U.S. troops accused of killing Iraq family (after raping daughter)

[Barrett808]

U.S. troops accused of killing Iraq family
By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer

BEIJI, Iraq - Five U.S. Army soldiers are being investigated for allegedly raping a young woman, then killing her and three members of her family in Iraq, the U.S. military said Friday.

The soldiers also allegedly burned the body of the woman they are accused of raping.

Maj. Gen. James D. Thurman, commander of coalition troops in Baghdad, had ordered a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of a family of four in Mahmoudiya, south of Baghdad, the U.S. command said. It did not elaborate.

"The entire investigation will encompass everything that could have happened that evening. We're not releasing any specifics of an ongoing investigation," said military spokesman Maj. Todd Breasseale.

"There is no indication what led soldiers to this home. The investigation just cracked open. We're just beginning to dig into the details."

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq_soldiers_investigated

[grytpype]

1. I'm sure they raped her for freedom. n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

99. Rape (and torture) are as American as apple pie (eom)

[katinmn]

156. Liberating Iraq? Kill 50k-100k or more, rape and pillage

[DoYouEverWonder]

2. How many more horror stories

will we never even know about?

This is insane.

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

93. This is insane.

Barbara Starr reported on this earlier (cnn), then a quick cut to the prez yucking it up at graceland with his photo-op, I mean guest.

Bizarre and insane.

Peace

[OKNancy]

3. Readers... you have got to read the rest of the article

this could get weird.
One looks to have confessed and the unit is the same as the kidnapped and killed soldiers
( Marines?) this month

[eowyn_of_rohan]

4. horrific...

The killings appeared to have been a "crime of opportunity," the official said. The soldiers had not been attacked by insurgents but had noticed the woman on previous patrols.

That these monsters represent us is appalling...I don't usually believe in "eye for an eye" revenge but in this case it seems only appropriate.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

69. I withdraw that last sentence

because it has to stop somewhere

[AlCzervik]

8. agreed, read the whole thing.

[IA_Seth]

36. From the article....

"The official said the killings appear to be unrelated to the kidnappings but that a soldier felt compelled to report the killings after his fellow soldiers' bodies were found."

--------------------

It's too early to speculate, but I can't help myself. This could get even more disgusting than it already is.

[Felix Mala]

40. Chapter 1018 of "What I Saw at the Sh!tStorm"

[E-Z-B]

5. "It's called a WAR, that's what happens!", said the Freeper.

Freepers disgust me.

[Julius Civitatus]

12. Some Freepers are real monsters inside

Their hatred can justify anything. Anything!

I did peek into the Yahoo forums listed at the bottom of that news item. Revolting. The freepoid nutcases over there are saying the most heinous things imaginable, including that this is all a "liberal media plot against the troops," ignoring the fact that this comes because soldiers VOLUNTARILY CONFESSED to the rape and murder of that young woman.

The most horrific right-wing posts in that forum say things like:

"So?"
"What's the problem with this?"

And variations on that. Words truly fail me to describe the revulsion this type of people make me feel. They are barbarians of the worst kind, vicious monsters hiding behind a keyboard.

[tinfoil tiaras]

155. Those people have no respect for human life

...and yet they have the gall to call themselves "pro-life"

:puke:

[lagavulin]

171. And keep in mind that one day they may be coming home again! n/t

[Tandalayo_Scheisskopf]

14. What this points to...

Is a breakdown of discipline in the ranks. A very bad thing for armies of occupation.

[roguevalley]

169. Bush has debased and tainted everyone and every organization

in this country.

[Martin Eden]

98. Yes, which is why WAR must be the last resort

whereas invading Iraq was the FIRST resort of the Bushistas.

You go into a war KNOWING this kind of shit is going to happen, which increases the MAGNITUDE OF THE CRIME of launcing this UNNECESSARY WAR.

And if they DIDN'T know that tens of thousands of innocents would die as collateral damage, as direct victims of US troops under pressure, and from sectarian/jihadi violence, then the BUSHISTAS ARE WOEFULLY INCOMPETENT & DIVORCED FROM REALITY AND SHOULD BE REMOVED FROM OFFICE.

[coalition_unwilling]

101. And brought before a War Crimes Tribunal in the Hague. (n/t)

[Briar]

141. Well said

which makes those who started this optional war just as guilty as the soldiers involved.

[annabanana]

148. That's it right there, Mr. Eden.

When they say that this kind of thing has always happened during the excesses of war we must immediately shove that particular inconvenient truth right in their faces.

[Martin Eden]

168. Inconvenient Truth

Yep.

Most freeper arguments are logical only when turned around and used against them.

My other favorite is the "flypaper" theory whereby we attracted our enemies to a battlefield of our choosing so we could fight them "over there" instead of on the streets of America. Aside from the fact that most of the insurgency is comprised of Iraqis who are fighting us only because we invaded their country, if one were to accept the flypaper argument one must abandon the argument that we are there to help the Iraqi people. Turning the streets of THEIR country into a battlefield (a country that had no hand in the 9/11 attack) has resulted in tens of thousands of civilian casualties.

THIS IS THE OPPOSITE OF A HUMANITARIAN MISSION. It is a willful choice to sacrifice innocent lives that apparently have less value than our own.

[yardwork]

196. Exactly. That's why so many of us were against this war.

War brings atrocities. Wars that involve occupying armies with no definition of "victory" bring really, really bad atrocities.

Anybody who has a basic understanding of history knows this. Of course, the Idiot in Chief brags about being a "C" student.

[Mz Pip]

220. There's an intellectually lazy

explanation if there ever was one.

But then no one ever said freepers were the brightest bulbs on this rock.

Mz Pip
:dem:

[bleedingheart]

6. The last line is chilling

the soldiers had "noticed the woman" on previous patrols...!!!!

This could very well be the case of an attractive young woman being stalked by a group of men who are occupying her country...and she is later raped and murdered along with her family!!!

I am sick.

[The Brethren]

120. the statement

tells me this was premeditated on their part. They are disgusting!

[krkaufman]

167. If true, those are dealth penalty conditions.

Premeditated murder, of both the victim and witnesses.

(Not that I agree with the death penalty.)

[bleedingheart]

170. I know there will have to be a trial and evidence collected but

if what is stated in this article turns out to be the truth...it breaks my heart.

[me b zola]

231. If these charges are true, if they are convicted...

...I think that part of their punishment should be to go to the families of the 2 tortured, dead soldiers and confess that their crimes, in all likelyhood, directly lead to the torture & deaths of their loved ones.





on edit: they were soldiers, not Marines

[Pachamama]

204. I feel sick too....rape is a war crime that occurs way too often...I just

didn't think that it would be perpetrated by our soldiers against another country's citizenry....

