Andrea Yates retrial verdict:: Not Guilty by Reason of Insanity

[WestHoustonDem]

http://www.khou.com/

[DainBramaged]

1. Not guilty by reason of Fundie insanity and husband interference

[crim son]

2. Yeah, it's heartwarming to think

about how that asshole has remarried. He is certainly partially responsible for what Andrea went through, and ultimately, for what she did to her little ones.

[L A Woman]

15. he is guilty of neglect, but he doesn't seem like an asshole....

in every interview i have seen, he has supported her wholeheartedly and seems to really regret not getting her treatment.

???

[Lisa0825]

18. Neglect is an understatement.

I think it is more like psychological abuse. I wish HE could stand trial for the deaths.

[Wise Doubter]

81. And if he told her to jump and she did?

would he be guilty then too? I don`t think so.

SHE knew what SHE was doing !..... All FIVE times.

[coalition_unwilling]

94. You are obviously unaware of the varying degrees

of delusion that people can experience. As someone who has had several family members hospitalized for schizophrenia and\or bipolar disorder, I can tell you that people who suffer from these diseases often think that what they are "hearing" or "seeing" is just as real as what a well-adjusted person "hears" or "sees".

I would recommend that you educate yourself by visitng the website of the National Institute of Mental Health (NIMH.org), before you spout off on a topic about which you obviously know so little.

[Richard Steele]

102. I'll second your opinion.

And thank you for stating it so much more POLITELY
than I would have been able to do.

[durrrty libby]

148. There is so much blatant stupidity in this thread.

I foolishly thought dems were educated people,
or that they would get educated before speaking on a subject.

:argh: :freak: :dunce:

[Richard Steele]

150. You foolishly ASSUMED that people THINK; and now you know better.

You are standing at the edge of a VERY deep rabbit hole, my friend;
I heartily recommend that you back away and refocus your
attentions towards local Democratic campaign issues.

[durrrty libby]

151. The lack of mental health medical care should be

a big Democratic issue.

As to the idiocy posted here....well that just

makes me angry about the lack of education.

[LostinVA]

160. I heartily agree n/t

[Marie26]

197. Agreed

On mental health issues, most people are pretty ignorant.

[Lisa0825]

110. The woman was seriously unstable, and he knew it.

If he stood next to a mentally ill woman and told her to jump, then yes, I would say he was guilty of some degree of murder.

How do you know she knew what she was doing? Do you have a psychic connection to her? :eyes:

[LostinVA]

124. It's very sad you don't understand about mental illness

It's very sad that many Americans don't. They confuse it with a personality disorder, like a sociopath. Psychosis is an ILLNESS, where one is legally and morally insane -- you are not in the real world, you are in a true alternate reality.

This is a horrible illness to hit a loved one. I sincerely hope no one in your family ever becomes ill with this, and if they do, that they are given treatment and more compassion and understanding than you and other posters have given Andrea Yates.

[crim son]

22. I have seen him interviewed as well.

Sometimes I make the mistake of equating stupidity with assholishness. This was not Yates' first episode of post-partum depression. She had struggled in the past with serious mental issues. I believe very strongly that her husband should have either monitored her relentlessly for problems post-partum, or else had a vasectomy, regardless of what Andrea wanted. That's my thought.

[Breeze54]

108. I totally agree with you

and she was hospitalized just two months before she drowned her kids! Twice!
He knew she shouldn't have been left alone with those children and so did the MIL!

I'm glad they overturned the murder charge.
Maybe she can get some help now, in the hospital.

Yates' chief attorney, George Parnham, called the verdict this time
a "watershed event in the treatment of mental illness."

[Name removed]

111. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happyslug]

154. That "This women would have been Taken away..."

That is one of the funniest thing I have heard all day. Prior to her action was there any EVIDENCE that she was danger to herself to others? The answer appears to be NO, i.e. she had NO delusions that ANYWAY ELSE KNEW OF. She hide her delusions in Religions, but she could have done the same with any other belief system (even Atheism) as long as she appears NOT to have any delusions (Darwin told me to kill my Children so I can restart my life etc). Unless you start to say ANYONE who believes in ANYTHING that is NOT within the "Norm" must be Insane and MUST be locked up, you have to permit people who do NOT think like you to walk the streets. In fact if you look at History, every change to improve society came out of a small minority of people who believed that the change not only was possible but good. If society adopts a policy that anything out of the norm is insanity, then such groups and movements being outside the norm are also insane AND MUST BE LOCKED UP. We,a s aa society do define insanity as being outside the norm, we define insanity as being a harm to oneself or others and nothing more.

Thus the problem of Mental Illness is NOT that someone is thinking outside what is normal for society, but when someone acts in a way to harm themselves or others. While Religion gets a lot of the headlines when someone says they are insane, Religion is only one way a insane person's mental illness may manifest itself. If she was NOT religious she could have believed her children were evil animals out to get her (Or unless she kill her children, wild animals would kill them first). She might believe Doctors etc want her children for Medical Experiments and to spare them that horror she humanity killed them. The problem is NOT her religion but her delusions that arose out of her mental problem. In this case she used Religion as the rationale to justify her killing of her children when what drove her to kill her Children was her mental illness. IT is her mental illness that had to be addressed and was not.

In fact many people with mental problem find comfort and control in religion. It provides a set of beliefs that tells them what they are thinking is wrong. This was the rationale behind Catholic Confessions for example, the Catholic Priest could NOT use what was told him in the Confessionals, but he could ask the person who confessed to him to seek treatment (In fact there is a 1954 Papal Document ordering Priests to do that if someone confesses to them about child abuse case).

Now, her religion is Fundamentalist as opposed to main line Protestant and as such to be a minister in her religion does NOT require a four year course of instructions (which include watching for signs of mental illness). Thus main line Protestants, many Fundamentalist and even the Catholic Church Requires a four year course of Classes before one can become a Minster. We could fix this by saying the only religions permitted are those with such classes but then you run right into the First Amendment (Europe does NOT have a First Amendment and have long forbidden any religion from practicing that does NOT require its minsters from have some background to watch for Mental Illness, but for such a requirement to be made in the US would violate the First Amendment, it is one of the downside to separation of Church and State).

As to religion itself, don't let your personal belief that someone is delusional if he or she is Religious to say that such a person is only a matter of degree deferent from someone with a mental condition. You may believe the difference it is only a matter of degree, but the problem is NOT someone's religious beliefs per se, but the Degree between mental Illness that does NOT require Hospitalization and mental illness that requires Hospitalization. In our system of law, the mere fact you do NOT believe is what most people believe in does NOT make you Mentally ill (Remember the First Amendment). The problem is NOT one's religious beliefs but one's mental ability to make sure one is NOT doing harm to themselves or others.

Thus the problem is MENTAL ILLNESS and out society's ability to get help to such mentally ill people. Often you need to get their religious leaders to tell them to seek professional help for they will NOT listen to their families. Sometime you need to get they friends to tell them to get professional help. Unless one of these three groups get the person to seek treatment, it is rare for such a mentally ill person to seek help unless they have a run in with the law (i.e. is clearly a hazard to themselves or others). By the time the Police are involved the person has had a long history of mental illness (and often the police just prosecute the person for whatever criminal act that person did and unless the person's crime is severe he is fined and still gets no help).

The police are ill equipped to handled Mentally ill people, thus when the Police get involved they treat it as a crime and the person is often just fined and left go (Mentally ill people are a good source of funds for Police and Judges for they pay, get into more trouble, pay the fine, get into more trouble and no one ever sends them to a mental home unless it is clear they are a danger to themselves of Others).

