Cuba’s Fidel Castro undergoes intestinal operation, government says.

[Roon]

breaking on http://www.msnbc.msn.com/

[IndianaGreen]

1. Raul Castro is temporary President of Cuba

Cuban President Fidel Castro is transferring power provisionally to brother Raul while he undergoes an operation, Cuban TV announces.

CNN banner

[ER One Seven]

199. Info on Raul

Does anyone know anything about Raul? The reason I ask is with Fidel being 80 years old, I dont see him sticking around too much longer and will likely pass off power to his brother permanently.

[ChickMagic]

234. This is all I know

he was in exile with Castro and Che Guevara. I remember when Castro
took power. People were dancing in the streets of Havana because the
imperialists were driven out (as far as I could tell as a kid).

[Judi Lynn]

246. Here are some photos of him taken during the revolution:

Raul is with Che Guevara and Fidel Castro. In the one which says "Image," with Camilo Cienfuegos, as well as the 2nd, they are up in the Sierra Maestra where they fled when the 82 of the rebels came from exile on the Granma boat from Mexico. A lot of them were shot as soon as they arrived. Che Guevara was shot in the shoulder and the neck but kept on going until they reached the mountains, and got help.

Che Guevara named a son for Camilo Cienfuegos. Here's his photo, and a photo of Camilo Cienfuegos:

[ChickMagic]

255. Wow - I hadn't seen those before

Thanks a million. I remember when Castro took power, but
I was a kid, so these photos are great.

[Akim]

297. Che Forever

If there was ever a human being who should be cloned it is Che Guevara.

Christ can never walk among us again.

Perhaps Che can.

[Yupster]

313. I just finished a book "After Fidel"

written in 2005 by Brian Litell.

He's the "Cuba expert" who's been quoted in al the UA Today stories the last week.

It was fascinating.

It tells the history of the two brothers from childhood up to a year ago and even ends with predictions.

In short, Fidel and Raul had extremely weird childhoods. Their father was rich yet uneducated. They are probably half-brothers. They have the same mother, who was not their legal mother. Their legal mother lived at home and had three (?) kids with Fidel's dad, but then separated from the dad though they were still married. A young housekeeper lived in their father's bedroom and had seven (?) more kids incleding Fidel and Raul. The housekeeper became a de-facto first lady and was an excellent organizer of the household and finances for the uneducated Angel Castro (the dad). It's thought that Raul is from an affair the housekeeper (15 when she moved in with 40 year old Angel) had with the captain of the local army garrison. In letters between them, Raul has used the term "your father" when speaking to Fidel about Angel.

Anyway, Fidel was right from the beginning a master of speaking, school, etc. Teachers who remember him call him outstanding. Raul was nothing of the sort. Average or less in every respect.

Raul was never treated well by Angel, and Fidel quickly became a father figure to him. He's been a loyal # 2 for him his whole life.

It's unknown when Fidel became a communist. Raul though represented Cuban communists in oung Communist meetings all around the world from the early 1950's. The Russians considered Raul to be their man in Fidel's movement but it may have been the opposite. Raul may have been Fidel's man in Russia.

During 1958, Raul opened a second front in the Revolution and did very well. By the end of the war, his front controlled more population and territory than Fidel's. He did a good job organizing the army and was much quicker to use the revolutionary firing squad than Fidel did.

For the last 45 years, Raul has concerned himself with building the army and has done a wonderful job of it.

Things staretd to unravel when the USSR dissolved. The army was asked to make itself "self-sufficient" which meant the men and officers were given jobs. Raul pushed for capitalist initiatives in the early 90's, especially tourist related, and he put high ranking military officers in charge of hotels, resorts etc. The author assumes this will make them extremely loyal to Raul as their huge incomes are tied to his largesse.

As the Cuban GDP contracted more than 50 % from 1989 - 1993, the army suffered and is no onger the quality force it once was.

Cuba ordered 700,000 bicycles from China to replace the cars which couldn't be kept running and over 100,000 oxen were brought in to replace the tractors which wouldn't run. The Cuban infrastructure is considered hopeless as it hasn't been maintained for 40 years.

This author predicts that Raul will do nothing as long as Fidel is alive. Even in the General Ochoa incident, Raul wouldn't stand up to Fidel, and the general was executed for "drug trafficking," which the author claims was just a completely made up charge.

The author predicts that if Raul is able to rule, he will go quite far in normalizing relations with the USA, going as far as to cooperate in sharing terror info, renouncing violence in Cuban international relations and expelling those wanted for capital offenses from Cuba.

The author said the very worst case scenario would be Raul dying before Fidel because there is no number three man, and that has been kept that way on purpose, and any time someone has developed a following, they have been eliminated.

Very interesting read. I took it with me on vacation in DisneyWorld and it turned out to be really well timed.

[Judi Lynn]

323. Here are some comments from a viewer who saw the author on C-Span

Brian Latell Demonizes Fidel on C-Span's "Book TV"

Author of "After Fidel" Spins Wild Tales about Cuba

I just watched the C-Span 2 "Book TV" with Brian Latell, author of "After
Fidel. Latell is an ex-CIA agent and professor at Georgetown University.
Well, I imagine most of you can predict the flavor of his commentary....

Progressives should write, call or e-mail C-Span to let the station know
they are aware of of Mr. Latell's manipulating the truth with the idea of
brainwashing the US public to accepting a military invasion of Cuba. The
e-mail address for "Book TV" is booktv at c-span.org.
(snip)

3. Latell tells a story of Fidel making Raul kill a Cuban in Mexico shortly
before the revolutionaries left on the Granma for Cuba. From whom did Latell
get this story? Was it from a US-supported counter-revolutionary? How does
Latell know he has all of the "facts"? Documented facts are NOT part of
Latell's account in any part of his presentations. In fact, Latell has
served as a spokesman for the Cuban American Exile Miami terrorists and
seems to take what they say as "fact."

4. Latell says at one point that these stories have never been told before.
Now, doesn't that make one wonder why? Actually, most have been told
before--by the exile terrorists. Latell goes on and on about how Fidel
committed heinous acts of violence and even states that possibly Fidel has a
"gene in him for violence."

5. Latell claims that Fidel and Raul competed with each other to see who
could perform the most executions. The first question to ask, of course, is
where did Latell get this information. This could come only from the
opposition.

6. Latell states Fidel is failing cognitively and physically and suffering
from the early stages of dementia and physical problems. This is what the
exiles have said for years, yet Fidel was quite lucid when interviewed by
Oliver Stone in "Comandante" and "Looking for Fidel." I am sure he has
slipped from his prime, but haven't we all? Could one reason for the US
media censoring Stone's "Comandante" and "Looking for Fidel" be that the US
moneyed "powers that be" do not want the US public to see and hear Fidel, to
see and hear reality?
(snip)

http://olm.blythe-systems.com/pipermail/nytr/Week-of-Mon-20051107/026393.html

[Yupster]

326. In the book, he

says a military invasion of Cuba would be a disaster for both countries. I don't think he advocates that anywhere that I remember anyway.

Of course Fidel is falling apart mentally and physically. What 80 year old isn't?

I don't remember reading anything about the brothers competing with each other for executions either. It wasn't the impression I got, but I was reading it after long days at DisneyWorld.

I have no idea how good or bad this author is, but he was certainly in an important position influencing US policy toward Cuba for many years. I certainly learned an awful lot about the Castro brothers, a lot more than I knew before.

I do want to read Georgie Anne Geyer's biography of Fidel now to get another view.

I didn't see the guy on book TV, but the viewer's comments you note above do not reflect the view of the book accurately in my opinion as someone who just read it.

Anyway, it was certainly an interesting read. I sure learned a lot.

[Vidar]

2. I wish him well.

[IndianaGreen]

3. No sane person would wish Cuba the "freedom and democracy"

that America stands for, as Iraqis can attest to.

[GuillermoX71]

9. Yeah the America so bad

that hundreds of thousands of Americans have risked their lives in rickety rafts to escape from, to the Paradise of Cuba, with its Free Health Care and Education.

I hope to make a run for it the next full moon.

[IndianaGreen]

12. If you think Cubans will let the Miami scum do to them what Iraqi exiles

did to the Iraqi people, think again!

[GuillermoX71]

16. The vast majority of Cubans

wish they could be amongst the "Miami scum" because conditions in Cuba are beyond what virtually westerner could imagine.

I have travelled to Cuba, recently.

Have you?

[Mika]

17. What utter bullcrap

I've been to Cuba many times. Cuba is by far in much better shape than some other poor nations in the Caribbean and the Latin Americas (I've been around there also).

Cubans don't have a great affection for the Miami gusanos (to put it mildly).

Even the CIA's own annual report states that the vast majority of Cubans support their system of government.

[GuillermoX71]

45. Criticism of Castro

or the Government gets one three years in jail.

Interior Ministry troops everywhere...government spies in your apartment buildings.

Very few like it.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Too many people who HAVE been there have written differently

right here at D.U., as well as other places.

That's just silly, isn't it?

[Mika]

63. Anyone who spews such nonsense either hasn't been to Cuba, or..

.. has an agenda.

[nashville_brook]

87. or they're completely anesthetized to the point that they think

if there ain't a Home Depot, a Publix and a Cold Slab Creamery on every corner then it ain't CIVILIZATION!


"who could imagine life without Hospital Corporation of America? or... Starbucks... or... a giant chevy dealership on every exit."

[deaniac21]

240. Well, you probably CAN buy a 1957 chevy in Havana if you

have the money!

[IndianaGreen]

57. Hey, you are describing Bush's Amerika

Bush even has spies among LGBTs opposed to "don't ask, don't tell."

[RagingInMiami]

261. Well that sure as hell doesn't stop them from constantly washing up on

Miami's shores. I wish I had a dollar for every Cuban I've met that had arrived in Miami in the last six months.

[Mika]

265. Washing up on Miami's shores?

I've noticed that you constantly use disinformation/incorrect stereotypes when discussing Cuba & Cubans in the US. What's up with that? Its pathetic.

The fact are:

Only a tiny percentage of Miami's Cubans get here by raft or smuggler's go-fast boats.

The VAST majority come to the US by using a LEGAL IMMIGRATION VISA.

[RagingInMiami]

269. The generalization started when you said

"Cubans don't have a great affection for the Miami gusanos (to put it mildly)."

So perhaps most Cubans who have arrived here since 2000 arrived here using a LEGAL IMMIGRATION VISA, but that still contradicts your original statement because there have been 130,000 Cubans who have emigrated to Miami during the last six years.

The article below clearly states that these recent arrivals did not come to the U.S. expecting the streets paved with gold. They know they're not going to get guaranteed healthcare. And they choose not to participate in the anti-Castro obsession and rhetoric that has possessed so many Cubans down here.

But despite the struggles of assimilating in a capitalist society, they still consider themselves better off in Miami than they were in Cuba.

http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/15010041.htm

Like so many immigrants, (Tamara) Saavedra has struggled to cope with the sense of dislocation of a new land. The problems she worries about are common: having enough money to buy medicine for her sick daughter, pleasing a husband she sees only a few minutes a day and finding ways to materialize the dreams she envisioned for herself when she left Cuba behind.

''The American dream no longer exists,'' she said, as she swept the floor of the store. ``But I'm never going back to Cuba to live, not while Fidel Castro is alive.''

For Barbarita Herrera, 39, assimilation into American life, Miami style, has been a culture shock. Even the water tastes different than the ''parasite-laden'' water she said flowed from Havana pipes. But unlike others, Herrera has a hatred of the government she left behind, a system she believes is bound to change.

''Sometimes I feel like just giving up and going back,'' she said. ``But I can't go back to that system. Castro really has to fall. You don't realize how bad things are there until you get here.''

One of the few politically charged new arrivals is Manuel Vásquez Portal, a dissident journalist who served time in a Cuban prison before he went into exile last June. He says the political apathy of newly arrived exiles is a product of their disillusionment with the Cuban system, which led them to immunize themselves from politics.

''The economic deterioration on the island, a direct result of bad politics, has made living on the island a nightmare,'' Vásquez Portal said. ``No one feels love for a nightmare, so they try to forget it.''


But despite the lottery that allows 20,000 Cubans to arrive here legally each year, there are still those who brave rafting the Florida straits in the hopes of reaching Miami's shores. Some make it. But many end up getting intercepted by the Coast Guard and getting sent back to Cuba, something you don't read about in the Miami Herald.

In fact, during the last 10 months, 2,310 Cubans were intercepted at sea and sent back to Cuba, according to the U.S. Coast Guard.

http://www.uscg.mil/hq/g-o/g-opl/AMIO/FlowStats/USCG.htm

Last month, 159 Cubans were intercepted at sea and sent back to Cuba.

http://www.uscgsanfrancisco.com/go/doc/586/126805/

And during a 48-hour period in June, 133 Cubans were intercepted at sea and sent back to Cuba.

http://www.uscgsanfrancisco.com/go/doc/586/119914/

If things are so rosy in Cuba, why do thousands forgo the LEGAL way of entering this country? Why would they even try to emigrate here LEGALLY if Cuba was such a paradise?

[Mika]

275. maybe because they don't qualify.

FYI, not everyone who applies for a US immigration visa qualifies.

That is where the US's 'wet foot/dry foot' policy comes into play.

The USA currently offers over 20,000 LEGAL immigration visas per year to Cubans (and Bush has announced that the number would increase despite the fact that not all 20,000 were applied for in the last few years). This number is more than any other single country in the world. The US interests section in Cuba does the required criminal background check on the applicants.

