.

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/746632.html

Are you going to "gobble this story up and accept it as truth," or is the story so far off the talking points you are trying to adhere to that you are clueless as to what to say other than a lame "any direct quotes"?

[Truthiness Inspector]

39. I like named sources

you and Binka do not. That is sad that you don't like to be able to confirm info, and further that you chastise me for asking.

[IndianaGreen]

40. Bush also likes named sources

He wants to know who disclosed to the NY Times the story about the NSA warrantless eavesdropping.

[IndianaGreen]

45. You might as well leave DU and stop reading news stories

Here is another example in which there are no named sources, this one from Afghanistan:

"The men are knackered - they are on the brink of exhaustion," said one senior officer. "They are under considerable duress and have suffered great hardship."

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/06/nafg06.xml&DCMP=EMC-new_06082006

[IndianaGreen]

47. Here is another unnamed source, about Blair

Authoritative sources said that Mr Blair is also ready for a fresh fight with his Labour critics, both inside and outside his Cabinet, by seeking to push through a fresh round of "modernising" reforms in health and education.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2006/08/06/nblair06.xml

[TheMadMonk]

53. Personally I prefer CREDIBLE sources.

Snow, Bush, Cheney are all named sources, but I doubt you'd find many here who believe much of anything coming out of their mouths.

The Guardian is not the National Inquirer. The author of the article is satisfied that his sources are genuine. So, absent some demonstrable evidence that the author is acting wittingly (or unwittingly) as a propoganda mouthpiece, or has shown unacceptable bias in the past, I'll take his word that some Israeli pilots have confessed to suffering pangs of conscience.

[Binka]

66. Please Do Not Put Words In My Mouth You In NO Way Speak For Me

Indiana Green is pointing out that YOU enjoy selective confirmed information when it suits your agenda. When it does not you dismiss it. When it does you embrace it. Hypocrisy much?

[Ms. Clio]

50. do a search on this one's first posts

see what it actually knows about valid sources.

[Name removed]

69. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

72. yes, I agree n/t

[Binka]

37. That is A Good Word Gobble

It is a very apt word for you to use.

[wryter2000]

63. This is a reliable paper

There have been refuseniks in Israel for decades. I have no reason to doubt this story.

[Oversea Visitor]

5. You not fighting terrorist

You not fighting an army
You fighting the masses
The people

Why am I not surprise
Why dont you come outright and say it
This is a war on the people of Lebanon.

We can pretend all we want
But in the end reality is a bitch.

Army are for fighting army
You do not fight the people
You try to win their heart and mind.
Mistreating them is the worst ever solution to the problems
The only way to win is to win their mind and heart
OR TO KILL EVERYONE OF THEM

[Poll_Blind]

6. Those pilots are very, very brave men. To spare innocents...

...the sword is a glimmer of hope by a few pilots seen in passing from the murky sea of inhumanity that Israel has flooded over itself in the last decade or so.

  These pilots are potentially putting their careers on the line and if "found out" could suffer greatly, career-wise.

  And the dumbshits on this board who support so unconditionally Olmert's disproportionate military aggression. They harm the Jewish state so deeply with their unconditional support of his conservative government.

  DUII. Democrats Unless It's Israel. May your mouths be filled with the dust that fills your hearts.

PB

[NorthernSun]

12. I agree

I don't know why a few here so adamantly support the Likud Party. No matter what they do. I expect it from Bush but not from the DEMOCRATIC Underground. Rabin was a peacemaker so Likud had him assassinated.

[Poll_Blind]

17. They support Olmert's conservative government because, frankly...

...any way of thinking of this situation that is something more than reduced to absolute black and white scares them, literally, scares them shirtless. Look at it from a Diasporic Jew's perspective: Of course you don't want to see another Shoah happen. Sure, Olmert's government is conservative and militaristic but, shit, if you somehow fight against Olmert and all the right-wing rhetoric is right well then you've just done the unthinkable- helped another Shoah happen against the Jews.

  For Diaporic Jews, Democratic ones anyway, who are afraid to look into their hearts and ask "Should only nation on Earth which claims exclusivity to the Jewish soul really be acting like this?" must reject all of their dearly-held beliefs and toe the Israeli government's line.

  Whether it's helping innocent Arabs or butchering them on Channel 2, they will nod and say "Yes, this is right. This is correct." They have been sold or programmed that questioning Israel is a slippery slope which always leads into Jews in a oubliette (or worse) instead of a stronger Jewish nation.

