BBC: Israel 'to control Lebanon strip'

[Eugene]

Last Updated: Tuesday, 25 July 2006, 17:31 GMT 18:31 UK

Israel 'to control Lebanon strip'

Israel says it will keep control over an area in southern Lebanon
until an international force can be deployed.

Defence Minister Amir Peretz said: "We have no other option. We have
to build a new security strip that will be a cover for our forces."

His comments came as US Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice ended
a regional tour to head for crisis talks in Rome.

Hostilities are continuing, with fresh explosions reported in Beirut
and Hezbollah rocket attacks on Haifa.

<snip>

Full article: http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/middle_east/5214046.stm

[catmother]

1. hopefully an international peacekeeping force will be in place

soon.

[leesa]

2. How very conveeeeeenient. Why are these buffer zones never on their side

of the border?

[Benhurst]

3. It ought to be on both sides.

[Cary]

6. When you win wars you get to decide things like that.

Life isn't always fair. Please explain why Hezbollah has been training and arming itself if it didn't intend to eventually provoke Israel?

[IA_Seth]

8. Oh, that's great...

So THAT's why Hitler was able to be the decider, because he "won wars"...I forgot.

How asinine.

[Cary]

11. No need to invoke Godwin's Law, IA_Seth.

The Israelis aren't Hitler. Their neighbors are not pre WWII Poland and France.

[IA_Seth]

22. Lol, Godwin's Law eh?

Ok, so replace Hitler with any other piece of garbage that won a war in the past. Hitler is just the first warmongering dictator that comes to mind....

Israel's defenders always throw about the BS about "if you win a war you decide" well sure I suppose you are right, but it doesn't make it morally justified nor does it make it legal.

[Cary]

36. The only moral justification is a decision between bad and worse.

Hezbollah is armed and trained for one purpose, and one purpose only. And Hezbollah isn't even the main threat here. That threat is Iran.

[LostinVA]

44. So.... a nice segue from Hezbollah to Iran

Oh peachy. Guess you agree with the Cabal, then?

[Cary]

46. I think Iran is a real problem.

They absolutely hate the U.S. and they are demanding their place in the sun.

Do I agree with what they will do? Let's just say that I will never trust them again.

[funnymanpants]

59. What do you mean?

What do you mean again? You do know that the US government overthrew the government of Iran in 1953 and installed and then supported a dictator, right?

[LostinVA]

69. Why bring up facts, FMP?

They just confuse opinions...

[Name removed]

107. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[cali]

25. Asinine it may be, but it's simply

a fact. You can place a value judgement on it, but it's a reality. Victors in wars throughout human history impose the terms of peace; whether it's Hitler or the U.S. or any other nation or tribe.

[IA_Seth]

27. I am not doubting that...

But the concept that this somehow justifies a position, or makes it even slightly defensible, is what I have a problem with.

[cali]

31. It's not a justification as

to why the buffer zone will be on the Lebanese side, just an explanation.

[DoYouEverWonder]

9. Provoke?

I guess there is no such thing as self defense unless you're the country with the most nukes?

[Cary]

12. I think you lack perspective.

Place yourself and your family in Haifa for, oh, ten minutes and then tell me you empathize with Hezbollah.

The Israelis I know really don't want to be in Lebanon. They really do feel that they have no other choice in this matter, and their feelings on this are justified.

Oh, and Hezbollah is just lovely. Aren't they? There's absolutely no military reason to load up rockets with ball bearings and indiscriminantly launch them against civilian targets. They do this to kill and maim civilians.

Self defense my ass. <spits>

[DoYouEverWonder]

15. Then you put yourself in Southern Lebanon

with jets dumping bunkers on your head and let's talk about who has no choice.

I can see both sides, which apparently in order to support Israel's right to whatever the fuck they please in not allowed.

BTW: Israel has occupied So. Lebanon before. Apparently people forget that part.

[Cary]

23. The civilians were warned to leave.

I know that's not a pleasant thing but they were warned for a reason. Given the assault there could be a lot more dead and wounded.

If Hezbollah had any decency, any decency at all, they wouldn't interweave themselves with civilians.

[Zhade]

26. So you also support the U.S. military bombing innocent Iraqis...

...to get at the insurgents among the population, even if they are warned to leave first.

You have no problem destroying water supplies and electricity innocent Iraqis also need in order to destroy the insurgents' ability to use those same resources.

