Chavez forges ties with Belarus

[Caution]

Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez has praised Belarus, calling it "a model social state like the one we are beginning to create".

During a visit to Minsk, he called for a strategic alliance with Belarus to counter "hegemonic" capitalism.

Mr Chavez later met President Alexander Lukashenko, accused in the West of crushing fundamental rights.

Mr Chavez is on a world tour, partly to win support for Venezuela's bid to win a seat on the UN Security Council.

From Belarus, he will travel to Russia, Qatar, Iran, Vietnam and Mali.

He is hoping to sign an arms deal in Moscow worth around $1bn (£542m), correspondents say.

Chavez forges ties with Belarus

I'll be curious to see how the Chavez fans out there view this. Belarus is indisputably one of the worst human rights abusers out there. I've remained pretty agnostic in regards to Chavez, but this has swung me pretty heavily against him.

[Redstone]

1. OK, now I'm beginning to like him less. Belarus is a very Soviet

kind of place, even 15 years after the collapse of the Soviet Union.

Choose your friends carefully, Mr Chavez...

Redstone

[rockymountaindem]

3. Heh, same time, almost the same post

except I've never been a Chavez fan to begin with.

[Redstone]

8. Well, I don't know if I'd vote for him, but the Venezuelans did.

Therefore, he's their guy, so I haven't been critical.

Until now. And it's fair; I criticize US presidents who embrace dictators, so I can criticize Venezuelan presidents who do the same.

Redstone

[SensibleAmerican]

38. Well, the issue is whether Chavez is suppressing the opposition

from criticizing the government. Saddam Hussein was elected as well, but opposition candidates could not run and those who voted for the opposition would face certain torture.

Hugo Chavez does not fit into the same category as Saddam Hussein or Kin Jong Il, but he does suppress the opposition by not affording the rights of freedom of speech and press.

[eridani]

63. Jeebus! Get real!

The entire Venezuelan press is fawking OWNED by the opposition, and bashes Chavez on a daily basis.

[stepnw1f]

93. Right Wing Talking Points

get real... we know better here.

[w4rma]

44. This is all just diplomatic speak. What he's already done in Venezuela

is better than what most of the world has. He's not going to come out and say "I'm better than you" or any BS like that. He's going to say nice things about them and their government while visiting. Particularly since he wants their help.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

82. BEE EYE ANN GEE OH! -nt

[bennywhale]

66. The last europena dictator

He murders journalists, lovely chap

[TheLastMohican]

69. Belorus is conducting its own national policy

which is not exactly in line with the Bushbots globalization agenda. Cry me a river!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

73. Yes. A national policy of repression and civil rights violations.

It has nothing to do with Bush. Jesus, not everything in the world revolves around Bush.

[ButterflyBlood]

90. Finally some get this:

not everything in the world revolves around Bush.

As if Bush disliking a Stalinist is enough reason to back him.

[rockymountaindem]

2. Chavez seems to be reaching out to whoever will deal with him

starting with the countries who are just glad to see someone knocking on their door, no matter who it is. I guess he figures Belarus won't turn him away. That said, Belarus has a horrible human rights record and I too will be interested in seeing how the Chavez supporters are going to rationalize this. This definitely doesn't reflect well on Chavez, who I already don't like.

I read on wikipedia that the KGB still operates in Belarus under the same name and insignia. Belarus isn't even pretending to move out of the Soviet era.

[panader0]

7. "Horrible human rights record" who does that sound like?

Who is the biggest human rights abuser on the earth? bush...........

[Caution]

12. Are you honestly going to try to defend Lukashenko?

Really? In this case if you still want to stick by Chavez I would think you might be better off saying he is making a mistake, because no one who actually thinks that Chavez is a supporter of human rights could possibly defend someone like Lukashenko.

But feel free to try if you think it's necessary for whatever reason.

[gorbal]

17. The thing that bugs me the most about Chavez is with who he associates

I mean, Iran and Belarus?

I still like him, but I wish people would talk more about the other new facinating Latin American leaders and not put all their apples in one basket, in terms of a good example of left wing politics anyway.

:)

[davidinalameda]

15. uh no

it's China

[bennywhale]

67. Lukashenko is a nasty bastard

who has journalists beheaded. Associating with such a dinasoaur dictator is not gone win chavez any friends.

What an idiot

[TheLastMohican]

70. What are you talking about?

Link please. And "dinasour dictator" is actually enjoying 65% approval rating of his people, so he says to Bush "up yours, arsehole".

[bennywhale]

72. Read this from 'Journalists without borders'

Just because someone opposes Bush don't make them a nice guy. I'm from europe and no a little bit about this. Approval ratings???? conducted in a country of fear. He also won the election. (although he did imprison, kill, 'dissapear' and beat the shit out of his opponents)

This guy is a brutal dictator and the last scurge of european people

http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=6500

[ButterflyBlood]

92. Right, we know how fair polls are in dictatorships

I heard Saddam had an approval rating over 99%.

[Tellurian]

19. Chavez, might think he has an ally in Belarus..

Wasn't it Lukashenko who said he would freeze any assets held there belonging to the Bush/Cheney team?

I'm also thinking Chavez is traveling with a hefty price on his head for his removal from

the living...

[whistle]

4. Hugo Chavez seems to be making all the right (that is left) connections

...looks like he my be Fidel Castro's replacement in the western hemisphere. When do you think Bush will set up a Venezuelan blockade?

[Redstone]

10. The government in Belarus is hardly left-wing. Or progressive.

They're almost the last of the Soviet-style thugocracy.

They couldn't give a red rat's ass about the people of Belarus.

Redstone

[bennywhale]

68. Lukashenko is apower hoarding dictator, he's no more on the

Left (or right) than any of the lunatics running some ex-soviet central asian countries.

He's a corrupted tyrant who seeks power for its own sake and has journalists beheaded

[panader0]

5. Chavez will continue to be a force

Countries are lining up to oppose the US because of bushco politics. Things will change when a decent Dem takes power. Nobody likes being pushed around, especially by a dunce. We need a president with world vision. We're all one on this planet. No bullies allowed.

