Predictions of civil war coming true, troops say

[leftchick]

http://www.columbiatribune.com/2006/Aug/20060805News020.asp

BAGHDAD, Iraq - While U.S. politicians and generals in Washington debate the possibility of civil war in Iraq, many U.S. officers and enlisted men who patrol Baghdad say it has already begun.

Army troops in and around the capital interviewed in the last week cite a long list of evidence that the center of the nation is coming undone: Villages have been abandoned by Sunni and Shiite Muslims; Sunni insurgents have killed thousands of Shiites in car bombings and assassinations; Shiite militia death squads have tortured and killed hundreds, if not thousands, of Sunnis; and when night falls, neighborhoods become open battlegrounds.

"There’s one street that’s the dividing line. They shoot mortars across the line and abduct people back and forth," said 1st Lt. Brian Johnson, a 4th Infantry Division platoon leader from Houston. Johnson, 24, was describing the nightly violence that pits Sunni gunmen from Baghdad’s Ghazaliyah neighborhood against Shiite gunmen from the nearby Shula district.

As he spoke, the sights and sounds of battle grew: first, the rat-a-tat-tat of fire from AK-47 assault rifles, then the heavier bursts of PKC machine guns, and finally the booms of mortar rounds crisscrossing the night sky and crashing down onto houses and roads.

[Olney Blue]

1. So why are we keeping them there? Bring them home NOW.

[izzie]

3. Bush will not face the fact he was wrong sooooooooo

He is going to stuff our way of life on them even if he has to kill all of us and them to do it. It is called I have the power.

[jpkenny]

23. The US military is neither helping the Iraqis or themselves.

If Iraq cannot be secured and the violence stopped with both the US military and the Iraqi military present how on earth do we expect them to bring order alone? There is not going to be a time when the Iraqi military can stand up UNTIL we leave and stop all our false flag and special ops that are keeping the shit going.

[EFerrari]

2. Are Westerners no longer abducted in Iraq because they've all

left? I just realized I haven't heard about any kidnappings of Westerners for a long time. And of course, the kidnapping of Iraqis is barely even mentioned.

[krkaufman]

10. I expect that is the case.

We get very little actual "man on the street" news because no one, journalists included, dare to venture outside of the Green Zone.

[lpbk2713]

4. But .... but ....

Wasn't it over three years ago (May 1, 2003) that Captain Flightsuit told us "Mission Accomplished"? If we are still there it must be that the real "mission" was to lead them to civil war.



Link: http://www.cnn.com/2003/ALLPOLITICS/05/01/bush.carrier.landing/

[sueragingroz]

5. I'm going to go out on a limb here

And I'll probably piss a lot of people off by saying this, but chanting "bring our troops home" as Iraq falls apart is, IMHO selfish.

Even though not every american voted for Bush or support his policies, all americans are taxpayers and they indirectly support this war by submitting their returns and, it could be argued, by consuming energy and goods a plenty - creating the energy crisis that sparks many of these wars in the first place...

To pull out now without having some sort of alternative to restore peace and order in Iraq would be a war crime. America and its coalition of the willing INVADED that country and tore it to pieces. No matter how much you want your troops home, you have to accept responsibility for what your country's leadership has done.

The life of an american soldier is not worth more than the life of an Iraqi civilian. And it's civilians who are dying and who will continue to die if the american military throws up its hands at the mess and pulls out.

You don't get to bomb a civilized nation back to the stone age and then think that you have the luxury of leaving these folks to their own misery. That is inhumane... and I daresay... racist.

Call it an international perspective, call it what you will, but it is my view on this blind plea to bring troops home without looking at the bigger picture and the long term ramifications of this invasion.

I hate to quote Colin Powell, but in this case, the non-existant Pottery Barn rule does apply. Your government broke it. Now fix it.

I sincerely hope that there is new leadership in the U.S. and that this leadership recognizes the war crimes of their predecessors and does something constructive to fix it instead of tucking tail and running...

[Boneman]

6. Baloney!!!!!! There are other nations, those with honor and

dignity that will help bring Iraq back to life. Every day the US stays in Iraq is just one more wasted day.

[sueragingroz]

8. and that was the response that I pretty much expected

And its that response that will ultimately bring doom to the american way of life...

Oh how I wish you could understand...

[acmavm]

9. If a particular 'thing' (the US) is the root cause of the problem, it is

nothing short of insanity to insist that this 'thing' (the US) MUST be part of the solution to the problem.

I don't know, maybe at one time we could have been part of the solution to the violence and sectarian strife, but I think we sort of blew the shit out of our credibility by using white phosphorus on the civilians of Falluja, incarcerating and abusing the people we penned up in Abu Graib, killing everything that moved at every checkpoint we set up in the country, tried to force Ahmed Chalabi on them (I think this was a big boo boo), actually forcing his cousin Allawi on them (another stupid move), destroying their entire infrastracture and never helping them to rebuild it, giving contract for EVERYTHING to American or British contractors, going straight to protect the Oil Ministry when we invaded and to hell with everything else, and on an on and on and on.