My point here is religion is NOT the problem, it is HOW our Society treat mentally ill people (i.e. unless it is clear you are going to cause harm to yourself or others, the mentally ill are left alone). The same in this case, they was NO one to protect her for Society wanted that to be the job of her Husband and herself and he failed to see the signs of mental illness in her (He had to training or experience in mental illness to do so). She was incapable of seeking treatment herself and thus you had this tragic situation.

[Name removed]

162. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[happyslug]

169. But I have heard of Good Atheistic Communism, dieing for Communism

The old Soviet Union made a big deal out of them (Mostly from the early days of WWII). Suicide Bombers exist in any society that DEMAND SACRIFICES OF ITS FOLLOWERS for the greater good. When it comes to religious suicide bombers, their society is defined as their Religion, but Communism used the came concept of the need to sacrifice for the greater good to produce such sacrifices (As did the Capitalistic West when they demand our soldiers to perform duties that will lead to their own deaths).

DO NOT confuse Religion being used as an Excuse to commit suicide when the actual cause is the desperation of people. For example in the West Bank Suicide Bomber's families received a new home and other benefits (First paid for by Saddam and after the fall of Iraq by other Arab countries via Hamas and others). Thus most suicide bombers are NOT thinking in terms of what will happen in the after life but what will happen to their family if they are killed. As a general Rule such families ARE MUCH BETTER OFF given the massive support for such families. IF these Bombers had some OTHER WAY to improve the lot of their families they would take it (Thus Suicide Bombers came into being as the condition in the West Bank deteriorated since the 1980s). In fact the first modern Suicide bombers stated in Sri Lanka (Formerly Ceylon) by Tamil rebels who had NO BELIEF IN AN AFTER LIFE as that is understood in Western Culture (Hindu tend to believe in reincarnation instead). Again the situation among the Tamil minority in Sri Lanka was so terrible that regular suicide were up among the Tamil suicide bombers was NOT that much of a Jump. From Sri Lanka Suicide bombers spread to the middle east here similar economic situations exist.

My point is most suicide bombers, while covered in Religion, is driven by economic desperation more than religion dogma. If you end the long term economic problems of the West Bank and Gaza the Suicide bombers will disappear. The problem is to do so means giving RIGHTS to the Palestinian which Israel does NOT want to do. Like Northern Ireland and the Basque section of Spain, if you give them rights, it will take years, but as their economic situation improves, the support for terror attacks will decline. It took almost 10 years for the War in Northern Ireland and the Basque section of Spain to wind down to nothingness (And another 15 years before the Rebels would officially quit their Gorilla Campaign) but if you relieve the CAUSE for the war, the Gorilla will slowly lost support and die off or just quit the war. The same with the Suicide Bombers, if Israeli would free up the restrictions on the West Bank and Gaza, the terror attacks on Israel will slowly go down and within ten years be almost done (Trough Israel will have to take about 5 years of increase terrorist attack until the terrorist see the improved economic situation and opt to participate in the improving economy).

Thus the problem with Suicide bombers is NOT religion but economic desperation. If you end the later, suicide bombers as while as other bombers tend to end about 10-15 years later.

[surfermaw]

183. Couldn't have said it better

[tsuki]

114. Her doctor warned him. nt

[colorado_ufo]

175. Amen.

Five children in seven years, a history of mental illness requiring hospitalization, and from what I have read before, some degree (at least) of social isolation by the husband. What support system did this woman have? How could he have gotten her pregnant again and again, knowing her mental state? Didn't he know how to use a damn condom, if he couldn't restrain himself? How much help did he give her?

And what happened to, "for better or worse?" Admittedly, this was a case of "worst," but to dump this woman during this extremely desperate time - and marry another - is incomprehensible to me. He could have at least seen her through to the resolution of her case, whether it be mental hospital or life in prison, before making HIS life better.

For that matter, how could he have finished grieving for his children in so short a time, to contemplate a new family with another woman? I can't understand this.

[surfermaw]

181. Crim son, you are right on.....

[Iris]

46. yes, but now he's happily remarried. What part about "Until Death Do Us

Part" do the fundies NOT understand?

[MaineDem]

100. It's the sanctity of marriage they all talk about (n/t)

[cannabis_flower]

48. He tried to get her treatment...

The doctor at the psychiatric hospital discharged her because her insurance ran out. He should have known she was a danger to herself and those children. I blame the psychiatrist and the insurance company more than I blame her husband. This situation is similar to sending someone who's bleeding to death away from the emergency room because they don't have insurance. The hospital and doctor should be sued for malpractice.

[LostinVA]

54. He was told she shouldn't have any more kids

But Rusty wanted a "baseball team." To make it even better, he added stressors to her like (homeschooling, living on a bus, etc.). He was her spouse -- eh could have insisted on help. He didn't. He's morally culpable, and should also be legally culpable.

[colorado_ufo]

176. Agree with you 100%!

[durrrty libby]

132. You are correct

The doc holds a big piece of the responsibility.

[DainBramaged]

50. That's what his lawyer told him to say

[lumberjack_jeff]

53. Don't you have to be responsible for someone to be guilty of neglect?

Aren't wives grownups?

Is Kim Crespi guilty of neglect for allowing her husband to suffer from the depression that caused him to kill their kids?

http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15050012.htm

[femrap]

69. Was he home schooling them while living in a bus?

Did his wife fill him with viagra so they could have a baseball team?

Men do not give birth and therefore cannot suffer from post partum psychosis. I would hope you could try to understand from another point of view.

Did you want to see Ms. Yates is jail?

[lumberjack_jeff]

122. Not really

I don't disagree with the verdict. What I do disagree with is the viewpoint that she's not responsible for the murders she committed, but her husband is.

[femrap]

128. I think he's complicit....he knew damn well

she was mentally very fragile....the Dr. had told them NOT to have any more children...yet he had to have his baseball team. I can't imagine having a 7-, 5-, 3-, 2-year old, and 6-month child and having to home school them while I had post partum psychosis.

But all is well for him now....he divorced Andrea and is now remarried. And I'm sure he agrees with your assessment 100%.

Vasectomy? Condom? Selfish bastard.

[arewenotdemo]

155. totally agree

[tsuki]

113. I see him having two faces, one for the public. nt

[fudge stripe cookays]

178. The man is a monster.

Listen harder.

He knew that she was experiencing problems that any other sensible human being would have recognized as psychosis. But kept insisting that "we" wanted more children, and kept pushing her to have them. Then left her at home with all of them even though he knew she had become unstable.

This man should have been tried for murder. He was just as guilty as she was; of inane neglect.

The man is a fundie pusbag.

[ananda]

28. I keep wondering what kind of woman..

.. would marry someone like Rusty Yates.

And I wonder how he could get anyone to marry him.

This is a sick world.

Sue

[Warpy]

55. She's over 40

and with any luck at all, will not be bred the way poor Andrea was.

Everybody dropped the ball on this one. There are a lot of villains. The fundy preacher who was easily as crazy as she was is one of the main ones.

[femrap]

70. The fundies do one good job on brainwashing their

women...and our culture goes right along. Women are raised to be nice, not raise their voice and if they do, something is wrong with them....etc. etc. etc.

Many of them are denied a serious education and are groomed to be wives. Many will latch upon a man who can provide a roof over their heads and food. And this is what the Fundies want for ALL American women. These people are just as bad as the Taliban.