[rockymountaindem]

6. If being against oppressive Soviet style regimes like Belarus' is wrong

I don't wanna be right.

[Redstone]

9. Concise. To the point. And well-said.

Redstone

[panader0]

11. Have you checked your rights here in the good old USA lately?

Phone taps , bank record taps, what books you checked out from the library, computer checks, Patriot Act, the list is endless. We got Soviet style down. Secret prisons, the list goes on and on.

[rockymountaindem]

13. So what you see as a poor human rights record in the US

justifies Lukashenko? Last I checked the opposition here isn't in jail or in exile. What's going on in Belarus is pretty bad.

[54anickel]

22. Hope it's not a sign of things to come. I just got the jeebies reading

the Wikipedia entry for Belarus. Some parts sound like they were written about the US under Bush. Makes one worry about what the US could become.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus

Lukashenko was quoted as saying that he has an "authoritarian ruling style" that he uses to run the country.<12> The Council of Europe has barred Belarus from membership since 1997 for undemocratic voting irregularities in the November 1996 constitutional referendum and parliament by-elections. According to the Venice Commission of the Council of Europe, Belarus's constitution is "illegal and does not respect minimum democratic standards and thus violates the principles of separation of powers and the rule of law".<13> The Belarusian government is also criticized for human rights violations and its actions against NGOs, independent journalists, national minorities and opposition politicians.<14> During the rule of the current administration in Belarus, there have been several cases of persecution, including the disappearance or death of prominent opposition leaders and independent journalists. Belarus is also one of just two nations in Europe that retains the death penalty for certain crimes (the other being Albania). In testimony to the U.S. Senate Committee on Foreign Relations, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice labeled Belarus, among seven nations, as part of the US's list of outposts of tyranny.<15> The Belarusian Foreign Ministry announced that the statement from Secretary Rice "are a poor basis" to form a good Belarusian-American alliance.<16>

Belarus has been described as "a small-scale Soviet Union at its finest period".<17>

[Caution]

14. And what does that have to do with Chavez embracing Lukashenko?

Absolutely nothing as far as I can see.

[IndianaGreen]

32. Yeah, we have seen plenty of American freedom and democracy

just look at Iraq!

[rockymountaindem]

45. I don't get this

To support Chavez' new connections with Lukashenko, you're condemning the US. I don't see what we have to do with this. It's one thing to do some under-the-table dealing for arms. Chavez wouldn't be the first country to do that. It's another thing to call Lukashenko, who is a mini-Brezhnev for the 21st Century, your "friend". Why does this have anything to do with the US?

Besides, I'm hardly a cheerleader for the Iraq war. I don't see why I'm a hypocrite for calling out Chavez on this. Are you so desperate to find other opponents of Bush that you're willing to reach out to despots like Lukashenko? We can oppose Bush's policies while staying true to our own democratic (small "d") and Democratic (big "D") principles and without resorting to joining hands with the likes of Lukashenko. What's so hard about that?

[IndianaGreen]

46. The US has everything to do with Chavez going to Belarus!

The US forced Spain from selling planes to Venezuela and blocked other sales from the EU, so what did you expect Chavez to do, sit on his ass and wait for the glorious US Marines to land in Venezuela and start raping and killing little girls?

[Judi Lynn]

48. Really glad you mentioned that. I had completely forgotten Bush had

butted into that deal Venezuela was trying to transact with Spain. That was truly dirty. Venezuela knew at that time _Bush refuses to sell the replacement parts for the very planes the U.S. sold Venezuela in the past, and that it rendered its entire collection useless. Such a dirty, vicious move, and so typical of these back-stabbing idiots.

[rockymountaindem]

49. Uhhh, yeah. Like that's gonna happen...

Anyway, like I said, it's one thing to do under-the-table arms deals if that's what you feel you have to do. It's another thing to have a photo-op with someone like Lukashenko, and to call him your friend. The US sells arms all over the world, but you don't see the Prez of the Sec. of State going all over the place to close the deals in front of the cameras. If Chavez has as much left-wing integrity and love for the common people as his defenders say he does, he wouldn't be making nice with a widely-recognized dictator.

And by the way, the EU knows Lukashenko is a dictator too, so it's not like the man ended up on anybody's blacklist unfairly.

[IndianaGreen]

50. Bush is also a dictator, or haven't you noticed?

Chavez first priority is to defend his people from becoming a Latin American version of Iraq. If Chavez sleeps with Satan to get protection for his people, he has my blessings!

I wouldn't wish American "freedom and democracy" on my worst enemy!

[rockymountaindem]

52. Why the photo op?

Just answer that. I can understand the arms deal. Chavez thinks Bush is going to invade him (of course he wouldn't be just arming the people and forming a militia to help get rid of unemployment... or would he?). Fine, buy weapons if that makes you feel better, Chavez. But why the photo op? Why the handshakes? Why calling that Lukashenko dude your friend? Just explain that.

I know how this looks to you, but to reasonable people, teaming up with Europe's last dictator hardly adds to one's leftist street cred. Unless of course your idea of a good liberal is Levrenty Beria, of course.

[Judi Lynn]

53. Haven't you taken the time to read anything at all on incursions

from Colombia by armed paramilitaries into Venezuela? My God, it's been going on long enough.

DU'ers have discussed it for ages here.

Maybe you could take time to explain how forming militias would get rid of unemployment. That would be helpful, and illuminating.

[rockymountaindem]

55. Recruit the unemployed into a government militia

and pay them for that. Not complicated. Every country turns to the poor for military service.

[Judi Lynn]

56. From everything I've heard the people's militias there are voluntary.

They seem more than willing to pitch in, considering the threats against their country.

Here's information concerning a slimey incursion from Colombia we discussed a lot at D.U.:

Tuesday, July 25, 2006

Published on Monday, May 17, 2004 by the Agence France Presse
Thousands Protest Colombian Paramilitary Presence in Venezuela
Chavez to Set up 'People's Militia'

President Hugo Chavez announced his government would establish "people's militias" to counter what he called foreign interference after an alleged coup plot by Colombian paramilitaries Caracas claims was financed by Washington.

Chavez also said he would boost the strength of Venezuela's armed forces as part of a new "anti-imperialist" phase for his government.