  The trick here is what they do if an Israeli government starts persecuting Jews for their liberal behavior- if Israel slides even further to the right, say, in 15 years or so when all those Shas/Likud children grow up.

  "Yes, this is right. This is correct."

  Insanity via willful ignorance.

PB

[IndianaGreen]

24. May I point out that the Labour leader, Amir Peretz, is Defense Minister

This is one war that does not have Likud fingerprints.

[Poll_Blind]

48. Likud by any other name is still very much Likud. Sharon broke...

...with the Likud primarily on the matter of the settlements, to my knowledge. Tzipi, second-generation Likud, Sharon and Olmert...all hard-core Likud "superstars". Peretz may be Labor but there's a little asterisk behind that. If it wasn't for the dismal showing of his own political party in the last few years he would not be back in Labor. And he's not doing jack about the settlements. Olmert did get his ass handed to him a few days ago for saying something to the effect that "Winning this war will allow us to remove the settlements" which is another lie in a long line of lies groced as thwarted good intentions.

  This war, in my opinion, is not just covered with Likud fingerprints but arguably sp disproportionate because of Olmert's bid to drain the Likud's supporters with Kadima by out-doing Bibi who was raking him over the coals for Israel's targeting by Quassams. Every time I've seen Tzipi next to him, it looks like she's bitten into a lemon. When this is over, she's going to use her status to get back into Likud just like Peretz begged his way back into Labor after he was forced out and formed his own party.

PB

[Misskittycat]

33. That's just the point; "a few here" may support Likud. A lot of us

support Israel, but do not the Likud party, or this Kadima party action - and not everything that Israel does.

If things had been more civil around here, and less ugly, perhaps more of "us" would have felt comfortable expressing these views, and explaining them in detail. The recent toxic atmosphere here -- including posts like "all Israel supporters think...." -- or worse yet -- "all supporters of Israel are" -- has been so surprising and alarming to lots of us that we were thrown off balance.

Most Democrats, most progressives, do not see things in black and white only. We do not park our progressive principles at the door when it comes to Israel. But, as I explained in another thread about a day ago, most Jews outside Israel have a special, deep emotional bond with Israel. It is probably unique and I don't expect others to necessary understand it or even approve it -- only to accept that it exists, and that it's not going away.

The concept of loyalty to one's country, one's locality, one's people, one's local sports team, one's school, etc. is a human trait that appears to be prevalent across societies and cultures. It is deeply ingrained and highly emmotional. Often it's a good thing: most people would not commit treason against their own country. Sometimes, it's a bad thing: ultra-nationalism can be dangerous.

But it's there.

[IndianaGreen]

38. Yes, ultra-nationalism can be dangerous

and I will be the first to admit that there has been a lot of ugliness lately, driven by frustration and anger on both sides of the debate. I have done my share!

There has been some gems:

"Why doesn't Israel Work for Peace" (by holocaust survivor)

posted by annabanana

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x226934

and I have posted a couple of interesting articles on the war in Lebanon, one from WaPO, the other from Haaretz:

In Israel, Questions About the Conflict

Public Support, Once Nearly Unanimous, Begins to Fray as Toll Rises

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=132&topic_id=2758938&mesg_id=2758938

Ending the neoconservative nightmare

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=124&topic_id=142003&mesg_id=142003

[Poll_Blind]

49. Arguably not just ultra-nationalism but ultra-ethnic-nationalism. n/t

PB

[0007]

54. At its best...

Patriotism is your conviction that this country is superior to all others because you
were born in it. : William Shakespeare

[Crunchy Frog]

56. George Bernard Shaw.

:hide:

[Zhade]

73. A special bond with Israel, while understandable, does not excuse...

...the support for Israel's ongoing war crimes.

Many otherwise-progressive people DO park their principles at the door when it comes to Israel. I've seen it on this very website, and I'm certain you must have seen it as well. There have been double-standard explaining-away of the targeting of Lebanese civilian areas and all manner of vile rationalizations of Israel's actions.

There have also been some regrettable anti-Israel words, too - and I mean real anti-Israel rhetoric, like "Israelis must pay for supporting their government" (when, of course, quite a large number of Israelis are smart and courageous enough to NOT support Israel's brutal response to a deadly kidnapping).