The US's 'wet foot/ dry foot' policy (that applies to Cubans only) permits all Cubans, including Cuban criminals and felons, who arrive on US shores by illegal means to remain in the US even those having failed to qualify (or even apply) for a legal US immigration application.

Cubans who leave for the US without a US visa are returned to Cuba (if caught at sea - mainly in smuggler's go-fast boats @ $5,000 per head) by a US/Cuban repatriation agreement. But IF they make it to US soil, no matter who they are or what their criminal backround might be, they get to stay in the US and enjoy perks offered ONLY TO CUBAN IMMIGRANTS (via the US's Cuban Adjustment Act and a variety of other 'Cubans only' perks)

For Cuban migrants ONLY - including the aforementioned illegal immigrants who are smuggled in as well as those who have failed a US background check for a legal visa who make it here by whatever means - the US's Cuban Adjustment Act instantly allows any and all Cuban migrants who touch US shore (no matter how) instant entry, instant work visa, instant green card status, instant social security, instant access to welfare, instant access to section 8 assisted housing (with a $41,000 income exemption for Cuban expats only), instant food stamps, plus more. IOW, extra special enhanced social programs designed to entice Cuban expatriation to Miami/USA.

Despite these programs designed to offer a 'carrot on a stick' to Cubans only, the Cubaphobe rhetoric loop repeats the question "why do Cubans come to the US then?".

First the US forces economic deprivation on Cubans, then open our doors to any and all Cubans illegal or not, and then offer them a plethora of immigration perks and housing perks not even available to native born Americans.

But yet, more immigrants come from Mexico and the Latin Americas than do Cubans, and they have no such "Adjustment Act" like Cubans do. But they still pour in.

Plus, Cuban immigrants can hop on a plane from Miami to Havana and travel right back to the Cuba that they "escaped" from for family trips and vacations - by the hundred of thousands annually (until Bush's recent one visit every 3 yrs restrictions on Cuban expats living in the US).

Recognizing the immorality of forced starvation and forced economic deprivation is a good reason to drop the US embargo on Cuba, the US Cuban Adjustment Act, and the US travel sanctions placed on US citizens and residents. Then the Cuban tourism economy (its #1 sector) would be able to expand even faster, thereby increasing the average wage and quality of life in Cuba. It would make products, goods, and services even more accessible to both Cubans and Americans. It would reduce the economic based immigration flow from Cuba. And it would restore our own constitutional right to travel unfettered to see Cuba for ourselves.

-

Where have I ever said that Cuba is a paradise? You won't find anyplace where I have said that.

-

When I refer to the Miami gusanos I am not referring to all of Miami's Cuban immigrant population - just the minority worms who hit the streets burning US flags (like those who did during the Elain ordeal), or those who celebrate the supposed imminent death of Cuba's Head of State and call for the US takeover of Cuba's infrastructure (the US's so called "transition" plan for Cuba that privatizes most everything).

[Yupster]

314. Things really dropped from

1989 to 1993.

According to the book I just finished their college population has droppped by 50 % in the last 15 years.

[IndianaGreen]

18. Blame the Miami scum for hijacking our foreign policy towards Cuba

and blame the embargo for the shortages the Cuban people had to endure, except for those Cubans that got dollars from relatives in the US. Must be nice!

I have travelled to Cuba, recently.

Have you?

:rofl:

[Mika]

21. Speaking of shortages..

.. try holding your middle class/lower income budget together and not going bankrupt or into foreclosure if a family member comes down with a serious illness in the US.

In Cuba none of that happens. Medical care is high quality and no cost. Same goes for education, from pre K to Phd.

[nashville_brook]

251. rotflmaomf

i love it when people say "i've blah betty blah'd recently. have you."

as in Na n'Na n'Nah nah.

meaning... they've got nuthin.

[Yupster]

315. In the Book "After Fidel"

that I just finished, the author points to the American dollars as presenting a huge problem to Cuba.

It has created two economies where some people have access to dollars and others don't. The differences are huge. It also has a racial component to it since white Cubans are much more likely to have relatives in the USA than Black Cubans, the racial divide is growing there.

This is a real problem for the government, but there wasn't any other solution as something had to be done to replace the Soviet largesse that ended with the USSR. The answer was dollars from Miami, but that has created all kinds of problems.

[Minstrel Boy]

23. "conditions in Cuba are beyond what virtually westerner could imagine"

I know, I know; it's one giant prison camp.

Or is that just Guantanamo Bay?

[Judi Lynn]

35. That is probably the cutest Dachshund I've ever seen. Nice watch!

The other photos are wonderful, Mika!

[GuillermoX71]

40. Any pictures of the balseros?

How about some pictures of their hospitals, stores, or (crumbling) buildings on the Malecon?

[GuillermoX71]

52. Here are some picts for ya

<img src=""><P><img src=""><P><img src="">

[Judi Lynn]

54. Some dipstick posted those photos from that site here before.

It's been done already.

[Mika]

60. Therealcuba has been outed for faking pictures.

Only the clueless would post pics from that site.

[AlphaCentauri]

162. Memo I just saw a man like the one in the picture in Texas

He is living under the freeway bridge.

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

171. And there's a lot of Americans living like that here.

What's your point?

[gorbal]

195. I've seen worse pics of the US

I have seen far worse pictures of conditions in the US. Your propaganda isn't working, sorry.

[Endangered Specie]

285. So if I come across 'happy' photos of North Koreans...

than surely the rest of the nation lives in equal pleasure and things are going good?

Apply same logic to:
- Soviet Russia
- Communist China
- Fascist Italy
- Nazis
- Spain during and after civil war
etc...

[IndianaGreen]

24. Excuse my manners, GuillermoX71

but welcome to DU.

[IndianaGreen]

27. n/t

[Opusnone]

36. She's disappeared

Probably out in the streets of Little Havana planning her trip home.

[IndianaGreen]

42. Dreaming of returning to "23 y F"

and a Vedado flat, no doubt.

[NeoConsSuck]

47. I would love to travel to Cuba

but you see, my government won't let me, because then I could see what a pack of bullshit lies they've been feeding me for 50 years.

But I did return with some nice Cuban cigars on my recent trip to the Caribbean.

[karlrschneider]

55. So, tell us more William.

Es ud. Cubano?

[muryan]

70. The miami scum?

Damn them for wanting a better life, forshame.

[Ken Burch]

211. They want more wealth for a tiny few, and more poverty for the many

Look at Pinochet's Chile to see what all the Miami types want.
Also South Africa before the liberation.

There is no such thing as a progessive, humane Miami Cuban. Damn few non-racist ones either.

[Akim]

292. You Are Too Kind To Miami Gusanos

You are being too kind to the Miami gusanos. Pinochet's Chile or Botha's South Africa would seem like paradise compared to the Miami Cubans plans for a post-Castro Cuba. They are going to take back the island demographically, which means the extinction of Cuba's majority Afro-Cuban population (just as their ancestors killed off all the Indo-Cubans 500 years ago). Of course, Afro-Cubans will all be branded revolutionary (as most are) and killed ostensibly for that. But it won't be because they are Communists but because they are black. It's going to be the biggest holocaust since Nazi Germany. Indeed, Miami Cubans have always sympathized with Hitler as their Falangist parents did. No people on earth consider themselves more "white" than Cuban exiles. It's a joke, really, but they function under this delusion like the Jew who once rose to the leadership of the Nazi movement in the U.S. Just pure delusion, but it's a very dangerous delusion. These people should never be allowed to return to Cuba again. Their biggest allies, incidentally, are nazified Polish and Czech "democrats," who know a thing or two about getting rid of unwanted populations. They will provide the logistical know-how and the Miami gusanos will take care of the rest.

[zanne]

201. "Cuban-Americans don't want to free Cuba"...

"They want to own it". Somebody told me that once, and it stuck with me. How much of this noise originated from the once-wealthy families who owned a lot of real estate in Cuba?

[AlphaCentauri]

221. They want Cuba for free n/t

[Joanne98]

236. They want to steal the land.

[Mika]

15. Cubans can legally immigrate to the US - except criminals..

.. as per US immigration laws. The US allots over 20,000 immigration visas per year to Cuba (more than any other single country - not all are even applied for).

Then comes the US's 'wet foot/dry foot' policy that lets the Cuban criminals stay in the US if they make it here by smugglers boat or by raft - even if they FAILED a US immigration application due to a criminal background check done by the US interests section in Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

19. You forgot to include the Mexicans and other Latin Americans who die

by the hundreds each year in the deserts, mountains, rivers, and canals trying to get across the border, and the Haitians who die trying to make the 700 MILE trip to Florida, as well as the Dominicans, etc.. The others who finally make it here, from THESE countries, UNLIKE CUBANS, are not offered instant legal status the moment they step onto American soil, nor are they given Section 8 US taxpayer-donated free housing, free food stamps, social security, medical treatment, financial assistance for education, green card, and complete permanent status after one year.

I presume you're going to admit you didn't know some Cubans who come here also return to Cuba sometimes.

[Mika]

22. Oh yeah, they return to the "persecution" they "fled" from for vacations.

Of course, many Cuban immigrants are pissed at _{W Bush's} new policy limiting Cuban immigrant's return visits to Cuba to once every three years for direct relatives only.

[Judi Lynn]

32. It was a big shock to learn, during the time so much noise was being

made over the Cuban American National Foundation's efforts to keep Elián Gonzalez in the States, away from his own father, that his nearest relative (great uncle) Lázaro had met him before in Cuba, when he went there for vacation, and had even used Elián's father's own bedroom, graciously offered to him, while Elián's father, Juan Miguel slept in his car outside!

He repaid this kindness by spending his days fishing, and hanging out in the bars at night. What a tremendous visitor!

I think _Bush's nasty ban on even CUBANS not being able to go home more than once every three years is going to bite him back one day. I'll bet they don't like that one bit, or at least the sane ones. Who would?

[zanne]

202. It's time to go home, GuillermoX71.

And I'm not talking about Cuba.

[Vidar]

10. Agreed.

[Minstrel Boy]

8. Me too

I think the world needs him now, even if a great part of the world doesn't know it.

[muryan]

26. I sure as hell dont

Hopefully the people of Cuba can choose their own government. Totalitarians deserve painful deaths.

[Mika]

29. Cubans do choose their own government.

http://www.poptel.org.uk/cuba-solidarity/democracy.htm

This system in Cuba is based upon universal adult suffrage for all those aged 16 and over. Nobody is excluded from voting, except convicted criminals or those who have left the country. Voter turnouts have usually been in the region of 95% of those eligible .

There are direct elections to municipal, provincial and national assemblies, the latter represent Cuba's parliament.

Electoral candidates are not chosen by small committees of political parties. No political party, including the Communist Party, is permitted to nominate or campaign for any given candidates.

You can read a short version of the Cuban system here,
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Or a long and detailed version here,
http://www.amazon.com/exec/obidos/tg/detail/-/0968508405/qid=1053879619/sr=1-2/ref=sr_1_2/102-8821757-1670550?v=glance&s=books

[muryan]

30. And amazingly

they keep electing the person who has a strangle hold on their country, and has subjected them to mass poverty right?

[Mika]

37. Cubans don't agree with you.

Mr Castro is a revered revolutionary hero to most Cubans in Cuba. Sorta like Cuba's living George Washington.


Before the 1959 revolution

75% of rural dwellings were huts made from palm trees.

More than 50% had no toilets of any kind.

85% had no inside running water.

91% had no electricity.

There was only 1 doctor per 2,000 people in rural areas.

More than one-third of the rural population had intestinal parasites.

Only 4% of Cuban peasants ate meat regularly; only 1% ate fish, less than 2% eggs, 3% bread, 11% milk; none ate green vegetables.

The average annual income among peasants was $91 (1956), less than 1/3 of the national income per person.

45% of the rural population was illiterate; 44% had never attended a school.

25% of the labor force was chronically unemployed.

1 million people were illiterate ( in a population of about 5.5 million).

27% of urban children, not to speak of 61% of rural children, were not attending school.

Racial discrimination was widespread.

The public school system had deteriorated badly.

Corruption was endemic; anyone could be bought, from a Supreme Court judge to a cop.

Police brutality and torture were common.

___



After the 1959 revolution

“It is in some sense almost an anti-model,” according to Eric Swanson, the programme manager for the Bank’s Development Data Group, which compiled the WDI, a tome of almost 400 pages covering scores of economic, social, and environmental indicators.

Indeed, Cuba is living proof in many ways that the Bank’s dictum that economic growth is a pre-condition for improving the lives of the poor is over-stated, if not, downright wrong.

-

It has reduced its infant mortality rate from 11 per 1,000 births in 1990 to seven in 1999, which places it firmly in the ranks of the western industrialised nations. It now stands at six, according to Jo Ritzen, the Bank’s Vice President for Development Policy, who visited Cuba privately several months ago to see for himself.

By comparison, the infant mortality rate for Argentina stood at 18 in 1999;

Chile’s was down to ten; and Costa Rica, at 12. For the entire Latin American and Caribbean region as a whole, the average was 30 in 1999.

Similarly, the mortality rate for children under the age of five in Cuba has fallen from 13 to eight per thousand over the decade. That figure is 50% lower than the rate in Chile, the Latin American country closest to Cuba’s achievement. For the region as a whole, the average was 38 in 1999.