"Each and every Venezuelan man and woman must consider themselves a soldier," said Chavez.

"Let the organization of a popular and military orientation begin from today."

The president's announcement came a week after authorities arrested 88 people described as Colombian paramilitaries holed up on property belonging to a key opposition figure.

Earlier, thousands of Chavez supporters draped in national colors marched through the streets of Caracas to protest the alleged coup plot.

Vice President Jose Vicente Rangel claimed the United States and Colombians were involved in the conspiracy.

"This march is in response to the conspiracy mounted by the Colombian oligarchy and the North American empire, but we will defeat them," Rangel said.

Rangel said the number of paramilitaries and people arrested linked to the plot uncovered last week had now risen to 120, out of 130 believed to be implicated.
(snip/...)

http://www.commondreams.org/headlines04/0517-04.htm

Victory in the War on Terrorism: Venezuelan Government Detains Colombian Paramilitaries

VICTORY IN THE WAR ON TERRORISM:
VENEZUELAN GOVERNMENT DETAINS COLOMBIAN PARAMILITARIES AND PREVENTS MAJOR TERRORIST SCHEME

By: Eva Golinger

On Sunday, May 9, 2004, the Venezuelan government captured more than 70 Colombian paramilitaries, found illegally in the outskirts of Caracas on a farm owned by the extremist opposition leader, Robert Alonso. Mr. Alonso, a naturalized Venezuelan citizen of Cuban descent, has ties to the radical Cuban American community in Miami and is the founder of the “Guarimba”, a call for Venezuelans to resort to violent civil disobedience in order to force the ouster of President Hugo Chávez. The initial arrests were just the beginning of an investigation that has led to more than 100 detentions of Colombians tied to paramilitary groups in Colombia and several Venezuelan military officers charged with treason and rebellion.

Support from the Colombian Government

Colombian President Alvaro Uribe Vélez has praised the Venezuelan government’s advance in the war on terrorism and has pledged its full support and collaboration in the capture of additional parties to the terrorist plans in Venezuela. In recent days, the Colombian government’s own investigations have revealed the involvement of the ex-director of the Cúcuta Prosecutor’s office, Ana María Flórez Silva, with paramilitaries on the Colombian-Venezuelan border. Specifically, the Colombian government possesses audio-tapes of intercepted conversations that evidence how the Cúcuta Prosecutor’s office facilitated illegal activities on the Colombian-Border that may have permitted the influx of paramilitaries into Venezuela.

According to investigations by the Venezuelan government, the paramilitary scheme was orchestrated in part by three known paramilitary leaders from the Norte de Santander State, of which Cúcuta is the capital city. José Ernesto Ayala, a/k/a “Lucas”; Rafael Antonio Omaña, a/k/a “Comandante Richard”; and Jefferson Gutiérrez, a/k/a “Comandante Jefferson” are the leaders thought to have directed the paramilitary infiltration from Colombia into Venezuela. Per the Colombian government’s investigations, it appears highly probable that these individuals were able to carry out the plans against the Venezuelan government with the assistance from the Cúcuta Prosecutor’s office and other corrupt law enforcement agencies in the State that are currently under investigation. The accused ex-director of the Cúcuta office, Ana María Flórez Silva, fled to Miami as soon as the current scandal became public.

Revelations

It is widely known in Colombian that paramilitary groups in the Norte de Santander State obtain their primary financing from gasoline and that they have been fighting to acquire a monopoly on the oil business prospering on the Colombian-Venezuelan border. The Colombian newspaper, El Espectador, on May 17, 2004, reported that the paramilitary infiltration into Venezuela had three layers: at the top of the hierarchy are the paramilitary leaders named above, followed by a second-tier group of individuals with some military experience and finally, at the lower level are the subjects recruited primarily from Cúcuta, some through deceitful means, to enter into Venezuela. This last group is the focus of the recent detentions in Venezuela.
(snip/...)

http://www.embavenez-us.org/news.php?nid=158

[rockymountaindem]

57. I think these days every western military is voluntary

But that doesn't stop the recruiters from searching specifically among those whose standard of living is below average. These people are paid, according to the Seattle Times:

http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2002941283_venezuela20.html

I don't want this to stray from topic though. If Chavez were the leftist he and his supporters claim he is, he wouldn't make such a public appearance with Lukashenko. This is the equivalent of Castro shaking hands with Fransisco Franco. That didn't happen, because those two guys actually stood for something (communism and fascism). I continue to contend that if Chavez really stood for what he claims, he wouldn't make such a splash with an oppressive dictator. At best this makes Chavez a hypocrite, at worst it makes him an enabler for an eastern-European dictator. Lie down with Lukashenko, get up with fleas.

[Judi Lynn]

58. It has always been my impression whenever heads of state have meetings

there are photo ops, and it is completely public. Would you have him take a cab and meet him in a dive somewhere? At a table in the corner in the back in the dark?

[killbotfactory]

59. He believes in the national sovereignty of nations

And, frankly, when you have an enemy like the US, you're going to need all the help you can get.

[ronnie624]

61. Very true.

Some of the posters on this thread are attempting to demonize Chavez by proclaiming him guilty by association. None of them have yet to adequately explain how having a photo taken with Alexander Lukashenko translates into human rights violations in Venezuela(or whatever elusive crime he is presumably guilty of simply by virtue of a photo op). All I hear are demands to "justify" or "rationalize" his visit and diplomatic language. Well, quite frankly, I feel no need to justify or rationalize anything. Hugo Chavez is the president of a sovereign nation and he is perfectly entitled to meet with leaders of other nations. It's as simple as that.

[muriel_volestrangler]

62. As far as I can tell, Spain is selling the planes to Venezuela

but without American technology in them.

Spain defies US on Venezuela deal

Spain has said it will go ahead with the sale of 12 military planes to Venezuela despite US objections.

However, the aircraft will be made with more expensive European parts because the US has blocked the use of its technology for Venezuela.