I agree on the currently-poisonous atmosphere, and I think part of it is that the I/P issue, which leads into this issue, has been locked up in the dungeon for years, where people can ignore the bad things that the Israeli government has done, thus getting only Israel's good side, as that is what our press covers (that, and terrorism by Arabs, with a correlative lack of positive news about Arabs).

[Lindacooks]

89. You're right, not being a Jew, I cannot possibly understand the

connection. I try to, and because of the Jewish history in the last 100 years, I have an inkling of understanding.

But there's a difference between blindly supporting someone or a state, and being open enough to question whether that person or that state is doing the right thing - for themselves as well as others. That is what true love is - willingness to stand up against wrongs even if it costs you in the short run, because you know that following that wrong path is going to hurt everybody in the end.

I've had to do it with members of my family - not 'tough love', but being honest enough to tell them they are hurting themselves. I would never just blindly support the actions of someone I love just because I love them. Rationality and logical thinking have their place too.

[Zhade]

71. Supporting Israel's actions in Lebanon is actually anti-Semitic.

Clearly, the war crimes Israel is committing is not making Israel any safer, but places that country in MORE danger.

Thus, those who support these war crimes must hate Israel and want her to be destroyed.

(Or maybe they're just uninformed idiots.)

[Misskittycat]

79. Try rephrasing your title to something like "supporting Israel's

actions in Lebanon is not making Israel any safer, but places that country in more danger."

But the way you've phrased it does not lead to a good, productive, civil discussion. Your title is highly provocative and the phrase "actually anti-Semitic" is a bit nonsensical in this context.

Also, "the war crimes Israel is committing" is an unduly hot-button way of furthering a civil and legitimate discussion on the key point I think you're trying to make: that is, that a true friend of Israel should not blindly approve some of the actions in this current Israel/Lebanon/Hizbollah mess.

Somewhere else, in an entirely separate thread, it may be appropriate for you to calmly a) express your opinion on what is a "war crime," (b) the basis for your alleged knowledge of the facts actually going on right now; and (c) your opinion that some current actions of Israel meet that definition.

But this particular thread is hurt by the way you've presented it. You've acknowledged elsewhere that some posters' inflammatory language has poisoned the atmosphere but your continued use of language that you must know is "hot-button" is counterproductive to your main point. It instantly puts people on the defensive and detracts from your ideas and credibility.

Oh -- and you might want to lose the "idiots" reference as well.

[Zhade]

83. Perhaps you're correct on the 'idiots' thing.

I disagree with the rest of your analysis, as these are war crimes per groups like the UN and HRW, so I feel on safe ground calling them as they are.

I also don't see how my subject is nonsensical. I explained why it's anti-Semitic. Flamboyant language, sure, but I really do suspect a lot of people supporting Israel's unjustified indiscriminate bombing of Lebanese civilians are people who don't really care about Israel, and may even hate the country.

I do want to thank you for your civil tone, so unlike some of your colleagues. It's a welcome addition to the dialogue not to be called an anti-Semite just because I tend to dislike Israel's killing innocent civilians.

I'll try to temper my criticisms' tone. Thank you for the exchange.

[Misskittycat]

85. Well, let's leave it at that, then, shall we? n/t

[Zhade]

86. I think your call for a less abrasive tone is warranted.

We could all use that these days.

[EFerrari]

9. I wonder how many Israelis are saying "no, I will not serve"?

With our managed media, we may never know.

But to all the refusniks, thank you for your courage and sanity.

We will try our best to support you.

Thank you.

[Misskittycat]

11. There are many courageous and sane people there. Like in

the U.S., the policymakers control what happens. They probably have as much direct control of their government as we have of ours.

Bear in mind something about the "polls" taken that show high Israeli support for the government's actions. When a country is putting its fighting forces in harm's way, the population usually rallies overwhelmingly. That happened in the U.S. after 9-11. Even that moron Bush's popularity rose sky high. It's a matter of basic patriotic solidarity that you find in most countries.

[EFerrari]

14. I don't for a moment believe the propaganda that most Israelis

support this slaughter.

Not for a moment.

:hi:

[Tom Joad]

16. There are those who make it public, and my counter on my website

says there are 1,666 of these public ones.

[EFerrari]

19. Let's sing out our support for these people

who are trying to do right, Tom.

Let's do that in every way we can.

