News Agencies Stand by Lebanon Photos

[Judi Lynn]

News Agencies Stand by Lebanon Photos

By THE ASSOCIATED PRESS
Published: August 1, 2006
Filed at 5:17 p.m. ET

NEW YORK (AP) -- Three news agencies on Tuesday rejected challenges to the veracity of photographs of bodies taken in the aftermath of an Israeli airstrike in Lebanon, strongly denying that the images were staged.

Photographers from The Associated Press, Reuters and Agence France-Presse all covered rescue operations Sunday in Qana, where 56 Lebanese were killed. Many of their photos depicted rescue workers carrying dead children.

A British Web site, the EU Referendum blog, built an argument that chicanery may have been involved by citing time stamps that went with captions of the photographs.
(snip)

''These photographers are obviously willing to participate in propaganda,'' Limbaugh said. ''They know exactly what's being done, all these photos, bringing the bodies out of the rubble, posing them for the cameras, it's all staged. Every bit of it is staged and the still photographers know it.''

The AP said information from its photo editors showed the events were not staged, and that the time stamps could be misleading for several reasons, including that web sites can use such stamps to show when pictures are posted, not taken. An AFP executive said he was stunned to be questioned about it. Reuters, in a statement, said it categorically rejects any such suggestion.
(snip/...)

http://www.nytimes.com/aponline/us/AP-Mideast-Photos.html?_r=1&oref=slogin

[katinmn]

1. I hope people are doing some digging into the British blog

Sounds like a nasty group that may not be helping their "cause."

[ThomCat]

3. If this is manufactured outrage

and the pictures are exactly what they are represented to be (as seems likely) then how are they a nasty group? And how are they hurting any cause?

Did Kerry hurt our cause because the swiftboaters smeared him? A smear is just that, a smear.

[katinmn]

5. What is the group's goal? By challenging the honesty of the photos,

are they trying to minimize the carnage?

They are claiming that photographers participated in propaganda-like photo ops. I believe one agency might do that but not all the top news sources in the world.

I think it is disgusting to try to minimize the horror of children being killed while sleeping in the basement of a safe house.

These children were not running for office like Kerry was. And they are dead.

[ThomCat]

6. I think you and I are agreeing.

The pictures are accurate. The people challenging the pictures have an agenda and are doing the smearing.

I thought you were attacking the photographers and the organizations who published them.

[katinmn]

9. Why, yes we are in agreement. :-)

It happens sometimes on DU. :)

[Robb]

13. Locking

Agreement is not permitted on DU. ;)

[Dan P]

43. I don't think its a smearing

I think there are reporters and photographers genuinely witnessing atrocities, but I'm not convinced that the images that are being uploaded to the MSM accurately reflect what is really happening.

[Ms. Clio]

50. right, three news agencies conspired to put out fake photos

Decisively debunked by a real professional photographer here: http://www.deadparrots.net/archives/photography/0608blame_the_media_part_next.html

[Dan P]

57. way to argue like a republican

set up that straw man, and BAM knock him down.

I don't think any one here has questioned the authenticity of photos, but the timing of photos is certainly questionable.

Oh, and please, I beg of you: explain why the same fucking "rescue worker" is holding the same dead kid in at least a half dozen poses over a time frame of several hours. Try, I know it might be hard, but try goddamnit, to explain how or why the same dead body needs to be moved in and out of rubble, taken in and out of ambulances, etc. during a time that was unquestionably horrifying for so many citizens of Qana.

[Ms. Clio]

58. way to ignore the link provided that clears up the ridiculous "mystery"

about the timing of the photos, and all the rest of the asinine talking points you are parroting.

[Dan P]

61. oh, so I see

regardless of the times that various photos were taken, it's certainly best to always hold a corpse far up over your head and turn as needed for various reporters to get a good view and to walk around a war zone like you're the pied fucking piper of some anti-semtitc bullshit pr stunt?

I'm not questioning the veracity of the attacks and I'm not saying Israel was justified.

Try to move beyond your emotion ... reason is the means by which we negotiate solutions.