13 Jan, 2006

The first batch of 33 Russian helicopters arrived in Venezuela last month, and 33,000 of the 100,000 Russian Kalashnikov assault rifles that Chavez bought are expected this month. Caracas is also finalizing a deal with Spain to purchase eight military patrol boats and 10 military transport planes, and ramping up the training of a 2.5-million-member militia to fight a ``war of resistance'' against any U.S. invaders.
...
Washington already has vetoed the transfer of U.S. technology in military aircraft sold by Spain and Brazil to Venezuela.

May 15, 2006

[cliss]

43. Yes, great point.

I agree. I think we are seeing some odd alliances, some peculiar developments, but so much of this is a little bit warped reaction to Bush and his disastrous policies.

Bush is SO bad that people are scrambling to make alliances....any alliances, and maybe they're not the best ones.

It's kinda like having a bad neighbor. Your neighbor is SO bad: never mows his lawn, throws garbage all over, had a 'moat' of old junked cars around his property, burns trash in a barrel...including rotten gym shoes and you gag every Sunday because of it. He even has 2 goats which eat everything (including stuff on your property), crap all over the place and generally stink.

My parents actually had a neighbor like that once!!!

The point I'm getting at is, while your neighbor is SOOOO rotten, you start to look at your other neighbor and think...hm, he's not so bad after all...he only has 1 goat...

[Judi Lynn]

16. So where were all the right-wingers when Bush made a fast friendship

with Islam Karimov, who gained real status with the assholes of the world by BOILING his opponents?

[Caution]

18. Once again, what does this have to do with Chavez embracing Lukashenko?

Bush's actions are well-known to be completely beyond the pale in terms of human rights from anyone who is paying attention. That doesn't change the fact that Chavez, who is often held up as some great hero of the people, has embraced Lukashenko.

[IndianaGreen]

20. Let's see, what did Chavez really say?

Looks to me that Chavez is being a good guest looking for allies to provide him with the technology that he can't get out here because of US opposition to his Administration.

Published: Monday, July 24, 2006
Bylined to: RIA Novosti

Chavez says Venezuela and Belarus should engage in proactive cooperation

RIA Novosti: Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez said Monday he considered the President of Belarus to be his friend and the two countries should engage in proactive cooperation.

The outspoken South American leader is on a tour of eastern Europe -- he is due to arrive in Moscow later Monday -- in a bid to expand ties with the region, which is home to some of the world's leading defense industry plants and has considerable mineral wealth.

"I have found another friend and we will form a team," Chavez said at a meeting with his Belarusian counterpart, Alexander Lukashenko.

The Belarusian President, who like Chavez has come in for considerable criticism in Washington, in turn said his country was ready to cooperate with Venezuela.

"There are no closed issues in cooperation with Venezuela," Lukashenko said.

"I am impressed with your knowledge of the military and industrial complex, the oil and chemistry sphere and agriculture," Lukashenko said. "It offers confidence for the future of our cooperation

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=64130

Chavez, Lukashenko Cooperate


President Hugo Chavez (Venezuela)
and Alexander Lukashenko (Belarus)

Minsk, Jul 24 (Prensa Latina) President Alexander Lukashenko (Belarus)and Hugo Chavez (Venezuela) signed several cooperation agreements.

Chavez in Belarus, Signing

The document signed Monday a strategic alliance, pledging long-term support at world forums.

The accords boosts cooperation in the fields of energy, petrochemicals, science and technology, agriculture and fertilizers.

The Belarus governmental Committee for Science and Technology also signed an agreement of understanding with its counterpart from Venezuela.

Belarus and Venezuela confirmed their respect for international rights, and observance of UN role as leader and coordinator in the fulfillment of the Millennium Goals.

Prensa Latina

[Caution]

21. So Chavez chose to ally with Lukashenko.

And somehow this is OK. Keep working on justifying his decision to ally and work with one of the absolute worst abusers of human rights left in the world.

I may like some of what Chavez says, but this is absolutely reprehensible and I can't understand how anyone can possibly justify what he is doing there.

If Chavez was really the hero that some make him out to be, he would condemn Lukashenko as strongly as he condemns Bush. But instead he allies with him.

[IndianaGreen]

27. Bush won't let Chavez get what he needs out of America's allies

so Chavez has a duty to Venezuela to get what his country needs from someone else.

Back in 1960 Fidel Castro ordered jet fighters from England. The Eisenhower Administration objected and forced England to cancel the sale, even though the planes had already been paid for. Fidel then went to USSR and got MIGs instead. I thought that the US complains about Cuba getting Soviet fighters and arms sounded hypocritical, particularly in view that the US had no qualms about arming the Batista dictatorship with weapons that were used on the people of Cuba.

As Poppy Bush used to say, the enemy of my enemy is my friend. Bush is our enemy. Bush is the biggest terrorist on this planet. Bush is the greatest threat to peace since Adolf Hitler!

[Judi Lynn]

23. They really get hot about Chavez, don't they? Good grief.

One article comes out and right-wingdings already have the two Presidents conspiring to grab their plasma tvs from them, and torment their parents.

It would be far more prudent to develope a sense of perspective by WAITING for chrissakes until they actually know something about this arrangement with this country, which is one among many he has visited this year.

When we get people here so hopping mad about someone about whom they know so little, it really makes you wonder what they're up to. Kinda creepy.

[Caution]

25. This is the second time you have accused me of being rightwing

Please point out a SINGLE post of the over 3500 I have where I have given you an indication of being right wing.

It's funny how the Chavez apologists out there immediately accuse anyone who criticizes Chavez for even the most appropriate things to criticize him for (allying himself with a complete tyrant for example), of being a rightwinger.

It's also amusing how you state that those who criticize chavez know little about him. You have absolutely no idea what I do or don't know about Chavez.

Rather than engaging in ad hominem attacks, why don't you please come up with one single possible good reason that Chavez could have for even speaking with someone like Lukashenko.

I still haven't seen any of the (very few) Chavez apologists give a good reason as to why Chavez should even open diplomatic ties with a regime like that in Belarus.

[IndianaGreen]

29. Ehud Olmert speaks to Bush

Why don't you condemn Israel for being friends with the biggest war criminal since Hitler?

Your arguments ring hollow!