[Scairp]

63. I think that's a little harsh

He may have been somewhat blind to how sick she really was, but he did take her to a doctor, and the last doctor who took her off of all her meds cold turkey should be held responsible as well. You NEVER do that, ever. I am glad that justice has finally been served in this case and that she will get the treatment she deserves. I never thought it would happen in blood-thirsty Texas.

[Maraya1969]

52. There is a woman who is Andrea's pen pal who I think will write a book

and she explained that there was a lot of mis-information spread about Rusty Yates. She even said that in some doctor records Rusty was likened to a "pain" for his incessant pleading for them to put her back on the medications that initially made her well. He also wanted them to both work part time so he could spend more time with the kids and give her a break but a big part of her insanity was that she was a terrible/evil mother so she could never agree to that.

Also, she never told anyone what her delusions were about.

I can tell you from a personal perspective that one time I am certain I was IN a delusion. I was terrified to tell anyone. I also had a lot of times where I don't know whether I was in a delusion or just the victim of horrible thoughts that I could not get out of my head. I never told ANYONE what they were.

I don't know why. Sometimes I think I was so terrified that the act of speaking about my thoughts was worse than having them.

I gained a lot of sympathy for Rusty today from listening to this author, (sorry, will post her name if I can remember it) and to his aunt.

[LostinVA]

57. I don't believe any of what the "pen pal" says

All of this goes counter to the testimony of everyone -- including Rusty Yates himself.

[Maraya1969]

77. Did you hear her speak last night? I can't remember her name.

[LostinVA]

135. I know what the evidence said, and what her friends and family said

Andrea Yates was in a deep psychosis during that whole time period -- she truly doesn't know what was or wasn't going on then.

[DainBramaged]

164. So you believe that Rusty Yates really tried to make her well?

I have this bridge, hardly used.......

Why would Fundie propaganda which will protect the man especially in this case, have any bearing here?

[surfermaw]

184. There is no excuse for breeding a sick woman !

[Spazito]

3. Finally, a just verdict, imo

Her first trial was a travesty of justice and this brings some balance back, imo.

[WestHoustonDem]

9. I agree - she tried to get help for what she was going through

and got nothing but shit.

[Raine]

133. I agree

she needs help and now she will be able to get it.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

4. CNN:Cabel: Andrea Yates found not guilty by reason of insanity.

[Tellurian]

5. Good, the poor woman suffers from post partum depression and

should have been receiving treatment all along..
Her former husband OTOH, IS as guilty (as sin) of criminal neglect.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

7. Not to mention psychological abuse at the hands of the

fundamentalist church.

[Tellurian]

8. while incarserated, the inhumane treatment she received was disgraceful

coming from THOSE who would pre-judge her without knowing all the facts.

[etherealtruth]

38. Sorry, I know Ii'm being pedantic ...

Andrea Yates suffered from post partum PSYCHOSIS

[Bridget Burke]

44. And she had an existing history of other mental problems....

Plus suicide attempts.

[etherealtruth]

67. Sadly she is a "poster child" for severe mental illness

[LostinVA]

58. I almost wrote that, too!

Because there is a big difference between depression and psychosis.

[mopinko]

39. not post partum depression- psychosis. very, very different

please, let's not confuse the 2.

[Skittles]

6. I agree with this verdict

that poor wretched woman was driven to insanity

[BluePatriot]

10. I agree with this verdict...

but none of my dumbass co-workers will. When they get back from lunch this is all I will hear about all day...I should go find some earplugs...

I swear they don't even think mental illness exists....

[Maraya1969]

89. Just tell them they should be grateful they are not mentally ill.

It is a jail sentence all by itself.

[Mikimouse]

11. I support that verdict...sorry to...

disappoint the asshole 'legal consultant' on MSGOP who was almost orgasmic in her continual "how can anybody think she was insane at the time, as she waited for the prime opportunity...blah, blah, blah". I really hate that kind of crap.

[etherealtruth]

40. Shows an amazing ignorance r/t mental illness ...

... on the part of the talking head.

[Mikimouse]

42. I am not sure it is ignorance...

I think that people like her are Nancy Grace wannabes and think that they caan convince everyone of their legal competence when they have none. I agree with you, I am just far more cynical.:hippie: :hi:

[Freedom_from_Chains]

12. Take a look at what the fundies are saying about this

clearly, our country is on the verge of collapse from this. However, there were a couple of post who had the audacity to point out the obvious which is, she was insane, but I doubt they'll be around long.

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1672628/posts?page=44#44

[Ex Lion Tamer]

13. Unfortunately, it's almost irrelevant.

She's probably condemned to her own capital punishment of horrendous guilt and shame; and that may never go away, poor woman. Her asshole hubby--and doesn't the name "Rusty" kind of say it all (my apologies to any Rustys on the board)--was judge, jury, and executioner.

There was no reason for those children to die: It was entirely avoidable.

[alcibiades_mystery]

14. Good

Reason outweighs emotion in an actual trial. Shocking.

[Samurai_Writer]

16. JURY FINDS YATES INSANE, NOT GUILTY

A Harris County jury has found Andrea Yates not guilty by reason of insanity during her second capital murder trial for the drowning deaths of her children in the family's bathtub in 2001.

The verdict upholding Yates' insanity defense comes after the jury deliberated more than 12 hours and spent two nights sequestered at an area hotel . Yates appeared shocked and sat staring wide-eyed with her lips slightly parted as State District Judge Belinda Hill asked each juror individually whether they agreed with the verdict.

The acquittal in Yates' second capital murder trial follows nearly a month's worth of exhaustive testimony, capped by four hours of emotional closing arguments Monday, during which Yates broke down in tears and her former husband, Russell Yates, abruptly left the courtroom.

The jury's verdict means Yates, 42, will be sent to a state mental hospital for treatment, rather than be sentenced to life in prison.

http://www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/front/4073570.html
~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Thank god justice has been served in this case. May Andrea get the treatment she needs.

[Ex Lion Tamer]

19. Anybody know why her ex-husband "abruptly" left the courtroom?

I'd love to know.

[MountainLaurel]

29. Off to see his new wife probably

Or didn't want to answer questions about why he didn't help a psychotic woman get treatment.

[lumberjack_jeff]

56. If the killer of my children were found not guilty...

... I'd have mixed feelings, at best.

[tammywammy]

109. I heard on the radio today

that he left during closing arguments, when the childrens clothing was set out.

[Jacobin]

17. Good thing she was a woman. Otherwise they'd have fried her

:running away:

[durrrty libby]

20. As it should be

:rofl:

[Megahurtz]

103. LOL!

:7

[merh]

21. Well, yeah, men generally don't suffer from

post partum depression and the chemical and hormonal imbalance that can come with having children.

You do have a point. :freak:

[Jacobin]

47. True enough. Only females are capable of insanity

I'm guessing that's your point?

[LostinVA]

60. No, but only women can get Post Partum Psychosis

Which causes insanity unless the patient is medicated.

[Jacobin]

83. So, men are incapable of having a psychosis that would

render them insane from a legal standpoint?

How inconvenient

[spotbird]

92. Call your mother,

and ask her to tell you the truth about where babies come from. That insight may help you to understand that the nature of this woman's illness was unique to women who have recently given birth.

There was a very sad story in Cincinnati a few years ago where a wealthy, well-connected boy killed his older brother. The killer made gestures to hide his culpability, showing he understood the wrongfulness of the act. Eventually he did admit to what he'd done, but it was clear to all that he was delusional when the crime was committed. He's in a mental hospital today and will remain there until he is deemed sane.

So to answer your other question, yes men also avoid punishment when their insanity is a result of mental illness.