I am so disgusted and sick to my stomach....America and this War/Illegal Occupation of another country is descending into absolute madness and we have to get our soldiers out of there if there is any hope of saving their and our country's soul and moral compass!

:cry:

[CoffeeCat]

7. I doubt people who are viciously raped....

burned alive and killed believe that this is "progress."

This is what happens when you send young, trusting, patriotic soldiers to fight for a blatant lie. They understand it's all a lie. They know they're being used and they know they're expendable. They also know that when they die, their flag-draped coffins will be hidden--and that they will be one more tick on the casualty number.

They fully understand that they're fighting--and might probably die--for a farce.

These soldiers are whipped up into a violent froth--and taught to hate Iraqis and see them as the enemy. Meanwhile, the marketing talking point is that we're giving freedom to these people. These soldiers swim in the hypocricy. They can't reconcile it all.

We've created a bunch of savage, vengeful, jaded, fucked up people in that hell pit over there.

This is not an isolated incident. I bet for every sick crime we discover, there are hundreds that will remain secret.

Our only hope is that these soldiers start confessing and exposing the truth.

People compare Iraq to Vietnam. It sounds much worse.

[bdamomma]

23. these soldiers who committed this sick act will never

get those images out of their heads, they will have to live with those images for the rest of their lives. just makes me shake my head, these people did not do anything to us.

[PurityOfEssence]

73. You may be completely wrong

We like to think that all humans have consciences and a moral compass, but it simply isn't true. These guys may just be complete sociopaths beyond even the need to have a mechanism to justify their actions. They may be so deeply racist that she and her family were little more than Dick Cheney's farm-raised birds.

Just as many who have never served often praise the nobility of soldiers, many who have served will tell you that there are some deeply sick people in war who love killing and domination.

I wonder how this is playing in the Arab press.

[smirkymonkey]

81. I hope these "soldiers" burn in hell.

Disgusting.

[TX-RAT]

157. Wow

Tried, convicted and executed before the investigations complete,"Hell it's barely even started". Ain't America great.:sarcasm:

[xenu]

96. Sounds like they are on a power trip

Rape usually is, especially when a woman is raped to punish the fathers and undercut the fathers' authority.

[LostinVA]

138. I don't agree with you

Sociopaths don't have a conscience, they don't think what they do is wrong. I think people who do something like this are sociopaths. This isn't about combat stress, etc.... soldiers don't do this, sociopaths do. They can't be "cured."

But, I'm on your side, and agree with the sentiment!

[Critters2]

100. You're giving 'em too much credit

These are men who started out with no ethical problems with committing violence against other human beings. Then they're told they're defending "the homeland" against a monster. Then they're told that the homeland will "support" them no matter what.

They started out violent human beings. They became monsters. But it wasn't a long trip.

[SensibleAmerican]

176. What about the 150,000 soldiers who haven't committed these atrocities

No, the soldiers who did this were fucked up and they deserve to be punished, regardless of whether Bush sent them there on an ill-advised mission or not.

How many more soldiers are going to die because of these nutcases?

[cantstandbush]

192. Guess what? They won't be charged. nt

[alcibiades_mystery]

211. LOL

"This is what happens when you send young, trusting, patriotic soldiers to fight for a blatant lie."

This is what happens when you arm sociopaths and give them license. Or rather, this is what happens when your entire society switches sociopathic.

[saigon68]

212. Sociopath Killers

The military appeals to these types

I've seen lots of them in a prior life

Craven killers who carry out their tasks with zeal, with no remorse, and follow orders to the letter.

[Norquist Nemesis]

9. The piece doesn't say "when" this took place

just that it was before the recent kidnapping and killing of the two U.S. troops (plus the killing of a third at the checkpoint). If this is found true...Holy Shit! What a mess.

[OKNancy]

11. It makes my mind race

What if the townspeople knew who did the raping and killing and got in contact with the alQueda thugs or other nasty types and targeted the two guys who were killed? I could be a coincidence, but it just sounds really odd.

[shadowknows69]

17. I've had soldiers tell me

That the insurgents definitely take note of our troops and what units they're from. It will never end. The mindset in Iraq is that American blood must be spilled in vengance for Iraqi blood. These aren't foreign fighters. These are the families of people we've permanently "liberated."

[54anickel]

43. Just anecdotal, but if you search the listing of casualties for "502"

there seemed to be a large pick up in numbers starting Oct 31, 2005. None from July of '04 until then (I didn't search back any further). Could just be due to deployment times and areas. :shrug:

I search the casualty list over at antiwar. Not allowed to link to it though.

[eowyn_of_rohan]

67. and round and round it goes

Iraqi blood must be spilled in vengance for American blood must be spilled in vengance for Iraqi blood must be spilled in vengance for American blood must be spilled in vengance for Iraqi blood :puke:

[shadowknows69]

86. and the whole world goes blind

n//t

[maxrandb]

94. Yep! Our own little Palestinian/Israeli duel 8,000 miles away.

tell me. How long have the Israeli's and Palestinian's been at it?

[jwirr]

150. Since Abraham's Sons Took a Dislike of Each Other.

[xenu]

97. well

They're certainly deemed "foreign" enough and "alien" enough to be treated like dogs to be hunted and abused.

[teknomanzer]

189. Jesus! You might have connected some scary dots...

When I read your post it was like something clicked in my head. From the article it sounds like the Rape and murders happened before the two soldiers were abducted. And then you get a confession about it after the two soldier are found dead, with evidence of torture plus mutilation and beheading, which doesn't sound like hit and run insurgents - sounds more like revenge killing. perhaps the confession is related more directly to abductions... as in someone feels bad that some innocents died for someone else's crime. Its all speculation, but this is bizzare... the accused being from the same platoon as the abducted soldiers...

[leftchick]

13. FUBAR would be a good description

it seems to me that Saddam and his so called rape rooms don't compare to what the US has done. bush is such a fucking hypocrite. I wish more americans would get it! :grr:

[anarch]

21. unfortunately, more Americans are sure to get it good and hard

thanks to the Bush regime. Any vestige of moral righteousness deserted us in 2003, and the world knows it.

All of this is on their heads...I'll keep saying it: aggressive war, as was pointed out at Nuremberg, is "essentially an evil thing . . . to initiate a war of aggression . . . is not only an international crime; it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

[bdamomma]

28. I hate to say this

but we will all pay for this for many generations. How would anyone feel if someone invaded our country and dropped bombs on them??? for no good reason at all. How would you react???????