[Caution]

75. Once again, why don't YOU condemn Chavez for speaking with Lukashenko?

I have in fact criticized Israeli policy pretty consistently over the years. Is Chzvez so perfect in your eyes that he can do no wrong?

[IndianaGreen]

76. I won't condemn or even criticize Chavez for what he does in forging

new alliances in order to defend the people of Venezuela from US aggression. If someone like Franklin Roosevelt can meet with Stalin in order to fight Hitler, so can Chavez meet with Lukashenko in order to fight the American Hitler. Believe me, Bush has met with people far worse than the one you are complaining about.

[drduffy]

30. for sure.

plus, most of the critics focus on one issue but they ignore the subtler issues of geostrategic planning. And what must be done for necessity. The confluence of many crappy things are coming the world's way. Peak Oil, Global climate change, the fall of the dollar - the demise of empire. God knows what various powers strategize to serve their interests (and in Chavez's case, more the peoples' needs vs the corporatists, that's for sure) in these odd sorts of 'end days'.

So get real.

[SensibleAmerican]

24. Those who back Chavez are like women who date drug dealers

Both are fed up with the current state of affairs, but instead of picking an option that will improve their lot in life, they pick an option that appears glamourous but will lead to sure destruction.

[Judi Lynn]

26. How profoundly odd.

May I ask which posters at D.U. have you spotted posting romantic views of Hugo Chavez? You'd be doing us a favor.

[SensibleAmerican]

28. It's called a simile

Look it up in your 5th grade English textbook. :eyes:

[IndianaGreen]

31. No, it's called drivel

I think there is something about it in My Pet Goat.

[SensibleAmerican]

34. There's something about Hugo Chavez in "My Pet Goat"?

You surprised me.

[Sadie5]

35. Does anyone else think

that this could be a press release just to show Chavez in a bad light? Just another of *s outright lies.

[SensibleAmerican]

36. Do you believe that Chavez is not forging relations with Belarus?

If that is true, I may give your theory credence. Otherwise, you're just trying to deflect the blame from Chavez unto the free press.

And BTW, Bush did not write this article.

[Judi Lynn]

40. It's sad seeing people are still stumbling around who either DON'T KNOW

how much propaganda the right-wing idiots have employed, or don't care, or even approve. A great many DU'ers surely know about right-wing propaganda designed to further confound Republican already stupid supporters:

Bush's Contra Buddies
Peter Kornbluh

~snip~
Like Negroponte, Reich was a key player in the illicit contra war. In 1983 a CIA propaganda specialist named Walter Raymond handpicked Reich to head the new and innocuous-sounding Office of Public Diplomacy. Housed in the State Department, Reich's office actually answered directly to Raymond and to Oliver North in the White House. A General Accounting Office review showed that Reich's office repeatedly provided sole source contracts to other members of North's network, including those involved in illegal fundraising for arms. More important, a Comptroller General's review concluded that Reich's office had "engaged in prohibited, covert propaganda activities designed to influence the media and the public."

Among those activities, as revealed in declassified records, were "white propaganda" operations--having contractors plant articles in the press or influence print and TV coverage while hiding their government connection--and using US military psychological warfare personnel to engage in, as Reich put it, "persuasive communications" intended to influence public opinion.

Reich himself engaged in a crude form of "persuasive communications," personally berating media executives and harassing reporters if news coverage was not favorable to the Reagan Administration's position. When NPR's All Things Considered ran the first major investigative report on contra human rights atrocities, Reich demanded a meeting with its editors, producers and reporters, at which he informed them that his office was "monitoring" all their programs and that he considered NPR to be biased against the contras and US policy. A Washington Post stringer remembers that after a contentious briefing from Reich in Managua in which the stringer and a reporter from Newsweek questioned the truthfulness of the Administration's assertions, an article appeared in a right-wing newsletter put out by Accuracy in Media calling him a "johnny sandinista" and falsely asserting that the Nicaraguan government was providing the two reporters with prostitutes. Reich's office, the then-US Ambassador to Managua told the Post reporter, was responsible for the rumors.
(snip/...)

http://www.thenation.com/doc/20010507/kornbluh



Republican Otto Reich

[SensibleAmerican]

51. You didn't answer my question

Do you believe that Chavez is not forging relations with Belarus?

[Wednesdays]

42. Deja Vu!

This whole thing somehow made me remember posts #2 and #12 of this thread:
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x2409853

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

74. Are you seriously...

...accusing the BBC of being party to some sort of Bushco deception?

[Judi Lynn]

33. How much do you know about women who date drug dealers?

If anyone says you're a blowhard, I'll knock him/her down. Just let me know.

[DYouth]

37. Belarus is not extremely repressive

I saw an International Dateline documentary on the country's dictator.

To break up a student protest, they had police literally PUSH the protesters. They weren't shoving. They were pushing like you might get in elementary school.

I don't agree with the country's government, but it certainly isn't half as bad as any of our allies.

[Bridget Burke]

81. China is Our Best Friend....

And they got a bit rough on the students in Tienanmin Square. The USA has some pretty questionable allies.

However, Belarus & Albania are the last European countries who still practice Capital Punishment. (Just like we do.)

[RethugAssKicker]

39. Thanks for the info... Is this enough to make me do an about-face

on Chavez? Hell NO !... Chavez has done too many great things in the last few years.... But I will look into this dealing and see what really is going on!

Seems as though you do have an anti-Chavez agenda though!

[ugarte]

41. Maybe you'd prefer the US puppet who would replace Chavez

if Bush and Rumsfeld get their way.

[IndianaGreen]

47. Americans don't care about peasants being murdered in Latin America

as long as bananas and coffee are affordable.

[killbotfactory]

54. He has friendly relations with any nation that will deal with him

Maybe he has this silly notion that nations have a right to self-determination.

[ronnie624]

60. Belarus is in no position to threaten world peace.

Belarus does not bomb and invade other countries for the purpose of plunder and rapine. This small, weak nation does not dominate the world through currency hegemony, covert wars or any other form of bullying. Whatever form of human rights violations the government of Belarus is guilty of, at least they are contained within the country's borders, thus do we know where we stand with Belarus. Ultimately, the decision regarding the nature of the Belorussian government rests with the citizens of that country, not you and me.