[Roland99]

99. Isn't it, though? As I was trying to get across in the delete sub-thread..

there's a huge double standard when it comes to men and women and violent crime.


Remember that preacher's wife from TN that killed him recently and how the media and the public sentiment was all sympathetic toward her? Well, she was just a brutal killer. No "psychosis" or mental illness.

Women *can* be brutal murderers just like men.

[PassingFair]

118. Of course we CAN.

But the truth is we DON'T.

Only 15% of murders
are committed by women. Of
these, the VAST majority
are murders of abusive spouses.

We make up just over half of
the population.

[Roland99]

120. I'm not talking about quantity. I'm talking about the act itself.

Whenever some "shocking" murder happens and a woman is the suspect, talk immediately goes to mental illness, not just basic evilness and brutality, as would happen if a man were the suspect.

[PassingFair]

121. Thats because we don't have the same levels of testosterone.

We don't do violent crime at ANYWHERE
NEAR the rate of men.

And when we do, it is usually because
of abuse, or mental illness or BOTH.

[Roland99]

131. You don't understand what I'm talking about. Let me make it simpler

I am NOT, let me repeat, NOT talking about the RATE of murders committed. I'm talking about the ACT of murder and the reasons behind it.

For those women that DO commit brutal murders, the media and the public are quick to say "Oh, she must be mentally ill or abused or blah blah blah".

Well, guess what? That's just making excuses.

If it were a man that had committed the SAME murder, he'd be labeled a vicious murderer, a vile creature, a horrible villain, etc. etc.

It's a double standard.

A jealous rage is a jealous rage no matter who the perpetrator is.
Killing for money is killing for money no matter the sex of the murderer.


I cannot make it any more clear than that.

[Kailassa]

174. All of which is entirely irrelevant

to the subject of this thread.

But the threadjack is only to be expected, as guys like you do this all the time in this forum.
We cannot discuss a woman in trouble without a sudden deluge of "pity us poor men" posts attempting to swamp the thread.

Methinks such posters have an ulterior motive.

[LostinVA]

186. Methinks you're right...

[Megahurtz]

104. I guess then since men cannot bear the children

and unless there is another medical reason for insanity.......
then the answer is no!:think:

[LostinVA]

136. WTF did I say that? I believed I mentioned post partum

Men can have all kinds of psychosis, but not post partum. Boo hoo... poor men, they can't get PPP... they are so discriminated against.

Go play somewhere else. Geez. Pathetic. Having to get some kind of borderline misogynistic dig in at a sick woman's expense.

[merh]

61. Nope, that's not what I said.

We were discussing this one case in particular and you wise cracked

Good thing she was a woman. Otherwise they'd have fried her

:running away:

My reply was specific to this case and your post. Since her mental illness was associated with post partum depression and the chemical and hormonol imbalance associated with pregnancy, my answer was legitimate and your come back weak and silly.

:hi:

[Jacobin]

86. HUH?

'we were discussing one case'


how the fuck could we be discussing one case when my response dealt with the scenario of a man accused of murdering five people and claiming to be legally insane? That by definition would be more than one case, no?

neverthefuck mind

[merh]

90. Huh, you never said that.

would you like me to requote you AGAIN.

This thread is about the yates case, would it be different if daddy yates did this? Well, yes it would, he cannot physically have post-partum pyschosis - he just isn't wired that way.

Can't handle logic, heh.

[LostinVA]

137. Merh is correct -- you never stated that

Keep reaching -- it'll keep you flexible in your old age.

Why are you trying to hijack this into some kind of "reverse discrimination" rant? Bizarre...

[alcibiades_mystery]

64. Only females are capable of post partum psychosis

which is the case here.

[Jacobin]

82. Obviously, a man is not capable of that particular psychosis

My point being that if a man had a psychosis that made him insane and committed a similar heinous crime, he would have been strung up.

[alcibiades_mystery]

91. Purely speculative

Maybe he would have and maybe he wouldn't. It would depend on how well his attorneys demonstrated the illness.

[LostinVA]

138. Totally not true -- if anything, I think a woman is judged harsher

in cases like this than the father... because it's the MOTHER. Remember, Andrea Yates was found guilty the first time.

However, if a man is truly found to have psychosis, a jury should find him not guilty.

[saigon68]

26. Get out your flame proof underwear

[LostinVA]

59. What men do you know who get Post Partum Psychosis?

[alcibiades_mystery]

65. It's better to cry "No fair!" than it is to think in specifics, I guess

Some people just wanna be victims, I guess...

[Jacobin]

84. Men get other forms of psychosis

My point was, that in our legal system, they would not have fared as well as Andrea, because she is a woman.

[Marie26]

115. Evidence being.... nt

[LostinVA]

139. Nope, not true n/t

[lumberjack_jeff]

188. It's the patriarchal system at work.

I find it ironic that people are celebrating an underlying assumption that;
1) for biological reasons, women are less responsible for their conduct
2) women are so malleable that the men in their lives can easily replace their fundamental moral code through suggestion
3) husbands are responsible for the conduct of their wives, even when professional opinion suggests there is no problem

This seems a pretty mainstream 18th century viewpoint to me.

[Bridget Burke]

71. A father killing his children is not so newsworthy....

Since it's more common.

Stepfathers or "boyfriends" of the mother? Buried in the back pages.

[redqueen]

72. You trying to be funny?

If a man who kills his family is shown to be psychotic, then yeah his lawyer will probably use the insanity defense as well.

some people :eyes:

[Jacobin]

85. No. I don't think its funny at all

Talk to a criminal defense lawyer. He will tell you that it is almost impossible to successfully use an insanity defense in this country anymore. Juries don't buy it, especially for men

[redqueen]

96. I know it's next to impossible to use...

but I don't know that that's the case 'especially for men'.

[sandnsea]

97. Men kill for different reasons

I'm sure you're aware of the abuse issues that figure into men murdering their children.

[ChazII]

168. Sad but

I think you are right.

[DemExpat]

23. I'm very glad to hear this....

but....:-(

DemEx

[Name removed]

24. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merh]

25. Not likely in the mental facility she will be housed at for treatment.

Unless of course the staff abuses the patients. That happens.

:hi:

[WestHoustonDem]

27. And maybe sge can get the serious mental health care she

needs.

[redqueen]

73. unbelievable.

:puke:

[Bunny]

30. A just verdict. Who would have thought?

I hope she can finally get the help she needs.

[wakeme2008]

31. Anybody want to bet the DA will bring NEW charges against her

Both trials were only for a couple of the kids... The DA could charge her for the other kids.. :shrug:

[Lone_Star_Dem]

36. No, I don't think that's likely

Even if they could, most DA's are careful of their prosecution record. Why bring charges on a case you know you're going to lose?

[colinmom71]

43. They can't....

The first trial was based on two charges of murder, naming two of the children drowned. Due to "double jeopardy" rules, those two counts could not be re-tried. As we all know, that trial's verdict was vacated in the appeallate courts and resulted in the new trial.

This new trial named the remaining three of the five Yates children as murder victims, therefore there are no remaining charges to submit without violating double jeopardy. The only recourse for the DA at this point is to appeal based on perceived trial errors, though I doubt that will happen.

[wakeme2008]

45. I did not know they added the other children for the retrial

Thanks

[Name removed]

32. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[merci_me]

33. I can not friggin believe what the prosecutor just said

He said the jury bought into the insanity plea and this could lead to juries down the road believing an insanity plea of TERRORIST and BOMBERS!!! Fucking repuke hack!!!