[LostinVA]

68. Agreed n/t

[coalition_unwilling]

108. More to the point: I strongly disagree with BFEE policies. But were Iraq

to invade\occupy us (under the pretext or legitimate objective of finding and removing our WMD), if they stayed one that objective had been obtained, I would probably join a domestic resistance\insurgency to an Iraqi occupation here.

[bdamomma]

24. bush has killed more people than Saddam has

[leftchick]

27. several hundred thousand more

and that is not even counting the future deaths from DU. :(

[hogwyld]

33. I hope you're referring to

Depleted Uranium, and not the the good folks here at Democratic Underground.

[leftchick]

34. of course I was.

Depleted Uranium, the gift that keeps on giving for thousands of years. :(

[Tsiyu]

46. I think the article names "March"

as the month this happened.

[Norquist Nemesis]

51. Thank you! Read it twice and still overlooked that.

:hi:

[Critters2]

102. March

according to CNN.

[leftchick]

174. NPR stated it happened in March

of this year.

[MrPrax]

10. What's the timeline here...

It mentions that they were from the same unit as the two soldiers killed, but the only hint of which happened first is this line:

The official said the killings appear to be unrelated to the kidnappings but that a soldier felt compelled to report the killings after his fellow soldiers' bodies were found.

If the massacre was done before, then it sents up the possibility that the attack might have be retaliation against that particular unit because of it. It's not like the rebels are kidnapping a lot of soldiers in the first place. I don't recall the rebels making any demands either like they usually do with kidnappings.

[leftchick]

15. exactly

it sounds like retaliation and it also means the US is fucked!

[saigon68]

209. The people will use SELF HELP to avenge their Relatives deaths

The whole country is engaged in self help

[Julius Civitatus]

29. Interesting theory. I think you may have it right

particularly since one of the soldiers confessed after his teammates were kidnapped.

[Norquist Nemesis]

52. Happened in March.

(Thanks to buddyhollysghost's keen eyes). Second paragraph.

[IndianaGreen]

65. The killing of PFCs Menchaca and Tucker took place this month

Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/21/iraq/main1738029.shtml

[MrPrax]

89. Good point...

A Regiment could be made up of thousands of people -- but the official said they were all from the same platoon so if it turns out to have elements of 'honour killings' that certainly changes the dynamics.

Perhaps the Marines could write another witty little song...

[Pachamama]

205. From which platoon/regiment/battallion was the Marine who wrote/sang the

song about making a girl get down on her knees and then killing her family?

Just wondering....I just got chills at the prospect that they could be the same unit or related in some way to the 502nd....

[IndianaGreen]

224. These guys were not Marines, they were with 101st Airborne

Movie Platoon anyone?

[Justitia]

16. They burned her body after killing her. Wonder when this happened?

Specifically, I wonder the order of this - was it before or after the kidnapping / murder of the soldiers? Are we looking at a revenge killing by either side?

In any case, it is pure depravity and I can't fucking believe that American soldiers are the perpetrators - Jesus Christ, this is a huge fucking nightmare!

How much of this will even go reported in the news? Haditha seems to simply have vanished from the news, and that was the wholesale slaughter of 2 dozen innocent people!

[Postman]

18. Could the recent "kidnapping" and killing of the 2 soldiers be retribution

for the rape and murder of this woman?

snip:

The official said the killings appear to be unrelated to the kidnappings but that a soldier felt compelled to report the killings after his fellow soldiers' bodies were found.

...why would he feel compelled to come forward if he didn't feel that maybe this was some sort of revenge killing?

This is the situation that Bush has created in Iraq. A Wild-West mentality where anything goes. Rape, drive-by shoot-em-ups, God knows what else.

This administration has been a disaster and is killing any shred of credibility this country has left.

[gWbush is Mabus]

37. EXACTLY!!!

[IA_Seth]

39. Or because these two may have come forward? n/t

[IndianaGreen]

85. The GIs were killed in June of this year, the rape was in March

that's the timeline:

[RebelOne]

59. It all points to retribution if it is true

that these soldiers were from the same squadron as those two murdered troops.

[TacticalPeek]

19. It rots from the head.

[Julius Civitatus]

20. How many "hearts and minds" did Bush win today?

Really. We have turned that country into hell on earth. Time to get out of there.

And the bastards who did this thing need to pay for their crimes. There's no excuse, NONE, for what they did. This is horrific, and makes us look even worse.

[bdamomma]

22. this is getting so sick

these guys need to come home now, raping and burning a body????? we have alot of blood on our hands.

[Pachamama]

206. Sick doesn't even begin to describe this...and clearly they sought out the

girl since it states that they had seen this girl previously on patrols and beyond the premeditated aspect of this horrific crime, it seems that they then deliberatly tried to destroy evidence (aka their DNA in her/on her) by burning her body....

We have more than a lot of blood on our hands....our country is going to pay dearly for generations to come for the crimes being committed in our names....

Not only is this sick, I'm feeling sick.... :puke:

Happy 4th of July everyone! I'm sure this is just what our founding fathers envisioned for our nation 230 years ago!

:patriot:

[IndianaGreen]

225. The American Republic died long ago

with the help of a Congress that failed to bring a President to account for his crimes and for his power grab. We now have an emperor!

[Name removed]

25. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[wicket]

26. Oh jesus christ!!!!

:puke: :puke: :puke:

:grr: :grr: :grr:

My heart aches for this poor woman and her family :cry:

[coffeenap]

30. omg...omg...omg...

k & r

[Beausoir]

31. My GOD!!!!!! How much more horrifying can this whole thing get?

Time to get U.S. troops the hell out of there.

We've killed and maimed enough innocent people.

[OKNancy]

32. Time out - kudos to this reporter

I took a break from mod duties to water some thirsty plants. I started thinking.. thank goodness for reporters and journalists. They get a lot of flak here, but I know as an LBN mod, I've come to respect 95% of them. A pat on the back to this embedded reporter.

[gWbush is Mabus]

35. lose lips sink ships shhhhh

any newspaper that prints this is a terrorist

[brentspeak]

38. I don't know what planet some of you are on, but

on MY planet the people wait for all the facts to come in, as well as an investigation and trial, before making judgements in criminal cases like this. The people on my planet also especially like to hear from those accused as well.