Do you think these people, with a history that goes back thousands of years beyond our own 230+ year, is so stupid that they ever come to trust us? We've been the vulture over the carcass of their dying country for three years. Time to get real.

[krkaufman]

14. Agreed. I see very little change that "we" (i.e. the US) ...

... can be the agent of stabilization at this point. (We lost Iraq within the first 3 months post-invasion.) And I'm not sure the international community would be willing to put their citizens in harm's way, especially if the US tries to retain decision-making control.

I'm just not sure that 100% immediate withdrawal of US forces is the *only* option, and that there isn't any other political compromise that can be reached to stabilize the region with the minimal amount of additional bloodshed? (e.g. segmentation of Iraq into 3 autonomous countries with deployment of *accepted* foreign security forces within each new country, expulsion of US "diplomats" and command control and a massive increase of international or Middle East-only forces to stabilize the country)

[sueragingroz]

19. reparations would be a great start

Admitting to the war crime and paying reparations along with bringing your war criminals to justice...

Those things to a long way to winning hearts and minds back. Trust me, folks will change their minds if the mighty americans admit to the error and make honest attempts to rectify. The international community has forgiven your country over and over and over again - as evidenced by the unified manner in which the entire planet came behind you on 9/11 despite the College of the Americas and Vietnam and the myriad other nastiness that the US has participated in since WWII ended.

All you need is a courageous leader with the support of the american people who is willing to do the hard work.

[sueragingroz]

17. that's still not an excuse to abdicate responsibility

Saying that we screwed up and they hate us is not a reason to walk away...

Pay for blue hats to go in and rebuild. Pay reparations. Do something to get the good will back.

That has to happen.

[acmavm]

22. Reparations? Fine. We owe the civilians in Iraq more than we can ever

pay back. Money doesn't even begin to do them justice.

But our presence has got to end. We started this mess. The hate and resentment won't die for years. Decades. Generations.

We have got to leave and let a more credible body take over and try to solve the problem we (the bush** administration) created.

[sueragingroz]

24. I think that if you pay reparations and help to rebuild

that would be justice.

Ask yourself, deep down inside, why you want the US troops out. Does it have to do with the Iraqi's?

[NickB79]

11. Say I break into your house one night

I'm much bigger than you and have a powerful gun with me. I tie you up, beat you up, shoot your dog and children, rape your wife, and trash your house. Then, I untie you and say "Hey, sorry about that, let me help you clean this mess up." Would you want me to stick around in that house and work side-by-side with me putting things back in order, or would you want me to get as far away as possible?

There are some things the US CANNOT fix. We can't fix the 100,000 dead civilians in Iraq. We can't fix the rapes, beatings and looting that occurred. We can't fix the anger the Iraqi people feel against the US. We can keep troops there for 5 years and let this simmering low-scale civil war continue to pick off people a few at a time, and it will still devolve into a full-scale civil war the moment we leave.

[sueragingroz]

18. you break into my house...

I can go down the street and stay with a neighbour. One that has power and water and access to medical care.

Sorry - that analogy doesn't wash.

[NickB79]

26. That's what many Iraqis are doing

"I can go down the street and stay with a neighbour. One that has power and water and access to medical care."

That is an appropriate analogy to the 850,000+ Iraqis who have already fled their country for fear of their lives. You bolstered my own argument, thank you.

[krkaufman]

12. I have a similar problem with supporting full, immediate withdrawal

I know that "stay the course" is insane nonsense (because we neither have enough forces or the necessary strategy to stabilize the country), but 100% immediate withdrawal will likely result in 100s of thousands dead, as well. However immoral war is, it's certainly no less immoral to completely destabilize a country and then leave its 25 million citizens to fight to the death for control.

The problem is ... The US is having no real debate or discussion on what, if anything, can be done to stabilize Iraq.

Who can answer, or even estimate, the following questions...

How many humans will die if we do a 100% immediate pullout?
How many humans will die if we "stay the course"?
What is the relative value of an Iraqi life and that of a US citizen?

I don't give a shxx whether Iraq is "free" or theocratic, at this point. I simply want its citizens to have the right to live, and have confidence that an open and free society can evolve over time, naturally and not through military force. Hell, Iran was headed in that direction until Dimson chose to invade Iraq.

The one thing I know that must happen is we must rapidly decrease our consumption of oil. Like lives depended on it.

[sueragingroz]

16. I'm all for an international presence

So long as SOME sort of plan for stability is put together instead of a whole-hog pullout with no thought to the ramifications.