[brentspeak]

41. Tell this soul-less, amoral prosecutor put a a sock in it

[LostinVA]

62. WTF? God, this country is totally ignorant about mental illness

[GoddessOfGuinness]

76. The jury, apparently, was not...

so maybe there is some glimmer of hope.

[LostinVA]

140. I know... I know....

[Joanne98]

101. Texas prosecutors are "EVIL"!

[alcibiades_mystery]

66. One wonders whether the prosecutor believes in mental illness, full stop

:shrug:

[coalition_unwilling]

98. I have basically written off the state of Texas

because of statements like that emanating from there. (Plus, my in-laws hail from the Houston area and they're real pieces of work.)

I don't understand why anyone who calls him- or herself "progressive" would even consent to live there and pay taxes, but I have heard that Austin is pretty cool.

[Bridget Burke]

173. Well--the jury was composed of Texans.

And I think they made the right decision. Don't they outnumber the Prosecutor? (Sorry about your in-laws.)

Austin is still OK, although it's become quite yuppified. The people who say Austin is groovy & the rest of Texas sucks are similar to those who say San Francisco is groovy & the rest of California sucks--especially LA. (I'm from Houston.)

[coalition_unwilling]

177. Yes, in retrospect, I believe my post was quite intemperate. I

appreciate your comments. (By the way, LA definitely does suck -- I live there.)

[Bridget Burke]

179. Houston definitely has its shortcomings, too.

But my favorite "get away" city in Texas is San Antonio.

[fudge stripe cookays]

191. Because...

there are plenty of us who not only CALL ourselves progressive, but ARE progressive. Lots of us were born here, and remember our glorious progressive tradition here (remember LBJ? John Connally? Barbara Jordan? Jim Hightower? Ann Richards? Molly Ivins? All Texans...).

Up until about 1990, this was a Democratic state. Some of us still remember it that way and aren't giving up on it. The change occurred right about the time Phil Gramm changed parties and took a bunch of his buddies with him. Curiously, right about the time that Texas started filling up with carpetbaggers from other states who moved down from northern states for the warmer weather, and Californians moving here for cheaper rents and mortgages. So the problem is not all the locals; it's also imported.

If you'll examine the state boards, you'll notice that the Texas forum is the busiest one, loaded up with folks who try every day to make a difference. People like PDittie and Lisa0825, sonias, nopasaran, derby378 and ginbarn, WestHoustonDem and mercime (and anyone else I forgot).

It's nice to sit on your high horse and live where it's easy to be blue. Just go vote, got ot a peace march once in awhile, sit around drinking coffee talking about how stupid we are in red states. You have to have a very tough skin to be progressive in Texas. Some of us love a challenge.

fsc, about fucking sick of the GD Texas bashing already.

[Samurai_Writer]

202. Excellent post!

I lived in Texas most of my life (26 years) and I cannot stand the way that Texas gets bashed in these forums. Thanks, FSC, you said it better than I could have!

[msanthrope]

34. Justice, finally. n/t

[brentspeak]

35. It was pretty clear she was completely psychotic

I'm not sure about ever letting her out in the world, though. Still, incarceration in a psychiatric hospital for the rest of her life is much more appropriate in her case than life in prison.

[elehhhhna]

37. It cost us TX taxpayers almost 400K to figure this out?

IMO she is/was insane and also guilty. Rusty is a robotic engineer-geek type, more or less socially retarded, plus a religio-nutball... But he tried to get help for her.

Horribly heartbreaking all the way around.

[Solly Mack]

49. finally

[LostinVA]

51. Best damned news I've heard all month

Justice has been served.

[NoodleyAppendage]

68. Well, just goes to prove that Texans are capable of higher order thinking.

Yates was textbook for post-partum psychosis and had no business being committed for life to prison. Finally, we have prima facie evidence that not all Texans are dumbass, fundie, Repukes.

BTW - Park Dietz is an ASSHOLE.

J

[Maraya1969]

93. So is Nancy Grace. She only has empathy for dead people.

[NoodleyAppendage]

105. Nancy "Cavernous Nostril" Grace makes me puke.

I'm so sick of her sanctimonious attitude and "above the law" opinions. She's a textbook case of a Freudian reaction formation...there's so much anger in her soul and the only thing keeping her from snapping is this "I'm the lawgiver" routine.

J

[noonwitch]

74. That's the fair verdict

She needs to be in a locked psychiatric facility for the rest of her life.

What she did was terrible, but she is a schizophrenic, which is a tragic condition. I hope someday they find a cure that will prevent situations like this from happening again.

[Mz Pip]

75. As long as she is locked up forever

it doesn't matter to me where it is. Prison or institution, whatever, just keep her off the streets.

Maybe her husband was complicit in some way but there are lots of Fundy women who have it a whole lot worse than she did who don't kill all their kids.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[femrap]

78. And maybe not all fundie women had the psychotic

chemical imbalance that Ms. Yates suffered from. Why her husband wanted her to have more children after being told NOT to. Four just wasn't enough for him....and afterall, he didn't have to carry them or home school them.

People don't talk about this....but you know what, not every damn person on the face of this Earth should reproduce. Not everyone is cut out to be a father or mother. Just look around at the abused, neglected, and abandoned children there are. Our culture pushes VERY hard to make people reproduce when they don't really want to....

[GoddessOfGuinness]

79. She'll need the institution to protect her for the rest of her life...

If her sanity is fully restored, how will she be able to live with herself?

[Bridget Burke]

80. She's been receiving some care in prison.

Whenever she "improves" they have to put her on suicide watch.

She's got a life sentence, no matter where it's served.

[Name removed]

106. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[KFC]

112. Killing your five little children tends to turn some people off

Way below average behavior. Far enough below average that she should remain locked up for the rest of her life.

[Mz Pip]

116. Since you are replying to me

I might point out that I never mentioned schizophrenia nor am I a dopey male or an ignorant freep.

I have an opinion which is based on some actual knowledge of mental illness.

She killed her 5 kids. FOr whatever the reason, psychosis, schizophrenia, bad hair day, she needs to be off the streets. This is not some minor lapse in judgment or some easily treatable post-partum depression. She killed her kids.

If wanting her to be off the streets for the rest of her life somehow makes me an ignorant freep, so be it. Heaven forbid she has another 'episode' when she's released.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[durrrty libby]

117. Only part of my response was to you, but since your lack of understanding

the illness
was similar to others, I addressed several issues in one post.

The fact that you said,” lots of Fundy women who have it a whole lot worse than she did who don't kill all their kids”, proves you are clueless about post-partum psychosis.

The amount of willful ignorance in this thread is nauseating.


If people would go educate themselves about this debilitating illness, I guarantee they would be ashamed of the utterly stupid things they have said here.

[Mz Pip]

119. Ok

so in your expert opinion can you guarantee that what she suffers from is only post partum depression? Can you guarantee that with treatment she will never, ever do anything like this again? Can you guarantee it?

Unlike the hard sciences where observations and experiments lead to irrefutable facts, the science of the mind is not so definitive. Maybe she can recover. But I wouldn't bet the house on it. Nor would I risk putting the care of other children in her hands.

It has not been unheard of for people who are deemed cured to kill again. Would you really want to risk that?

Mz Pip
:dem:

[durrrty libby]

127. I would not call myself an expert.

However, I have a medical degree and
experience in this area

Post-partum psychosis is a medical emergency It is not something that comes on gradually, but it can only happen to someone who recently gave birth.

So, yes I would say that it is impossible for it to affect Mrs Yates if she were taking care of someone else’s child.