[OKNancy]

42. You won't find a bigger supporter on DU

or our troop bashing rules, but we aren't a jury or a court. It doesn't hurt to speculate about a news item as long as it's within DU rules. As a mod in this forum, I have been pleasantly surprised that our posters haven't made sweeping attacks on the troops as a whole in this thread. In fact most blame the administration.

Also, as far as speculation is concerned:

From the article:
However, a U.S. official close to the investigation said at least one of the soldiers, all assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment, has admitted his role and has been arrested. Two soldiers from the same regiment were slain this month when they were kidnapped at a checkpoint near Youssifiyah.

So, you have a soldier who has admitted his role. That takes it past the point of rumor, IMO.

[RangerSmith]

48. well...

"a source says" ....

none of it is known for sure just yet.

[Critters2]

105. A soldier confessed

[IndianaGreen]

151. A soldier came forward and told the story

This GI was not under investigation, he just came to the authorities and told them a story that needed to be told.

[Critters2]

180. Indeed

I stand corrected. Still, why would he tell this if it weren't true?

[TX-RAT]

162. That does it for me.

An undisclosed official says a undisclosed soldier admitted to a crime, that we've yet to see any evidence of.
Get a rope.

[redqueen]

44. Did you miss the part where the one soldier already confessed?

What, do they ignore confessions on your planet?

[Igel]

50. Did you hear the report

where 3 (or 5) anonymous sources said Rove was indicted?

That story had at least 3 anonymous sources. This one has one. The "Rove indictment" has to be a bit of much more solid reporting.

DOD always lies. Except when an anonymous source tells the truth. Unless he's lying or wrong.

Only self-righteous indignation is gained by ruminating on rumors--and newspaper sales, and political points. If the story's true, we'll get facts or not; if the story's false, the only thing that's gained is cementing in people's minds that this actually occurred.

Nothing's harmed ... except that mass delusion informs behavior. Like Saddam's being behind 9/11 being cited by some people as support for the Iraq war.

[FredScuttle]

78. You ain't seen nothin yet

I hear the soldiers' attorneys are about to release time-stamped photos proving the alleged "victim" was having a good time and was already bruised. Not to mention she had a questionable background. And the prosecution is all politically and racially motivated

:sarcasm:

[Critters2]

106. Probably dressed provocatively, too

When will girls learn. Men have needs!

[Rageneau]

133. I hear that she really didn't deserve her war medals either.

[Igel]

223. I'm not sure if you think

that a single anonymous source is sufficient for establishing guilt or not.

It raises the possibility, nothing more. But my faith in secret informers is limited.

[FredScuttle]

230. This isn't your garden variety "Law & Order" case

where a surprise twist is just around the corner.

The Army admits these soldiers were in the house. A house containing the bodies of 4 Iraqis, one of whom was raped and burned. I'm not expecting F. Lee Bailey to reveal the butler with the candlestick did it.

In any case, our speculation means not a whit compared to the retribution already being carried out. Apparently some in the area have already found the 502nd guilty and the penalty is being applied.

[redqueen]

79. So no soldier has confessed.

Good... I'm glad I heard from you guys!

Now I know the truth!

:eyes:

Like OK Nancy said... no one has gone on a troop-bashing spree.

But y'all are right... let's all walk on eggshells... and not speculate at all. That's a fantastic idea, really.

[The Stranger]

82. They don't have the same motive to lie here.

Besides, evidence doesn't stand alone, and this evidence fits with the other pieces of evidence, falling into place.

[Divine Discontent]

135. good soldiers and vets

are mostly very offended by these accusations as an attack on them. I have witnessed it in person.

there are numerous monsters over their wearing an american flag. the war is also enticing "followers" to do things they normally wouldn't do because of a disconnect from reality.

God bless that family. and not our false "freedom" we brought them. we are a screwed up country right now - thanks georgie - it's all on you! history will not be remotely kind - you are the worst "leader" we've ever known...




www.cafepress.com/warisprofitable <<<--- check it out!

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

76. Do you give the insurgents the equal benefit of the doubt?

[Critters2]

107. You say "insurgents"

I say defenders of their homeland.

[coalition_unwilling]

111. Thank you. I have really grown to hate the word "insurgents"

as it is used in the context of Iraq, because the word "insurgent" is a lie, both in what it denotes and in what it connotes.

Everyone at DU would be well-served to re-read George Orwell's seminal essay, "Politics and the English Language" on how corrupted power structures abuse language for propaganda purposes.

[Biernuts]

193. And how do you characterize the non-Iraqi terrorists/insurgents who

are not in their homelands?

[Laurab]

236. Well they wouldn't be there

had we not invaded Iraq. We invited them, they took up the invitation.

We are to blame for the whole frigging mess. And we are creating more of whatever you want to call them every minute that we're there.

[IndianaGreen]

80. In my planet, people accused of war crimes are sent to The Hague

which is where these paratroopers from the 101st Airborne belong, together with Bush, Cheney, Rumsfeld, Rice, and Saddam.

[The Stranger]

84. Oh bullshit -- wait for the military to "investigate" itself?

The only people wanting that are those who want the perpetrators to escape justice.

[IndianaGreen]

87. I am sure the Germans could have investigated themselves in 1945

for the allegations of a Jewish holocaust, but I seriously doubt it!

[jwirr]

158. Some of them are still in denial!

[IndianaGreen]

165. The Japanese are also in denial

about what they did to the Koreans.

[jasop]

219. Oh REEAAALLLYYY... ..

Tell that to all the people who were tortured in Abu Ghairab or Gitmo, or the people that are tortured on raids or any of the colateral damage victims (especially the children). Because no one let Iraq defend itself before it was condemned and found guilty of being responsible for 9/11 and having WMDs and ready to attack the US.

Pathetic..

[brentspeak]

222. What are you blathering about?

Your comparing apples with...your rear end.

[Minstrel Boy]

41. reportedly the torture of the two soldiers (graphic advisory)

included castration, and their penises were found stuffed in their mouths. (I can't find a link now, but I read last week that Fox reported the details, in a probable attempt to fire up the bloodlust.)

In the light of this story....

[ngant17]

71. sounds like Vietnam again

These types of things happened in Vietnam. Maybe that was retailation from some deranged GIs in SE Asia.

We lost Nam, we're losing Iraq every day we stay in country.

I don't suppose the population densities are as high in Iraq as in Vietnam, but it certainly seems that they will have a steady stream of internationalist Arab jihadists fighting in Iraq for many years to come, from all those adjacent Arabic-speaking countries.

[coalition_unwilling]

112. I highly recommend the 2002 film "The Quiet American," based

on G. Greene's novel by the same title. Although set in pre-65 Vietnam, I saw it shortly before we invaded Iraq and I went "Uh oh."