If that happens, americans will be hated in even more places than they are now.

The one thing I know that must happen is we must rapidly decrease our consumption of oil. Like lives depended on it.

- truer words have never been spoken.

[karlrschneider]

20. The "choice" may be a classical Hobson:

1) we leave and thousands of Iraqis die, or
2) we stay, thousands of Iraqis and thousands of Americans die.

:eyes:

[krkaufman]

21. Right. That's what I'm thinking.

I just want to hear and see our leaders, and those in the international community, really putting some effort into determining -- if it's remotely possible -- whether either of these paths is likely to produce less bloodshed, or if another escape route exists.

The problem we have now is, this Administration and its toadie Congress are shutting-out any actual debate or discussion.

[pokercat999]

27. There may be a third choice. The division of Iraq into

three separate countries. A truly huge military force made up of forces from several countries sponsored by the UN, authorized to eliminate ALL weapons in Iraq from handguns to machine guns to RPG's (you get the idea). All aerial bombardment to cease immediately. This force would be paid for by America and would replace all American forces. All American companies would be eliminated from Iraq. It would be less painful and probably less expensive to both America and Iraq than "stay the course".

We did break it even if it was previously "cracked" we now have the moral and legal responsibly to fix it as best we can. However keeping American troops and American corporations in Iraq would be a continued unlawful and immoral injustice to our troops and the Iraqi people.

[tabasco]

25. www.goarmy.com

They still take you up to 42 years old.

You sound just like the kind of dedicated troop the Army needs right now.

A regular policeman of the world!!

Godspeed!

[Oak2004]

28. I agree, but I don't think we can pay our debt with the military.

I think keeping our military there is simply contributing to the problem. Any stabilization forces will have to come from the Iraqis themselves or from the international community, because every day we're there we make things worse.

I however do think that we owe the Iraqi people reparations, in the form of money and civilian technical support.

[w4rma]

32. It is both impossible and futile for the USA to fix this mess, anymore.

The Republican Party blew it. The window has closed. We are no longer liked well enough to fix the mess. And our leadership couldn't lead out of a paper bag.

Just like another poster said, every day we are in Iraq is one more day that Iraq will be in civil war.

As a note, Democrats will pull out slowly, giving Iraqis time to fill in the gaps and hopefully fill in the gaps with folks who don't want to destroy the US.

[Lochloosa]

7. Time for me to collect some 4 year old bets.

I hate being right.

[ShortnFiery]

13. Bizarro General Officer and Politician SPEAK!

"Predictions of civil war coming true"

TRANSLATION

"Where are those f**king choppers to extract our American G.I. butts to the nearest Airport?"

Bastards insult our intelligence.

Civil War is ONGOING in Iraq-Nam. :grr:

[wellst0nev0ter]

15. Waiting for Saigon68 to post the embassy airlift. . .(n/t)

[Disturbed]

29. The division of Iraq into three countires.

Which population gets the oil?

[wellst0nev0ter]

30. I Wonder If Peter Galbraith Explains That In His New Book?

[IndianaGreen]

31. saigon68 is not here, but I will post the link to the photo on his behalf

Thirty Years at 300 Millimeters

By HUBERT VAN ES
New York Times April 29, 2005

HONG KONG--Thirty years ago I was fortunate enough to take a photograph that has become perhaps the most recognizable image of the fall of Saigon - you know it, the one that is always described as showing an American helicopter evacuating people from the roof of the United States Embassy. Well, like so many things about the Vietnam War, it's not exactly what it seems. In fact, the photo is not of the embassy at all; the helicopter was actually on the roof of an apartment building in downtown Saigon where senior Central Intelligence Agency employees were housed.

It was Tuesday, April 29, 1975. Rumors about the final evacuation of Saigon had been rife for weeks, with thousands of people - American civilians, Vietnamese citizens and third-country nationals - being loaded on transport planes at Tan Son Nhut air base, to be flown to United States bases on Guam, Okinawa and elsewhere. Everybody knew that the city was surrounded by the North Vietnamese, and that it was only a matter of time before they would take it. Around 11 a.m. the call came from Brian Ellis, the bureau chief of CBS News, who was in charge of coordinating the evacuation of the foreign press corps. It was on!


The assembly point was on Gia Long Street, opposite the Grall Hospital, where buses would pick up those wanting to leave. The evacuation was supposed to have been announced by a "secret" code on Armed Forces Radio: the comment that "the temperature is 105 degrees and rising," followed by eight bars of "White Christmas." Don't even ask what idiot dreamed this up. There were no secrets in Saigon in those days, and every Vietnamese and his dog knew the code. In the end, I think, they scrapped the idea. I certainly have no recollection of hearing it.

http://www.mishalov.com/Vietnam_finalescape.html