Otherwise, you're pimping a double-standard, and hypocrisy.

[Cary]

35. Israel's situation is a tad bit different than our own.

They are a nation of about 6 million Jews surrounded by a lot of Arabs who want nothing more than the total destruction of the State of Israel. Note that I didn't say that all Arabs want that, but suffice it to say that there are many more Arabs who fit that description than there are Israelis.

Israel fights for its own survival. We fought Iraq because of our president's stupidity and God knows what else.

[funnymanpants]

57. You left out the important part

>>Note that I didn't say that all Arabs want that, but suffice it to say that there are many more Arabs who fit that description than there are Israelis

Yes, except Israel actually has the means to do so and is doing so right now. Israel is destroying the Palestinian culture. It is building settlements condemned by international law. The Israel government is doing to the Palestinians what the American Government did to the Indians. So while there might be more Arabs who want the destruction of Israel than the other way around, Israel right now is doing the destruction.

And since Israel is a nuclearl power with one of the most powerful armies in the world, it is hardly fighting for its survival.

[cali]

29. For whatever reason nothing infuriates

me more than the argument that the Lebanese were warned. Yeah, they were warned, but considering that 95% of the bridges and 80% of the roads have been damaged by bombing, and considering that israel has repeatedly bombed civilian vehicles flying white flags, and Red Cross vehicles, that's an awfully cynical statement.

[Zhade]

32. Agreed.

I guess it must be okay that innocent Lebanese are pinned down, can't escape, and get bombed indiscriminately, as long as paper warnings dropped from 10,000 feet might make it to them to warn them to do the one thing they can't, which is leave.

Whenever that remark comes up, just remember: if it were Americans trapped and dying, these same posters would likely not excuse away the deaths by saying "but they were warned".

This should reveal just how much some people, even "liberals" here, value Arab/Muslim life - not much, apparently. IMHO, that's latent racism at work.

[Name removed]

76. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Cary]

37. How do you explain the ratio between casualties and refugees?

If the Israelis were really gunning for civilians, what would stop them from killing thousands by now?

[funnymanpants]

63. Because they don't care

Israel wouldn't simply gun civilians because that would lose them support of even the US. Do you really think we would support them if in plain view Israel bombed thousands and thousands of civilians?

The reason civilians are killed is that Israel just doesn't care. If a feeling vehicle might be Hizbollah, they bomb it. They don't care. This is what is meant as disprportionate force and this is what Human Rights Watch and the UN have condemned.

And Israel has deliberately bombed illegitimate civilian targets, including bridges, the airport, a TV station *hostile* to Hizbollah (but one which could show the carnage and Israel didn't want the pictures to get out), and factories. Israel bragged that it would turn the clock back on Lebanon 20 years, though it is a budding democracy. That constitutes a war crime.

[go west young man]

96. Just curious but doesn't bombing TV stations and radio stations

constitute targeting journalists? We did it at the beginning of the Iraq war and now Israel does it but no one ever mentions that they are killing the messengers. Something thats against the Geneva conventions.

[cali]

80. I don't believe

the Israelis are intentionally killing civilians, but I do believe they're demonstrating a callous indifference to the lives of the civilians. And I don't think that those people trying to survive are going to make too much of a distinction.

[DoYouEverWonder]

39. Nice warning

Doesn't do much good when you've already bombed the airport and the roads out. Not to mention, bombing civilians fleeing.

[LostinVA]

45. My, you are VERY good at stringing together the memes in one post

So what.

Israel is wrong, no matter how much spin you want to wrap around your words.

[Cary]

49. ???

It doesn't matter what you or I believe. Israel is concerned with their own survival and they're going to do what they think they need to do. I believe they have a right to do this. I deplore the loss of civilian lives. Every Israeli I've ever heard on the subject likewise deplores the loss of civilian lives.

I believe they wouldn't be in Lebanon now if they didn't feel they had to be there.

You believe otherwise. BFD.

As for Hezbollah, I still say: <spits>

[funnymanpants]

55. And not given enough time to do so

Israel is guilty of war crimes, at least according to Human Rights Watch. The civilians killed by Israeli missiles are the responsiblity of Israel, not Hizbollah, unless we want to start engaging in Orwellian logic.

[catmother]

21. don't you just love all this glorification of Hizbollah?