“Six for every 1,000 in infant mortality - the same level as Spain - is just unbelievable,” according to Ritzen, a former education minister in the Netherlands. “You observe it, and so you see that Cuba has done exceedingly well in the human development area.”

Indeed, in Ritzen’s own field, the figures tell much the same story. Net primary enrolment for both girls and boys reached 100% in 1997, up from 92% in 1990. That was as high as most developed nations - higher even than the US rate and well above 80-90% rates achieved by the most advanced Latin American countries.

“Even in education performance, Cuba’s is very much in tune with the developed world, and much higher than schools in, say, Argentina, Brazil, or Chile.”

It is no wonder, in some ways. Public spending on education in Cuba amounts to about 6.7% of gross national income, twice the proportion in other Latin American and Caribbean countries and even Singapore.

There were 12 primary school pupils for every Cuban teacher in 1997, a ratio that ranked with Sweden, rather than any other developing country. The Latin American and East Asian average was twice as high at 25 to one.

The average youth (age 15-24) illiteracy rate in Latin America and the Caribbean stands at 7%. In Cuba, the rate is zero. In Latin America, where the average is 7%, only Uruguay approaches that achievement, with one percent youth illiteracy.

“Cuba managed to reduce illiteracy from 40% to zero within ten years,” said Ritzen. “If Cuba shows that it is possible, it shifts the burden of proof to those who say it’s not possible.”

Similarly, Cuba devoted 9.1% of its gross domestic product (GDP) during the 1990s to health care, roughly equivalent to Canada’s rate. Its ratio of 5.3 doctors per 1,000 people was the highest in the world.

[muryan]

39. I would love to see

any information to back that up. Considering everyday they float to flordia on tree trunks, i doubt it. But if you can prove me wrong please enlighten me.

[Judi Lynn]

49. Why don't you click on the links Mika provided you? n/t

[muryan]

50. that is a link to the

supposed system of cuban government, that has absolutely nothing to do with what im asking. Im talking about fidels stranglehold on the country for about half a century and thats totalitarian. Regardless of whether they are leftist or rightist, having one person in total control of the goverment is a horrible thing.

[Judi Lynn]

58. You are telling DU'ers he has total control of the whole she-bang?

You know it takes a complete idiot to try to pass that one off.

[muryan]

61. Im not trying to pass anything off

Im just saying that if this surgery goes sour, im not going to mourn. I wouldnt expect anyone who values a democratic system to mourn either. There is no good that he has done that outweighs the bad.

[Judi Lynn]

75. Talk about "sore losers!" Cuba's throwing off a filthy, corrupt, vicious

dictator, sending many crooked scums scurrying off as fast as they could get out to Miami, Venezuela, Puerto Rico produced a group of dirty politicians, violent idiots who've been lying their asses off about why they had to leave right after the revolution, blowing smoke about what martyrs they were, how important they were, while they set up the very same dirty politics and rip off operations wherever they landed.

Miami is a laughing stock politically all over the country, from WAY before the 2000 Presidential election, but these creeps insist on claiming that before they got there, "Miami was a sleepy little fishing village, but NOW it has become a world-class city!" Oh, my God!

It's so world class the FBI named it as "Terror Capitol of the United States," it has been named the most violent city in the country multiple times, and has also been named, by the U.S. Census Bureau on several occassions as the "Poorest City in the United States with a population over 500,000."

Reading the local papers there about government officials and their pathetic, slimey dirty cheating and stealing, and VOTE FRAUD could make a healthy maggot gag.

Thank goodness for the area there are some new Cuban residents who live there who came here for work, and who admit to being ECONOMIC IMMIGRANTS, not poor little refugees. You also note that the newspapers are starting to refer to Cubans as "immigrants," and that they are losing their pathetic sympathy value they have tried so hard to cultivate.

[muryan]

81. Such hate for people

who are trying to escape a system that was suffocating them. Damn them for wanting to get away from a tyrant and a dictator. Also im fairly sure that miami is not 100% cuban, so before you start blaming crime rates on them you should look into the demographics of the crimes.

[Judi Lynn]

Sorry, dupe. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

90. The crime rates? Maybe this information will refresh your memory:

Here's a photo of the radio personality Emilio Milián, and how he liked it when they bombed his car after he stated on the radio show that the "exile" community needed to get the violence under control. (Talk about censorship.)



Partial list of Miami "exile" violence over the years:

1968 From MacArthur Causeway, pediatrician Orlando Bosch fires bazooka at a Polish freighter. (City of Miami later declares "Orlando Bosch Day." Federal agents will jail him in 1988.)

1972 Julio Iglesias, performing at a local nightclub, says he wouldn't mind "singing in front of Cubans." Audience erupts in anger. Singer requires police escort. Most radio stations drop Iglesias from playlists. One that doesn't, Radio Alegre, receives bomb threats.

1974 Exile leader José Elias de la Torriente murdered in his Coral Gables home after failing to carry out a planned invasion of Cuba.

1974 Bomb blast guts the office of Spanish-language magazine Replica.

1974 Several small Cuban businesses, citing threats, stop selling Replica.

1974 Three bombs explode near a Spanish-language radio station.

1974 Hector Diaz Limonta and Arturo Rodriguez Vives murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1975 Luciano Nieves murdered after advocating peaceful coexistence with Cuba.

1975 Another bomb damages Replica's office.

1976 Rolando Masferrer and Ramon Donestevez murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1976 Car bomb blows off legs of WQBA-AM news director Emilio Milian after he publicly condemns exile violence.

1977 Juan José Peruyero murdered in internecine exile power struggles.

1979 Cuban film Memories of Underdevelopment interrupted by gunfire and physical violence instigated by two exile groups.

1979 Bomb discovered at Padron Cigars, whose owner helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1979 Bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1980 Powerful anti-personnel bomb discovered at American Airways Charter, which arranges flights to Cuba.

1981 Bomb explodes at Mexican Consulate on Brickell Avenue in protest of relations with Cuba.

1981 Replica's office again damaged by a bomb.

1982 Two outlets of Hispania Interamericana, which ships medicine to Cuba, attacked by gunfire.

1982 Bomb explodes at Venezuelan Consulate in downtown Miami in protest of relations with Cuba.

1982 Bomb discovered at Nicaraguan Consulate.

1982 Miami Mayor Maurice Ferre defends $10,000 grant to exile commando group Alpha 66 by noting that the organization "has never been accused of terrorist activities inside the United States."

1983 Another bomb discovered at Replica.

1983 Another bomb explodes at Padron Cigars.

1983 Bomb explodes at Paradise International, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1983 Bomb explodes at Little Havana office of Continental National Bank, one of whose executives, Bernardo Benes, helped negotiate release of 3600 Cuban political prisoners.

1983 Miami City Commissioner Demetrio Perez seeks to honor exile terrorist Juan Felipe de la Cruz, accidentally killed while assembling a bomb. (Perez is now a member of the Miami-Dade County Public School Board and owner of the Lincoln-Martí private school where Elian Gonzalez is enrolled.)

1983 Gunfire shatters windows of three Little Havana businesses linked to Cuba.

1986 South Florida Peace Coalition members physically attacked in downtown Miami while demonstrating against Nicaraguan contra war.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cuba Envios, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes at Cubanacan, which ships packages to Cuba.

1987 Car belonging to Bay of Pigs veteran is firebombed.

1987 Bomb explodes at Machi Viajes a Cuba, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1987 Bomb explodes outside Va Cuba, which ships packages to Cuba.

1988 Bomb explodes at Miami Cuba, which ships medical supplies to Cuba.

1988 Bomb threat against WQBA-AM after commentator denounces Herrera bombing.

1988 Bomb threat at local office of Immigration and Naturalization Service in protest of terrorist Orlando Bosch being jailed.

1988 Bomb explodes near home of Griselda Hidalgo, advocate of unrestricted travel to Cuba.

1988 Bomb damages Bele Cuba Express, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Another bomb discovered at Almacen El Español, which ships packages to Cuba.

1989 Two bombs explode at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1990 Another, more powerful, bomb explodes outside the Cuban Museum of Art and Culture.

1991 Using crowbars and hammers, exile crowd rips out and urinates on Calle Ocho "Walk of Fame" star of Mexican actress Veronica Castro, who had visited Cuba.

1992 Union Radio employee beaten and station vandalized by exiles looking for Francisco Aruca, who advocates an end to U.S. embargo.

1992 Cuban American National Foundation mounts campaign against the Miami Herald, whose executives then receive death threats and whose newsracks are defaced and smeared with feces.

1992 Americas Watch releases report stating that hard-line Miami exiles have created an environment in which "moderation can be a dangerous position."

1993 Inflamed by Radio Mambí commentator Armando Perez-Roura, Cuban exiles physically assault demonstrators lawfully protesting against U.S. embargo. Two police officers injured, sixteen arrests made. Miami City Commissioner Miriam Alonso then seeks to silence anti-embargo demonstrators: "We have to look at the legalities of whether the City of Miami can prevent them from expressing themselves."

1994 Human Rights Watch/Americas Group issues report stating that Miami exiles do not tolerate dissident opinions, that Spanish-language radio promotes aggression, and that local government leaders refuse to denounce acts of intimidation.

1994 Two firebombs explode at Replica magazine's office.

1994 Bomb threat to law office of Magda Montiel Davis following her videotaped exchange with Fidel Castro.

1996 Music promoter receives threatening calls, cancels local appearance of Cuba's La Orquesta Aragon.

1996 Patrons attending concert by Cuban jazz pianist Gonzalo Rubalcaba physically assaulted by 200 exile protesters. Transportation for exiles arranged by Dade County Commissioner Javier Souto.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Little Havana's Centro Vasco restaurant preceding concert by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes.

1996 Firebomb explodes at Marazul Charters, which arranges travel to Cuba.

1996 Arson committed at Tu Familia Shipping, which ships packages to Cuba.

1997 Bomb threats, death threats received by radio station WRTO-FM following its short-lived decision to include in its playlist songs by Cuban musicians.

1998 Bomb threat empties concert hall at MIDEM music conference during performance by 91-year-old Cuban musician Compay Segundo.

1998 Bomb threat received by Amnesia nightclub in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban musician Orlando "Maraca" Valle.

1998 Firebomb explodes at Amnesia nightclub preceding performance by Cuban singer Manolín.

1999 Violent protest at Miami Arena performance of Cuban band Los Van Van leaves one person injured, eleven arrested.

1999 Bomb threat received by Seville Hotel in Miami Beach preceding performance by Cuban singer Rosita Fornes. Hotel cancels concert.

January 26, 2000 Outside Miami Beach home of Sister Jeanne O'Laughlin, protester displays sign reading, "Stop the deaths at sea. Repeal the Cuban Adjustment Act," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.

April 11, 2000 Outside home of Elian Gonzalez's Miami relatives, radio talk show host Scot Piasant of Portland, Oregon, displays T-shirt reading, "Send the boy home" and "A father's rights," then is physically assaulted by nearby exile crowd before police come to rescue.
(snip/)

http://www.miaminewtimes.com/issues/2000-04-20/mullin_full.html

[killbotfactory]

179. Those are obviously the actions of brave freedom fighters

Just imagine when Cuba is finally liberated by these great republicans!

[Judi Lynn]

185. There'd be a whole lot of wincing going on! They're ready for them,

no doubt, as they know all about _Bush's big neocon plans to really ream their island as soon as he can.

[RebelOne]

194. And don't forget the Mariel boat lift.

That's when Castro opened up all his prisons and sent the inmates to Miami. The crime in Miami skyrocketed then.

[Mika]

206. Castro didn't "send" them to Miami. Miamiexiles picked them up..

.. and brought them to Miami by boats. It was one of the largest mass illegal migration ops in US history.

[IntiRaymi]

249. You are wallowing in a fallacy.

If it's good news, it must be propaganda. If it's bad news, it's the truth.

[IndianaGreen]

31. Yes, Bush and Cheney deserve a painful end game

Totalitarians deserve painful deaths.

:popcorn:

[muryan]

34. sadly

they were elected/appointed. Their reign is over in 2008. Cuba has no such hope of getting rid of the castro family.

[IndianaGreen]

38. You have been watching too much Faux News

I wonder if you think Cubans will be better off with an American style HMO, or perhaps the Catholic Church will reassert her pre-Revolutionary preeminence at the expense of all other religious beliefs, or even better, Cuban Jews will be subjected to the anti-Semitism that permeates CANF. There is no end to the bad things that could happen to Cubans if the Miami Phalange were to take power with the backing of US Marines.

Will young Cuban girls become prey to American sexual predators as they were prior to the Revolution?

[muryan]

41. I dont watch fox news

your hat is too tight. :tinfoilhat:

[TheWatcher]

274. And your "facts" are too crooked

Kind of balances it out.

[TheWatcher]

273. Sadly, once again you don't know what you are talking about

They have never been elected.

They were installed by the Supreme Court in 2000, and they stole 2004.

But by all means, continue your efforts. If anything, you are amusingly entertaining.

[Ken Burch]

307. You are assuming that we'll be ALLOWED an election in 2008

I admire your optimism.

[ronnykmarshall]

69. Yeah ol Fidel is SUCH a good guy!

Mother fucker just LOVES the gay people in Cuba.

What a swell guy.

Drop dead mother fucker.

[IndianaGreen]

77. Raul Castro's daughter is the head of Cuba's LGBTs

and they got same sex marriage approved, which is something America has yet to do.

Cuba did not lay another country to waste, as our pal Israel has done to Lebanon.

