Landis tests positive (second test), may lose title

[flvegan]

PARIS (AP) -- Floyd Landis was fired by his team and the Tour de France no longer considered him its champion after his second doping sample tested positive Saturday for higher-than-allowed levels of testosterone.

The second or "B" sample, "confirmed the result of an adverse analytical finding" in the "A" sample, the International Cycling Union said.

The Swiss-based team Phonak immediately severed ties with Landis and the UCI said it would ask USA Cycling to open disciplinary proceedings against him.

"Landis will be dismissed without notice for violating the teams internal Code of Ethics," Phonak said in a statement. "Landis will continue to have legal options to contest the findings. However, this will be his personal affair, and the Phonak team will no longer be involved in that."

More at link:
http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/C/CYC_LANDIS_DOPING?SITE=FLPET&SECTION=HOME

[kurth]

1. The Tour de France is history

Not many people will pay attention to it anymore...

[Theodolite]

16. It will be better

I think it will be much more interesting and entertaining when non-americans are winning it.

[MrCoffee]

26. Landis' ride on Stage 17 was inspriational

regardless of what flag you fly.

[brentspeak]

33. Aren't you on the wrong website?

This website is for people who love America.

[Blue_Tires]

66. agreed--i'm running out of sports to watch!

i haven't watched the olympics since '92, there was a lot of shoddy officiating in this year's world cup, i can hardly watch baseball while wondering who is or isn't clean, and don't get me started on college football!:argh: :scared: :nuke: :thumbsdown:

[MGKrebs]

2. Congratulations to Pereiro then.

He'll be the winner now.

[Burma Jones]

3. But, But, But, he was raised by Good Christian Folk

It just can't be true.......

[chill_wind]

65. Stereotype much?

He's a Mennonite, and as far as I can gather, a Pacifist. That's no guarantee, I realize, that he would not cheat in a brutally competitive sport, like anyone else. But I like the guy, and I especially like what he said to the world about Bush. Unlike a lot of other war-mongering Bush loving folks and celebrities who pass under that label. I hope he is vindicated. I really do.

[Burma Jones]

71. I hope he's vindicated too

My comment was more directed at those that actually would believe that......

[chill_wind]

72. My apologies. nt

[Burma Jones]

77. Accepted......n/t

[Coyote_Bandit]

4. Ahhhh, booo hoo

I do not feel the least bit sorry for those that have to face the consequences because they chose to cheat or cut corners or take advantage of others. He did it to win. And that means he values winning more than his sport or the nature of competition itself. Some things are simply more impotant than winning. It is time we as a society recognized that.

[liberalpress]

5. Anybody but but me think..

..that his sampkes were tampered with by the French because they can't win their own event becaise they RIDE BIKES LIKE LITTLE GIRLS!?!?!?!?!

[Benhurst]

7. Probably not; but don't let that bother you.

:spank: I asume you are jesting. ;)

[Flagg]

8. It's hard to compete with americans when you're not doped like a mule

[Show_Me _The_Truth]

59. Let's not forget

All the riders that were DQ'ed prior to the race even starting.

ALLOT of Europeans in that group.

[femmedem]

9. Your comment is unworthy of your user name.

Seeing as its both sexist and defaming of a group of people based on their national identity.

Surely there's a better way to voice your suspicions that the test was tampered with?

[liberalpress]

76. Your comment tells me..

you have absolutely no sense of humor, which is demeaning to the human race and only helps to reinforce the "Democratic Party" stereotype, as presented by talk radio everyday.

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[slackmaster]

19. I find it hard to believe he would have chosen testosterone as a cheat

In that situation. It really makes no sense from a biomedical POV.

[Oak2004]

78. Absolutely! I'm surprised no one is pointing this out in the media

As an ex- cyclist (and more recent powerlifter) I have a pretty good idea what athletes use to cheat. And for a cyclist who expects to compete in the mountains, it isn't anything anabolic. Test puts on bulk, and bulk, even muscle bulk, is the enemy of a climber. Yes-- believe it or not -- road cyclists sometimes try to lose muscle mass.

A GC candidate or climber would look to stimulants, painkillers, blood doping, epo, and assorted related designer substances. A sprint specialist I'd believe would test positive for anabolic steriods. But I just can't believe a GC rider or climber would ever intentionally touch the stuff.