[Ms. Clio]

62. try spending an hour or so at You Tube

search "Qana," look at all the photos and videos, and post the ones you think are "held up to let the reporters get a good view."

You keep talking about reason, but I'm the one providing links. And not to rightwingnuts.

[Dan P]

63. yup

it must be assine rightwing talking points. Otherwise, I might have to think for myself and come up with a response.

oh, I got it: I call 'em rightwing nutjobs, or the like, that way I don't have to address the substance.



sheesh. I used think that du koolaid drinkers were, at least, less dangerous; but I'm not so sure anymore.

[Ms. Clio]

64. done for now

I'll be waiting for your own links to credible sources that prove that three news agencies conspired to take fake photos.

[Dan P]

66. ok, I'll be waiting for you to produce evidence

of when I ever said photos were faked.

that is not the point of anything that I've posted. I have never questioned the veracity of any picture. My complaint is, and always has been at the convenience with which the victims keep showing up right around the same time as photographers. If you don't find it a bit odd that the same two corpses of children happened to be in the hands of the same rescue worker throughout several poses over what was clearly several hours, then sure, go ahead, put your head back down, the sand sort of feels nice around the ears, doesn't it?

[Judi Lynn]

72. Did you read this information in the original post?

The AP said information from its photo editors showed the events were not staged, and that the time stamps could be misleading for several reasons, including that web sites can use such stamps to show when pictures are posted, not taken.

[Dan P]

74. did you look at the photos?

[Ms. Clio]

84. I knew this silly little troll would be gone by the time I got back

[wabeewoman]

88. Sorry to jump in here

but are you saying you believe the rescue worker stood around for several hours holding the same dead child?? What exactly are you trying to say?? Come on, spit it out. You don't think its likely the photographers got there when the children were pulled from the rubble? You think its propaganda to try to make Israel look worse? Or you are trying to minimize the children's death by saying a rescue worker posed with a dead child? I'm really trying to understand your point.

[Ms. Clio]

90. sorry, dead men tell no more fairy tales

This pathetic asshole has been tombstoned.

[ConcernedCanuk]

93. Gee - this is no surprise !

.
.
.



Mods are doing their job!

[w4rma]

15. By challenging the photos they are trying to maximize the carnage. (nt)

[Dan P]

20. amen

the photos are more than questionable with respect to whether they were staged and it's not like journalists in general have laurels on which they can rest their integrity.
I don't doubt at all that Israel bombed Qana and killed innocents, but just look at the lack of concrete dust on most of the "victims". it doesn't do to equate cause A with effect B, even if it works for the cameras and the idiot MSM.

[Name removed]

23. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

32. Debunked below

HTH.

[ShortnFiery]

79. A point of clarity ...

Does continuing this argument mean that the old men, women and children in ALL these photos are NOT still DEAD? :thumbsdown:

[Bretttido]

89. That's what Dan P and Rush Limpbaugh would like you to think.

[me b zola]

2. rw shills have received their orders--Attack Journalism

Republican party, "We'll attack anything, even the facts"

[Name removed]

22. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Midlodemocrat]

4. Why does anyone give any credence to ANYTHING that

Limpballs says? He is a complete and total POS. :puke:

[Dan P]

68. that adds so much to the discussion

thank you, you're a true credit to the cause.

[Midlodemocrat]

92. Thanks for playing. We have some lovely parting gifts for you

behind the red curtain. :bounce:

[soothsayer]

7. Well, that civil war dude staged his, the iwo jima shot was staged

(or rather, redone to be shot again). Not unheard of, really.

[Ms. Clio]

36. there were three news agencies involved

do you honestly think all three conspired to "stage" photos? Why?

[Poppyseedman]

8. There are some serious questions that need to be answered here.

-How did they manage to print a huge state of the art poster of Condi Rice in literal hours before the building fell?

-Why were there children in the building before it fell after being hit several hours previously?

-Why did the roof remain intact when it hit by a missle?

-According to some websites I have looked at, there is a question on when these children died based on the lack of blood at the scene. Some are making the accusation these children were killed actually days ago to be used as propaganda tools

-This same town was the scene of a very similar event 10 years ago that brought a crease fire. Strange.