[LostinVA]

139. Great movie -- Brendan Fraser and Michael Caine deserved

Oscar noms.

[coalition_unwilling]

144. It's now out on DVD -- I've seen it 3-4 times since 2002 and each

time I see it I like it even more. (Similar to my reaction each time I see "Apocalypse Now" or "Full Metal Jacket," each of which I was a little cool to at their initial release.)

[ngant17]

160. I got that on DVD

Certainly one of my favorite movies of all time.

There is not the type of horror that we have discussed here, no rape & murder scenes of some poor
young Vietnamese villager, although there was that one massacre...

The end is about as good as it gets under those circumstances, bad guy (CIA) gets what was coming to him. Good guy (if you could say that) gets the girl back.

It's only a matter of time when we can expect some new movies from the Iraqi guerrilla point of view, at least some that have English subtitles.

There is no way the US can last in this place now. The whole population is going to turn against them in ways the Pentagon can't predict, it's probably happening right now, but who's gonna report it for us?

At least there was some independent journalism in Vietnam. Life expenctance of indy journalists in Iraq can probably be measure in months.

[IndianaGreen]

74. "In the light of this story..." it now makes sense!

The attack on the 3-man roadblock was not a typical insurgent attack, but a carefully planned effort to bring to justice, in a frontier sort of way, the people responsible for the rape and murders.

Remember the scene in the film Platoon when they find one of their dead comrades tied to a tree with his penis stuffed in his mouth?

[jasop]

221. self-delete

safety concerns

[progressoid]

45. C'mon people, lets stay focused.....

Star Jones was on Larry King last night!!!

[RangerSmith]

47. Sure is a lot

of presumed guilt here whenever these horror stories pop up.

If you actually do support the Troops, I'd think allowing them the "innocent until proven guilty" thing would be a consideration.

[Justitia]

49. Even when they confess to rape / murder / desecration? -eom

[RangerSmith]

55. "a source says" .... What does it hurt to give it time to play out? nt

[Justitia]

58. Or be swept under the rug, suppressed & whitewashed. It hurts EVERYBODY

including you, me, Iraqis (obviously) and US soldiers currently in the region.

If, as some speculate, the kidnapping, torture & murder of our soldiers (from the same platoon) was in retribution to this atrocity, can you NOT SEE where it behooves all of us to hurry the hell up in getting this sorted out post haste?

Letting this fester is a HUGE mistake, and these 2 soldiers may have already paid for it with their lives.

[RangerSmith]

61. OKDOKEY.... so assuming they are guilty

somehow keeps this from being swept under the rug...

hmm... apparently I was seriously mistaken when I thought I had previously heard the most idiotic rationalizations ever...:eyes:

[Justitia]

64. A soldier CONFESSED, did he just make it up? For kicks?

Why are you intentionally burying your head in the sand about this?

Cognitive dissonance?


Or do you think the Un-American Media is just pulling this out of their ass?

[redqueen]

83. No, it didn't really happen... nothing that official sources don't admit

to and sign their name to ever happened.

:sarcasm:

[LostinVA]

72. Just keep on NOT supporting the troops, because that;'s what you're doing

By making believe this may all be a mistake or a lie -- even after confessions -- YOU are not supporting the soldiers over there. Because most of them are not sociopathic rapists and murderers. The filth needs to be taken out of the ranks to protect both the safety and the reputation of the rest of the men and women over there. Making believe it's not a real problem is doing nothing but harming them..... if in no other way, then in retaliation against US soldiers. And, let em tell you this: if my family had this done to them by invading soldiers, I'd be joining the resistance so fast your head would spin....

There's critical thinking, then there's blind "allegience"...

[RangerSmith]

90. and there is innocent until proven guilty....

I've been around long enough to have seen it all.

Would I be shocked if the confession turned out to be coerced? No.

Would I be shocked if they are indeed guilty and convicted? No.

Will I support all the troops and assume innocence until proven guilty. Yes.

[IndianaGreen]

91. Will you send them to The Hague for a fair war crimes trial?

I would guess that you wouldn't want "them forners" to judge our troops, am I right? God forbid that the force our glorious troops to abide by international law.

[RangerSmith]

92. You make the classic mistake

of making an ASSumption here.

I'm all for a world court.

[Critters2]

110. DU is not a court of law

They'll be presumed innocent in court. Here, we can opine as much as we damn well please.

Ain't freedom a bitch?

[coalition_unwilling]

113. You support "all" the troops? How about Jeffrey Miller, who

went to Abu Graihb in order to "Gitmo-ize" it? He still hasn't been tried for any criminal offense. Do you still support him?

[RangerSmith]

127. I support

innocent until proven guilty across the board.

[coalition_unwilling]

132. Ah, OK. On that principle (innocent until proven guilty) I think

we can both agree. Sorry if I seemed hostile or cranky in my earlier post -- I've just gotten so sick and tired of that "support our troops" mantra which, I believe, is code for "support BFEE imperial policies and who cares about the troops"

[Pachamama]

207. Do you apply that same standard to the people being held w/out charges at

Gitmo?

:shrug:

Just wondering....

[RangerSmith]

213. Why wouldn't I? /nt

[Pachamama]

229. That's why I asked....why wouldn't you apply it to the Gitmo prisoners the

same standard of "innocent until proven guilty". And I presume that you agree too that Habeas Corpus and the right to a fair trial do too to all?

[me b zola]

233. "Why wouldn't I" believe that you are side-stepping the question?

:shrug:

[RangerSmith]

234. Just a handful

of messages up I state "I'm all for a World Court."

I'm not sidestepping anything.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

122. If you support the troops...

then you believe the one who confessed isn't lying about it, right?

[kittenpants]

123. Two soldiers referenced the incident in grief counseling

according to CNN. Why would a military grief counselor want to coerce a statement? I'm not saying that the soldiers are definitely guilty either & they're entitled to a fair trial, no question. I just don't think the military would want to set up their own as you suggest.

[RangerSmith]

131. Coercing confessions has happened before.

I'm not suggesting IT has actually happened here. Only that it could have and I lose nothing especially in regard to consistency in supporting our troops until this thing is all done.

[kittenpants]

134. If, hypothetically, the soldiers are convicted

and these allegations are proved, do you still support them at that point? Again, I know we are presuming innocence, so this is a hypothetical question.

[RangerSmith]

214. What would be left to support?

The right to a fair trial would have taken place and they wouldn't be active military...