:puke:

[Cary]

24. Yeah, what's that about anyway?

[catmother]

42. like i just said in my last 2 posts, they help feed the poor, build

schools, etc. and they win the people over.:crazy:

[Cary]

50. They are like the old ward politicians in Chicago.

That makes it okay for them to strap on explosives and kill people, and send rockets full of ball bearings into Israel?

We've gone to great lengths to develop precision guided weapons so that we don't have to kill civilians. Yes, the Israelis are using our weapons. So what does the beloved Hezbollah do? It takes advantage of our desire to not kill civilians by using those civilians as shields.

Lovely.

[catmother]

60. a TERRORIST is a TERRORIST no matter how much good

they do. but apparently they won people over. after all they were elected in a democratic election. but that does not make them the "good guys".

[Stella_Artois]

52. LOOK !! its about a proportional response !

Israel should fire 6,000+ unguided rockets at the center mass of Lebanese towns and cities....oh wait...perhaps Hezbollah are bad guys too.

[Zhade]

28. Point out the "glorification of Hezbollah".

That's a dishonest statement, and you know it.

[catmother]

41. see my last post #38. it is not a dishonest statement. not only

have i heard it from lebanese government officials, but from some of the lebanese people. sure, Hizbollah helps the poor, builds schools just like Hamas and Al Qaeda -- that's how they win people over.

now some people may not like what i'm about to say but christian missionaries do the same thing. they go to these countries, help the poor and then convert them to christianity. there's always strings attached to these good works.

[LostinVA]

47. Not one damn person has ever glorified Hezbollah on DU

Unless it was some troll post I haven't seen.

Seriously, how DARE you accuse of of glorifying a terrorist organization.

Get some perspective.

Oh wait, I guess this means I'm antisemitic. Oops.

[catmother]

51. did you read my posts. i never said that anyone on DU was

glorifying Hizbollah. i repeated what tucker carlson said and what i heard on the news.

on edit: right now on MSNBC tucker carlson is interviewing the lebanese ambassador and he is saying that they support Hizbollah, but there not arming them.

[catmother]

66. and i guess i'm a "jew lover"

:sarcasm:

[Binka]

91. Hyperbole Much?

What a crock.

[Binka]

90. Glorification?

Grow up.

[Solo_in_MD]

16. I was not aware that Israel

- Was attacking into Lebanon with rockets
- Had an illegal militia on its border claiming a religous mandate to eliminate Lebanon

Lebanon was unable to control the Hezollah militia. It is now going to get the outside help it needs.

[DoYouEverWonder]

18. We can't control Bush

how do expect the Lebanese to control Hezbollah? Especially, when the US and Israel won't lift a finger to help. The new PM begged Israel to do a prisoner release when he took office to help bolster his position. Seems Israel couldn't be bothered.

[Solo_in_MD]

70. Funny comparison, but not a valid one

The Lebanese government was unable to control an illegal militia within its borders. Its not clear how much help the US and Israel could have given, or would have been accepted. Its interesting to note that other Muslim nations did nothing, though they are now professeing some concern about a potential Shia crescent. Iran and Syria were supporting Hezbollah as a proxy so of course they would not aid Lebanon. Other than a resolution, the UN did nothing either. How much help Lebanon asked for in private and from whom is not known. A prisoner release would have not helped dislodge Hezbollah.

On the other hand, Bush is the recognized head of the US national governent. Short of impeachment, he is with us until the end of his term.

[DoYouEverWonder]

77. Everything we are accusing Hezbollah of doing

George Bush & Co have done and much, much worse.

Hitler and Idi Amin were the recognized heads of their countries too. They were still tyrants.

I don't think the US has a right to tell other countries what's right and wrong anymore. Especially when it is the US advocating the right to break international and humanitarian laws.

[catmother]

19. some lebanese don't want to control them. i've heard some

of the lebanese higher-ups saying how great hizbollah is with it's aid to the poor.

[Zhade]

30. Links? Proof? Anything that indicates that they don't want to?

Or are you mind-reading?

[catmother]

38. sorry i don't have a link. it was last friday. tucker carlson was

interviewing one of the big shots in lebanon who said they were going to use the lebanese army to fight israel. tucker said "why don't you use your forces against Hizbollah -- they're the ones causing the conflict". the big shot answered "oh no, Hizbollah does good, they help the poor" and i think there was some reference to Hizbollash members being members of parliamant. now remember i may not have been quoting the exact words. i had to "paraphrase".