Using dead children as propaganda tools is about the lowest form of human activity I can think of. I'm not accusing any one of doing that, but there are questions that need to be answered.

This certainly would not be the first time the dead of war have been used as media props

I certainly hope that is not the case here as it is horrible enough as it stands

[spinnaker]

17. Nothing strange about it

>> -This same town was the scene of a very similar event 10 years ago that brought a crease fire. Strange.

Strange? There is nothing strange about it; if you use artillery and aerial bombing of a civilian area you get the same result time and time again! The Israelis never denied shelling Qana in 1996; they claimed it was yet another accident but eyewitnesses said their drones were active in the area.

Try reading Robert Fisk's 'Pity the Nation' ... he reported first hand several such incidents during Israels first invasion of Lebanon (he reported Qana first hand as well); including 120 civilians killed in a basement in Tyre. The type of weapon used penetrates the floors of a building and explodes when it finally hits solid ground. After what he witnessed in Tyre he never sheltered in the basements of buildings again.

[Zhade]

33. Check the poster's history...

...and tell me you're dealing with someone just "honestly questioning" these deaths.

[Ms. Clio]

40. the so-called questions aren't even coherent

and the only sites pushing this crap are rightwingnut sites.

[Zhade]

45. "the only sites pushing this crap are rightwingnut sites"

Hence my earlier post...

[Ms. Clio]

46. yes

interesting how the talking points get echoed here almost as soon as they appear at places like LGF, etc.

[anotherdrew]

86. almost like a MEGAPHONE were in effect? n/t

[Name removed]

47. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Ms. Clio]

48. Keep trying to tell us that Drugrush and Little Green Fascists are valid

sources.

I think you'll be back in your own toolbox before too long, ducky.

[Zhade]

54. If it's reported on a pro-fascist racist site like LGF, you're right.

It can't be true, because they lie constantly, and are too dumb to realize the rest of the world actually knows what's really going on.

[caduceus111]

77. Answers.

Poppyseedman wrote:

-How did they manage to print a huge state of the art poster of Condi Rice in literal hours before the building fell?

First, it's irrelevant. Second, it was posted AFTER the attack. Third, it was posted on a bridge in BEIRUT, not Qana. I think any big city has printing capabilities to make a banner.

-Why were there children in the building before it fell after being hit several hours previously?

Um, maybe because they were already dead from the impact of the missle strikes???

-Why did the roof remain intact when it hit by a missle?

Perhaps because if you want to raze a building, you don't aim for the roof, but rather the foundation.

-According to some websites I have looked at, there is a question on when these children died based on the lack of blood at the scene. Some are making the accusation these children were killed actually days ago to be used as propaganda tools

Stupid argument from those "websites". First, most people in a war don't die of exanguination, but rather from impact trauma. You can die and not bleed a drop from an impact weapon. Secondly, if you did bleed, you'd likely bleed out at the spot you died, which, presumably, would be in the basement of that building in Qana, not where they carried the bodies outside.

-This same town was the scene of a very similar event 10 years ago that brought a crease fire. Strange.

Can't say Israel are a not a consistent bunch. "Those who forget the lessons of history are doomed to repeat them." -George Santayana

Using dead children as propaganda tools is about the lowest form of human activity I can think of. I'm not accusing any one of doing that, but there are questions that need to be answered.

And much worse are the actions that directly caused those dead children. Yes, there are questions that need to be answered, like why Israel is exterminating so many innocents. Obviously there is something wrong when there are more dead civilians, women and children than combatants.

This certainly would not be the first time the dead of war have been used as media props

I think the pictures speak for themselves, and those limp bodies were freshly dead, otherwise rigor mortis makes them stiff.

I certainly hope that is not the case here as it is horrible enough as it stands

Agreed.

What a world we live in. <sigh>

[Kailassa]

78. Very nicely argued.

I hope your stay at D.U. is a long and happy one.

:toast:

[katty]

10. There is no path to peace. Peace is the path' - Mahatma Gandhi

[xxqqqzme]

11. is this story available at

any other source? - I f*cking hate registrations to read news!