:hi:

[IndianaGreen]

29. These are not refusniks like Yonatan Shapiro, who is quoted in article

These are professional soldiers that want to carry out their mission, but are troubled by the orders and intelligence they are being given. What they see is not what they are being told.

Shapiro said: 'Some pilots told me they have shot at the side of targets because they're afraid people will be there, and they don't trust any more those who give them the coordinates and targets.'

He added: 'One pilot told me he was asked to hit a house on a hill, which was supposed to be a place from where Hizbollah was launching Katyusha missiles. But he was afraid civilians were in the house, so he shot next to the house ...

'Pilots are always being told they will be judged on results, but if the results are hundreds of dead civilians while Hizbollah is still able to fire all these rockets, then something is very wrong.'

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/world/story/0,,1838437,00.html

[EFerrari]

41. People of conscience.

That is where the groups overlap.

:hi:

[Palladin]

10. One Israeli cabinet minister said last week (!!!)

'We gave the army so much money. Why are we getting these results?' LOL LOL Wodda tough warrior here....
In battle, the moral is to the physical as three is to one. - Napoleon

[MrPrax]

21. 'We gave the army so much money."

One Israeli cabinet minister said, who sounds about as coherent as this clown, the Israeli Ambassador to the UK:

Exhibit #1 - Journalists who ask questions

The first one is an astounding exchange and part of the reason many of us in North America are not getting the full picture on Israel's political system. If politicians are bad here, it could be worst...check out a REAL network interview!!

Brasscheck TV -- Youtube link

[muriel_volestrangler]

52. That journalist has had death threats because of his coverage

Jon Snow, of Channel 4, recently told a meeting that he had received death threats over his coverage of the Middle East.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1826845,00.html

[Truthiness Inspector]

23. Any direct quotes? n/t

[Warren Stupidity]

60. any new thoughts on this subject? nt.

[Zhade]

74. Megaphone probably hasn't updated yet.

NT!

[madrchsod]

26. if the hizbollah is using trucks

the trucks will be gone by the time the planes get there. the hizbollah are using remote firing and two different positions to fire at one target. there is no way the planes can get to a target in time to get the bad guys. they could target an area but what kind of info can they rely on...
killing the bad guys is one thing and killing the innocent is another.

[mom cat]

28. More about targets

Also at the link in the OP:

Meron Rappoport, a former editor at the Israeli daily Haaretz and military analyst, criticised the air force's methods for selecting targets: 'The impression is that information is sometimes lacking. One squadron leader admitted the evidence used to determine attacks on cars is sometimes circumstantial - meaning that if people are in an area after Israeli forces warned them to leave, the assumption is that those left behind must be linked to Hizbollah ... This is problematic, as aid agencies have said many people did not leave ... because they could not, or it was unsafe to travel on the roads thanks to Israel's aerial bombardment.'

These revelations raise further serious questions about the airstrike in Qana last Sunday that left dozens dead, which continues to arouse international outrage. From the outset, the Israeli military's version of events has been shrouded in ambiguity, with the army releasing a video it claims shows Katyusha rockets being fired from Qana, even though the video was dated two days earlier, and claiming that more than 150 rockets had been fired from the location.

Some IDF officials have continued to refer vaguely to Katyushas being launched 'near houses' in the village and to non-specific 'terrorist activity' inside the targeted building. In a statement on Thursday, the IDF said it the air force did not know there were civilians in what they believed was an empty building, yet paradoxically blamed Hizbollah for using those killed as 'human shields'.

Human rights groups have attacked the findings as illogical. Amnesty International described the investigation as a 'whitewash', saying Israeli intelligence must have been aware of the civilians'.

[Zhade]

75. "which continues to arouse international outrage" - which it should!

Those people were murdered. The Israeli government lied more than once, changing its story even to bizarre incomprehensible obvious bullshit like the paradoxical story indicated above.

Of course there's outrage, and rightfully so.

[anotherdrew]

42. and where is the 'bad intelligence' coming from?

weren't forces only just recently crowing about how the NSA was giving them intelligence info?

[IndianaGreen]

46. The NSA is good at intercepting our cell phone conversations

They are lousy at what they are supposed to be doing (before Bush became dictator, anyway).

[Ghost Dog]

55. They are flying many drones (cameras with wings) over the area

constantly (cf. Fisk and other reporters on the ground). These images are being interpreted by some department. I doubt there are many intelligence ops on the ground. - perhaps there's an over-reliance on technology?