I'm seriously wondering if some disgruntled French rider or fan, unhappy about a possible American victory, slipped him a detectable AAS. And I'm neither a conspiracy buff not any special fan of the guy.

[oostevo]

42. No, you're not the only one

Assuming your tone was sarcastic.

I am really rather suspicious of this particular lab. They've had ethics issues in the past that are unbelievable. And the French sportsworld has been truly pissed at the Americans for the past 8 years or so ...

And I honestly can't believe that Floyd would choose to dope with testosterone the _night_ before his big attack. That just makes absolutely no sense. It'd be (err ... it was) incredibly easy to detect, and testosterone would have absolutely no effect the night before.

The whole thing honestly stinks.

[idgiehkt]

50. I wondered, but that's my tendency not to trust.

this SUCKSSSSS!!!

[Benhurst]

6. I hope those Frenchies aren't forgetting the most important fact.

We're Number One! The World's Only Superpower! And we are used to winning. Do you really think George Walker Bush is going to stand by and let the French give our boy's prize to some Spanish git?

I think not.

Rules are for pansies who believe in things like "verifiable elections" and "the will of the people".

This is BushAmerica. We're always right. In fact, we're far right.

[femmedem]

10. Hahaha!

That was brilliantly funny. Thanks.

[Benhurst]

13. You're welcome.

:hi:

[ShortnFiery]

68. If the French wanted to cheat LANCE Armstrong would not have

PASSED ALL HIS DRUG TESTS!

The guy popped positive TWICE for synthetic Testosterone.

He's history. Any whining just makes us appear even MORE Ugly American. :(

[Theodolite]

11. filthy doper

A two year ban is disappointing. A twenty year ban would be more appropriate. In the eyes of many this will also tarnish armstrong, guilt by association. I tend to believe the Americans have some sort of method to fool the doping tests, but this time something went wrong.

[brentspeak]

32. Are you anti-American?

[MrCoffee]

34. Why just the Americans?

What about the Swiss, or the Germans, or the French, or the Dutch, or any other country that has professional (yes, I know they have corporate sponsorship, and there is no "Team America") teams in cycling?

[Karmakaze]

12. LOL

"Landis, a 30-year-old former mountain biker, says he was tested eight other times during the three-week tour and those results came back negative."

Wow, so maybe he is innocent? Unless he took the testosterone during the race for some reason?

"The tests were conducted on urine samples drawn July 20 after Landis' Stage 17 victory during a grueling Alpine leg, when he won back nearly eight minutes against then-leader Pereiro - and went on to win the three-week race."

Umm ok so that kind of looks suspicious...

[MrCoffee]

25. It doesn't look suspicious...

It looks moronic. Testosterone does NOT help in the short-term. Why dope with a drug that's not going to do you any good?

[Orangeone]

15. Did you ever

see the bikes they rode in the early days of the Tour de France? They looked so heavy! They didn't have the special bikes and they didn't have performance enhancing drugs...

[sgxnk]

22. rubbish

try doing some historical research

long before steroids even EXISTED, performance enhancing drugs were still common

famously, a red wine/cocaine combo was used, to help stave off pain and give energy

steroids are not the beginning of the perforamcen enhancement, nor was EPO, HGH, IGF-1 or blood doping

just another step in a VERY long history

[Retrograde]

36. they also used strychnine

mixed with brandy for its stimulant effects if taken in the right dose. Of course, the side effects included things like dropping dead at the finish line. The collapse and death of cyclist Tom Simpson in the 1967 Tour de France was at least partially due to his use of amphetamines.

Back to the start of this mini-thread: one of my fantasies for what I'll do when I have more money than I know what to do with is to restage the 1936 Olympics - using the 1936 equipment to see if athletes have really improved all that much.