[Gully Foyle]

58. Interesting

"catmother sorry i don't have a link. it was last friday. tucker carlson was
interviewing one of the big shots in lebanon who said they were going to use the lebanese army to fight israel. tucker said "why don't you use your forces against Hizbollah -- they're the ones causing the conflict". the big shot answered "oh no, Hizbollah does good, they help the poor" and i think there was some reference to Hizbollash members being members of parliamant. now remember i may not have been quoting the exact words. i had to "paraphrase"."

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25050&hd=0&size=1&l=e
"The implication of Egeland’s cowardly statement seems to be that any Lebanese fighter, or Palestinian one, resisting Israel and its powerful military should stand in an open field, his rifle raised to the sky, waiting to see who fares worse in a shoot-out with an Apache helicopter or F-16 fighter jet. Hizbullah’s reluctance to conduct the war in this manner, we are supposed to infer, is proof that they are terrorists.

Egeland and Howells need reminding that Hizbullah’s fighters are not aliens recently arrived from training camps in Iran, whatever Horowitz claims. They belong to and are strongly supported by the Shiite community, nearly half the country’s population, and many other Lebanese. They have families, friends and neighbours living alongside them in the country’s south and the neighbourhoods of Beirut who believe Hizbullah is the best hope of defending their country from Israel’s regular onslaughts.

Given the indigenous nature of Hizbullah’s resistance, we should not be surprised at the lengths the Shiite militia is going to ensure their loved ones, and the Lebanese people more generally, are not put directly in danger by their combat."

Reminds me of Red Dawn.
Maybe Hizbollah does good juts like the Black Panthers and Al Capone did. Capone, and the Communists, kept soup kitchens open for the poor and unemployed. Black Panthers ran schools and fed people as well.

[catmother]

62. what does that have to do with what i heard on TV? or maybe

because it was tucker carlson who is a repub, you doubt what i heard.

[ShortnFiery]

68. I know it pisses you off, but Hezbollah does provide social services

to the poor. NO one multifaceted organization should be labeled EVIL. We are not into Black and White thinking in this forum? Otherwise the Great State Sponsored Military Killing Machines of the USA and Israel are *equally* EVIL. :(

[catmother]

73. i think it would be nice if Hezbollash limited it's activities to

providing social services.

[ShortnFiery]

79. I second that! :-) eom

[funnymanpants]

64. True

But it has a military that regulary violates human rights (see the human rights report) and helps clear land to build illegal settlements, a war crime.

It also engages in kidnappings and holds 10,000 Palestinians without charge,a practice condemned by human rights groups.


Since Israel is allowed to destroy another country because of kidnappings, would another country be allowed to do the same to Israel?

[stepnw1f]

10. "Life isn't Fair"

durrrrr

[Megahurtz]

75. I've always hated that stupid statement!

:argh:

[AlphaCentauri]

13. what? is there a winner? who?

:freak:

[catmother]

17. yes. i would like to know the answer to that question too.

[LostinVA]

43. What war??? And, Lebanon is NOT Hezbollah

Israel invaded a sovereign nation and is now seizing their land... water-rich land for the area, might I add...

No excuse for their actions. They MIGHT have been able to get away with this ten days ago, but not now. They have no moral high ground to stand on in this matter.

[funnymanpants]

54. Not according to international law

The UN, to which Israel is a signatory member, strictly forbids any country from acquring land through war.

Your statement is both illegal and imoral.

Israel regularly kidnaps people and holds 10,000 Palestinians without charge, a practice condemned by human rights groups.

Should some country attack Israel and start taking over its land?

[ladjf]

14. They will also control the flow of the river that runs through the area.

[Mojorabbit]

20. That was my first thought too

This is also a war over water

[LostinVA]

40. I know... although I;'m sure there's some "good" reason for it

Ones I'm sure some posters will fill us in on....

[malaise]

101. Because the Litani River

is not on their side and they won't stop until they control that water.

[Jacobin]

4. ....And then there will be another 'buffer zone' added to that one

When the 'settlers' move into that 'security strip' and on and on and on.

[LostinVA]

48. And the old residents are forced out....

[lumpy]

65. Sounds familiar.

Settlers nust be the forefront on acquiring territory.