With regard to President Chavez's visit to Belarus; What of it? Chavez is on a global diplomatic tour. One of his stops happens to be Belarus. He made some diplomatic comments. So what. Perhaps he is going to negotiate some trade agreements. All the nations on earth have relations of some sort with other nations, and many of them have questionable human rights records--Belarus and the United States leap to mind.

Do you have anything other than an attempt to slander Hugo Chavez by ascribing to him some sort of guilt by association?

[lanlady]

64. is Chavez off his rocker??

I thought Chavez was OK but not anymore. Lukashenko is an old-style Bolshevik dictator who runs his country in a perverse Soviet era time warp, locking up his opponents, crushing freedom of the press, maintaining an all-powerful KGB, and keeping his people living on a mere subsistence level. There is no justification or excuse for Chavez to cozy up to the likes of Lukashenko.

[YankmeCrankme]

65. Makes me wonder

Maybe Chavez's political move indicates a limited knowledge of Lukashenko? He hears the US decry the human rights abuse in Belarus, the same as he hears about himself from the US. Reading the US criticizisms from the article, they are very similar to those made against Chavez. Perhaps he figures that it's just the US trying to destablize and remove their leader to gain control of Belarus resources or expand their sphere of influence in that region.

It clearly doesn't make too much sense for him to embrace Lukashenko very closely. They are of different kinds and while there isn't anything wrong with working with other nations, especially when you need trading partners, but he shouldn't appear to be supporting a regime that commits the acts he himself has opposed. In his deals with Russia and China I don't remember him saying similar things about them, they seemed mostly about trade, development and investment.

[TheLastMohican]

71. What a crock of BS this thread is

Have any of you every visited Belarus to say it is oppressive dictatorship? 65% of population support Lukashenko's policy. The country last year finally caught up with the GDP of 1991 after the break up of Soviet Union, everybody else, including Russia are still catching up on the GDP they used to have. Belorus is enjoying good economic relations with EU, particularly MAZ auto giant makes 30% of world large tonnage trucks together with german MAN.
And economically speaking Belorussians are much better living then the average ukrainian or russian.
Do you guys get your news from FAUX NEWS too? It is time to drop that TV feeding garbage tube.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

77. Well, now.

I never thought I'd see the day. A Lukashenko supporter on DU.

Have any of you every visited Belarus to say it is oppressive dictatorship?

No, nor do I need to visit Iraq to know that our war there is wrong. Or North Korea to know that people there are oppressed and starving. What's your point? Are you seriously suggesting that nobody is qualified to have an opinion on this matter unless they have actually traveled to Belarus? Well, scratch the anti-war movement, then. They haven't been to Iraq, so what the fuck do they know, right?

65% of population support Lukashenko's policy.

Of course opinion polls are only really valid when the people being polled feel free to express their true opinions. That is not the case in Belarus, where opposition politicians and journalist routinely disappear or are jailed. Are you for real? Am I actually having to explain this here, on a supposedly progressive discussion forum?

Belorus is enjoying good economic relations with EU

So good, in fact, that Lukashenko is actually banned from holding assets in or traveling to any EU country. And really, what is the point of mentioning economic growth here? It has nothing to do with the topic at hand, which is Lukashenko's corruption, repression of the opposition, and general antidemocratic tendencies. There is no point in muddying the waters with this crap, unless you're suggesting that the Saudi royal family are just a swell bunch, given the economic prosperity of SA.


Do you guys get your news from FAUX NEWS too? It is time to drop that TV feeding garbage tube.

Since you are thorwing out nasty little turd-bombs like that, here are some non-Faux sources that back up nearly everything that has been said by the people in this thread who you are comparing to brain-dead freepers:

Human Rights Watch:
http://hrw.org/doc/?t=europe&c=belaru (many articles here)

Amnesty International:
http://web.amnesty.org/report2003/blr-summary-eng

Journalists Without Borders:
http://www.rsf.org/article.php3?id_article=16775

The BBC:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/116265.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/4994804.stm

I know that you will not read any of this material, but I think it's necessary to provide these links so that other people can understand why defending Lukashenko is morally repugnant.

[TheLastMohican]

79. Lukashenko doesn't have foreign assets

he laughed at that proposal. Unlike criminal ukrainian former president Kuchma whose savings were taken as a hostage, when the Orange revolution happened to push USchenko into president of Ukraine.
The west doesn't have any leverage on Belarus, neither financial nor economical, that's why EU and US is bitching so much about it. Lukashenko is a dictator no questions asked by he is the one who didn't let his country get plundered or robbed like Russia by a few filthy rich oligarch. Of course he is viewed as a threat to global corporativism and the US and EU media owned by global corporatists is pushing the "evil dictator card". Not everything is black and white.
Somehow I thought this forum was made up of more open-minded people than the usual garbage you hear from freepers.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

80. Good grief.

Lukashenko doesn't have foreign assets he laughed at that proposal.

The EU knew he didn't have any EU assets when they sanctioned him. It's what's known as a symoblic gesture.

Lukashenko is a dictator no questions asked

What in the hell are you talking about? You asked that question in the post I responded to. Perhaps this will refresh your memory:

Have any of you every visited Belarus to say it is oppressive dictatorship?

That was in your post, titled "What a crock of BS this thread is." If your position is now that Lukashenko is a dictator "no questions asked" then perhaps you should modify your original post to not ask exactly that question.

by(sic) he is the one who didn't let his country get plundered or robbed like Russia by a few filthy rich oligarch.

I have to agree with you there. He and his cronies are the only ones doing the plundering in Belarus.

Of course he is viewed as a threat to global corporativism and the US and EU media owned by global corporatists is pushing the "evil dictator card".

Do you have any evidence at all to support this? I provided links (which, as I predicted, you did not read) documenting my position on Lukashenko. And with the excpetion of the BBC links, none of it was from "US and EU media" and none of it was from organisations "owned by global corporatists." So your accusation there is either misdirected (as it does not apply to the sources I cited) or completely unprovable (seeing as you did not cite sources for your accusation.)

Not everything is black and white.

Way to muddy the waters, yet again, without providing actual information.