[sgxnk]

45. exactly.

yes, it has this 'pesky little side effect': death :)

in "mostly skill sports' like swimming, where technique is OH SO IMPORTANT, the athletes have improved a lot

there are 15 yr old girls who can outswim duke kahanamoku (gold medal male olympian) times' that won his olympic gold medal.

witness also, the incredible improvements in backstroke due to technique

in some sports, the technology has changed a lot ot improve the #'s (see: pole vaulting)

as an olympic style weightlifter myself, I can tell you the techniques and training science for the snatch and clean and jerk are VASTLY improved - the squat snatch vs. the split snatch, etc.

but man himself has not evolved at all.

nutrition, therapeutic modalities (massage, chiropractic), supplementation, drugs, etc. HAVE all improved of course

go back to 1936, get a swimmer on a modern designed diet, supplements teach him the improved stroke physics, etc. and i think you would see no difference

that i totally agree with

[Demeter]

17. Any Chance This Is Natural For Him?

Maybe some long-term, controlled and monitored testing?

[oostevo]

44. Some chance of being natural

This particular test screens for the ratio of testosterone to its isomer epitestosterone.

Floyd has a medical condition that prevents him from converting epitestosterone to testosterone efficiently (or perhaps it's the other way around - I can't remember). So in that case, this'd probably be natural for him.

However, if we're going to believe an anonymous source from the French lab with a dubious history, some amount of the testosterone was synthetic. Which would be bad.

[stray cat]

18. Testosterone requires long term use for benefits

Its insane to use it as a performance enhancer during a race because its used to build muscle over extended periods of time. Why would an experience cycler use a drug that can be detected in screens in the middle of a tour that is guaranteed not to provide much benefit? I'm still waiting to see what information comes out. The use of testosterone in this instance makes no logical sense.

[slackmaster]

20. I agree, it would have made no sense for him to take testosterone

Not to mention that it would have been dumb to do something so easily detectable.

[tammywammy]

21. That's what I tend to think too

If you're going to cheat, why would you do it with something so easily detected? Especially since Ulrich & Basso, and many others, were kicked out right before the start.

Maybe he really thought that he would get away with it. :shrug:

I find this whole episode really disappointing.

[Liberal Veteran]

27. Not entirely accurate.

While you are correct that it does promote the building of lean muscle mass, it also has the benefit of decreasing fatigue and elevating mood within hours after administration.

[MrCoffee]

28. So does caffeine

And as far as elevating mood, he was out boozing it up after he cracked on 16. There are other performance-enhancing drugs that are much more effective at short-term improvement than testosterone. If he was going to flagrantly cheat, why not use one of those?

[Liberal Veteran]

29. I cannot to speak to why.

I can only speak to the physiological effects of testosterone.

Motive, if there is one, is for someone else to reflect on. I only piped up to dispel the notion the only benefits of testosterone on performance are in the long-term.

[MrCoffee]

30. Motive is what matters here

The security of these samples is seriously questionable. So is the behavior of the lab that tested them and ran as fast as they could to leak the positive result to the press, which excoriated Landis as soon as the leak was out. Fairness went right out the window on this one.

[Liberal Veteran]

38. Motive matters to those who involved in figuring out if he cheated or not.

Again, I repeat that I only piped up because several times you have made the statement that testosterone provides no immediate short-term effects that would impact on his performance.

Even if that impact was just that it gave him a mental boost and feeling of energy (less fatigue) he wouldn't otherwise have had, it's STILL an effect.

[sendero]

62. I said the same..

... thing in another thread. There are a lot of misconceptions about these drugs, among them being that they have only physical effects.

[sgxnk]

46. yes. depends also.. mode of administration and the molecule modification

for example, cheque drops or halotestin both can improve strength and aggression markedly in a matter of minutes. they are phenomenally popular with wrestlers, powerlifters, etc. for this reason

i realize cheque drops and halotestin are not 'testosterone' per se but are AAS that are pharmaceutically related to testosterone.

methyl-testosterone, an oral test modified with a methyl group for oral bioavailability is EXTREMELY androgenic and definitely shows immediate effects, but moreso for strength/aggression sports than distance oriented sports but would probably show SOME benefit to distance athletes as well

the soviets and eastern bloc had some success with cyclodextrin complexed nasally administered testosterone formulation which increases the immediate androgenic effect giving extra aggression, a bit of extra endurance, etc. and is more active in the psychological aspect since it is absorbed through the nasal mucosa.

but generally speaking, it is correct that test (and to a lesser extent many test analogues) are not the drug of choice for immediate effect in a cycling comp

[ShortnFiery]

69. The tests were fair, and NO it doesn't take long time use of

Testosterone to increase ENDURANCE.