[LostinVA]

71. *sigh* I know

Six decades on, and this shit is still going on... in the last place you would think it would be going on....

*sigh*

[ShortnFiery]

5. I think the Israelis are going to have to police that zone SOLO ...

I don't see anyone doing more than humanitarian aid.

IMO, they created this disaster / buffer zone, they're on the hook to keep it THEIR way.

You got what you wished for Israel. Enjoy! You are on your own. :(

[Laughing Mirror]

7. All the way up to the coveted water of the Litani River

"We have no other option."

[theHandpuppet]

87. Bingo!!

Convenient, ain't it. I could have predicted this without my crystal ball.

[sistersofmercy]

89. Big Bingo!!!!!!!!!!!!

Didn't the Lebanese block or restrict the flow a couple years ago?
I thought the exact same thing when all this started, it's about the water.

[bemildred]

33. Didn't they try this before? nt

[Zhade]

34. Yep, got their asses beat and forced out.

Although some very uninformed people insist they graciously pulled out.

:rofl:

That's like saying a rapist "withdraws" after savaging his victim and the victim fights back, taking out his eye.

[Gully Foyle]

53. Some HONEST perspective

"Cary
Place yourself and your family in Haifa for, oh, ten minutes and then tell me you empathize with Hezbollah.
The Israelis I know really don't want to be in Lebanon. They really do feel that they have no other choice in this matter, and their feelings on this are justified.
Oh, and Hezbollah is just lovely. Aren't they? There's absolutely no military reason to load up rockets with ball bearings and indiscriminantly launch them against civilian targets. They do this to kill and maim civilians.
Self defense my ass. <spits>"

Try these little known facts.
http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/07/where-exactly-were-those-israeli.html
"Where exactly were those Israeli soldiers when Hezbollah captured them?
On July 12th, the Associated Press reported "The militant group Hezbollah captured two Israeli soldiers during clashes Wednesday across the border in southern Lebanon, prompting a swift reaction from Israel, which sent ground forces into its neighbor to look for them." This is from the article Hezbollah Captures 2 Israeli Soldiers By JOSEPH PANOSSIAN , 07.12.2006, 05:41 AM

This AP news article was run by several news outlets on July 12th like ABC, CBS Forbes, The Boston Herald etc. Here are more examples of articles which mention that the Israeli soldiers were captured on the Lebanese side of the boarder and a map that shows the Lebanese town refereed to in the articles: The two Israeli soldiers were captured in Lebanon Here are two examples from those at that page:

"The Lebanese Shiite Hezbollah movement announced on Wednesday that its guerrillas have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon. "Implementing our promise to free Arab prisoners in Israeli jails, our strugglers have captured two Israeli soldiers in southern Lebanon," a statement by Hezbollah said.

"The two soldiers have already been moved to a safe place," it added. The Lebanese police said that the two soldiers were captured as they "infiltrated" into the town of Aitaa al-Chaab inside the Lebanese border."

It all started on July 12 when Israel troops were ambushed on Lebanon's side of the border with Israel. Hezbollah, which commands the Lebanese south, immediately seized on their crossing. They arrested two Israeli soldiers, killed eight Israelis and wounded over 20 in attacks inside Israeli territory. "

http://www.uruknet.info/?p=m25050&hd=0&size=1&l=e
"Israel’s immediate response was to send a tank into Lebanon in pursuit of the Hizbullah fighters (its own foolhardy violation of Lebanese sovereignty). The tank ran over a landmine, which exploded killing four soldiers inside. Another soldier died in further clashes inside Lebanon as his unit tried to retrieve the bodies.

Rather than open diplomatic channels to calm the violence down and start the process of getting its soldiers back, Israel launched bombing raids deep into Lebanese territory the same day. Given Israel’s worldview that it alone has a right to project power and fear, that might have been expected.

But the next day Israel continued its rampage across the south and into Beirut, where the airport, roads, bridges, and power stations were pummelled. We now know from reports in the US media that the Israeli army had been planning such a strike against Lebanon for at least a year.

In contrast to the image of Hizbullah frothing at the mouth to destroy Israel, its leader Hassan Nasrallah held off from serious retaliation. For the first day and a half, he limited his strikes to the northern borders areas, which have faced Hizbullah attacks in the past and are well protected.