[Judi Lynn]

14. You're in luck! Here's the same article from another source:

http://seattlepi.nwsource.com/national/1110AP_Mideast_Photos.html

[Ms. Clio]

19. in the future, you can also use bugmenot.com

to get around registrations.

[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[saigon68]

70. Au Revoir Enjoy your stay on this thread

[Peace Patriot]

12. I hope this wakes up some of the AP reporters. They have been

propagandists for the Bush junta and the corporate rulers and their goddamned oil war. Reuters lapses into corporate propaganda sometimes as well (but they are far more reliable than AP.) AFP is the most reliable of the three. And, yes, I think this web site needs to be investigated. Shades of Dan Rather and the Texas Nat'l Guard docs--and the "swiftboaters." It's amazing how much of our civilization the Bush Cartel is willing to sacrifice in their drive for all the money and all the power and all the oil on earth. Not even someone's war medals and military service is respected. Truth. Honesty. Good journalism. Honor. Loyalty to the law. Our best humanitarian impulses. The highest principles of the American Revolution--a limited executive, fair trials, personal security, the balance of power. Our desire to give everyone a fair chance. Our not picking on the weak. Our devotion to a fair fight, and following the rules. Our dislike of bullies. Our racial and religious tolerance--very hard won gains. Everything we hold sacred has been spat upon and insulted. We are still good people--amazingly so, given the 24/7 brainwashing. But it breaks my heart to see the model of behavior that will surely tempt some of the young: Liars and bullies win. They become president. That's how you get to be a billionaire. And the more people you kill, the more votes you get (especially if you have your buds "counting" the votes with "trade secret" code--he-he-he). And you can get to be governor and giggle over executions. So funny. Some woman pleading for her life.

I think it comes from having too much money. You think that no one can get at you; you are insulated; no one can treat you unfairly. So--especially if your upbringing is bad--you don't give a crap for the laws and socialization and personal ethics that protect everyone else, and by which our society goes along on a fairly smooth track. The Bush junta, however, seems to seethe with hatred for all that we hold valuable. I was especially struck with this during Katrina. It is MORE than obliviousness; it is a determination, perhaps even a program written up somewhere in some "Project for a New American Century" archive, to destroy the American mind and heart, to slash our self-image with knives, to utterly demoralize all who believe in good government, progress and human compassion. The Bushites seem to leap at every opportunity to stir up bigotry, and the mob psychology of scapegoating and the inquisition.

I can see this for what it is: Group psychosis, that exhibits itself in different ways, but is most obvious in Bush, who has little self-control. But what do children think? The healthier ones may develop contempt for government and for authority--which might be good--but that attitude might result in cynicism and reckless behavior (the "rebel without a cause syndrome of the '50s"). The unhealthier ones, and ones without other guidance, might despair or become callous, greedy SOBs themselves.

I don't have a lot of illusions about American journalism, before Bush or now--nor about anything else. But to be reaching for the lowest--Ann Coulter, Judith Miller, Faux News, Russ Limbaugh, Sean Hannity, Michael Reagan--is unprecedented in a society. I can't think of any society that has done this. Some have decayed and fallen. But none have TRIED TO. It's as if Bush and his creepo media lapdogs and rottweilers, and EVERYONE ELSE in BushWorld is TRYING HARD to destroy American society.

So, anyway, AP Reporters, WAKE UP! Don't take "swiftboat" slashers for granted. And don't think it's some marginal phenomenon. It might be coming right from the White House.

[w4rma]

16. The reporters aren't usually the problem. It's the editors and owners. nt

[Realityhack]

21. Often...

but it also often becomes a part of the culture and the reporters over time buy into it as their own.

[Ms. Clio]

18. Reality

it has a well-known liberal bias.

[IndianaGreen]

24. Who is behind the "EU Referendum blog"?

Is this another proxy for Israel's megaphones?

The Independent's correspondent Robert Fisk, who has more credibility than Bush, Olmert, and the entire MSM, was a witness to these atrocities. Fisk has written extensively of war crimes committed by Israel in her war on Lebanon. Fisk has lived in Beirut for years.

