Lebanese: IDF tried to kidnap senior Hizbullah member

[Scurrilous]

Lebanese army officials say special IDF forces fail in attempt to kidnap senior Hizbullah member from hospital near Baalbek; Lebanese media say mark may have been Hizbullah High Council member Sheikh Muhammad Yazbek; eyewitnesses report gun battles, casualties at scene

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3284959,00.html

<snip>

"Lebanese army and security officials said early Wednesday that special IDF forces attempted to kidnap a senior Hizbullah member from a hospital near Baalbek in the west Lebanon Valley.

Lebanese media say the mark may have been Sheikh Muhammad Yazbek, a member of Hizbullah’s High Council and one of 12 senior organization members."

<snip>

"A Hizbullah spokesman said gunmen belonging to the organization have besieged an IDF unit that was transported by air to the area. According to reports, the Israeli forces have entrenched themselves inside the hospital and are engaging in face-to-face combat with local gunmen.

Eyewitnesses inside the hospital told Al-Arabiya that exchanges of fire are taking place inside the hospital and that there are numerous casualties at the scene."

[High Plains]

1. This could be either a major coup for Israel or a major fiasco.

Fighting rages in the hospital, reports the Israelis are trapped there...who knows?

By the way, I posted the same story about 30 seconds after you, had to dupe/delete it.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

3. Odds are in favor of a major fiasco.

I doubt how Israel could pull off a major coup.

[Kagemusha]

2. In the Ha'aretz comments one guy thinks that this is "Entebbe II"

and that since evil Hezbollah must be hiding the captured IDF soldiers in a hospital (where else?) that this must be a rescue operation.

Um well, who knows. I sure don't. Just mentioning that theory because right now theory's everything anyone has. The other poster in reply to that thread was wondering like um, attacking a hospital now?... a hospital?

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. More like "Rescue of the Iranian Hostages II"

:rofl:

[uppityperson]

4. oops. thought it would be a quick snatch and run?

damn damn damn all this.

[Kagemusha]

5. They all think it'll be a quick snatch and run.

That's always how it's planned.

[uppityperson]

6. dang reality for getting in the way of plans.

Those best laid plans...

[bvar22]

7. Attempted kidnapping in Central Lebanon results in...

...destruction of Lebanese Hospital...
More Israeli self-defense, of course.

[me b zola]

8. Nothing is sacred...

From the GD thread on the same subject, posted by countryjake:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=364x1793066

Fierce fighting as IDF commandos launch raid deep in Lebanon

~snip~

Witnesses in Baalbek said they saw dozens of IAF helicopters hovering over the city. They said the private hospital in Baalbek, filled with patients and wounded people, was bombed by IAF helicopters late Tuesday. Plumes of burning smoke billowed from the hospital after it was directly hit, they said.

~more @ link

http://www.haaretz.com/hasen/spages/745276.html

[High Plains]

9. Just checked the wires. Essentially no new info...

...except a reference to four hours of fighting, which doesn't look good for the Israelis. If this was a snatch and run operation, it looks like it fucked up big time, but we'll have to wait and see.

[PCIntern]

10. the way I see it, this thread's at a crossroad

at this time.

On the one hand, if it's a rescue, it's so romantic in the Entebbe/James Bond fashion that even hardline DUers who are, well shall we say, less than thrilled about Israel's involvement are waiting to see if it works. If it does, they'll be complaining that the Hollywood-esque nature of it will mitigate against the Lebanese cause which is unfair. If it doesn't work out, then they'll say that the Israelis once again have invaded the space of the Lebanese, which is unfair.

On the other hand, if it's a kidnap of a Hezbollah hotshot, well, that's just not playing according to Hoyle, especially if the guy's in the hospital, so that's unfair. If it works, then that's a war crime and is unfair, if it doesn't then they were out of their league, and it was an operation which was unfairly planned and it's really bad.

In all four cases, it's off to The Hague.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. "Unfair" would be the last thing that comes to MY mind

:rofl:

[Laotra]

13. My take

Kidnap/assassination attempt seems more plausible than rescue, but the whole hospital thing might also be just wild speculation, part of larger operation, with group of IDF commandos seeking shelter in the hospital. Dunno.

Bombing a hospital is of course a war crime, no matter what.

Any case, seems like a overconfident show of operation, going for Entebbe II, militarily pure idiotism, career ending kind of idiotism. Can very likely end up a Carter moment for Peretz, if the defence minister okeyed this operation, that now seems to be leading many more IDF POWS and bodies for the Lebanese resistance.

[PCIntern]

15. Pardon me...

Lebanese Resistance?

who are they...I looked that up in my funk and Wagnall's and I can't find it.

Please advise...

Also on edit...is there anything which Israel does that is NOT a war crime? I understand that they dropped popsicle sticks on the ground in some of the skirmishes. Does that qualify?