:wtf: Over! :shrug:

[MrCoffee]

23. Even WADA Officials Think There's Something Strange Afoot...

http://sports.espn.go.com/oly/cycling/news/story?id=2532029

The whole thing makes no sense.

[tammywammy]

24. Thanks for the link!

This whole story is very strange indeed.

If he did do it on purpose strip him. But it just doesn't make sense, why would he use testosterone.

[brentspeak]

31. Why was the 'B' testing done at the same lab that did the 'A' testing?

Shouldn't an independent lab do the 'B' testing?

[MrCoffee]

35. Here's your tinfoil hat!

Join us at the table!!!

[Flagg]

37. At any rate, the second test was supervised by Floyd’s lawyers

as well as other labs from other countries (at least a Swiss one that I know of)

[brentspeak]

39. I doubt that Floyd's lawyer knows a heck of a lot about

analytical biochemistry. The prudent thing to do would be to use a 3rd party lab.

[MrCoffee]

40. I'd imagine Floyd's lawyer knows quite a bit about analytical biochemistry

There are lawyers who specialize in this kind of thing, and the best ones have medical backgrounds.

[Kagemusha]

41. FYI, I've heard speculation Landis didn't suddenly dope; rather,

he suddenly screwed up his masking routine to hide regular doping. In other words, he got sloppy when he was either upset after his disaster or euphoric after his big win and didn't do something he should have to conceal this.

[Theodolite]

47. Sounds right

Something got screwed up in his routine to mask the doping signature. Probably the same routine that Lance had used successfully for his wins.

[Kagemusha]

48. I'm not gonna argue. Unless we can believe doping gives no advantage

it's hard to understand how Lance could consistently dominate doped athletes...

[idgiehkt]

51. wow

that's an interesting point, lol.

[MrCoffee]

53. Saint Lance was accused in much the same way

L'Equipe accused him again right before this year's Tour started.

[Kagemusha]

56. Doesn't mean they're clean either. I'm an equal opportunity skeptic.

Those who wish to deflect from themselves are often louder than the genuinely righteous, but like I said, who the hell knows. This is the cutting edge of biochemistry, and I'm lagging behind it.

[MrCoffee]

57. I'm no biochemist either

but when I smell something this fishy, I look for water nearby.

[flvegan]

58. That's my guess, to be honest.

The ratio was well in line, and therefore the "cheating" hidden until that test and that one portion of the race. That is IF the test is truly a positive and there isn't something sketchy going on behind the scenes.

[IndianaGreen]

43. The evidence is overwhelming--Oscar Pereiro won the Tour de France

The only question is whether Landis knowingly cheated.

Phonak is correct in firing him, and the Tour of France title should go to Pereiro!


Pereiro finished 57 seconds
behind Landis

I am the Tour champion - Pereiro

Spaniard Oscar Pereiro declared himself the true Tour de France champion after confirmation of a positive dope test for yellow jersey winner Floyd Landis.

The International Cycling Union (UCI) is set to strip Landis of the title.

Pereiro, who finished second, 57 seconds adrift, said the fact that he now stands to win the race by default would not diminish his own achievement.

"Right now I feel like the winner of the Tour de France," Pereiro said. "It's a victory for the whole team."

http://news.bbc.co.uk/sport1/hi/other_sports/cycling/5249116.stm

[Kagemusha]

49. I would like to think Pereiro's clean too but

maybe he just didn't screw up his masking routine. I don't know, I'll never know.

[IndianaGreen]

52. American cheats, so now we must smear the Spaniard?

Typical American ethnocentrism!

[tammywammy]

54. How about most, if not all, cyclists cheat

Which would explain the mass amount of riders recently implicated in the huge Spanish doping investigation. And the fact that quite a few riders were kicked out of the Tour just days before it started.

While I assume that Pereiro's clean, there's always the chance that he just wasn't caught, like other riders this year. There's really no telling with any of the riders who's doping and who's not. :shrug:

[Kagemusha]

55. Right. Nothing against Spaniards.

Equal opportunity skepticism about a sport that wants everyone to think it's clean when the evidence points so dramatically to the contrary.