For example: It can happen after a c-section. The mom gets a nosocomial infection from the delivery room, develops a high fever and hallucinations.

It can develop from an overlooked or inappropriately treated illness of the mom.

Once the crisis is recognized and treated, it is gone for good. It is not a chronic illness that someone must live with.

If the woman has more children it is unlikely, but not impossible, that it will happen again, but it is short lived if recognized and treated. And really, the family around someone with this would have to be idiots or completely negligent not to see the mom has a problem.

[LostinVA]

146. Your facts are so wrong in this post

No one said she had DEPRESSION. The poster said PSYCHOSIS. They are 180 degrees different from one another. Ummm.... this is a hard science. It's a mental ILLNESS, not a personality disorder. This isn't finding out why you're afraid to wear blue shirts. This is about BRAIN CHEMISTRY. You know, psychiatrists, who are MEDICAL DOCTORS?

Damn, go google and educate yourself, so you don't say this stuff to someone you know who has someone they love with this illness.

[LostinVA]

144. Your posts show ZERO understanding of mental illness

I'm quite amazed a thunderbolt didn't rain down when you wrote that, actually.

And your opinion does not trump medical facts.

And, being flip aka "the bad hair day"? Over severe untreated psychosis that resulted in five deaths and the living death of the mother.

Good Gawd. The way we talk about our mentally ill in this country... you would never say that about someone with a physical illness... IT'S NO DIFFERENT.

[CTyankee]

199. Her "episode" was due to giving birth when she shouldn't have

because she was suffering from post partum psychosis. That episode was given to her by her husband, who knew she should not give birth again lest her "episodes" begin again!

She will be in a mental health facility for the rest of her life. What more do you want to do to her? You cannot bring back her 5 children? Do you not see that what happened to her was as a result of her husband and immediate community and family failing her, resulting in fatal consequences to her children?

What a tragedy! And how avoidable it could have been!

[lumberjack_jeff]

125. Like the "truly dopey males" who suggest that her husband...

... made her crazy? Or that he should be imprisoned for the five murders she committed?

Those are the comments that really display ignorance - not only of mental illness, but also of the nature of terms like "responsibility" and "adulthood"

Only a child has the luxury of having their own actions being someone else's responsibility.

[durrrty libby]

130. "Only a child has the luxury of having their own actions being someone

else's responsibility."

It must be so simple living in your simple world. I envy you

:woohoo: :hide:

[lumberjack_jeff]

143. I gather you disagree. I'll give you some time to decide why.

:eyes:

[durrrty libby]

149. A person in a full blown psychotic episode has no control

over their actions and therefore can not be held responsible. You may not like it, but it is the truth.

One description is it is like a person on an LSD trip.

Everything in the chunk of time is altered and the person experiencing it has no control to change any of it, yet they can describe it when it is over.

Do some reading....learning stuff is neat and helps people to stop talking out of their.....
...........hat....yes that's it....hat!

[lumberjack_jeff]

153. The issue isn't whether she's insane...

... the courts have decided that she was, and I can accept that.

What I can't accept is the court of DU opinion that has decided that it's not really the fault of the person who filled the tub and held children in it five times, it's the fault of the husband.

If husbands are accountable for their wive's actions, then wives are legally analagous to children.

Funny that no one here is blaming the psychiatrists/therapists who treated her at the husband's request and sent her home when the husband's insurance money ran out.

I ask my initial question again. This is from an article in the Charlotte observer from a couple of weeks ago.

David Crespi, who confessed to killing his 5-year-old twins in January, has agreed to plead guilty to murder and spend the rest of his life in prison, the Observer has learned.

The 45-year-old bank executive is expected to plead guilty, perhaps later this month, to two counts of first-degree murder in the stabbing deaths of daughters Samantha and Tessara.

Crespi, who told police he was struggling with depression when he killed the twins, would then avoid a capital murder trial and possible death sentence. He'd be sentenced to life in prison without parole.

<snip>

In his confession, Crespi told homicide detectives that his battles with depression had triggered thoughts of killing his children, wife and parents, and even running down strangers with his car.

He also had worried about losing his job as a senior vice president in Wachovia's audit division. He thought he was in financial trouble and that he had failed to adequately care for his family. Killing the twins, he believed, would somehow end those worries.
http://www.charlotte.com/mld/charlotte/15050012.htm

Were these deaths the fault of Kim Crespi, for having worked the poor guy so hard and put so much pressure on him? Does the fact that David Crespi had a psychotic episode make Kim Crespi morally and legally culpable for David's crime?

I suspect not. Perhaps you can tell me why.

[durrrty libby]

159. I suppose it could be because this thread is so long that you missed it,

but several people do hold the doctor accountable, including me.

As far as the Crespi case goes, your reference to it is the first I heard of it
From reading the article you supplied, it looks as though he was following a prescribed treatment, although it seemed insufficient.

I doubt the wife holds any legal culpability, although for treatment to be successful

the doctors usually involve family members. How involved was she? It doesn’t say.

There are too many unknowns for me to make a judgment on that case. However, I have
experience and knowledge about post-partum psychosis, so I felt it necessary to offer my opinion. There was so much foolishness here, I felt compelled to respond. Also, each case needs to be judged on its own merits.

[LostinVA]

142. You got it....

[LostinVA]

141. Glad to know you are so educated on mental illness

and what psychosis is... oh wait, you';re not.

I sincerely hope no one you love is ever diagnosed with this horrible illness. And, if they are, I sincerely hope they are treated with more understanding and compassion than you are showing Andrea Yates right now.

The ignorance in this country over mental illness confounds me...

[K8-EEE]

87. I Hate That Damn "Abraham" Story, It Sets Off The Fundies

To murder their kids because they hear GAWWWD asking them to....seriously out of all the wacko Bible stories that is the worst. "Kill your son for me....NO JUST KIDDING! Just wanted to know if you cared, that's all." How fucking sick is that?

It boggles my mind how people can find the Bible literally true -- if that's so, GAWWD is the ultimate abusive father in many cases. "I love you, don't make me send you to the Lake O Fire!"

[Maraya1969]

95. I was just talking to someone about that! Abraham was a "man of

God" because he was willing to sacrifice his son? What a stupid ass ed lesson to teach? There must be some other interpretation that is better than, "be willing to sacrifice everything, including your children" to groups of people that include the very fragile minded.

[Kailassa]

190. I once read another explanation of that story.

According to the person commenting on it, there are indications in the bible that Isaac was mentally handicapped, and that the strory was a corruption of an earlier one which was explaining that God wanted people to stop rejecting and killing the handicapped, and that is why Abraham was going to kill Isaac and God stopped him.

It was a cute explanation, but I felt it was really stretching things.

As my own parents tried to "sacrifice" me when I was 13 and years of incestuous rape had finally made me pregnant, and they were respected, church-going "pillars of the community", I have very strong feelings about the story myself. (I was locked up and starved and told the only way out was to swallow a packet of pills the local doctor had given them for the purpose, because my being preganant would so badly stain my family's reputation that the futures of my father and 6 brothers would be ruined. Besides, they planned to collect a nice insurance pay-out for me. As it was I miscarried the night before the deadline to swallow them.)

I agree that this story is dangerous tinder to the fire of both psychosis, and egocentric religious arrogance, as are the many old testament stories in which god tells the tribes to commit genocide, wiping out whole cities, even making sure they cut the unborn children out of the womb and murder them, encourage supposedly christian warmongers.