[Critters2]

181. What would be the advantage of coercing a confession to this? n/t

[LostinVA]

137. Someone confessed -- so he is saying he's guilty

And, I'm not on a jury... I've had too many people in the military tell em too many stories about stuff like this: they've seen it all... the rapes, the beatings, the theft... everything. And, wtf would the military coerce a confession about something that MAKES THEM LOOK REALLY, REALLY BAD? They wouldn't.

I don't need to be "innocent until proven guilty."

So, RangerSmith... go on supporting these scum with sully the names of the REAL soldiers. I don't have to and I refuse to. I don't defend confessed rapists or murderers.

[Ms. Clio]

198. and what does it hurt to let people at DU talk about it?

Why work so hard to shut this conversation down?

Really reminds me of what we heard around here when the first allegations about Abu Ghraib started trickling out.

It's certain that this and many worse things are happening on a daily basis in Iraq.

[Minstrel Boy]

77. you have a remarkable capacity

"The nationalist not only does not disapprove of atrocities committed by his own side, but he has a remarkable capacity for not even hearing about them." - George Orwell

[madmusic]

95. You mean like with Whitewater? n/t

[maxrandb]

103. Hey Ranger Smith. I AM A TROOP!!!

Don't go accusing people on this board of not supporting the troops because we want to comment on a story that seems to have some legs.

No one on DU is going to sit on these Soldiers or Marines Courts Martial to render judgement.

Did you have an opinion on OJ Simpson, or did you just wait until the trial was over?

And as a troop, let me tell you, I get so "effing" pissed I can't see straight when I hear all this, "our men are hero's", "thank them for your freedom" crap. It's the same with the victims of 9/11. I'm real sorry that they died that day, but that does not automatically make them all "pure as the driven snow". Just like putting on a uniform doesn't automatically give you "Honor, Courage, and Commitment".

The bottom line here is that anyone sick enough to do something like this in the military, would also be sick enough to do it as a civilian. The war just makes it easier for them.

Jesus! Timothy McVeigh was a veteran of the first Gulf War. That doesn't mean I can't say he was sick fucking dildo-head Rush listening Freeper.

[saigon68]

208. Ranger Smith is on the wrong board

I just love it when the troop jock-sniffers come out in droves here to defend the most illogical and brutal acts by their beloved Jock Wearers.

They apparently love it when some crazed rustic greases a guy with a towel on his head or as


Congressman John Cooksey (R) Louisiana once put it



Cooksey, an arch-conservative Republican, is planning to run against Sen. Mary Landrieu, a Democrat nearing the end of her first term. Cooksey made news last week for some bone-headed comments about airport security and racial profiling in the wake of the Sept. 11 terrorist attacks.

"If I see someone comes in that's got a diaper on his head and a fan belt wrapped around the diaper on his head, that guy needs to be pulled over," Cooksey said during an interview with Louisiana Radio Network.

Cooksey's comment came last Monday, the same day that President Bush, a fellow Republican, visited an Islamic mosque and praised mainstream Islam as a religion of peace.

[Name removed]

109. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[alarimer]

218. We don't have to prresume anything of the sort

We are not a jury. As far as I am concerned, these monsters should rot in hell.

[MnFats]

53. please in the name of all that is holy say this is NOT part of a pattern..

goddamn it get us out of there.
folks i gotta say there needs to be massive demonstrations againsst this war...

[IndianaGreen]

88. You better get more Dems to support Kerry-Feingold type resolutions

in Congress, or else we have at least 2 more years of this tit-for-tat.

[catnhatnh]

54. He confessed because he felt guilty ....

...AFTER the kidnapping and mutilation of 2 men from his platoon???Sounds more like he'd rather face "justice" from our military than from the Iraqis...Same platoon...25 guys out of 135,000...yep, sounds like a coincidence to me!!!

[ljm2002]

142. ...he'd rather face "justice" from our military...

...than from the Iraqis...

Yes, that was my thought too.

As for the "innocent until proven guilty" crowd -- well, yeah. Of course. However, it was in the news this morning, so we on a political discussion board will comment. Go figure. You can bet your boots the military did not incarcerate and charge troops because nothing happened.

Just sayin'...

[HooptieWagon]

163. I'm inclined to agree with you and #142

The soldier who confessed probably didn't want to go out on patrol anymore after seeing what happened to the other rapist/murderers... figured a little brig time and court-martial was preferrable to Iraqi retribution. His "confession" was self-preservation motivated, not a guilty conscience.

[KansDem]

56. We've replaced Saddam's rape & torture with Bush's rape & torture!

I wonder if the Corporate Media will report it this way...???

[coalition_unwilling]

116. Meet the new boss, same as the old boss (n/t)

[Barrett808]

136. "Out goes the apprentice, in comes the Master."

An old Arab saying.

[IndianaGreen]

57. same platoon as the two slain soldiers, whose bodies were mutilated.

Same unit whose soldiers were tortured and beheaded, so it looks like someone was looking for the culprits. MSNBC:

Source cites confession

However, a U.S. official close to the investigation said at least one of the soldiers, all assigned to the 502nd Infantry Regiment, has admitted his role and has been arrested. Two soldiers from the same regiment were slain this month when they were kidnapped at a checkpoint near Youssifiyah.

The official said the accused soldiers were from the same platoon as the two slain soldiers, whose bodies were mutilated. He said the mutilation of the slain soldiers stirred feelings of guilt and led at least one of them to reveal the rape-slaying on June 22.

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13630952/

[Minstrel Boy]

60. And note the mutilation:

As reported by Fox, June 21:

I'm mad.

The New York Times wants Gitmo closed. The San Jose Mercury News claims that Gitmo nurtures a culture of death. The Cleveland Plain Dealer wants Gitmo closed. Journalists and editorial staffs are up in arms that there might possibly be some kind of torture occurring.

So what do they say when torture OBVIOUSLY occurs? How do they react when two U.S. servicemen — in Geneva Convention-approved uniforms — have their hearts cut out, their testicles cut off, their penises cut off and stuffed in their mouths, arms contorted and eyes gouged?

[IndianaGreen]

70. This was clearly a Vietnam-style message to the 1/502

Whether SPC Babineau, and SFCs Menchaca, or Tucker were involved or not, the fact is that they paid for the crimes committed by members of their platoon.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

104. Maybe it was the platoon that did it.

Because Babineau and Menchaca were going to talk.

[coalition_unwilling]

117. Now that's a really creepy suggestion, but not completely

outside the realm of possibility, I'll grant you.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

118. Solid motive.

Good opportunity.