Also, is there anything Hezbollah has done which qualifies them for THe Hague? I understand that they were sending rockets into Israeli towns and settlements. Do they get Medals of Freedom or the Brass Figligee with Bronze Oak-Leaf Palmfor that?

what happened after Pearl Harbor...did we get sent to the Hague for Hiroshima? Or Dresden? Was there even a World Court at that time...oh yes, in Nuremberg, convened in large part for extermination of Twelve million minorities including six million Jews. Wow, this is not a very nice world at all.

[Laotra]

16. Resistance

is what Lebanese people now call their national resistance against Israel aggression.

[PCIntern]

20. ...I presume you mean the joining of

the most-effective Lebanese Armed forces iwth the Terrorist Hezbollah who killed, among others, 241 US Marines in Lebanon.

I'm sorry, was that a War Crime? I lose track...

[Name removed]

23. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[PCIntern]

26. So you think that that was OK...?

That the peacekeeping force which was deployed in 1983 deserved to have that happen to it? I don't get it...maybe I'm mistaken...please correct me if I'm wrong. after all, it's the Blessed UN which wants a peacekeeping force again.

I don't know the language...please translate.

TIA.

[KAZ]

31. I asked the same question.

So I consulted the Google-God: "hey, Nasrallah, hey, beloved, strike, strike Tel Aviv".

[KAZ]

28. Yes, there appears to be several of "those guys" here.

Not sure what they think they're accomplishing. A DU split maybe? Rank amateur arguments, in my book. One can do so much more by creatively suggesting your talking points, while appearing to agree with your opposition. Maybe it's a culture thing?

Could you translate your last sentence? I'm at a loss.

[alcibiades_mystery]

29. So you would have been against the Nuremburg Trials?

:shrug:

[countryjake]

24. Not like they haven't done such things before...

Israel Launches Attack Deep in Lebanon; Hezbollah Says It's Fighting Trapped Commandos
http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2262787

~snip~

The last time Israel forces were known to have gone that far on the ground into Lebanon was in 1994, when they abducted Lebanese guerrilla leader Mustafa Dirani, hoping to use him to get information about missing Israeli airman Ron Arad. Dirani was released in a prisoner exchange 10 years later.

[Laotra]

11. Haaretz ticker latest:

03:38 Lebanese sources: Another IDF unit dropped in outskirts of Baalbek (Reuters)

[High Plains]

25. Uh-oh, are they going in to rescue the rescuers?

[hack89]

14. One reason to do this would be ...

to deepen the battle field so Hezbollah can't rush reinforcements to the border. IRC, they only have about 2000 well trained fighters - perhaps one Israeli goal is to make them cover more ground than they wish.

[Laotra]

22. No

There are plenty of idiots, but no military commander is that idiotic. Very remote and extremely idiotic possibility is redux of Market Garden, mechanized forces running to Baalbek where advance airborne troops are trying to establishe a base, but I doubt that very much (many bridges too far). A foolhardy show of operation (gone bad) is my best guess.

[hack89]

33. That assumes that Hezbollah has tactical mobility

The Israelis will saturate the area with C4I assets and blast any thing on the road that moves. I think Hezbollah will have a hard time reinforcing or resupplying.

[seafan]

17. Israel Launches Attack Deep in Lebanon

Israel Launches Attack Deep in Lebanon

By HAMZA HENDAWI , 08.01.2006, 07:06 PM

Israel launched a major attack deep into Lebanon, and Hezbollah said its guerrillas were fighting Israeli commandos trapped inside a hospital in the eastern city of Baalbek early Wednesday.

The Israeli army would not comment on the operation in the ancient city, which was once a Syrian army headquarters some 80 miles north of Israel. The Web site of the Israeli daily Haaretz reported that "helicopters put down IDF (military) commandos near Baalbek," without adding details.

Hezbollah's chief spokesman, Hussein Rahal, told The Associated Press that Israeli troops landed near Dar al-Hikma Hospital and that fierce fighting continued to rage for more than one hour.

"A group of Israeli commandos was brought to the hospital by a helicopter. They entered the hospital and are trapped inside as our fighters opened fire on them and fierce fighting is still raging," Rahal said.

Rahal said Hezbollah guerrillas were using automatic rifles and rocket-propelled grenades. He dismissed as "untrue" reports that the Israeli commandos managed to snatch some patients from the hospital and spirit them away in helicopters. He said Israel jets were attacking the surrounding guerrilla force with rockets.

Witnesses said the hospital was hit in an Israeli airstrike and was burning. Repeated telephone calls to the hospital went unanswered.

snip

[uppityperson]

18. I think this is a dupe

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2429246
same incident with a bit different reporting.