[TomInTib]

25. The name, alone, smacks of propaganda.

And I am with you on Fisk.

That guy has steel cojones.
Stainless Steel.

[IndianaGreen]

27. EU Referendum blog is just a discussion board, like DU

Unlike DU, which quickly confines baseless conspiracy theories to the cyber shredder, EU Referendum blog likes tin foil theories, particularly those that promote the view that there is something sinister about the European Union.

[TomInTib]

30. Thanks. nt

[Dan P]

34. Yup

if it comes from a site that might disagree with what I thunk, it must be bogus.

[Ms. Clio]

35. we don't use rightwing sources here

especially not sources endorsed by Rush Limbaugh and Little Green Fascists.

[Dan P]

37. by God, there may be uncomfortable facts from such a source

what an idiotic thing to say

[Ms. Clio]

38. no, there no "facts" of any kind from those sources

that you would say such a thing simply speaks volumes.

Don't stop. What other "facts" have you heard from Drugrush?

[Name removed]

41. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KAZ]

42. Eww, another premature exasperator...

... blew so quickly, so as to leave one feeling, uh, somewhat neglected. Had high hopes.

[saigon68]

73. Au Revoir Enjoy your stay on this thread

[Dan P]

69. yes, the whole world is a vacuum

where only facts that comport with one's point of view exists.

ah, yes, I forgot that truth for a moment.

but now I remember, some pigs are more equal.

[Dan P]

75. quick, get a du moderateror to delete anything .....

well, not so much "offensive", but perhaps just incompatilbe with how I think.

[wabeewoman]

91. Dan

You remind me of my brother. He's quite intelligent but he never, as my mother put it, had common sense. He couldn't understand the rules of logic, how to make an argument with facts and unfortunately he falls for rush and other purveyors of lies. The reason we don't believe rush and his like are because they don't use facts. They make wild arguements out of whole cloth, they repeat and promote lies and noone who understands the rules of logical thinking believes them. There have been some great links to argument fallacies on this site if you're interested. Of course, you must have an open mind...

[IndianaGreen]

39. Like Israel's megaphones from giyus.org and similar sites

We know Israel's megaphones and their talking points:

Israel is Standing Strong in Its Fight against Terrorism

Below is what's becoming our daily list of blogs discussing the current events in the war against Hezbollah.

Please read these blogs and voice your opinion. However, please take a moment to review other people's comments and avoid unnecessary repetitions. Also please make sure your comment directly relate to the blog item in question (take a look at OneGoodMove Blog where many of you posted comments yesterday - the blogger added an update referring specifically to Giyus users).

Thanks for your time and efforts - together we are making a difference and helping Israel at these difficult times.

Here they are - our daily blog pick:

The Lebanese Political Journal asks When is Israel Wrong - this is a well written post asking what Israel is trying to achieve and what will happen the day after

Kevin Sites over at Yahoo's Hotzone blog reports on the suffering of the Lebanese people - write and ask him to cover the suffering of the Israeli people as well

The TimesOnline blog covers the Qana incident and compares it to the 1996 incident - read and support Israel's right to defend itself even when Hezbolla is cruelly using civilians as human shields

Check out two posts over at Thought Mechanics blog - a guest contributing article warning Israel not to overplay its part and an analysis of the silent reaction in the arab countries to the war in Lebanon

EU Referendum tries to investigate the mystery of Qana and the "Green Helmet" man - read and discuss at the related forum

http://blog.giyus.org/

[anotherdrew]

87. right-wingers are all LIERS. no fact they bring can be trusted

if it's truely true the info will come from elsewhere

[Dan P]

52. just because the link is killed

I certainly don't appreciate that another poster has apparently taken my debate points
and used them obscenely or otherwise in contradiction to the du rules, but I am still interested
to hear your reasoning. Is a link from any site with which you philosophically disgree automatically
a site that cannot possibly contain facts? there's way too many liberals that are taking this
retarded attitude and it's not doing a damn thing to help the party. If you're going to drink the
kool-aid, just drink it for the repugs because the liberal party has no use for nonthinking morons.