Somehow I thought this forum was made up of more open-minded people than the usual garbage you hear from freepers.

Yeah, I guess people 'round here aren't particularly open-minded when it comes to giving a pass to human rights abusers because they have good economic policies. Sorry 'bout that.

[TheLastMohican]

91. Suspiciosly

you sound very similar to Heritage Foundation, the neo-con think-tank. And the guy running Heritage Foundation is oops, Woolsey, the former CIA chief and one of PNACers.

http://www.heritage.org/research/features/index/countries.cfm

Look down in the table, what a fine coincidence we have Venezuela and Belarus right at the bottom of the list next to each other.
Since the neo-cons are pushing this agenda I don't buy it. I am used not to trust to PNACers, what is convenient for them sounds like an apocalypse for the rest of the world.

What is more funny in that list is that US-run Ukraine is 99 in the list, and there is no economic freedom there whatsoever, you have to bribe your way through and I did a couple of business projects there. Get ready to open your suitcase and present the nice shiny dollars. While in Belarus I did a number of projects without any bribes. Nobody is taking them.

Am I to believe that Ukraine is having more freedom because all the crooked politicians sitting there are US-controlled and therefore free?

PS. I said it before and I will say it again. Neocons are going apeshit over Belarus and Venezuela because they don't control the economy in the said countries and that is driving them crazy. In the countries where they control the economy no matter how repressive the regime in the country is, that regime is considered good folks (e.g. Ukraine, Saudi Arabia, Pakistan, Georgia).

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

102. I sound similar to the Heritage Foundation?

Well, seeing as I've said absolutely nothing about economic freedom I have no idea what the hell you are talking about. You are the one who keeps bringing economics into what was (I thought) a debate about human rights. Personally, I don't give a fuck what the Heritage Foundation says about economic freedom in Belarus or anywhere else. Economic freedom is not the same as human rights, and the Heritage Foundation is hardly an unbiased source for opinions on this matter. And yet you keep running this guilt-by-association trick, attempting to associate me and everyone else with freepers or Heritage or whoever. It appears to be your only trick. I guess HRW, etc must all be fronts for the Heritage Foundation since both organisations share a distaste for your pet tyrant. Nothing in the Heritage Foundation chart has any bearing on the NGO reports I posted. In fact, the information from the Heritage Foundation is completely irrelevant to the point that I was making.

You are the one with the obsession with economics and neoconservatives, not me. I am concerned about human rights. And you still have provided no information whatsoever that disputes any of the charges made in the reports from NGOs (which you still haven't read, or haven't comprehended.

This is getting tiresome. You refuse to post any useful information about the subject we are discussing, and you continue to tar everybody who dissents from your opinion as neoconservatives, freepers, and members of the Heritage Foundation.

I am sorry that I do not share your fondness for petulant little tyrants with nice economic policies. Perhaps if I was a traveling businessman with more concern for my own profit than the rights of other people, I might agree with you. I am sure that your business trips to these countries provide you with a far sounder foundation from which to expound on huamn rights than those of HRW, JSF, amesty, etc, etc, etc. I am sure your business in Belarus will flourish and make you rich beyond your wildest dreams. I'm looking forward to seeing a picture of you shaking hands with your business buddy, Lukashenko.

[ronnie624]

101. Your hand wringing over Belarus

is rather puzzling considering the HRW and AI reports you linked to are quite typical of reports on any number of other countries. In fact, you could scratch out the name "Belarus", insert the name of practically any other country, change some names here and there in the body of the text, and hardly anyone would know the difference.

The real target on this thread is Hugo Chavez, and you, like a number of other posters, seem willing to make fools of yourselves by grasping at the most tenuous of straws in an ongoing attempt to smear him. Many times you and the other usual suspects have leveled the most outlandish of charges against Hugo Chavez without a scintilla of evidence to support them. This time you are simply trying to smear him by association. You fool no one who possesses the ability to think autonomously.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

103. I'd be interested to have some backup on that statement.

If you read my (very few) postings about Chavez during my DU career, you will find that I actually like his policies for the most part, and my concerns are primarily about what I see as his egomania. But since I'm not 100% pro-chavez all the way, I get statements like yours re: the "usual suspects" and I suspect that my name probably appears on whatever Enemies List the rabid Chavez partisans here seem to keep, tucked away somewhere. Well, battle on, keyboard warrior. I'm sure the revolution is going just fine, thanks to your valiant efforts.

HRW and AI reports you linked to are quite typical of reports on any number of other countries.

Yes, other corrupt, repressive countries. Their report about Venezuela is especially relevant here for all the things it doesn't accuse Venezuela of doing (vs. the Belarus report, which rightly accuses Lukashenko for his actions.) I know you rabidly pro-Chavez people like nothing more than fucking around with human rights orgs with your blindingly partisan gibberish, but fortunately you have not been able to succeed in your demented quest to tar these NGOs.

The real target on this thread is Hugo Chavez

Of course it is, but as you will have noticed, nowhere in any of my posts in this thread do I mention Chavez or Venezuela. I personally don't care who Chavez befriends. He's making his bed, and eventually he'll have to lie in it, as will we for our foolish suckering around with Uzbekistan, etc.

As for that fuckwit Lukashenko, I live in Europe and have to put up with having an idiot with delusions of totalitarian grandeur in the neighbourhood.

[ronnie624]

104. Far more "backup"

than your tiresome blather about "Enemies List".

"As for that fuckwit Lukashenko, I live in Europe and have to put up with having an idiot with delusions of totalitarian grandeur in the neighbourhood."