Cuban troops did not invade another country for its oil, as the US did in Iraq.

Given a choice between Fidel and Bush, I'll take Fidel.

[Mika]

84. There's legislation pending that will normalize sex change surgeries..

.. for free by the Cuban Ministry of Health.

A little too progressive for many DUers, I guess. :shrug:

[Mika]

79. I guess that's why gay civil unions and marriage are legal in Cuba?

It would good get up to date with the current Cuba, instead of regurgitating the same old tired tales from the past.

[ronnykmarshall]

99. and this started ..... WHEN????

So the people that were jailed and murdered don't count for shit, right?

You know god damn good and well that in Cuba, the former USSR and the fucking US that gays were KILLED for being gay.

Castro can suck my dick. I am so over this "oh Castro did this, Castro did that" bullshit. The mother fucker didn't give a flying FUCK about gay people. Yeah maybe the guy "woke up" but does that excuse the past? Hell, let's just give ol' Hitler another change. Ol' Adolph might have turned out to be a SWELL guy!

Oh I agree with you that Cuba has MILES ahead of this fucking country in many ways .... but isn't this the same as saying poor ol' George Wallace was 'just confused' back in the 50's and 60's?

[Mika]

114. About five years ago

-Gays Wed In Cuba:
The Second Revolution
http://www.thegully.com/essays/cuba/010621gay_cuba.html

JUNE 21, 2001. A few hours before floats, rainbow flags, and a sea of humanity filled Sao Paulo's central Avenida Paulista last Sunday for Latin America's biggest ever Pride Parade, Agence France Presse reported that, in Cuba, two gay male couples also made history by publicly holding the first gay wedding there.

I certainly don't condone the mistake of bigotry/homophobia made in the past, BUT, Cuba is much more progressive than most any other Caribbean and Latin American country in this regard TODAY.

[ronnykmarshall]

142. WOW!

That's soooo swell.

Bravo to Castro. I knew there was a reason we named a street after the ol' dude in SF for somthin'. Who knew?

[Mika]

147. Castro?

Mr Castro had nothing to do with the legalization of gay civil unions in Cuba. The elected Cuban National Assembly (the Cuban Parliament) did.

I thought you were sick of the "Castro this and Castro that" crap.

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

Obsessing over Castro is just what has kept Americans stuck in the mud over what's going on in Cuba NOW. Its a waste of time.


I've been to Cuba many times, and it is NOTHING like the picture US propaganda has painted.

[ronnykmarshall]

168. I'm just yankin' your chain.

Must be the gin or heat. Don't know which one is stronger.

[lumpy]

181. Your remarks are better suited

to the lounge. Castro St. was not named after Fidel, that street is older than Castro, by the way.

[lumpy]

180. Talk to Pat Roberton & Jerry Fallwell

and their Fundy followers , maybe they can help you get the legislation you want, yeah. we have plenty of people right here at home including political hacks that would love to see gay rights severed.

[Snivi Yllom]

80. this should be interesting

can't say I will be sorry to see Castro go

[Judi Lynn]

82. Hey, nice try! Maybe you could take the time to read more often.

Looks as if you missed an AP article Indiana Green posted here earlier! The CNN site doesn't have it, so here it is, from another site:

Kudos to Mariela Castro, Fidel's niece, for this completely rational and progressive program.

Castro's niece behind revolution in sexual politics
Havana (Reuters) -- Mariela Castro is leading a Cuban revolution less well-known than her Uncle Fidel's -- one in favor of sexual tolerance within the island's macho society.

Castro, 43, is leading the charge from her government-funded National Center for Sex Education, based in an old Havana mansion.

As director of the group, she promoted a soap opera that scandalized many Cubans in March by sympathetically depicting bisexuality. The controversial show depicted, among other story lines, the life of a construction worker who leaves his wife and children for the man next door.

Now President Castro's niece is pushing for passage of a law that would give transsexuals free sex-change operations and hormonal therapy in addition to granting them new identification documents with their changed gender.

A draft bill was presented to parliament last year and was well-received, she said. It is expected to come up for a vote in December.

If approved, it would make Cuba the most liberal nation in Latin America on gender issues.
(snip/...)

http://www.deeperwants.com/cul1/homeworlds/journal/archives/004049.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here's one of the threads in which this subject has been discussed here:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x219824

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Here is an article referring to the Cuban gay tv series mentioned in the article above:
http://cbs4.com/entertainment/local_story_158162533.html

[muryan]

86. Having an enlightened daughter

doesnt make up for dead bodies.

[IndianaGreen]

88. Having Jenna Bush sure has Cuba beat, heh?

Dead bodies? How many civilians has Bush murdered in Iraq? A conservative estimate puts the number at between 100,000 to 250,000. How much destruction has Israel brought to Lebanon? 600 dead civilians, massive damage to the country's cities and towns, and nearly a fourth of the population made refugees in their own country.

Looks to me that when it comes to "dead bodies," Cuba cannot compete with the likes of the USA and Israel.

[muryan]

89. Well if you are counting Israel along with US

then you can count USSR along with Cuba. What was Stalins body count again...? Ill be here all week.

[IndianaGreen]

93. Stalin didn't have a Religious Right problem like we do in America

and that alone, makes him a righteous dude!

[muryan]

96. Id rather have a president

from the religious right, than one from the stalin left. Nothing about stalin is righteous, history will shine a black light on him as is deserved.

[IndianaGreen]

100. Well, you got your president "from the religious right"

I am sure that Bush will do all he can to expedite the Second Coming.

[muryan]

102. And guess what

there are no gulags, im still alive and so are you. I dare say that would not be the case under stalin.

[IndianaGreen]

108. No gulags in Bush's America? What the hell do you think Guantanamo is?

And what about Bush's dictatorial claims, including his claim that he can hold someone indefinitely without charges. Not even Cuba does that!

[muryan]

113. No, they just dont say it when they do it

how many american civilians are being held captive at gitmo as political prisoners?

[merwin]

193. So are American citizens worth more than Iraqi citizens?

We are holding thousands of them in gulags, basically as political prisoners, in the name of Democracy.

How are Iraqi's worth less than Americans?

[TheWatcher]

276. Name ONE thing this giggling murderer has done to benefit this country.

Since it seems that you approve of the bastard so much, I'm sure you have a BIG list.

[Akim]

303. Human Dignity — That's What Fidel's Gave His People

One thing?

Human dignity.

That's worth more than all the gadgets of a consumer society.

Better to consume nothing and have human dignity than to waddle in luxury without human dignity.

[muryan]

105. I also seem to recall

you being one to curse the name of israel for every civilian that is accidentally killed, yet you seem to embrace the millions upon millions that stalin killed. Just for clarification, how are you not a hypocrite and why should I care what you say?

[lumpy]

183. Indiana, why are you giving this guy

the time of day? He'spinning around like a wobbley top. He obviously has an agenda that is not in accord with many here.

[muryan]

186. God forbid

I stand with the democratic platform on cuba. I'm not sure what you mean by "spinning around like a wobbley top" but hell, I'm pretty sure that when you explain it I still wont know.

[RagingInMiami]

262. I don't know what his "agenda" is

But I will state for the record that I am a liberal who is not a Castro worshipper, if that is what you mean by not being "in accord with many here."

[High Plains]

153. I don't think you have to worry too much about a Stalinist president

...but if that's what turns you on.

[muryan]

155. Im not worried about it

I was just matching his arguement

[BreweryYardRat]

230. Are you SHITTING ME?!

Please, for the love of God, tell me you're high right now/were high when you made that post. Then that little remark might be forgivable.

Stalin killed over 10 million people through gulags and famine. And you're saying that because he had no members of the religious right urging him on he was a "righteous dude?" Man, you're making me ashamed to post here.

[lumpy]

182. So you don't like Castro.

Nothing to argue here. Who cares if you don't. Your waves don't count.

[muryan]

187. Youre right

I don't, and I'm not entirely sure why everyone here is singing his praises. Thats my arguement.

[ronnykmarshall]

94. ooooo nice come back.

So all the fags and dykes that died under Castro are just ........ expendable? Yeah bring up Jenna Bush to try and justify your glorifying this fucker.

Next.

[IndianaGreen]

98. You are the one using words like "fags and dykes"

Your pals in CANF are not LGBT-friendly, or Jewish-friendly either!

[ronnykmarshall]

107. My pals in the what?

Just who are "my pals" in the CANF .... whatever the fuck that is.

FYI Miss Thang, I am a "fag" and I want to get all pissy and throw those fucking words around I've fucking EARNED that right.

So please enlighten me o mighty one as to who the fuck my "pals" are.

[IndianaGreen]

115. "Fag" is never right. "Queer" is okay. "Dyke" is never used unless

you are speaking to a "Dyke on Bikes" member.

And don't give me that self-serving crap about you being gay and throw a hissy-fit about it. You are not the only LGBT on this board.

Here is a primer on Cuban exiles:

Lesson #1:

CANF = Cuban-American National Foundation.

[muryan]

117. You are telling a gay person

what is right and wrong to call himself? There is a limit to being political correct, and youve found it

[Judi Lynn]

120. I think I hear your mother calling you. n/t

[muryan]

125. Please try to make some

little bit of sense. I mean you obviously know how old i am, because you are all knowing. I wish I was that smart, probably about to collapse under the weight of your own genius...

[nick303]

146. You are wasting your time arguing with the faithful

If you destroy their argument, you will receive childish insults.

If you post so much as a word without a link, it will be denied until you provide a link.

When you provide a link, it will be denied anyway since it goes against the faith (tm).

[muryan]

148. My mistake

thanks for the correction. :)

[Mika]

161. Not a problem. muryan is light on links anyway.

Seems like your point applies to the Castrophobes. Nothing will stop Castrophobes from obsessing over him.

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

[muryan]

164. yea I try not to link

tinfoil third party sites that have a base of about 20 readers.

[IndianaGreen]

123. You bet I do!

Just like I don't care for the beef vs. fish jokes!

[ronnykmarshall]

124. smooch!

Sorry but I know I'm getting a bit hot under the collar right now, but this shit is pissing me off.

[ronnykmarshall]

121. Oh forgive me!!!

I need to check the "rules". I bow once again to your greatness.

[muryan]

127. I'm just waiting

until he tells me something i don't know about myself, I'm giddy with anticipation.

[IndianaGreen]

137. "lesbian" is the preferred term for women, "gay" is the one for men

then we get into the alphabet soup of intersexed, transgendered, etc. The point is that people should be treated with respect, and this is particularly true when dealing with people that have been marginalized by prejudice and bigotry in society.

Here is the point that you obviously missed in your upbringing: When you use words that have been used to oppress, you are empowering the people that used those words.

[ronnykmarshall]

140. Oh damn ...... I must check w/ m' mom .....

my "upbringing" doesn't meet your high standards.

Thanks MOM!!!

[muryan]

141. Frankly

If a gay guy wants to call himself a fag, like a lot of gay guys i know do. They can. GASP! You have no right to tell them what they cant say. If you want to walk up to a group of black men, and tell them they cant call themselves "niggas", then go for it but don't cry when they aren't happy with you. People sometimes like using those words in defiance of the bigots who used them to oppress. They are in a sense, taking the word out of a negative light and placing it in a positive one in which that particular group has defined.

[ronnykmarshall]

129. Oh thanks of the lesson m' dear.

I'll have to send the CANF a nice fruit cake this holiday season since they are such "good friends" of mine.

[Judi Lynn]

104. I have NEVER found any reference to ANY gay people who were

killed. You are claiming some people acheived martyrdom for their sexuality.

This doesn't show up anywhere in research. Maybe you could guide someone to a site which discusses it.

[Mika]

111. You are asking just too too much, Judi

Links? Evidence?

maybe alpha66 or therealcuba has some links. :rofl:

[Judi Lynn]

118. I'll never forget the first time I saw someone play the old "therealcuba"

card on DU'ers. Unbelievable. Takes all kinds, doesn't it?

That guy didn't stay long, unfortunately.

[muryan]

119. dead people

cant use the internet, at last check. (technology hasnt came that far)

[Judi Lynn]

122. What sense did THAT make? n/t

[muryan]

128. Makes more sense

that wishing fidel castro a speedy recovery.

[Mika]

Seems like you can't either.

Response to post #119

[Judi Lynn]

133. So it seems! n/t

[muryan]

Yes I cant use the internet

I suppose this is what happens when you cant back up a point, you become a 2 year old and take pot shots at the person who points out the ugly truth. That the world will be a better place with castro dead. So please continue being juvenile, it makes you look brilliant.

[lumpy]

184. Hey, this guy crawled out of the lounge

to test his high school debating skills. So far an F.

[muryan]

188. And your contribution to the discussion is...?

Absolutely nothing. No comments from the peanut gallery, if you want to try and bash me go for it. I won't lose any sleep over it

[Akim]

287. Fidel Has Never Killed or Imprisoned Gays

Fidel Castro has never killed or even imprisoned any gay during his entire 47 years in power. He has, in fact, been their greatest protector and sponsor. In fact, I think it would be fair to say that he saved Cuba's gay population from 500 years of persecution by the Church and state. This traditional anti-gay machismo has not been easy to conquer, but Castro has done so in the same effective way that he has cured all other social ills in Cuba.

Before 1959, at least half the women in Cuba were engaged in prostitution. A very large number of the men were also pimps or gigolos catering to both sexes. So called "decent society" had given up on these people as "scum." Fidel saw them as human beings victimized by an unjust social order whose lives needed to be reclaimed so that they could become useful members of society.