Presumably, if they wanted to (and if genuinely realistic), they could provide such images as evidence to at least partially justify the targetting in specific cases.

Of course, such evidence could also quite easily be faked.

[IndianaGreen]

57. "perhaps there's an over-reliance on technology?"

They are using American technology, and we know how much that same technology has helped us kill an entire legion of Al-Qaeda's Number 2s.

[Purveyor]

43. Very good find. Thank you for posting! eom

[wakeme2008]

51. 45 dead troops... This sounds right

funny how OUR MSM do not post this...

[jpkenny]

58. How long before the good Israeli soldiers turn on their leaders and

refuse anymore of this carnage? Not all the soldiers in Israel agree with what is taking place.

[sweatyk]

64. Israel deliberately sparing Hizballah rockets?

From this morning's Reliable Sources (CNN):

And joining us now here Washington Anne Compton who covers the White House for ABC News, and Thomas Ricks, Pentagon reporter for "The Washington Post" and author of the new book "Fiasco: The American Military Adventure in Iraq."

Tom Ricks, you've covered a number of military conflicts, including Iraq, as I just mentioned. Is civilian casualties increasingly going to be a major media issue? In conflicts where you don't have two standing armies shooting at each other?

THOMAS RICKS, REPORTER, "THE WASHINGTON POST": I think it will be. But I think civilian casualties are also part of the battlefield play for both sides here. One of the things that is going on, according to some U.S. military analysts, is that Israel purposely has left pockets of Hezbollah rockets in Lebanon, because as long as they're being rocketed, they can continue to have a sort of moral equivalency in their operations in Lebanon.

KURTZ: Hold on, you're suggesting that Israel has deliberately allowed Hezbollah to retain some of it's fire power, essentially for PR purposes, because having Israeli civilians killed helps them in the public relations war here?

RICKS: Yes, that's what military analysts have told me.

KURTZ: That's an extraordinary testament to the notion that having people on your own side killed actually works to your benefit in that nobody wants to see your own citizens killed but it works to your benefit in terms of the battle of perceptions here.

RICKS: Exactly. It helps you with the moral high ground problem, because you know your operations in Lebanon are going to be killing civilians as well.

KURTZ: All right.

[breakaleg]

65. maybe the tide is finally turning...

my favorite part:
---
So far none of the pilots has publicly refused to fly missions but some are wobbling, according to Shapiro. He said: 'Their target could be a house firing a cannon at Israel and it could be a house full of children, so it's a real dilemma; it's not black and white. But ... I'm calling on them to refuse, in order save our country from self-destruction.'
---
if some in Israel are starting to realize that international opinion matters, maybe things will change.

[jonnyblitz]

70. Israel will have to get Alan Dershowitz to come over and

"swiftboat" them like he did the Israeli Airforce refusniks in the past.

[bvar22]

76. Hmmmm...."Faulty Intelligence"....

Where have I heard that used as an excuse for War Crimes..???

Deja Vu.

[IntiRaymi]

77. Good for them, but I have to ask:

Has their collective guilty conscience resulted in a lower rate of innocents being killed in Lebanon?
Can this sort of thing be tracked?
If not, this would happen to be yet-another propaganda item, meant to humanize the aggressor in this disaster, which is Israel.

[cali]

80. There are two guilty parties here

H'zbollah don't forget, is trying to kill as many Israelis as possible.

[IntiRaymi]

82. And Israel is trying to kill as many Lebanese as possible.

Haven't you been following this war?

[cali]

84. Why don't you try reading some of my numerous and

informed posts to find out? And consider losing the snark. You suck at it.

[Zhade]

87. It might help to not assume people don't know Hezbollah...

...is also attacking civilians.

It almost sounds like an accusation that one doesn't care about those Israelis, which is probably an unfounded assumption in most cases, and doesn't advance the dialogue.

I'm trying to do my part to temper my tone, and would hope others would consider doing the same.

[The Stranger]

88. Well put.

[Zhade]

90. Thanks. I'm tired of all the anger and hate.

I just want the killing to stop, now.

[cali]

92. There was absolutely no

accusation in my post about people not knowing or caring about H'zbollah's attacks on Israeli citizens.

[praeclarus]

91. i hope it's true...

... this is a ray of hope for some sanity
returning to the world.