[coalition_unwilling]

121. Yes, I have been waiting for the incidence of "fraggings" to

mount although when it happens we probably will only be able to infer it from the ratio of officers KIA to enlisted KIA starting to tilt towards the officers. (The U.S. military will never admit it is happening.) I haven't seen any sign of it happening yet, although I did notice in the past couple weeks that one Lt. Col and one Major died (I think I'm remembering correctly.) When I saw that a Lt. Col had been KIA, I started thinking "Hmm."

[zreosumgame]

124. repukes LOVE fragging

hell, Ann the Man was drooling at the thought of that happening to John Murtha.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

125. fragging is a whole other crime.

[zreosumgame]

126. was a reply to 104

which was a reply to 70 which has introduced the concept of the platoon trying to keep members quiet. fragging...

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

129. fragging, as I understand it...

is when a soldier kills an incompetent superior officer, usually as an attempt at self-preservation.

Killing somebody for because they're going to talk to authorities about crimes you've committed is the sort of thing the mafia does.

[IndianaGreen]

153. I think that's why the 3 of them were by themselves in that checkpoint

Babineau was called a very honorable person by his family, perhaps he or Menchaca, or both of them, had expressed disapproval of what some members of their platoon had done.

Fragging them would have brought an investigation. Putting them in a situation where they were likely to get killed, would raise no suspicion.

[ecstatic]

179. I'm starting to think this could be possible

After all, once a platoon is killing, raping, and burning evidence... the possibilities are endless on what they could do next. I could see the culture of some units shifting into a "Lord of the Flies" type situation... :shrug:

[Hissyspit]

187. "Casualties of War"

Why are we having to relearn lessons learnt already?

[IndianaGreen]

62. Now we know why PFCs Menchaca and Tucker were kidnapped and killed

The insurgents wanted to know who was responsible for the rape and murder of the family, so they attacked the 3-main roadblock manned by the same platoon:


Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, left, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore. (AP Photo/U.S. Army)

Military: At Least One GI Beheaded
Remains of Two Soldiers To Arrive In U.S. Wednesday For DNA Testing

(Page 1 of 2)WASHINGTON, June 21, 2006

(CBS/AP) At least one and possibly both of the soldiers who were mutilated and killed in Iraq last weekend was beheaded, a U.S. military official said Wednesday.

The description by the official, who was in Washington, confirmed fears that were raised by other U.S. and Iraqi officials who have said the mens' bodies showed sign of brutal treatment.

The official requested anonymity because the final report on the bodies' conditions has not been formally released.

On Tuesday, after Iraqi officials disclosed that the bodies were found, the Shura Council posted a Web statement, saying that the successor to slain Iraqi al Qaeda leader Abu Musab al-Zarqawi's had "slaughtered" the soldiers. The language in the statement, which could not be authenticated, suggested the group was saying the men were beheaded.

<snip>

Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/21/iraq/main1738029.shtml

[Prisonerohio]

63. I official Iraq is the next Vietnam. God help us all.

[norml]

202. It's getting to be more like the next Poland.

At the Polish border.



Source: Kladderadatsch, 10 September 1939

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/lehmann.htm


Caption: 1 September. The Führer and General Keitel



Text: "At the command of the Führer and Supreme Commander, the Wehrmacht took up the defense of the Reich. In accordance with their orders to resist Polish aggression, German troops crossed the German border to counterattack. Luftwaffe squadrons simultaneously attacked military targets in Poland."

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/booklet4.htm


How They Lie:
Proof of our Enemies' Malicious Propaganda
by Ernst Herbert Lehmann

http://www.calvin.edu/academic/cas/gpa/lugen0.htm

[Name removed]

66. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Barrett808]

75. BBC: US investigates new Iraq killings

The US military has opened a criminal investigation into the alleged killing of an Iraqi family in their home by US soldiers, the US military says.

The investigation began on Saturday and follows an initial military inquiry.

An unnamed official told AP news agency one of the four victims, a woman, was raped before being killed, and that five soldiers were under investigation.

The probe is the latest in a series of inquiries into alleged abuse of Iraqis by US troops.

The US Army's Criminal Investigation Command was asked to look into the incident, which took place in the area of Mahmudiya, south of Baghdad, after a preliminary military inquiry found reason to open a criminal probe, the military said.

(more)

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/5134106.stm

[Blue_Tires]

114. eh...you liberals never report the GOOD news from Iraq!

:sarcasm:

[Catherine Vincent]

115. How horrible.

Unfortunately, more of these type of atrocities will come out. These crimes happen in a war all the time. Remember the movie "Casualty of War"? It's inevitable. That is why you want to make damn sure war is necessary and in this case....it was not necessary in Iraq. I don't understand how Bush can sleep at night, I really don't.

[coalition_unwilling]

119. I highly recommend "Casualties of War" (with Sean Penn and

Michael J. Fox). For my money, it's one of the best Vietnam war movies to come out, if only because the director (Brian de Palma) manages to show briefly how the war was experienced by the victims of US aggression. (In the case of this movie, the victim is being assaulted and raped by a small group of U.S. soldiers and I remember being blown away because for about five minutes I was seeing\feeling the experience from her point of view, not the omniscient director's or the American soldiers' points of view.)

[LostinVA]

140. That's what I thought of when I read about this today n/t

[IndianaGreen]

149. I agree with LostinVA and with you!

Rather than frag someone that might snitch about the crime, as it was in "Casualties of War," let the insurgents do your dirty work for you. Brilliant!

[lpbk2713]

128. Frat prank?

I doubt it. See if Limbaugh can minimize this one.

[AzDar]

130. This is only going to get worse...TROOPS HOME NOW!!!! n/t

[IndianaGreen]

143. DUers: Here is a theory on the deaths of Babineau, Menchaca, & Tucker

Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, of Houston, left, and
Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25, of Madras, Ore.
(AP Photo/U.S. Army)

The bodies are believed to be of Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, 23, and Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25. The two soldiers disappeared after an insurgent attack at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal, 12 miles south of Baghdad, that killed another U.S. soldier.

The U.S. military recovered the bodies Tuesday in an area it said was rigged with explosives. It took troops roughly 12 hours to get to the bodies, said a second U.S. military official, who spoke on condition of anonymity because the details have yet to be released.

An Iraqi official said the Americans were tortured and killed in a "barbaric" way.

Spc. David J. Babineau, 25, was killed in the attack. The three men were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/21/iraq/main1738029.shtml

Right after the killing of Spc. Babineau and the kidnapping of Pfc. Menchaca and Pfc. Tucker, there was a lot of speculation as to why 3 GIs were by themselves manning a checkpoint at night in a very dangerous location.