To shield them from the ages-old prejudices, Fidel created rehabilitation centers where their medical needs could be addressed (almost all were suffering from venereal diseases) and they could be taught useful trades and re-introduced into a fairer and more tolerant society.

Many of those in the rehabilitation centers happened to be gay, but they were not there because they were gay; nor was their sexual orientation challenged. Instead, they were reassured that it was irrelevant for the formation of the "new man" in Cuba. Socialism, which embraced people as a whole, would not exclude them from the bright future that was opening for all Cubans, regardless of sex, color or sexual orientation.

Very few of these individuals, whether gay or straight, ever returned to their former lives, but were fully integrated into society. From their ranks came community leaders, government ministers and even archbishops.

It is fair to say that never in history has any program to change the self-destructive behavior of social outcastes been more successful than the UMAP re-education center.

I think that many on this forum have been too lax in accepting claims that gays were persecuted in Cuba in the 1960s. Don't let yourselves be sucked in by gusano lies to the point that you become defensive or tacitly agree with the enemy.

Not one inch must be surrendered in the battle of ideas!

[ronnykmarshall]

91. Thank YOU!

God! I am so fucking sick of the Castro ass kissers.

So maybe La Castro had a "change of heart" ... but fuck that shit.

And fuck the god-damn US embargo.

Fuck Bush.

Fuck the neo-con Miami anti-Castro Cubans.

Fuck every god-damn dictator in the world.

And fucker anyone that thinks the murder of gay people are just ..... oh part of the progress.

You assholes that sing the "glory" of Castro PLEASE explain the bullshit that went on before ol' cigar boy "woke up"!

Oh, who gives a fuck about those fags and dykes that died. Castro has learned.

Bull fucking shit.

[High Plains]

157. Thank you for that well-considered opinion.

I'll take it for what it's worth.

By the way, did you ever actually come up with any dead Cuban gays? Seriously. I remember when the Cuban government was quarantining either gays or people with AIDS, but I don't know what dead guys you're screeching about.

[Judi Lynn]

101. Where are the dead bodies? Do you mean the people Batista

tortured to death? Those dead bodies?

What about the dead bodies thrown out of cars by death squads like Masferrer's Tigers, or hung from light poles, or even in trees? Those bodies?

[ronnykmarshall]

110. Oh forgive me....

I forgot about how gays and lesbians lived in a utopia when Castro took over.

Damn, I must have missed that memo.

[Judi Lynn]

126. Sorry, ronnykmarshall, that particular question was directed at muryan or

whatever the newcomer's name is.

I wouldn't have asked that of you. It wouldn't have fit the context of "our" conversation, I believe.

[ronnykmarshall]

131. No problemo sweetie. q

I'm just in a "mood" tonight. For some reason I feel like being a little shit. Must be the heat.

Ya know I loves y'all more than my luggage!

[Judi Lynn]

136. Is this yours?

[ronnykmarshall]

138. Tee-hee!

That's one of them. My faves is a Bob Mackie!!!!!!

[Judi Lynn]

175. I've located photos of Mariela Castro, mentioned earlier.

?

Note the lack of horns, or a tail.

[IndianaGreen]

259. I wonder if she is the young woman that Raul kisses in the video

that MSM has been showing of him. There are very few clips of Raul, so the MSM has been showing what little they have in a montage. In one of the clips, Raul is walking past a group of demonstrators when as he passes a woman in her thirties in the crowd, Raul stops dead on his tracks with this look of surprise. Raul turns around, walks to the woman, and kisses her in the cheek. When Raul begins to walk away, he has this look of pride that one normally sees in a parent, or grandparent. The young woman looked like a younger version of Mariela. Could be her sister.

[Judi Lynn]

270. Haven't ever seen that clip, yet. I hope I will! It sounds very easily

as if you have read it correctly, then.

I just did a check, didn't find out anything important other than he has 4 kids. Sounds as if Mariela is going to be very well known on her own quickly. I'll bet you're right on the clip.

Found this small touch at the bottom of a story:

As reclusive as his sibling was drawn to the limelight, Raul Castro has made few public appearances, given only a handful of interviews and often disappeared for months or even years.

"Every so often a rumor gets started that I died," he quipped to Cuban journalists when he surfaced in December 1991 after a long absence.

"During the Pan-American Games, they were saying I was being kept in a freezer."
(snip/)

http://ktla.trb.com/news/ktla-castro,0,7216438.story?coll=ktla-news-1

[IndianaGreen]

83. Cuba to give transsexuals free sex-change operations and hormonal therapy

Castro's niece behind revolution in sexual politics

Mariela Castro wants macho society's attitudes, policies to change

Thursday, June 29, 2006; Posted: 4:59 p.m. EDT (20:59 GMT)

HAVANA, Cuba (Reuters) -- Mariela Castro is leading a Cuban revolution less well-known than her Uncle Fidel's -- one in favor of sexual tolerance within the island's macho society.

Castro, 43, is leading the charge from her government-funded National Center for Sex Education, based in an old Havana mansion.

As director of the group, she promoted a soap opera that scandalized many Cubans in March by sympathetically depicting bisexuality. The controversial show depicted, among other story lines, the life of a construction worker who leaves his wife and children for the man next door.

Now President Castro's niece is pushing for passage of a law that would give transsexuals free sex-change operations and hormonal therapy in addition to granting them new identification documents with their changed gender.

A draft bill was presented to parliament last year and was well-received, she said. It is expected to come up for a vote in December.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_topic&forum=221&topic_id=37509

[HarukaTheTrophyWife]

176. Well, he's not going to win any fans with ronnkymarshall for that.

[Akim]

296. Free Sex-Change Operations in the U.S.

But don't you know that sex-change operations are also free in the United States? All an aspiring transexual has to do is cut off his own genitals with a razor blade, and if he doesn't bleed to death, the doctors at the hospital will sew him up.

I guess that the uninsured could make that work for almost any operation they may require.

I wish Castro would send us 10,000 doctors so that the poor of this country might have some other choice than self-mutilation.

[David__77]

220. I don't agree with your assessment.

I'm gay. Castro and the Cuban Communist Party certainly were, like most political parties in Latin America, anti-gay. They imprisoned many gay people, which also was not unique. What is now good is that they have changed their position 100%. There's still a long way to go. If Ileana Ros-Lehtinen were in charge of Cuba, things would be far worse for gay Cubans.

[Ken Burch]

235. We can assume that the Miami Gusanos are just as bad on gay/lesbian issues

right-wingers always are. Especially right-wingers that build bombs all the time.

Cuba would be ten times worse if the Bay of Pigs had succeeded. It would be the Guatemalan military junta on steroids.

[Akim]

288. MIami Gusanos, World's Biggest Homophobes

The homophobia that Fidel Castro has eliminated from Cuban society still flourishes in Miami among the heirs of the inquisitors who burned gays at the stake in autos-da-fé in Cathedral Square well into the 19th century. This pervasive homophobia is used to cover the fact that at least 70% of Cuban-American males have engaged in furtive gay activity while maintaining "respectable families" and indulging a penchant for gay-bashing that is unrivalled in the world. Their attempts to label Fidel as anti-gay is simply a classic instance of self-loathing and guilt-displacement.

[Judi Lynn]

301. It's hard not to wonder about their overwhelming hostility toward gays.n/t

[AlamoDemoc]

4. have you read "Planning for the Re-Colonization of Cuba"?

here is the link

http://www.zmag.org/content/showarticle.cfm?ItemID=10571

[Judi Lynn]

192. Oh, jeez.Just got to a quiet time and took my first look at this article.

I've been hearing about what's discussed it it for quite a while, but have never seen it all spelled out like that at one time.

Unacceptable. I hope the Cuban people will fight like madmen, with ever fiber in their bodies. This CANNOT be allowed.

I've saved the rest to read later, and to share. Thank you very much for posting it.

[rusty charly]

5. "Cuba undergoes invasion for oil, government says."

[greatauntoftriplets]

6. Link from the Chicago Tribune, which doesn't say much.

http://www.chicagotribune.com/news/chi-060731castro,0,4850468.story?coll=chi-newsbreaking-hed

[IndianaGreen]

7. The story is breaking as we post

HAVANA - Cuban President Fidel Castro underwent intestinal surgery Monday and delegated government functions provisionally to his younger brother Raul Castro, the government said in a televised statement signed by the Cuban leader.

Castro, who turns 80 on Aug. 13 and has led Cuba since a 1959 revolution, delegated his posts as first secretary of the ruling Communist Party, commander in chief of the armed forces and president of the executive council of state to his brother.

Check back for updates in this breaking story.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/14126537/

[mike_c]

11. I wish him well, but fear that this is not good...

At his age, recovery will be difficult, and might initiate a cascade of health failures.

[seafan]

13. GI bleeding, secondary to stress from public appearances

From the Miami Herald:

In the letter read by his secretary Carlos Valenciaga, Castro said he had suffered gastrointestinal bleeding, apparently due to stress from recent public appearances in Argentina and Cuba, and had to undergo an operation.

[Mika]

14. Miami is in FULL MELTDOWN mode right now!

Every local TV and radio station is in full anti Castro mode X 10.

[IndianaGreen]

20. I am sure Otto Reich is having multiple orgasms

They are all far rightwing Republicans that want to impose their extremely intolerant religious views on Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

43. Now THERE'S a semi-unpleasant image!

He'll probably explode into thousands of bogus propaganda pieces which can be sent as usual to news outlets as the real thing AGAIN. Just the way he used to do it for Reagan, too, before the U.S. Senate caught him and charged him with conducting an illegal propaganda program.

On edit: Same guy _Bush hired back in a recess appointment behind the Senate's back.

[uppityperson]

25. I wish him well also.

[IndianaGreen]

28. Fidel will be out of action for several weeks

Castro's secretary, Carlos Balenciago, read a letter he said was from the president in which he said stress had forced him into surgery and that he would be in bed for several weeks after the operation was complete. Castro turns 80 on August 13.

Raul Castro also assumes control over the armed forces and the leadership of the Communist Party, according to the statement.

http://www.cnn.com/2006/WORLD/americas/07/31/cuba.castro/index.html

[Mika]

33. "Exiles" are dancing in Calle Ocho in Miami blocking traffic w/Cuban flags

On the street interviews by local TV reveal the level of insanity among them. :crazy:

[Opusnone]

44. Are you seeing this, too?

Who got booted out of Hell's Kitchen?

[Lost-in-FL]

65. I can't believe she's gone!!

:grr:

Sara? Was that her name? The latin girl.

[Judi Lynn]

97. Same here. She was great. I think it's Sara Ibarra. n/t

[muryan]

46. good for them n/t

[IndianaGreen]

95. Deja Vu to the Elian Gonzales fiasco!

CNN is showing those idiots dancing in Miami.

[tanyev]

200. I guess that means Cuban flags are OK, then.

Mexican flags = bad; Cuban flags = good. Got it.

Yep. :crazy:

[KamaAina]

231. It is absolutely stomach-churning

These are pretty much the same people who took to the streets to keep Elian Gonzalez apart from his dad. :puke: (One wonders how many votes that fiasco might have cost President Gore, setting the stage for the Katherine Harris/hanging chad meltdown...)

Do they really believe that Castro's brother is going to throw open the gates and let them all come back in and reopen their dress shops or whatever from fifty years ago? :eyes:

edit: no 't', please

[RagingInMiami]

263. I was there for two hours tonight taking photos

They are centered only in front of Versaille. I would estimate there was about 50 Cubans. And about 50 media people.

This constant generalizing of the entire Miami Cuban community as Gusanos shows the ignorance and intolerance on this site. Fucking sad.

[Judi Lynn]

264. I think Mika knows whereof he speaks. His late wife was Cuban.

A lot of DU'ers are aware that some "exiles" surely deserve the "gusano" label the Cubans have given them.

[Mika]

266. Don't forget that there were groups on 8th y 57 and Bird y 87

Yes I do know that the number of media ghouls just about equals the number of worms on the streets.

Just like during the Elian adventure in front of the drunken uncle's house.

--

Speaking of generalizing, I notice that you don't hesitate to generalize about all of the Cubans "all of them" who are "constantly washing up on Miami's shores".

I guess that, for you, generalizing is only OK when you're the one doing the generalizing.

[Judi Lynn]

267. As soon as I heard they were all cavorting in the streets, I realized they

all knew that if they raced to the streets and acted like a-holes, they would be guaranteed to get on tv and maybe in the paper. It's a given.

Irresistable for a congenital idiot!

[RagingInMiami]

268. Are you talking the Tamiami Trail and Red Road?

I drive through there almost everynight either to get to the 836 or towards downtown and I have not seen anybody there. I heard they were some on 8th and 87th, but I imagine it would be about the same size as the Versaille crowd.

There is no denying there are Cubans out on the streets waving their flags, but they are an extreme minority when you consider the number of Cubans who live down here.

[Mika]

277. Some vid for you of worms celebrating at more than just Calle Ocho

More proof that what I say is accurate.


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJcMLNs7lq8&mode=related&search=

[RagingInMiami]

279. An honest question for you, Mika

Why do you insist on living in Miami if you hate these Cubans so much? Even Broward would probably make you happier.