He waited till late on June 13 before turning his guns on Haifa, even though we now know he could have targeted Israel’s third largest city from the outset. A small volley of rockets directed at Haifa caused no injuries and looked more like a warning than an escalation."

http://www.axisoflogic.com/artman/publish/article_22592.shtml
"Did you know that “the bodies of 13 Lebanese fighters were taken from Maroun al-Ras and buried in Israel to use in future negotiations over the release of Israeli prisoners”?"

So Israel violates a border. Then the dumbasses get their tank blown up. Then they overcompensate by bombing the shit out of innocent people.
Screw it, let the paid posters go read the links.
I'm sure they will have new approved talking points to use by morning.

[Cary]

56. Look at the bigger picture. . .

The Israelis will have to deal with Hezbollah sooner or later, and they are looking ahead at Iran as well. It is hard to second guess them.

"Proportion" is irrelevant.

[Gully Foyle]

61. Nope

Not hard at all.
Bushco needed a diversion.
Now it backfired on both the Us and Israel.
Dumbassed thinking at it's best.

[funnymanpants]

67. No

Hezbollah will certainly be strengthed by this cruelty on Israel's part. If you want to defeat a terrorist organization, you do it poltically. We have terrorist organization in this country, but they are weak because we don't do things like blow up the state of Idaho to root them out. Since we live in a relative democracy, terrorist groups are very weak.

Israel had a long term interest in fostering Lebanon democracy to defeat Hizbollah politically. Instead it did the opposite, strengthed them.

As far as Iran goes, you are just spouting neo-con nonsense. Israel has one of 4th most powerful military in the world. It could destroy Iran in a day. If Iran gets the nuclear bomb and dared to bomb Israel, Isarel would respond with its 200-300 thermo-nuclear weapons. The US would also join. Iran knows that.

[LostinVA]

72. The IRA's rosters exploded after "Bloody Sunday"

Many otherwise apolitical lads content with a few pints at the pub and a snog with the girls joined the IRA's ranks after seeing innocent marchers and heroic bystanders murdered in cold blood by British troops. Anyone who thinks this very thing isn't happening in the ME are naive.

Not all terrorists are born sociopaths. Some are created.

[lumpy]

82. And everyone in the area will blown

to kingdom come. Problems solved. And the rest of the world will get a whiff of radioactive comeuppence.

[Cary]

103. Not everything the neo-cons claim is untrue.

They are no more monolithic than we are and if you think we're monolithic just look at some of the abuse inflicted on me here just because I can't agree that the Israelis really wanted to invade Lebanon.

The terrorist organization in this country is a lot different than what's going on around Israel. Hezbollah has not been weakend since the Israelis pulled back. Quite the contrary, and Hezbollah has absolutely gained stature and prominence just by virtue of Israel pulling back. Is there another organization in the ME that has successfully caused Israel to pull back with violence? That is a huge feather in their cap.

Iran might not be in a position to directly attack Israel today but that doesn't mean that Iran is trying, nor does it mean that Iran can't do a lot of damage "indirectly". Israel didn't just fall into being the 4th most powerful military in the world, and it will not remain the 4th most powerful military without being proactive.

Neocons or no neocons, Iran is a huge problem that absolutely has to be dealt with and kept in check. Hezbollah absolutely cannot come out of this with a victory.

I'm sorry for the civilian casualties but you still don't explain why there are still relatively few in the face of so many refugees. Nor do you acknowledge that to a large degree these casualties are the product of Hezbollah's strategy to counter precision strikes by intermingling with the civilian population.

Of course I am simply expressing my opinion here. Usually we accept that, as I accept that your opinion is yours. I am very much a progressive and am rather chagrined at receiving the kind of hostility usually directed at me by rightists pukes.

[Megahurtz]

78. Well the Isrealis are NO saints,

and I don't know what gives you the idea that they are.

[Cary]

105. You don't know;. . .

you're just putting words in my mouth.

It isn't a matter of sainthood, which I don't believe in anyway. It's a matter of Israel's options. As I see it their choice is between bad and worse and they've opted for bad.

Unlike Hezbollah, Israel is a sovereign nation. To some extent you do have to defer to them to decide certain things regarding their sovereignty. You claim they have gone over the line. I just don't think you've made your case well enough, given Israel's circumstances.