[IndianaGreen]

60. You must be talking about Major League Baseball

A "sport that wants everyone to think it's clean when the evidence points so dramatically to the contrary."

Pereiro is clean.

Golden religious American boy is dirty!

[MrCoffee]

61. That's the dumbest thing i've read today

"Golden religious American boy is dirty!" you should be ashamed of yourself.

[stop the bleeding]

67. IG, I wouldn't be so sure if any professional cyclist is clean

period, end of story.

I have read almost every comment on this thread, some of them disturbing, some misguided, and some funny, but most people fail to realize that doping is rampant here in the states at the PRO, I, II levels. So there is no reason to believe it is any less overseas, after all the european, spanish, Ausies, etc. cyclists ride at a higher level.

[IndianaGreen]

74. Then it is a crying shame that the sport has been so tainted

I am more of a baseball fanatic, and I still think that Roger Maris won the homerun record fair and square, while Mark McGuire cheated.

[chill_wind]

63. We'll find out in 4-6 months. The appeal process will take that long.

If he's vindicated, don't expect the same amount of MS media vociferousness about the outcome.

Judging by them and many of the sentiments right here, he's already been tried, convicted. He is as good as destroyed.

http://www.floydlandis.com/blog/2006/08/05/176/#more-176

[Kagemusha]

64. If the science is airtight, he is as good as convicted.

That's the problem. He's gotta prove some pretty grandiose conspiracy material such as wholesale faking of scientific results to have any shot. Short of that, it's airtight.

It's not a "he might be vindicated in 6 months" thing. It's, if he's innocent, it must mean almost the entire world is guilty instead.

[chill_wind]

70. Key words- "If the science is airtight".

He's gotta prove some pretty grandiose conspiracy material such as wholesale faking of scientific results to have any shot. Short of that, it's airtight.

The integrity of a lab that would eagerly break the protocols by anonymously leaking out results in advance of the rules is as much in question in my mind as any question about his win. If they are willing to politicize and manipulate public opinion that quickly and in that manner, what else might they be willing to manipulate?



I'd agree with large excerpts of this opinion letter at cyclingnews:

The b sample should be tested by an independent lab. Is the same lab doing the b-sample test? They have a vested interest in it being the same result.

In any case, it's always the rider that looses no matter if it is tainted, procedural error or testing mistake. No one else is held accountable. Unethical, inconsistent procedure is not legally accountable. Chain of custody of blood samples is not legally accountable. It is a closed system where a mistake can be covered up, and is even advantageous and easy for the testing lab to do. In fact, it is easy for the testing lab to manipulate results to their will.

The only thing held accountable is the rider. It's a bullcrap system based on the assumption the testing lab is perfect and chain of custody is beyond reproach.

Guess what, the direct leaks of information to the press proves the laboratories are not perfect or beyond reproach. Everyone has a political, sporting or financial agenda and the only one liable for punishment is the rider.

Testing is good but with careers and the future of this sport on the line, the laboratories have to be held to a legally-binding standard. Would they act the same way if their laboratory was under the yoke of a 1 year ban of their accreditation for every error in testing or protocol?

WADA, the UCI and the Pro Racers need to make serious changes to this system. Right now, it looks like a circus. The sport looks like a joke, the UCI & WADA hold water like an enlarged prostate, the testing labs look like Enron playing w/ pro riders' pensions.


(more)

http://www.cyclingnews.com/letters.php?id=letters/2006/08-04letters3#67

And this is an interesting question posed by a French reader at that same link:

"A.J. Baxter wrote, "How do all the other tests he took come back normal except the incredible Stage 17?"

Another Q to pose: How is it that of ALL the tests of ALL the riders, only one test result came up positive? I have no idea, myself."

The lab's conduct may not be the ultimate defense. Other explanations and research may yet be pursued, but even if he loses the longer battle, I hope the lab loses their accredition and no doubt own lucrative contracts, as well, for their ethics breaches. They stink.

"it must mean almost the entire world is guilty instead."

We have the athlete. We have the lab. The entire world is not a legal or necessarily well-informed party in this. Just a pack of media-informed judgemental spectators. Nothing new there.

[ellie]

73. Shameful