[Mika]

280. How can such a question be honest when it lacks honest intent?

As you yourself have pointed out, the gusanos celebrating their projection of Mr Castro's imminent death in Miami represent an extreme minority. Why on earth would I let an extreme minority motivate me to leave a place that I love? I have many Cuban friends, both in Miami and in Cuba, and I love them dearly. I don't want to be parted from any more of them than I already am by the unjust and cruel travel restrictions placed on us by this government that prevents all of us from freely and easily visiting our friends in Cuba.


Your question assumes, dishonestly imo, something that simply isn’t. Just because there a few bad apples doesn't mean that I don't like apples.

[RagingInMiami]

281. There is no dishonest intent in my question

You're reading too much into it. I just read a lot of contempt for Miami Cubans in your posts.

[Mika]

290. I have constantly defended non gusano Cuban-Americans..

.. by repeatedly pointing out to the misinformed that Miami's Cuban community is not represented by the extremist minority. You must've missed those numerous posts of mine.

[RagingInMiami]

293. That's what's been irritating me about many of these posts on this thread

Many from DUers who have probably never set foot in Miami. The way that ALL Miami Cubans are being generalized as Gusanos.

[Judi Lynn]

271. By the way, Mika, have you heard any noise from Miguel Saavedra

who lead the gusano attack on the Miami-Dade vote recount when the Miami Cuban hate-radio stations put out the call for right-wing loons to storm them? There was a great article written about him and Vigilia Mambisa (rent-a-riot) right after they made election 2000 asses of themselves with their "Sore-Loserman" signs, and worse.



Maybe he's decided he should save his energy for the really BIG events, and should avoid leaping and howling like a hyena for just any occassion.

[Odin2005]

48. Cubans support Castro because the alternative is Batista 2.0.

[muryan]

51. another voice of reason n/t

[Mika]

56. Cubans support their system of government.

Fidel is just the figurehead.

[muryan]

59. just like the chinese

right?

[eridani]

92. Exactly the opposite of the Chinese

The Chinese let their political prisoners make teddy bears for Toys 'R Us, and Cuba doesn't. Which is why we outsource so many of our jobs to China and embargo Cuba. Now you know the difference between good Communists and bad Communists.

[robcon]

62. Keep believing that, Mika.

If it makes you feel good.

[Mika]

67. Keep denying it, robcon

If it makes you feel better.

[muryan]

68. nobody here

has proved to me or anyone else that the cuban people are happy and thriving under fidel castro. Until otherwise ill continue to think that the castro lineage being out of power is a great thing.

[Snivi Yllom]

85. like the North Koreans?

Kim is just the figurehead.

[Mika]

106. Nope.

I said no such thing.

--

One point worth noting: Rummy didn't sell Cuba nukular technology like he did N Korea.

[muryan]

130. That was Albright

+fact check.

[Name removed]

135. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muryan]

143. Thats funny

since NK has had nuke technology since at least '98. Keep trying

[Mika]

149. Where's your link on Albright selling N K nuclear tech?

You made that claim in post #130

What I said was that Rummy sold NK nukular tech, but not to Cuba. I backed it up with a link that shows that Rummy was on the board of ABB when it sold nuke tech to NK.

Where's the link to your claim that Albright did so?

[muryan]

152. its in the middle

http://www.cdi.org/nuclear/nk-fact-sheet.cfm

[Mika]

156. Huh? Its not anywhere there.

I've read it, and there's nothing about Albright being on the board of any company, or related to any company, that sold NK nuke tech.

That was your claim.

Please post a link to back it up.

[muryan]

159. I wasnt talking about a company

I was talking about her being the broker of a deal involving the clinton administration that traded civilian nuke technology for a freeze on a weapons program, which is plainly stated in the article.

[Name removed]

163. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muryan]

166. There was no shift

You just misinterpreted what I said. I really don't watch fox news, and I can almost guarantee I'm more involved in the democratic party than you are. Just because you cant get your mind around my argument, doesn't mean that I changed anything. Lack of comprehension is not my fault.

[Name removed]

170. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muryan]

189. I dont agree with a single part of Bush policy

whether it be foreign or domestic. The only the I posted in #152 was a link to a website. So I don't know how thats a shift or anything close to it. The point of the matter is I backed up what I said. Rumsfeld is responsible for a lot of things, but the build up of nukes in NK is not one of them. I am not one to blame someone for everything bad that has happened just because i dont like them. He has made a lot of other mistakes that can be pointed out. Attributing that to him just makes you look more fringe and out of touch with fact in your attempt to attack him.

[Mika]

210. You claimed that Albright sold NK nuke tech - still no link.

My only claim was that Rummy sold nuke tech to NK and not Cuba - nothing more.

Your response was that Albright did.

I provided links to show that Rummy was on the board of a company that did sell nuke tech to NK. That post was deleted by mods. I reposted links in post #208

You provided no links to back your assertion that Albright did.


--


It is interesting that you defend Rummy so vociferously.

[muryan]

224. Stating the truth

Is not a defense. There is not one atom in my body that thinks favorably of rummy, however I dont like seeing falsified information being accepted as fact.

[Judi Lynn]

172. I'm getting whip lash trying to follow all the shifts & misdirection!

It's happened so often in this thread. Must be a record.

[muryan]

190. I know its driving me insane

"supposed" democrats - "FIDEL IS SO AWESOME OMG I WANNA HAVE SEX WHEN HES BETTER I HOPE ITS SOON LOL"

democrats opposed to dictators - "we hope when he is gone they form a democracy"

this is really confusing no?

[Ken Burch]

213. We all know that nobody in Little Havana believes in democracy.

They just want their OWN dictator. They just want another Batista.

They don't care that, while Cubans on the island do want more democracy, they DON'T want the return of capitalism.

And while Democrats should support a democratic Cuba, it is immoral for us to insist on a capitalist Cuba, since a capitalist Cuba would have to be reactionary and ugly.

[muryan]

225. I have no problem

with them remaining a socialist economy. I just wish that they would live in a democracy

[Bretttido]

241. Dear god, you make no sense whatsoever

Instead of filling these forums with thoughtless dribble, take some time to read and think before you post. If, however, you insist on shooting between arguments, making broad accusations, refraining from fact checking, and coming to conclusions based on assumptions, perhaps this site will fit you better: www.freerepublic.com

[Mika]

208. Here are the links removed by mods

Here are the links I provided on Rummy on the board of a company that sold NK nuke technology..

http://www.guardian.co.uk/korea/article/0,2763,952289,00.html

http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=Rumsfeld+%2BABB&btnG=Google+Search

[rayofreason]

204. Since Fidel is just a figurehead...

...when he is gone there will be no major changes. A new figurehead will be chosen and the system, with the overwhelming support of the Cuban people, will proceed along it merry way.

On the other hand, if your tireless posting on every thread dealing with Cuba has a expressed a view divorced from reality, if your continued assertions that Fidel is not a Dictator who rules Cuba with an iron fist is really just a rear guard action hoping to mislead those who wish (or need) to be misled, and if your continued linking to documents like the Cuban constitution in support of claims of Cuban freedom of speech, assembly, and access to the internet is nothing more that a Kafkaesque comedy worthy of Ioneso, then the system, after a short time and under pressure from Cubans who want real change, will fall and be replaced with a more open, market-based system where the Commmunist Party and the ideology of Fidel does not rule.

It is useless to argue the point further. The reality of historical events will be the arbiter.

[Yupster]

318. That got a laugh

An honest to goodness LOL.

[Judi Lynn]

327. A person who has been to Cuba many times, spent a lot of time there,

worked there with Cubans, had a Cuba wife, has friends and loved ones there now, would NOT know anything about it, and you would. I see.

[IndianaGreen]

198. Batista Presidente

There was an old Cuban ditty dating back to Batista's first term as President in the 1940s:

Batista Presidente

Pedraza Coronel

Con todos los policias

Y el pueblo sin comer


Batista is President
Pedraza is Colonel
with all the policemen
and the people with nothing to eat

[RagingInMiami]

282. Batista has been dead for 33 years

And as far as I know, there is no Batista Jr. waiting in the wings.

[Akim]

305. Miami's Full of Wannabe Batista's and His Heir

How wrong you are! Miami is full of wannabe Batistas. Even 33 years after his death, his name is dear to the Miami mafiosi and their spawn. You will often see his hideous visage over the cash boxes in Miami restaurants, usually accompanied by some santeria offering for his return.

The heir apparent is Batista's grandson, who was appointed to the Florida Supreme Court by Jeb Bush.

[RagingInMiami]

308. I was born and raised in Miami

I grew up in a Cuban neighborhood. All my friends were Cuban. My baby sitters were Cuban. My first girlfriend was Cuban. And my second and third girlfriends were Cuban.

I grew up eating Cuban food, drinking Cuban coffee and working with Cubans.

And I have yet to see a picture of Batista with some santeria offering for his return.

In fact, even the most extreme right-wing Cubans who equate Castro to the devil, and are so ignorant that they think a vote for a democrat is a vote for a communist, will quickly tell you that Batista was a horrible president.

Many of the Cuban exiles in Miami actually contributed to Batista's downfall.

[Akim]

312. Batista Still Revered in Miami

Having a Cuban babysitter or a succession of Cuban girlfriends—hell, even having a Cuban wetnurse—doesn't make you an expert on exile politics. Batista is still the idol of Cuban exiles. His regime, which was very good to the upper classes, is still fondly remembered by most Cuban exiles, who would gladly trade Fidel in a moment for Batista. And, yes, there are altars to Batista all over Miami. You probably haven't recognized them because you don't know what Batista looks like.

[RagingInMiami]

316. You don't know what the fuck you're talking about

For one thing, the Miami Cubans are not all the "upper class" like you would like to believe. Most, in fact, are very working class even though they tend to vote republican.

The elite Cubans who were pro-Batista are an extreme minority and include the likes of the Bacardi family, the Diaz-Balart family (who was actually connected to Castro by marriage for a few years) and the family of Jorge Mas Canosa, the founder of the ultra right-wing Cuban American National Foundation.

It is these right-wingers who have been able to manipulate the majority of Cuban exiles into believing that anything short of right-wing politics is communism. Not much different from the way the right-wing politicians and blowhards in this country are able to persuade millions of working and middle-class Americans into voting against their interests.

So the majority of the Cuban exiles are politically ignorant. But they're not pro-Batista. They know that if it wasn't for Batista being so corrupt, Castro would never have succeeded.

BTW, I have studied Cuban politics since I was a child, having been fascinated with it from an early age. I know very well how Batista looks like. And if you know of one altar to Batista in Miami, please give me an address so I can go photograph it.

[Name removed]

319. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Judi Lynn]

309. The most vicious Cuban "exile" terrorists were involved in the Batista

government. These people worked in our own CIA, of course, and travelled all over the world wreaking havoc and murdering.

They managed to even work for the Republican President Richard Nixon in Watergate, and one of them, a bomber/mass murderer, Orlando Bosch was given a pardon by _{George H. W. Bush} when over 30 other countries refused to give him entry. _Bush overruled a finding for deportation by Acting Associate Attorney General, Joe D. Whitley:

http://cuban-exile.com/doc_051-075/doc0054.html
For 30 years Bosch has been resolute and unwavering in his advocacy of terrorist violence. He has threatened and undertaken violent terrorist acts against numerous targets, including nations friendly toward the United States and their highest officials. He has repeatedly expressed and demonstrated a willingness to cause indiscriminate injury and death. His actions have been those of a terrorist, unfettered by laws or human decency, threatening and inflicting violence without regard to the identity of his victims.

The United States cannot tolerate the inherent inhumanity of terrorism as a way of settling disputes. Appeasement of those who would use force will only breed more terrorists. We must look on terrorism as a universal evil, even if it is directed toward those with whom we have no political sympathy. As United States District Court has eloquently states with respect to this very case, "the evils of terrorism do not become less because of the participants and the cause." Orlando Bosch Avila v. Perry Rivkind, 88-973-C.V.-HOEVELER (S.D. Fla. June 1, 1988) (Order On Petition For Writ of Habeas Corpus). See also Matter of Rivero-Diaz, 12 I & N Dec. 475 (BIA, 1967).

As a result of this review, the conclusion is inescapable that it would be prejudicial to the public interest for the United States to provide a safe haven for Bosch. I have moreover concluded that he is an alien excludable from the United States under 8 U.S.C.- 1182 (a) (27), (28) (ii), (28) (iii), (28) (iv) and (29), and that his applications for asylum and withholding of
-------------------------
page 3

deportation should be and herein are denied. In addition, pursuant to 8 U.S.C. 1225 (c), and after consultation with appropriate security agencies of the United States, I conclude that disclosure of the confidential information upon which this decision is based would be prejudicial to the public interest, safety, or security.

[Yupster]

320. This arguing against Batista

reminds me of Animal Farm.

We must do the latest demand or the humans will come back. Good lord after 47 years, isn't it time to stop comparing yourself to the last guy?

[Yupster]

317. After 47 years

isn't it time to stop comparing to Batista?

Isn't there any other choice between one dictator and another?

I get tired of Republicans comparing to Jimmy Carter and that was only 26 years ago, not 47.

[mia]

64. Live from my front porch near "Calle Ocho" in Miami.

The Cubans are driving around and around the block, honking their horns.

[Mika]

76. Its how the "exiles" bravely fight Castro at every event. n/t

I'm not too far from you, in Miami.

[mia]

160. You've got a point there, but a lot goes on in the backrooms of

good restaurants.