The bottom line as I see it is that if Hezbollah wasn't provoking this, it wouldn't be happening. I'm sure Israel has poked and prodded at Hezbollah--I'd be disappointed in them if they weren't.

[lumpy]

81. Translation: Israel looking for trouble.

Thanks, your perspective and position is clarified.

[Cary]

106. Translation: You've concluded that Hezbollah is a benign, peace-loving. ..

organization with an acceptable mission. So you don't have to consider anyone else's perspective.

That's funny. All this time I thought Nasralla deemed it to be an accomplishment to kill a couple dozen Israelis every year and I've completely missed anything from him that might even remotely resemble an olive branch.

[lumpy]

74. Israeli soldiers captured in Lebanon.

This is what lead to Israeli forces bombardment of Lebanon. Granted the Israeli soldiers are being used as bargaining chips for release of prisoners being held in Israel, but the fact that the Israeli soldiers were on Lebanon soil is telling. Great excuse for Israel to go ahead with their plans to derail Lebanon. Can't understand why this info is being ignored.
Sick of all this posturing by the US government and Israel supporters, right or wrong. Clearly calls for UN action. Who else is willing to do what needs to be done, like a cease fire.

[cali]

83. virtually all

reports state that H'zbollah militia crossed into israel. In fact, H'zbollah itself has NOT denied that such was the case, but if it serves you to be totally onesided, go for it.

[lumpy]

88. "vrtually all reports state that Hizbollah

militia crossed into Israel".sez cali. AP reported to the contrary. http://representativepress.blogspot.com/2006/07/where-exactly-were-those-israeli.html

[go west young man]

97. And what of the poor Lebanese family that was blown up on a

trip to the beach before the Israeli soldiers were captured? The media has conveniently forgotten about that. Also please lets all remember Tucker Carlson is a Republican shill. He is framing the debate over there to favor his side. He could just as easily interview Israeli extremists in the government but he doesn't.

[cali]

99. If you're that

ignorant you shouldn't even be involved in this discussion: The family that the IDF killed was in Gaza. Do you have any idea of the difference between Lebanon and Palestinian Gaza?

[go west young man]

102. Simple mistake. I appreciate your rudeness when correcting me.

[bemildred]

84. Isn't the Gaza Strip enough? nt

[daleo]

85. But, the forces would have to move into the new security strip

Thus bringing them in range of the enemy now outside the new security strip. Which will mean a new expanded security strip, with forces moved into it, which will bring them in range...etc.

[umtalal]

86. People Israel is losing this war. Don't get fooled by this propganda.n/t

[Binka]

92. The Italian Press Is Covering This Quite Well

Israel is fucking blowing chunks. But they are turning the corner. Right. :sarcasm:

[umtalal]

95. It is the law of dimishing returns that Israel is facing.

They did this to themselves in thinking it will be a cake walk. THINK IRAQ.

I get your point on what this whole unfortunate affair is about.

[LostinVA]

100. Good to know my people are having TRUE freedom of the press

European coverage of the whole ME mess, especially the plight of the Palestinians, is so different form ours... so much more honest.

[Zynx]

104. How do you figure they're losing?

[damntexdem]

93. And the international force can't deploy until ...

Israel pumps out all the water. ;-)

[IndianaGreen]

94. Let me take a guess: Israel will be at the Litani River, right?

So this is a war about water after all!

Here is a brief sample of Israel's designs on the Litani and the Hasbani Rivers:

Tuesday, March 16, 1999 Published at 14:05 GMT

World: Middle East

Analysis: The politics of water

By Middle East specialist Roger Hardy



Water is the most valuable resource in the Middle East, more precious even than oil.

Scarcity of water has contributed to regional tensions and is an aggravating factor in the Arab-Israeli conflict:

Lebanon: The Lebanese have long accused Israel of having designs on the waters of the River Litani, suspecting this is one reason why the Jewish state maintains a toehold in southern Lebanon. Israel denies the charge.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/297164.stm

Friday, 2 June, 2000, 10:41 GMT 11:41 UK

Water conflict in Middle East

Fishermen haul in their nets on the Sea of Galilee. Things seem to have changed little from biblical times, but they have. These waters are a source of great tension between countries, not because they are holy, but because they are scarce.

Yitzhak Gal from the Lake Authority showed me how the waters have fallen to a critically low level.

"Five years ago, the water arrived this line," he explains.

"Today you can see the lake is lower and the shoreline is in the far."