[mom cat]

19. Now Israel is firing on the hospital that they invaded.

[PCIntern]

21. ...oooh, can you see this,

please give a report,...sort of like how Reagan did do baseball games.

[High Plains]

27. It's in several news reports. Google is your friend.

Rather than spout shit, try to verify or disprove.

Accounts are varied. Some said Israeli jets bombed the hospital, some say there is fighting in the hospital. Reuters is now reporting a second IDF detachment landing nearby--to rescue the rescuers?. See upthread.

[PCIntern]

30. Spout Shit?

I think not...there's been enough of that all around.

Until we know what's going on, probably after the fact, blow-by-blow descriptions of Israel shooting at the hospital are specious. We don't even know why they're there, except that hezbollah is in trouble having to fight on broad fronts - they're not dug in up there like they are in the south.

[alcibiades_mystery]

34. You're an expert on Hezbollah's fortification system in the Bekaa Valley?

:rofl:

Because a pack of Arabs would never guess that Israel could helicopter people into that region?

Listen, I really like the first part of your post, the part where you tell the other poster to chill because we have insufficient information. I only wish you would take to heart your own advice for everything after "why they're there..."

[KAZ]

38. Shift is over. Top of the hour, don't ya know.

I would say that the next shift is now punching in, but I detect a certain level of disparity setting in. Maybe on to greener pastures.

[PCIntern]

42. I didn't speculate as to the exact 'fortifications'

but anyone knows that it's very hard for a force of 2000 hardened fighters to defend a wide front. The facts seem to indicate that hospital was converted into a stronghold/headquarters and something/someone of interest was removed from that hospital. I know that it's hard to believe that Hezbollah would utilize civilian structures for infrastructure...but we'll have to see how it plays out.
Looks like they got back to Israel reasonably safely, at least that's what the initial reports show. Wonder who they 'invited' back with them. Could be interesting.

So my question is, if the hospital was converted into an opposition HQ, is shooting at it still a war crime? It was early in the evening here...things seem to be a bit fluid here, as they say. So back to my original thesis, we'll have to wait and see. This is much more interesting than the obvious.

But it did occur to me that Israel wouldn't just go an shoot up a hospital after all that unless there were a reason...hell, even Hezbollah probably wouldn't do that. There would have to be a military gain. I would think, but then again I'm no expert.

[Reckon]

32. Will this be a reason for Israel to move ground forces deep into Leb?

It could be!

[Vidar]

35. Too bad about all the civilians they had to bommb first.

[Marie26]

36. Israel is looking more & more desperate. nt

[riverwalker]

37. Remember the botched up kidnap in the 90's?

The Israelis snuck into Jordan and attempted to kidnap some guy in front of a hotel. They injected his neck with Versed, he collapsed, but the Israelis didn't count on him having bodyguards. The guards saw them, chased 'em down and nabbed the Israelis who were then arrested by Jordan. Anyway, the guy is dying, the King of Jordan is REALLY pissed, he calls Clinton, who then called Israel and demanded to know what drug it was so they could give the antidote (Narcan.) It was a diplomatic keystone cops. Jordan demanded that in return for the fiasco and the Israelis, they release that Hamas guy in the wheelchair who was in prison for years. They did, and all was smoothed over.

[Scurrilous]

39. Israel later assassinated ...

...the Hamas guy in the wheelchair.

Israel assassinates Hamas leader (March 22, 2004)

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1175088,00.html

[Zynx]

44. The fact that he was crippled made him no less evil.

His terrorist campaigns against Israel were aimed at creating terror among the civilian population.

Assassination implies a legitimate political figure in the modern vernacular, but I would prefer to call that bastard a military objective. He deserved what he got.

[Scurrilous]

41. Baalbek operation completed successfully

IDF commando units return safely to Israel after nightly raid in Lebanese territory. Several Hizbullah gunmen, killed, at least three terrorists captured in operation. Lebanese officials say seven civilians killed in IDF air strike

http://www.ynetnews.com/articles/0,7340,L-3285005,00.html

<snip>

"Israeli commando units returned safely to Israel Wednesday morning, after a nightly raid on a Hizbullah stronghold in the town of Baalbek, located close to the Syrian border, and exchanges of fire with terrorists.

Lebanese officials reported that seven civilians were killed during the action.

"The combatants hurt several terrorists and captured others," the IDF Spokesperson Unit said in a statement. Security officials in Lebanon said that at least three Hizbullah gunmen were apprehended in the operation: Hussein Nasrallah, Hussein al-Bourji, and Ahmed al-Gutah. According to the sources, none of the three is a senior organization member.

The operation, which was launched after midnight, was aimed – according to foreign sources – at kidnapping Sheikh Muhammad Yazbek, a member of Hizbullah's High Council and one of the group's top 12 senior members."

[alcibiades_mystery]

43. Fill out the IDF After Action Report