I just came back from a walk to tonight's wild side. I joined the crowd heading toward Versailles Restaurant. Folks were beating their pots and pans with spoons. Nice rhythms. Great coffee. Lots of men enjoying cigars. Two different people said that they think Fidel is already dead and that things will be the same, or worse, with Raul.

The Miami police have been busy today with Bush in town to meet with "his supporters". I seriously wondered if his Miami meetings had anything to do with the timing of Fidel's announcement. Perhaps with Raul in charge, this administration could use that as an excuse for lifting the embargo to get in on the oil action just offshore. Perhaps some "exiles" might bravely take that on.


It's nice to know that another DUer is close by! :hi:

[Mika]

167. Fidel is dead again?

Miamicuban "exiles" claiming that Castro is dead.
I'm shocked.. shocked I tell ya.. to hear that. :wow:

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

173. Gee, it seems only last year he had terminal cancer, too. Hmmm.

I think that's one reason he may make well publicized speeches: to let them know in Miami that he's still just fine! Don't want them all showing up there to take charge again all at once! (I think the Cuban people would have something to say about that, too. They surely spoke up at the Bay of Pigs.)

[Mika]

174. Mr Castro makes well publicized speeches because..

.. unlike our babbling nitwit pretzeldent - _{W Bush} - he (Castro) actually has something intelligent to say.

Been there. Seen it. Heard him.

--

I'm off to bed now. Enough exitement for one night.

:hi:

[Judi Lynn]

177. Oh, yeah! I forgot! Gee, you can get used to completely ignoring

what a head of state is saying, don't you?

I've seen some of his speeches transcribed, and I have listened to his speech he gave at the Riverside Church in Harlem several years ago.

Yes, you're right: he's very, VERY intelligent.

Yep. That town must be supercharged, for sure, tonight, Mika.

[AlphaCentauri]

217. many in calle ocho are biting their nails

they are risking to lose 80 millions a year, many preferential deals and many welfare checks.

:cry:

[Mika]

219. BINGO! No Castro = no anti Castro funding (our tax dollars)

Castro is the best thing for crony capitalism, US taxpayer funded anti Castro foundation teat sucking, and campaign contributions in Florida.

[AlphaCentauri]

222. yep!, they are trying to re-invent them selfs

some day Castro will pass on so this so call "leader" need to work out new ways to keep their benefits.

[nashville_brook]

78. and that's different from last night.... ?

[pitohui]

66. i just came to ask if he had passed away

what appears to be his obituary was posted very briefly at nola.com -- went to link and it's gone

now it says he is in recovery from surgery

mia's post from miami makes me wonder if they're hearing similar rumors there

[tuvor]

71. Castro relinquishes power before surgery

HAVANA -
Fidel Castro temporarily relinquished his presidential powers to his brother Raul on Monday night and told Cubans he underwent surgery.

The Cuban leader said he had suffered gastrointestinal bleeding, apparently due to stress from recent public appearances in Argentina and Cuba, according to the letter read live on television by his secretary, Carlos Valenciaga.

"The operation obligates me to undertake several weeks of rest," the letter read, adding that extreme stress "had provoked in me a sharp intestinal crisis with sustained bleeding that obligated me to undergo a complicated surgical procedure."

Castro said he was temporarily relinquishing the presidency to his younger brother and successor Raul, the defense minister, but said the move was of "a provisional character." There was no immediate appearance or statement by Raul Castro.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060801/ap_on_re_la_am_ca/cuba_castro

[w4rma]

72. Castro needs to turn Cuba into a democracy before he dies.

Not a kingdom with a line of succession, as he appears to be doing.

And that requires that he gives the people of Cuba more freedoms to speak and organize.

"But former liberties were whittled away as labor unions lost the right to strike, independent newspapers were shut down and religious institutions were harassed."

[eallen]

112. Leopards don't change their spots.

I don't know why anyone who supports Fidel is doing in the Democratic Party. Every Democratic president from JFK on, every major Democratic politician, has opposed Fidel. Liberalism and communism are every bit as much at odds as liberalism and wingnut fundamentalism. Fidel himself recognized that much.

Seems to me there are some here who would be far more comfortable in the Socialist Workers Party.

[CanuckAmok]

151. In all fairness....

The Cuba that JFK opposed was a Soviet-backed Cuba. It certainly made sense in 1963 to oppose and interfere with the installation of Soviet (Russian) nuclear missiles a few hundred miles off the US Coast.

As I understand things, the Soviet Union no longer exists. And the Cuba I visited a few years ago certainly appeared more Lennon than Lenin.

Can you imagine what Cuba would be like if "free" Americans were "allowed" to vacation there? Cuba's collective wealth would rival Monaco's or Brunai's, and the present system of government woud ensure that a large chunk of that wealth be invested in the social safety-net.

Sounds to me that this would align pretty well with Democratic principles.

But what do I know? I'm just a schmuck from Canuckistan.

[Judi Lynn]

169. Really envy you your experience. As you know, we're completely

prohibited. I've read that U.S. FBI guys even have been stalking Canadian airports for years, studying all the passenger lists to find out which passengers are the Americans who have been to Cuba! I've read airport personel are damned sick of it, too.

Very glad to hear your comments. Speaking of Lennon, I've heard of the Lennon statue in a park in Havana. Quite interesting!

[RagingInMiami]

325. Let's not forget the Parque Lenin in Havana

[mike923]

207. Can you imagine if the Cubans were allowed to vacation here?

[Ken Burch]

212. Cuba has a lot of problems, eallen...

But it goes without saying that the white-skinned, tight-assed Miami Gusanos would do nothing but make those problems worse.

No place in history ever benefited from increased inequality and the end of free medical care. No one but the wealthy minority benefit from free education being taken away. Those and the theft of the wealth of Cuba are what the Miami people want. They have no humane, positive, progressive values. Capitalists never do.

[eallen]

223. Show me the nation without capitalist economy that wasn't dirt poor.

There are many nations that have universal healthcare. Most of them, such as Sweden and Canada, accomplish that by taxing a healthy capitalist economy. Lo! There! Capitalism is compatible with universal health care. I can point to any number of modern nations that demonstrate that. Norway. Germany. Denmark. Japan.

Can you show me that eliminating capitalism guarantees anything other than poverty? Worse, there is a dreadful tendency of socialist states to curtail civil liberty.

[Ken Burch]

228. Well, the Scandinavian model wouldn't be bad.

But you and I both know that the gusanos and their puppets in the Bush family won't allow anything like that.

[eallen]

239. The Scandinavian model relies on a having a capitalist economy....

I suspect some of the political dialogue in the US would change, substantially and for the better, if those who want us to move toward that would say, "Yes, of course, a thriving capitalist economy is essential to our goals. We're very much for capitalism. We're also for using that capitalist economy to fund a variety of social programs, including single-payer health care, kindergarten, etc."

The problem is that a rhetoric that is anti-capitalist makes its speakers sound as if they want to eliminate the capitalist economy, not just reform US social policy. The former will be opposed not just by various groups on the right, but also by liberals.

[Ken Burch]

248. But, as I just pointed out, the Miami "Cubans" won't tolerate any social

services beyond a rudimentary level. They want to reduce the place to Chile under Pinochet.

Those people, if they ever got power, would set up their own police state, but in the name of "market values". And nobody in the GOP-DLC would ever question anything that that "democratic" Cuban state ever did.

Remember, the Miami gusanos are the people whose arrogance and greed CAUSED the revolution.

[RagingInMiami]

284. You live in Alaska

What do you know about the "Miami Gusanos"? Do you even know what Gusanos means?

[Yupster]

321. Their money sure is welcome though

Cuba needs those dollars the Miami Cubans send each month desperately.

It's the way they've replaced the billions the USSR sent.

[7P Dude]

150. That's one thing everyone can agree on.

Did he hand pick his brother in some royal line or was there a fake election for him?

[Yupster]

322. He was declared Vice President

in 1970 when the position was created for him.

Then the Cuban Constitution was amended to make the VP next in line of secession after the "Chief."

[TomInTib]

73. This is S.O.P. All heads of state do it. nt

[LA lady]

74. JEB?????

Just Joking!!!!

[hang a left]

134. Intestinal bleeding is a symptom of cancer.

[muryan]

154. Also from ingesting poison n/t

[mom cat]

103. My best wishes to Fidel. I sure know that if I had a hurricane headed

my way, I would rather Fidel be the leader than Bush.

[Judi Lynn]

109. Oh, my god! What a thought! True enough

I read in the last year they even have it down pat so they know how to safely bring their farm animals and pets, etc. to higher ground in time to keep them from being drowned.

They have an amazing record just because they've thought it all out, and have even had practise drills.

[muryan]

116. WOW

Cuba is SUCH an amazing place, i bet the minimum wage is like $40 an hour and you get free candy every tuesday. Right? Right?

[Name removed]

132. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[muryan]

144. I'm good

I just like when people overexerted when talking about castro or chavez, like they are actually something to be happy about. Both of them are a plague to world politics, much like the president of iran, lil kim, and hardliner islamic governments.

[Ken Burch]

260. Would it be accurate to say

That there is nobody on the world scene that you actually APPROVE of?

[mom cat]

139. They have survived the landfall of cat 5's with no loss of life, but in

commie pinko countries, people are still considered important.

[muryan]

145. I wouldnt die if my house

made of straw fell on me either.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

216. Google on "straw houses" (with quotes)

First hit: Australia.
Second hit: United States.
Third hit: China.
Fourth hit: South Africa.

And the fifth hit is really interesting: http://www.suite101.com/article.cfm/farming/93013

By the way, there are straw houses in Brazil too. Must be all those decades of Commie rule we had -- NOT!

[mom cat]

226. All the residents are evacuated out of harms way. so are their

livestock and pets. The Cubans have a system that truly values human life and has pokicies in place to protect the living. Although they ars much poorer than the US and far more vulnerable to hurricanes than the US, they have no fatalities even in hurricanes that strike the country with cat 5 intensity. They would never have the kind of disaster like Katrina .... because they care enough to make plans that can avert disasters.

[Bretttido]

243. Yeah, all houses in Cuba are made of straw...

you fucking brainless moran. GO AWAY!

[IndianaGreen]

254. Your ignorance about hurricanes is astonishing!

Most people are killed by flooding caused by heavy rains than they are by storm surge and wind of hurricanes. Americans saw that happen during Katrina, and the people of Central America saw that during Mitch.

The only straw "houses" I saw in Cuba were in Pinar del Rio. These are the tobacco houses made of wood with roofs made of palm tree leaves. No one lives in them! They are used to store the harvested tobacco leaves and to allow them to cure.

You should travel to Cuba, and stop by the tobacco growing parts of Pinar del Rio. The red soil will remind you of Georgia.

[RangerSmith]

203. part of thier "amazing record"

has a hell of a lot to do with the fact that there is very little infrastructure outside of a couple of cities to lose to high winds.

It's either built to withstand the storms or it's built knowing it won't survive. Most follow the latter philosophy.

[Mika]

215. Here's an OXFAM link, regarding Cuba's amazing record at disaster prep

As with Cuba's excellent health care and education stats, below report is not exactly the hallmark of a brutal dictatorship..


DISASTER PLANNING ESSENTIAL FOR MINIMIZING RISKS
http://www.oxfamamerica.org/whatwedo/emergencies/asian_floods_2004/background/cubalessons

Oxfam America recently studied the experience of Cuba in its development of disaster prevention and mitigation programs. Situated in the Caribbean Sea, Cuba frequently stands in the way of serious hurricanes. While its neighbors are battered, losing lives and property, Cuba is unusually good at withstanding these calamities, and suffers much fewer dead.
Oxfam’s report, entitled Weathering the Storm: Lessons in Risk Reduction in Cuba cites a number of attributes of Cuba’s risk reduction program that can be applied by other countries. Three in particular are transferable to Asia and other regions:

* Disaster Preparedness: Cuba was especially good at mobilizing entire communities to develop their own disaster preparations. This involves mapping out vulnerable areas of the community, creating emergency plans, and actually simulating emergencies so people can practice evacuations and other measures designed to save lives. When disaster strikes, people know what to do.

* Commitment of Resources: Cuba’s strong central government prioritizes resources for its civil defense department. This helps the country to build up a common understanding of the importance of saving lives, and the citizens trust that their contributions to the government are well used for this purpose. Their collaboration on developing emergency plans helped build confidence in the government, so people trust in the plan they helped develop.

* Communications: The communications system for emergencies in Cuba builds on local resources. Using local radio stations and other media to issue warnings on potential hazards also reinforces the disaster preparations. Since the local population is already involved in mapping risks and creating emergency plans, they are more inclined to act on emergency bulletins. Good communications, packaged simply, and built on existing, commonly used resources, is another way to build trust in disaster preparations.


Cuba is a unique example. There is a strong central government committed to protecting all its citizens, even the poorest and most isolated who are typically the most at risk

Some posters here seem to think that all of this is worth nothing simply because Mr Fidel Castro is Cuba's Head of State.

Cubans in Cuba think otherwise.


Just as with Cuba's disaster preparedness program, no one can say with any credibility that universal education and universal health care needs to be forced on any population. Castro didn't give it to them either. Together, nearly all Cubans worked hard to create the infrastructure and systems that they felt were essential for any progressive system.

The Cuban people wanted universal health care for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, and organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a fair and complete h-c system.

The people of Cuba wanted universal education for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class ed system, and they have it.

The people of Cuba wanted a disaster preparedness program for all Cubans, and they have it. They pushed for government that represented their ideals, organized and formed infrastructure that enabled Cubans to create a complete and world class disaster preparedness program, and they have it.