[Ms. Clio]

53. look, just can the personal attacks, buddy

If you honestly believe that Rush Limbaugh, Little Green Fascists, or maybe David Duke have "valid points" to make, you just aren't going to like it here.

[Dan P]

55. oh, that's very cute

har fucking har
you seem to me to be the type of democrat that probably voted for Nader in 2000 "to make a statement".
Are you satisfied with that fucking statement you made? Yeah, the rest of us are, too.

[Ms. Clio]

56. ??????

I voted for Gore, ducky. And I was satisfied with that "fucking statement," but the Supremes, alas, were not.

[Dan P]

59. neophyte warning

Uh, I'm not familiar with the "ducky" language - could be a slur, could be a reference to the
the superduper Duck Tours that my fair city of Boston offers to its (unsuspecting) guests.

At any rate, I guess I need more data, but I do apologize for accusing you of being a Nader voter.

We're not all bad, we liberals, sometimes we just get crazy on one another.

and some of us get more crazy than others.

[Ms. Clio]

60. It's British slang, and not a slur n/t

[mogster]

81. You have met this with little fact, and front an opinion only

'We should ask ourselves questions'.

Then you promote the use of sources like Limbaugh and LGF, known to be so biased they would say anything.

Finally, you're met here with reasoned argumentation and respond by being more and more rude, and resort to personal sniping.

This clearly means a lot to you ;-)

[Name removed]

71. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Dan P]

67. definitely

the information on du is clearly truthier than info posted on other blogs that might be run by people with a different opinion.

[Kailassa]

80. I found you some little friends.

Because, just like real dogs, clockwork doggies prefer to run in packs.

[Ms. Clio]

26. EU Referendum Blog is run by members of the Bruges Group

which is "a euro-sceptic organisation connected to the (British)Conservative Party."

http://www.sourcewatch.org/index.php?title=Bruges_Group

It continues to publish and is active on the world wide web. Some of its leading lights are active in the blogosphere (e.g. Dr Helen Szamuely and Dr Richard North at the EU Referendum blog).

http://www.answers.com/topic/bruges-group


I think we can all smell the bullshit on this one now?

[IndianaGreen]

29. That explains their anti European Union slant

Yep, we can smell the bullshit!

Great post and thank you, Ms. Clio!

[Ms. Clio]

31. thanks, IG! Very interesting if you trace this through the wingnutsosphere

you end up at the most vile sites, with names like this: pigdogfucker.com/category/filthy-foreigners/eurabia/

[truthisfreedom]

28. limpballs is nothing but a propaganda machine... that's why he is obsessed

with the notion. go back to your island sex vacation, rush, and stop spewing filth. go take some viagra and pay natives to rub oil on you.

[leesa]

44. Rush Limbaugh is the defender of Israel. Pretty low.

You know you're scraping the bottom of human morality when Rush Limbaugh is your defender.

[muryan]

65. So does Bill Clinton and Jimmy Carter

not the bottom of human morality as far as im concerned.

[IndianaGreen]

85. Clinton and Carter have called for a ceasefire, while US, UK & Israel

want the killings to continue.

The Israel megaphones didn't care for Carter for he worked for a settlement in the Middle East that would have prevented the Greater Israel and the New Temple some of this ilk want. They also worked feverishly to prevent Clinton from having a peace agreement before he left office.

You bet that Israel would not be bombing Lebanon today if Clinton or Carter were in the White House.

[Straight Shooter]

51. Well, heaven knows that the right wing would NEVER stage photos.

Thus they are perfectly entitled to take the high road here and condemn any photographer for which there may be the slightest suspicion of staging a photo to engender sympathy for dead children, oh my gawd, the horror of eliciting sympathy for dead children in an attempt to stop this carnage.

:sarcasm:

FURL.

[daydreamer]

82. Remember MSM changed the story of kidnapping took place inside

Lebanon into the Israeli official line. Everybody now is Fox News for the Israeli government or else.

[katinmn]

83. Yes. AP originally reported that the kidnapping took place inside Lebanon

but soon revised the report.