Gnosticim has an interesting way of explaining all this. According to Gnostic beliefs:

The Supreme Father God or Supreme God of Truth is remote from human affairs; he is unknowable and undetectable by human senses. She/he created a series of supernatural but finite beings called Aeons. One of these was Sophia, a virgin, who in turn gave birth to an defective, inferior Creator-God, also known as the Demiurge. (Demiurge means "public craftsman" in Greek.) This lower God is sometimes called Yaldabaoth or Ialdabaoth Jaldabaoth -- from Aramaic words meaning "begetter of the Heavens." This is Jehovah, the God of the Hebrew Scriptures (Old Testament). He is portrayed as the creator of the earth and its life forms. He is viewed by Gnostics as fundamentally evil, jealous, rigid, lacking in compassion, and prone to genocide. The Demiurge "thinks that he is supreme. His pride and incompetence have resulted in the sorry state of the world as we know it, and in the blind and ignorant condition of most of mankind."

http://www.religioustolerance.org/gnostic2.htm

The Catholic church in past centuries has tortured, burnt and killed many thousands of people for holding such beliefs, including wiping out the Cathars with incredible cruelty. One would think they were trying to prove the gnostics right.

[Xenotime]

88. Now the suffering can stop and the healing begin...

[Megahurtz]

107. Good. A Fair Verdict.

Finally Postpartum Psychosis and Postpartum Depression gets the attention it deserves.

But we may be seeing a lot more of it in underage girls
now that the idiots running this place are banning every which-way to abortion!:sarcasm:

[moobu2]

123. She’s a Christian white woman

[brentspeak]

126. Uh, and...?

[Megahurtz]

129. That makes no sense.

That would be all the more reason to punish her in their eyes because then
she "should have known better".

If anything of what you say is true, then she would have been held
to a higher standard (expected more out of her) to begin with.

[fun n serious]

134. Freepers reply is sick!!

I took a peak at what the freepers are saying, here are a couple of quotes:

Here we go again. Not guilty by reason of ovaries. No man could have pulled off an insanity plea with those facts.

Not guilty by reason of stugotz?

I think if anyone deserves the crazy defense, it's her.

That being said, (and I've said this before) if someone is so crazy that they murder, they need to be executed. end quotes.

WOW!!!!! Now we need to execute the mentally ill? Good God!!! Those freepers are sick sick sick.

[durrrty libby]

145. It's not just the freepers

Sadly, I see plenty of freep-like posts here.

It seems that ignorance truly is bliss.

[LostinVA]

147. Posts pretty mich saying the same thing on here...

[bertha katzenengel]

193. You have absolutely no understanding of mental illness.

"if someone is so crazy that they murder, they need to be executed"

I hope you lose your ignorance before someone you love gets sick like Yates.

[saberjet22]

152. Andrea Yates retrial verdict::

I'd like to institute a new verdict. It's about time this was put into law as a fair and feasible verdict(where applicable, of course).
GUILTY by reason of insanity!!!

[happyslug]

156. Murder requires a MENTAL component.

I.e. not only that you KILLED someone, but that is what you wanted to do. Thus when you are found NOT guilty do to insanity, she was held to have KILLED SOMEONE and as such is a clearly a danger to herself and others. As such she will be tried in a different action in the same court.

Now mental cases end to be closed to the public, something which I believe is causing more harm to the mentally ill then if people heard the mental evidence in a Court of Law. The problem is that people believe if you get off do to insanity you get to walk the streets, that is almost NEVER the case. Such people end up in mental hospitals with security as tight if not tighter than prisons (There are some cases where someone was sent to a mental Home instead of Prison and wanted transferred to prison for it was "Easier"). Thus when you are ruled insane, you do not get to walk the streets, instead you get another hearing on whether you can be released, in a forum where to keep you in all that is needed to be shown is that you may still be a danger to herself or others.

Thus Guilty but insane, is just not possible in out law, you are either competent to have done the crime (i.e. GUILTY) or you are incompetent and thus lack the mental component of the crime (I.e. NOT guilty).

Furthermore Prosecutors will OPPOSE the change, for Juries want to convict, if if they can convict but rule someone insane they will do so. Prosecutors like the idea that jury members do NOT understand what will happen to someone if the jury rules someone insane. Juries often believe someone who commented a horrible crime will be permitted to walk the streets and thus want to convict them to keep them off the streets (Prosecutors often oppose life without parole for the same reason, a Jury seeing a horrible murder do NOT want the person out of the Street thus given a "choice" between giving the person Death OR giving him or her life and thus permitting the murderer to get out in Seven years, the Jury will Sentence the person to death, but if the Jury has the option of Life without Parole, such Juries will often opt for Life without Parole over Death).

The same with Insanity, if the Jury believes if they rule a person insane he be walking the streets the next day, the Jury will COnvict the Defendant just to keep him or her off the streets. Thus prosecutors oppose "Guilty but Insane" for that implies some sort of prison time to the jury when the Prosecutor wants the jury to believe any verdict but guilty of Murder will leave the Defendant walking the Streets.

[Bridget Burke]

163. Texas has no "guilty but insane" or "life without parole" sentences.

Legislators keep proposing Life Without Parole, but it is always voted down. Reason: It would cause fewer Death Sentences.

Many prisoners do have serious mental problems. Perhaps they would not qualify for Not Guilty because of Insanity or Guilty but Insane. However, if their problems had been caught & treated before they did the crimes, they would not have done them. And their victims would still be alive.

[LostinVA]

161. Oh my GAWD

Educate yourself on mental illness. Thank you.

[Toucano]

157. She's not guilty, but her HMO is.

She was sent home TWICE from the hospital when her insurance coverage ran out.

[HuffleClaw]

158. there was a case some time ago in which the prosecutor, and defense

agreed the accused was insane but ONE juror (a rw fundy of course) IGNORED the judge's instructions because he 'didn't believe in the insanity plea concept'

[DiverDave]

165. Whats WRONG WITH YOU PEOPLE???

5 CHILDREN ARE DEAD!!!

and all you can say is "poor andrea?"

Well, I submit that you all have forgotten she MURDERED 5 human beings...she should FRY!
Children are the least of us, less the the blacks, less then the hispanics, hell, less then DOGS!!

Fuck her, she should fry in hell....children suffer, and you just say "Poor andrea" I want to VOMIT.

[Name removed]

166. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Bridget Burke]

167. Rusty fucked her--even when warned against it.

And he had a "spiritual teacher" who taught that she or her children would "fry in hell." You appear to agree with both the clueless husband & the ranting preacher who taught that everyone but he & his family was doomed to Hell.

Odd that a Texas jury would have a greater grasp on reality than you.

[LostinVA]

170. Andrea Yates murdered no one

There is an intent of maliciousness in murder. She killed her five children while in an extreme psychotic state.

Educate yourself. You ignorance concerning the difference between personality disorders and mental illness and lack of compassion concerning a MEDICAL CONDITION is embarrassing.

Your misinformed opinion does NOT trump medical facts.

[Name removed]

171. Deleted sub-thread

Sub-thread removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[AtomicKitten]

172. What's wrong? -- compassion and information

and the ability to evaluate issues in more than 2-dimensions

[Witchy_Dem]

180. Your post and your sig are in conflict.

Just thought you might like to know.

[DiverDave]

182. ME??

5 CHILDREN??? and I'm the "sick, sinister" one?

My god, you all better look in the mirror, for the lives of 5 CHILDREN mean NOTHING TO YOU!

Kill a kid (or 5), and get sympathy....truly sickening

[lumberjack_jeff]

185. You don't understand Dave,

She couldn't have done it. She's a woman. It must have been her husband.