Cubans want to assist the world's poor with doctors and educators and disaster assistance, instead of gun ship diplomacy.. and that is what they have done WITH their government, not at odds with their government.

Can Americans make this claim about their own country? I'm afraid not.

[RangerSmith]

247. I've been there several times

I do believe you are in love with a communist fantasy.

[Mika]

256. Ha. So you are saying that Cubans don't have these things?

You are saying that it is my fantasy that Cuba has a universal health care system?

You are saying that it is my fantasy that Cuba has a universal education system?

You are saying that it is my fantasy that Cuba has an effective disaster response system?


If you are, then I wonder what Cuba you claim to have visited. Just doing some basic internet research will prove out what I have claimed, but, more than that, I have spent quite a lot of time in Cuba and have seen all of these systems function quite well. Cuba's stats in all above areas prove that out.
___________


Could it be that you are saying that these things have to forced on a resistant populace that doesn't want these things?

If so, that's laughable. :rofl:

[High Plains]

158. The moonbats are howling tonight. n/t

[Bridget Burke]

205. Here in Texas, school will start soon....

Some of the kiddies obviously have too much free time right now.

[lonestarnot]

165. Wonder while the cat is away, how the mice will play?

[AlphaCentauri]

178. What about the day after?

This would be like coming back to reality, some body is going to loose all those millions for TV and Radio broadcasting and all that aid.

[Judi Lynn]

191. ABC News: Castro steps down temporarily

astro steps down temporarily

Aug 1, 2006 — By Anthony Boadle

HAVANA (Reuters) - Cuban President Fidel Castro, the world's third longest serving head of state, stepped down temporarily on Monday after intestinal surgery, handing over power for the first time to his brother Raul Castro, state television announced.

The news sparked street dancing in the Cuban exile district of Miami where Castro's foes, backed by the United States, yearn for the demise of the West's only Communist government and celebrated the clearest sign yet of his failing health.

In Cuba, where Castro has ruled since his guerrillas swept down from the Sierra Maestra hills to overthrow a dictator in 1959, word he had been operated on for intestinal bleeding brought uncertainty over the political future of the island nation of 11 million.

Castro, who will be 80 on August 13, said in a statement read out on television that he overexerted himself this month on a trip to a summit of South American leaders in Argentina and celebrations of his 1953 assault on a military garrison.
(snip/...)

http://abcnews.go.com/US/wireStory?id=2259593

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

By ANITA SNOW

HAVANA Aug 1, 2006 (AP)— Fidel Castro, who took control of Cuba in 1959, rebuffed repeated U.S. attempts to oust him and survived communism's demise almost everywhere else, temporarily relinquished his presidential powers to his brother Raul on Monday night because of surgery.

Castro, less than two weeks away from his 80th birthday, did not appear on the live television broadcast in which his secretary read a letter from the Cuban leader. It was the first time in 47 years of absolute rule that Castro has given up power.

In the note read by secretary Carlos Valenciaga, Castro said he underwent surgery after suffering gastrointestinal bleeding, apparently due to stress from recent public appearances in Argentina and eastern Cuba. It was not immediately clear when the surgery took place.

"The operation obligates me to undertake several weeks of rest," the letter read. Extreme stress "had provoked in me a sharp intestinal crisis with sustained bleeding that obligated me to undergo a complicated surgical procedure."
(snip/...)

http://abcnews.go.com/International/wireStory?id=2259632

[kick_them_hard]

196. May Castro ROT IN HELL!!! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

197. There is no Heaven and no Hell and... Fidel is still alive

but thank you for your opinion.

BTW, speaking of proportionality, hasn't Bush outdone all of crimes that Fidel has been accused of committing? How many civilians has Bush killed in Iraq? According to Lancet Report, about 100,000, according to other sources, it could be as high as 250,000 civilians.

[BrentWill4U]

242. Is there a power hungry

Dictator that you won't defend?

[IndianaGreen]

244. Bush

and Cheney, and their Dominionist supporters.

[BrentWill4U]

252. Well, at least you admit to..

defending the remaining power hungry animals out there. GOOD JOB.

[IndianaGreen]

253. I am sure that those in the US military will murder Cuban workers

as American troops have done in Cuba in the aftermath of bringing "freedom and democracy." Cuban history is replete with examples of American cruelty and brutality that predates Fidel's Revolution!

But when the smoke was over, the dead buried, and the cost of the war came back to the people in an increase in the price of commodities and rent--that is, when we sobered up from our patriotic spree--it suddenly dawned on us that the cause of the Spanish-American war was the consideration of the price of sugar; or, to be more explicit, that the lives, blood, and money of the American people were used to protect the interests of American capitalists, which were threatened by the Spanish government. That this is not an exaggeration, but is based on absolute facts and figures, is best proven by the attitude of the American government to Cuban labor. When Cuba was firmly in the clutches of the United States, the very soldiers sent to liberate Cuba were ordered to shoot Cuban workingmen during the great cigarmakers' strike, which took place shortly after the war.

http://sunsite.berkeley.edu/Goldman/Writings/Anarchism/patriotism.html

[BrentWill4U]

258. Okay.. agreed..

And also irrelevant as it still doesn't excuse Fidel and his dictatorial reign of terror upon the Cuban people. Your argument that points to American abuses doesn't address the fact that there have been Cuban abuses.

[kurth]

209. Well, no more 5-hour speeches from him

[Akim]

304. Don't Hold Your Breath

Don't hold your breath.

[Canuckistanian]

214. On a more practical note

If Castro really is dying, this could be a disaster for Cuba - in terms of timing.

That Castro dies during the ascendency of the Bushco neocon military fantasy adventure does not bode well for the Cuban people.

I see ZERO chance of any intelligent reaction to this event. I'm sure thay have an invasion planned that would make the Bay of Pigs looks like a pleasant cruise to the beach.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

218. Don't think so. They'd lose every country south of the Rio Grande FOREVER.

Would be a hell of a strategic blunder. They wouldn't be so foolish.

Oh, wait...

[Throd]

227. The invasion will not be military...

...but will be thousands of drunken spring-breakers reveling to MTV's "Havana Cabana Fiesta-In-Your-Face".

Now hold that can of Coors Light over your head and shout "WOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOOO!"

Poor Cubans.

[Canuckistanian]

229. You're right

That would be worse.

[Spinoza]

232. So King Fidel

has handed over power to his brother, the Prince? Well,if His Majesty, (May God Preserve Him) after 47 years of blessed rule, were to depart this realm at least the Cuban people can be sure that the Monarchy will continue. LONG LIVE THE KING!

[Ken Burch]

233. Martin Luther King would NEVER support the Miami Cubans...

Especially since half of them came to Miami so that Fidel wouldn't make their kids go to school with Afro-Cubanos.

Little Havana was whiter than Palm Beach until about ten years ago.

[goclark]

272. Thanks for that bit of information

that broadens my understanding of the issues involved.

[Judi Lynn]

278. Extremely racist group.

I read an article about a young black man who went from Cuba to Miami and thought he'd get back in touch with a neighbor he used to have as a friend who was around his age.

When he got to Miami he discovered that the neighbor was entrenched in a very racist world, and he only felt comfortable living far away in town in his "own" neighborhood, far away from his Spanish friend.

In pre-revolutionary Cuba, black people were not allowed to walk in the same parks. They were expected to be stay invisible, and removed socially. There's some expression which I've heard was used then, which I don't exactly understand as it had its loaded meaning in that context: "solo va niche." "Niche" is a slur for black people, I believe. I heard it in 2000, from a Canadian poster who travels to Cuba a lot, at the old CNN Cuba-US relations board, which is defunct now.

Maybe some one who knows Cuban history can explain it.

[Name removed]

289. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[goclark]

310. For some reason I suspected it but never had any examples nt

Haved they stopped dancing in the streets yet?

Stomach problems with Castro ~ huuum.

[smb]

237. Hmmmm...

...could be interesting if the implosion of the dictatorship is as fast as the chain reaction in the Soviet Empire....

[Gully Foyle]

238. Gubment

Must have hired some paid poster temps today.
The psyops people are really gearing up for castro's death and maybe a new invasion.
Of course Hugo may have something to say about that.

[Endangered Specie]

286. what exactly do you mean by this?

curious.

[sueragingroz]

245. How about the influence of Canada?

No one has mentioned that yet:

Relations with Canada

See also : Canada-Caribbean relations

Canada has maintained consistently cordial relations with Cuba, in spite of considerable pressure from the United States, and the island is also one of the most popular travel destinations for Canadian citizens. Canada-Cuba relations can be traced back to the 18th century, when vessels from the Atlantic provinces of Canada traded codfish and beer for rum and sugar. Cuba was the first country in the Caribbean selected by Canada for a diplomatic mission. Official diplomatic relations were established in 1945, when Emile Vaillancourt, a noted writer and historian, was designated Canada's representative in Cuba. Canada and Mexico were the only two countries in the hemisphere to maintain uninterrupted diplomatic relations with Cuba following the Cuban Revolution in 1959.

In 1994, a joint venture was formed between the Cuban Nickel Union and the Canadian firm Sherritt International, which operates a mining and processing plant in Moa Cuba. A second enterprise, Cobalt Refinery Co. Inc., was created in Alberta for nickel refining. Canada has been critical of the U.S. trade embargo against Cuba, and strongly objected to the Helms-Burton Act. In 1996 Foreign Affairs Minister Lloyd Axworthy stated; "Canada shares the U.S. objectives of improving human rights standards and moving to more representative government in Cuba. But we are concerned that the Helms-Burton Act takes the wrong approach. That is why we have been working with other countries to uphold the principles of international law". In 1996 a Private Member's Bill was introduced, but not made law, in the Canadian parliament; this law called the Godfrey-Milliken Bill was in response to the extra-territoriality of the aforementioned Act. Canada also protests U.S. preclearance customs agents in Canadian airports who try to catch American citizens travelling to Cuba in defiance of U.S. law.

Former Prime Minister Pierre Trudeau and Fidel Castro were personal friends. Castro was among Pierre Trudeau's pallbearers at his funeral in 2000.

FROM wiki http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foreign_relations_of_Cuba#Relations_with_Canada

[eridani]

250. I heard that one Canadian reaction to Helms-Burton was--

--proposing a law embargoing American businesses unless the US made reparations to Tories who had their property expropriated after the American revolution.

[Ken Burch]

257. That influence may be about to change

since the current Canadian government is a right-wing Conservative administration(which, fortunately, does not have a parliamentary majority as of now)that is committed to being a lapdog of the Bushes.

If they get a majority next time, watch out. You may see the Maple Leaf being carried up the Cuban beaches by an all-North American invasion force.

[Endangered Specie]

283. if the saying "the good die young" is true...

he will be around alot longer :(

Hope the fucker dies though.

[Akim]

291. Fidel Like Mother Theresa

This is exactly what we can expect from someone whose hero was the informant and blacklister George Orwell. Shame on you! If good works and a noble life merited it, Fidel would live 1000 years. No man in our living memory has done more to advance the cause of humanity. Mother Theresa virtually called Fidel a saint and blessed him for his life of service to the poor. Indeed, many parallels could be drawn between the two; their simple dress; their disdain for ostentation and luxury; their love of children and outcastes; their having fed the hungry, clothed the poor and tended to their wounds; but, above all,in their boundless love are Fidel and Mother Theresa alike.

[Endangered Specie]

294. Bwhahahaha

you don't seriously believe that,

hell if that were true Id expect tens of thousands of people to be floating on rafts and makeshift boats trying to get into Cuba...


oh wait, those went the OTHER way!

[Akim]

295. Jon Paul II Also Admired Fidel

Of course I believe it, and so, more importantly, did Mother Theresa, who on her visits to Cuba always praised Fidel humanity and said that he was "a Christian through good works." Fidel may also have been the one communist leader that the late Pope John Paul II actually admired. During his trip to Cuba the Pope never once criticized Castro personally or his government; but, rather, praised the achievements of the Revolution as well as the Christ-like martyr Che Guevara.

Read my other other posts and all your other questions will be answered.

[brentspeak]

298. "Christ-like martyr Che Guevera"???????

Exactly how many people did Jesus murder?

(You're from Upper Saddle River? The fifth or sixth wealthiest town in the U.S. is a strange place for a fan of communists to originate from).

[Akim]

299. Revolutionary Justice Is Not Murder

Many people have been murdered in Jesus' name, alas.

Revolutionary justice is not to be confused with murder.

Fidel's social gospel is essentially Christian.

Labels do not apply to Fidel.

He is the Universal Man.

[robcon]

300. Another apologist for Castro weighs in...

"Revolutionary justice is not to be confused with murder."

It's not murder if it's done in the government's name??? Murdering opposition figures is some kind of justice????

Most people, IMO, would argue that killing political opponents within your country is, indeed, cold-blooded murder, Akim.

[Akim]

302. Justice Also Comes At The Point of a Gun

The killing of one's enemies in time of war has always been regarded as licit.

[Bridget Burke]

306. Clue: You aren't fooling anybody. n/t

[Akim]

311. "Che" Was Irish, Too

I don't pretend to fool anybody. The Irish, incidentally, have always been great admirers of Fidel, perhaps because of their pride in a local boy named Ernesto ("Che") Guevara Lynch.

[Judi Lynn]

324. You're right. Paternal grandmother was a Lynch, whose father

settled in Argentina from Galway.

[maddezmom]

328. locking

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