:eyes:


Capital Minsk
53°55′N 27°33′E
Largest city Minsk
Official language(s) Belarusian, Russian
Government Republic
- President Alexander Lukashenko
- Prime Minister Sergey Sidorsky
Independence From the Soviet Union
- Declared July 27, 1990
- Established August 25, 1991
Area
- Total 207,600 km² (93rd)
80,155 sq mi
- Water (%) negligible (183 km²)<1>
Population
- 2005 est. 9,755,000 (81st)
- 1999 census 10,045,237
- Density 49/km² (146th)
127/sq mi
GDP (PPP) 2005 estimate
- Total $79.13 billion (64th)
- Per capita $7,700 (78th)
HDI (2003) 0.786 (67th) – medium
Currency rouble (BYR)
Time zone EET (UTC+2)
- Summer (DST) EEST (UTC+3)
Internet TLD .by
Calling code +375

<http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Belarus>


I'm sure you lie awake at night trembling in fear at the prospect of the Belarusian armies sweeping through Europe sacking and burning.
:sarcasm:

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

105. Thanks.

[ronnie624]

107. Typically weak. n/t

[kryckis]

78. Chavez has lost it me thinks

Lukashenko is what alot here has already said - a brutal vicious dictator! Chavez should not ally himself with that kind. I hold him in higher regards than that.

And for some reason whenever a country/dictator/leader that is opposed to Bush is critizised here, alot of poster start throwing American human rights abuses around, as if that puts matters into a whole new light.

Newsflash: Bush may be a vile leader but he is not Lukashenko. He will also be out of office in 2 years. Maybe you should count your blessings in this perspective.

[Commie Pinko Dirtbag]

83. Provided he ever "had" you in the first place.

[kryckis]

96. Chavez?

I don't really idolize political world leaders. Mainly because somewhere down the line you're then stuck with having to rationalize shit like this.

[cali]

108. Amen.

I've never idolized a "leader", and I don't intend to begin now.

[Codeine]

114. Well said.

:applause:

[stepnw1f]

94. Yuh... he had you

do you people even know when to give up?

[Fovea]

84. The remnants of the non-aligned movement

trying to get organized again.
Not all of those states are utopias, by any stretch of the imagination, but our brave coalition of the greedy includes leaders who boil people alive.

Mote vs. Beam.

[bennywhale]

85. Chavez in Russia for arms deals

Mr Chavez is beefing up his armed forces with Russian help
Venezuelan President Hugo Chavez is visiting Russia, where he is expected to sign deals to buy new fighter jets and helicopters.

The US has tried to persuade Russia not to supply weapons to Venezuela.

He will later visit Qatar, Iran, Vietnam and Mali. The planned arms deal with Russia is worth around $1bn (£542m), correspondents say.

The US has voiced concerns about it, having banned such deals with Caracas for US manufacturers.
Russia plans to deliver 30 Sukhoi Su-30 fighter jets and 30 helicopters to Venezuela. Venezuela also plans to buy 100,000 Russian-made AK-103 assault rifles and wants to set up factories on its soil to produce Kalashnikovs under licence.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5213334.stm

[Virginia Dare]

86. Is Venezuela the new Cuba?

I think they'd better start making nice with Mr. Chavez.

[ugarte]

87. The US won't sell to Venezuela or even honor old contracts

Hardly surprising Chavez went elsewhere. Yet hypocrisy must be served, so now the Bush White House must get on its soapbox to condemn Chavez, even though he has started no wars and broken no international accords.

Meanwhile, we have no problem selling top-of-the-line hardware to military dictators elsewhere, such as Musharraf in Pakistan.

[WannaJumpMyScooter]

88. He really knows how to push buttons,

don't he?

I love that guy.

[Gully Foyle]

89. Soon

Cue the Anti-Chavez government paid posters.
Dum, Dum, Dum, evil Hugo is once again showing his true colors in purchasing weapons for the defense of his people.

[ButterflyBlood]

95. Why can't people realize the entire world doesn't revolve around Bush?

Geez, people criticize Chavez for working with a Stalinist dictator and we get the argument that it doesn't matter because Bush has done worse things. How is that relevant? This reminds me of that right wing "at least we're not as bad as Saddam" talking point.

[Purveyor]

97. Venezuela, Belarus allie against 'US imperialism'

July 26, 2006

Venezuela's President Hugo Chavez said today he had forged a strategic alliance to stand up to US "imperialism" with fellow maverick Belarussian President Alexander Lukashenko.

"Our countries must keep their hands at the ready on the sword," Chavez, in ex-Soviet Belarus as part of a world tour, said on a visit to a military academy.

"After a day of intensive work, we have created a strategic alliance between our countries," he said, speaking through an interpreter. "It is absolutely vital to protect our homeland, to guard against internal and external threats."

"The jaws of imperialism and hegemonism have both us and Belarus in their grip."

---End of excerpted Reuters article---

http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/venezuela-belarus-allied-against-us-imperialism/2006/07/25/1153816186837.html

[unda cova brutha]

98. I like chavez more and more every day

[ButterflyBlood]

110. For allying with a Stalinist dictator?

That's odd.

[unda cova brutha]

111. for resisting * every chance he gets.

[ButterflyBlood]

113. So coddling Stalinist dictators is a god thing if Bush opposes them?

I hate Bush as much as anyone else here, but to simply break things down into very black and white terms of anything that opposes Bush is good is resorting to the ridiculous "enemy of my enemy is my friend" way of thinking that is quite too common among the right. We should strive to be above that. Bush is scum, Lukashenko is scum, and no decent person should associate themselves with either.

[Freedom_from_Chains]

99. So I see we have once again increased our standing in the eyes

of the world with our "conservative compassionism."

[kurth]

100. Lukashenko is a Stalinist thug

"The history of Germany is somehow a copy of Belarus's history at some point. At the time Germany was raised from the ruins thanks to a firm hand. Not everything that was connected to a certain Adolph Hitler in Germany was bad. Remember his rule in Germany. The German order had grown over centuries. Under Hitler this process reached its culmination. This is perfectly in line with our understanding of a presidential republic and of the role of its president. I want to emphasize that one man cannot be all black or all white. There are positive sides as well. Germany was once built up out of the ruins with the help of a strong presidential force. Germany was raised thanks to this strong force, thanks to the fact that the whole nation united around its leader. Today we are going through a similar period, when we have to unite around one person or group of people in order to survive, hold out and get back on our feet again." - Alexander Lukashenko

[Throd]

106. Hugo has "jumped the shark"

and is apparently crawling up it's anus.

Kim Jong Il is courageously standing up to US imperialist agression too.

[ronnie624]

109. A bizarre statement. n/t

[Judi Lynn]

112. Absolutely bizarre! Maybe it's code! n/t