She confessed? Well then it must have been his fault somehow - her husband made her do it.
- So, it turns out that she was crazy?

Well then, he must have made her crazy. Yeah, that's the ticket.
- It was biochemical insanity related to childbirth?

Well... uh... the husband should have known what the doctors to whom he took Andrea - and exhausted his medical insurance on - didn't know.

See? Only men commit crimes.

The funny thing is that the people who are gang-tackling you would be the first to decry the evils of sexism.

But what do we know? Just like the guy who lost his five children and apparently should go to jail for that loss, we're just men.

[superconnected]

187. If you give a crazy person a gun, who's fault is it if they shoot someone?

[Marie26]

195. Why do you have

to make this into a male/female thing? It isn't & it shouldn't be. If someone commits a crime in a psychotic state, w/o knowing that action is wrong, they are insane. And they should receive a verdict of "not guilty by reason of insanity." That verdict allows the person to received the medical care they obviously need, while staying in a mental institution where they cannot harm others. The real problem here, IMO, is that this defense is hardly ever sucessful, even when someone is clearly insane. Remember, Andrea Yates was convicted the first time, in spite of many medical experts who testified that she was severally mentally ill & in a state of psychosis. If the defense can't be used here, IMO it can't be used at all. I'm not cheering this verdict, because this is a tragedy all around, but I am somewhat relieved that the justice system worked in this case.

[lumberjack_jeff]

198. a) I agree that it worked b) if you think I'm the one making it a gender..

...thing then you haven't read the whole thread.

I accept that Andrea Yates was insane. Speaking for myself, I think that justice is adequately served because it's unlikely she'll ever walk free. Due to the heinous nature of the crime, I can see how others might not agree.

What I don't accept is the contention of some here (not you) that her husband is morally accountable or legally responsible for both her insanity and her crime. Further, I reject the premise of the posters here who explicitly say a) men as a gender lack the intellect necessary to comprehend the concept of insanity, and b) men who say that Andrea has been inadequately held accountable for her actions are freepers who do so only to promote some unspecified sinister conspiracy.

If there's one thing I would change about DU, it's the man-bashing and the knee-jerk defense of even the most eggregious behavior by females. If one has the stomach, one need only review some of the threads about the Duke rape case for excellent examples.

[Marie26]

201. Misascribed motives, IMO

If there's one thing I'd change, it's the knee-jerk accusations against feminists on DU, but that's neither here nor there. I agree about the basic reaction, but I think you're misascribing the motives. What I think is going on has much less to do w/her gender & much more to do w/the way people react to these types of tragedies.

1.) People need someone to blame - Especially in a situation this tragic, this incomprehensible, people will look for somebody to blame & hold responsible. Here, if you accept that Yates was psychotic, you can't really blame her for her actions, but you still want to hold someone accountable. The husband is a convenient proxy.

2.) Fundie-bashing - always popular. I think many of the accusations are because of their religion. Most progressives react badly to some of the regressive religious beliefs, & it makes people much less sympathetic.

3.) His personality - You've got to admit, he does not come off as the most sympathetic character in the various news articles. He was at best in denial, & at worst recklessly endangering the family by continuing to have children & leaving them w/someone in a psychotic state. I give him the benefit of the doubt, but many people will not.

3.) Inadequate understanding of mental illness. - IMO most people aren't very educated on what causes mental illness. Post-partum psychosis is a chemical imbalance that can create hallucinations & paranoid delusions. It's nobody's "fault". Not her religion, or her husband, or even Yates, ultimately. It was just the result of a malfunctioning brain. And her husband might not have been very educated either; many family members aren't able to recognize the full extent of someone's mental illness. He may have been a bad husband, but that alone doesn't cause the severe mental illness she displayed. I think sometimes it's just easier to find a definite external "reason" for the mental illness, rather than the randomness of a hormonal/chemical imbalance.

So, I don't think this is a man-bashing thing, whatever you may think. It's more a reaction to the horror of this tragedy. People will try to find various ways to make the incomprehensible comprehensible.

[DiverDave]

204. Look, her husband sure should have seen the signs

but my main point is that this whole thread has forgotten 5 kids that are dead...I look at my 5 year old and my 8 year old and weep for the lost lives this monster killed.

kids, just babies...my heart breaks thinking of them...
She doesnt deserve to live in that country club.
I saw the place, you cant call it anything else.

[pokercat999]

189. Any SANE person would know AY was not....nt

[Evergreen Emerald]

192. I can't help but think of the victims --there is no justice for them

I think of them running from their mother--the person they love more than anyone else--as she, with murdered babies in the tub and evil in her eyes, chases them down as run in desperation and fear and betrayal from their mommy.

And the evidence shows that she knew she was wrong. The thought that she ever deserves to be free in this world is appalling.

[Bridget Burke]

194. The jurors disagree with you. They spent a month listening to evidence.

Andrea Yates will probably be under State medical care for the rest of her life. She did get some some treatment in prison--whenever she got "better" they have to put her on suicide watch. She will NEVER be free.

July 28, 2006, 12:47AM
Yates jury wiser than hired guns

By RICK CASEY

....The six men and six women were forced to do what most of us would pay money to avoid: spend a month with the horror of what Yates did thrust literally into their faces. They looked at crime-scene photos and videos of the drowned children, four of them laid out by Yates on a bed and the oldest floating in the bathtub. They listened to testimony on Yates chasing her oldest son down, and how hard he fought....

....in finding Yates not guilty by reason of insanity, the jurors were not minimizing the tragedy of the children.

The last evidence they asked for was a group of happy photos of the family before Andrea Yates finally snapped. Parnham said that when the defense team was notified of the request, he told his colleagues the jurors were "saying goodbye to the children." Later we learned that before they left the jury room they observed two minutes of silence for each child....

Parnham said others want to be involved in the Yates Family Memorial Fund, a nonprofit agency that prints pamphlets on postpartum depression in English, Spanish and Vietnamese, and provides hotline counseling for women in crisis.

This is a jury that understands that locking Yates away in prison would neither avenge her children nor provide a shred of deterrence to keep the next insane mother from killing her children.

www.chron.com/disp/story.mpl/metropolitan/casey/4078005.html

But you obviously know more about the case than these 12 Texans.

The Yates Family Memorial Fund is actually the Yates Children Memorial Fund, (which) enabled the Mental Health Association of Greater Houston to initiate a program for women’s mental health education. This program has evolved into the Women’s Mental Health Initiative.

They accept contributions: www.mhahouston.org/cms-education/ycmf.html

[Evergreen Emerald]

200. Klaus, OJ and Jackson were also aquitted.

And those juries were wrong too. I hope she is never released from the
hospital. She, however, does have the possiblity of release. Her children? She
did not give them any options.

[Marie26]

196. She won't be

That's the single biggest misconception about the "insanity defense." People think that it means that the defendant will be released out on the streets. It doesn't work like that. Even if the defendant "wins" w/this defense, he or she isn't given freedom. Instead, the defendant will be institutionalized until he is sane & no longer poses a danger to society. Most of the time, the person is institutionalized for much longer than the actual jail sentence would have been. Hinckley, for example, is still incarcerated in a mental institution more than 20 years after the Reagan assasination attempt. And public mental institutions can be even worse than jail. It is not a free ride & does not mean that the person escaped justice. If a person is truly insane, it is a just verdict.

[DiverDave]

203. EXACTLY!!

I have been saying that the children have been lost in the crying for the murderer.

and that is what she is.

5 children dead, and you all weep for their killer.

I'll say it again...sickening.