In the summer water levels went below the danger line where it is believed that salt waters may begin to cause damage to this lake, its supplies and its ecology. Meanwhile, demand for water grows.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/764142.stm

Wednesday, 28 March, 2001, 21:48 GMT 22:48 UK

Lebanon hails 'liberation of water'

Lebanon has begun pumping water from a tributary of the River Jordan to supply a southern border village, despite opposition from Israel.

At a ceremony, government official Qablan Qablan said the opening of a pumping station on the Hasbani river was the first step towards liberating the country's water.

The pump will supply drinking water for about 200 people in the village of Wazzani, and other projects are planned.

Israeli officials have criticised the setting up of pumps on the river, which rises in southern Lebanon and flows south to feed the River Jordan, a major source of water for Israel.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/1248140.stm

Tuesday, 10 September, 2002, 17:39 GMT 18:39 UK
Israel warns of war over water



An alleged Lebanese scheme to divert water from a river feeding Israel's largest reservoir could provoke a war, Israeli Prime Minister Ariel Sharon has warned.

Israeli army radio quoted the prime minister as saying on Tuesday that the issue constituted a "casus belli", or "grounds for war".

He was addressing senior military and civilian officials after a cabinet meeting.

Lebanon opened a pumping-station on the River Hasbani in the spring of 2001 to irrigate a drought-stricken village but denies that it plans to dam the river.

The river supplies between 20 and 25% of the water flowing into the Sea of Galilee, an official at Israel's Ministry of Agriculture was quoted as saying by the French news agency AFP.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/middle_east/2249599.stm

Litani River Dispute

There has always been conflict over scarce natural resources, for instance, water. Adequate access to necessary water may be termed resource security and possible to war over. Both Lebanon and Israel see adequate supplies of water as essential to their security--and increasingly see it so. In fact, they find that there is not enough water to satisfy their wants and needs.

Therefore, there exists the possibility of aggression in order to obtain water from the Litani River. In fact, "history reveals that water has frequently provided a justification for going to war: It has been an object of military conquest, a source of economic or political strength and both a tool and a target of conflict."(8)

If the demand or need for water in the riparian region is much greater than the supply, conflict over the relatively scarce water to meet those needs is more likely. This conflict may be military.

In the Israeli-Palestinian context, water is a central ingredient, perhaps only second to land, of the wider conflict between the two sides...the water conflict is not just about water; it reaches to the recesses of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, to questions of land and annexation. Those are abnormal in a water conflict, and render the Israeli-Palestinian water conflict more complex and acute than others in the region.(9)
Israel seemingly is tempted to reach beyond its border to get access to the needed water. "Almost half of the water currently used in Israel is captured, diverted or preempted from its neighbors."(10) This is understandable, given water can be described as "Israel's vulnerable and fragile source of life."(11)

Israel is a riparian state, in part meaning that it must share a large portion of its surface water resources with neighboring countries. Control of water may be seen as integral to Israel's sovereignty, the need for which Israel might war over.(12) Historically, Israel has been interested in the Litani, and conflict with Lebanon over the Litani is more likely given this. Essentially, control of the Litani has long been a dream of Israel in hopes of establishing a greater Zion from Sinai to ancient Babylon.(13)

http://www.american.edu/ted/ice/litani.htm

NOTES

(8) Lee, James R., and Maren Brooks. "Conflict and Environment: Lebanon's Historic and Modern Nightmare." Paper for Conference on Environment & Sustainable Development in Lebanon, NGO- Private/Public Sector Partnerships Rene Moawad Foundation, Dec. 1996.

(9) Elmusa, Sharif S. The Water Issue and the Palestinian-Israeli Conflict. Information Paper Number 2. (Washington, DC: The Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine, 1993), 1, 15.

(10) Stauffer, Thomas R. Water and War in the Middle East: The Hydraulic Parameters of Conflict. Information Paper Number 5. (Washington, DC: The Center for Policy Analysis on Palestine, July 1996), 11.

(11) Amery, Hussein A. "The Litani River of Lebanon." The Geographical Review. Vol. 83, No. 3, July 1993, 232.

(12) Ibid., 233.

(13) Stauffer, 11.

[puffthemagicdragon]

98. looks like they want everything up to the Litani

seems to me like they just want to take over everything up to the Litani river. I suppose they need more room.