What if one or more of these GIs had expressed a desire to report the rape and the murder that members of his platoon had committed, and the reason why they were sent "solo" to the checkpoint was because someone wanted them dead in order to cover up the crime?

[Barrett808]

145. You're not the first to suspect that.

I don't know if any military investigation could/would uncover such a conspiracy, however.

[IndianaGreen]

147. Everything makes sense now, the brutal deaths of the 2 GIs

and the fact that the 3 of them were by themselves manning a checkpoint in a very dangerous location, a fact that many military experts questioned at the time.

[dailykoff]

152. And it conveniently broke while W was defending Gitmo in Vienna.

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

159. Breeze54 posted an article about demands for an investigation

in Menchaca's death:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2702805#2702844

Congressman wants answers in Menchaca’s kidnapping, death
BY EMMA PEREZ-TREVIÑO
The Brownsville Herald

A senior member of the U.S. House Armed Services Committee said Monday many questions surround the slaying of Army Pfc. Kristian Menchaca and two fellow soldiers who were ambushed and kidnapped June 16 in Iraq.

And U.S. Congressman Solomon P. Ortiz wants answers.

“We want to know exactly how it happened,” said Rep. Ortiz, D-Corpus Christi, questioning the operating procedures that might have made the troops vulnerable to an ambush.

<snip>

Menchaca, a native of Brownsville and Houston, Army Pfc. Thomas L. Tucker, 25 of Madras, Ore., and Army Spc. David J. Babi-neau, 25 of Springfield, Mass. and Kentucky — a three-man security team — came under fire June 16 while manning a checkpoint at a canal crossing next to the Euphrates River south of Yusufiyah.

The three soldiers were assigned to the 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, 2nd Brigade, 101st Airborne Division, Fort Campbell, Ky.

Babineau died at the ambush site while attackers took Menchaca and Tucker to an unknown location. The soldiers were later killed them, according to a the prepared statement issued Monday.

http://www.brownsvilleherald.com/ts_comments.php?id=71429_0_10_0_C

[Marie26]

185. How horrible

"Rebels Attacked Slain US Troops in Iraq: witness"

YUSUFIYA, Iraq (Reuters) - Two slain U.S. soldiers who went missing south of Baghdad were ambushed by as many as 30 insurgents who closed in on them in vehicles and opened fire, according to people who said on Wednesday they were witnesses.

It was not possible to independently verify their accounts. The U.S. military has yet to explain how the soldiers may have been isolated in what Iraqis call "The Triangle of Death" for its frequent insurgent attacks. But two Iraqis who said they were witnesses gave similar accounts of the moments when Privates First Class Thomas Lowell Tucker, 25, and Kristian Menchaca, 23, went missing in the al Qaeda stronghold of Yusufiya, south of Baghdad, on Friday.

They said the two soldiers and a driver fell back a few hundred meters behind two other military vehicles when they came under attack at dusk. "There was one vehicle in the back of the convoy. It was very dusty. Suddenly these gunmen in Land Cruisers and Toyotas and other cars started firing at the soldiers," recalled farmer Omar Abdullah, 49, who said he was some 200 meters (yards) away.

"A lot of dust was kicked up by the cars so the soldiers in the other cars probably could not see. The gunmen killed the driver. Eventually the other two soldiers were totally outnumbered and they were taken away."

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/21/AR2006062100913.html

How was it that the other Humvees didn't notice that the 3rd car went missing? Why didn't they help? How were they able to avoid the ambush? There's something fishy there.

[IndianaGreen]

190. According to another version of the story, the 3 GIs were at a checkpoint

there was nothing about a convoy!

There is a contradiction between what the military said and the Iraqi witnesses in your story.

Like you said, no matter which version one believes, there is something fishy in here.

The two soldiers disappeared after an insurgent attack at a checkpoint by a Euphrates River canal, 12 miles south of Baghdad, that killed another U.S. soldier.

http://www.cbsnews.com/stories/2006/06/21/iraq/main1738029.shtml

[Marie26]

191. Even weirder

According to this article, the US military usually doesn't leave 3 soldiers alone at a checkpoint; instead, the soldiers will travel in convoys.

"The killings of the two privates raised questions about why such low-ranking troops were left alone, backed by a single armored Humvee, in a region Caldwell described Thursday as "an insurgent hotbed" and the most dangerous place in Iraq for U.S. forces after Baghdad and Ramadi. Even in safer areas, U.S. troops generally travel in convoys to provide support in case insurgents attack or a vehicle breaks down.

Lt. Gen. Peter Chiarelli, the commander of U.S. ground forces in Iraq, has ordered an investigation into procedures used that night. "They are looking at the entire situation," Caldwell said.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/06/20/AR2006062000242.html

So the Iraqi eyewitnesses' testimony about a convoy of Humvees seems more in line with the way the US military usually operates in Iraq. What if they weren't alone? What if they were abandoned by the convoy? I'm starting to come around to your theory, horrifying as it is.

[orleans]

146. stop the madness! stop the madness! stop the madness!!!!! n/t

[tinfoil tiaras]

154. Oh dear God

Not again. And I'm sick of people defending them with saying it was their third tour of duty or whatever. Even on your third tour of duty, you should still tell the difference between right and wrong.

Shit like this fuels the hatred even more.

[Disturbed]

161. "someone wanted them dead in order to cover up the crime?"

A reporter could find out who assigned them to their post. It was most likely their Platoon Sgt. who either got an order from his Lt. or sent them on his own. This theory is a bit far fetched yet bears follow up.

[katinmn]

166. I'm having this recurring thought about the lowering of standards

for the military because recruitment fell off.

Some of these individuals should perhaps have been in jail HERE instead of being sent over to Iraq to liberate the people.

[Solly Mack]

164. No words

just a lot of disgust

[Singular73]

172. So let me get this straight.

Timeline:


a) Woman raped, family killed, burned, etc..
b) 3 soldiers "sent out alone", and kidnapped, from same unit
c) 1 soldier from same unit, upon hearing about B, confesses to A.

Motivation? He didn't want to be the next one to "disappear".

Hmmmm...the simplest explanation is usually the correct one. I think it is unlikely these two events are uncorrelated, especially because C glues them together.

[Critters2]

182. I agree

What a noble, brave bunch of warriors!!

[Barrett808]

173. Updated AP story: GIs eyed in alleged rape, murders in Iraq

GIs eyed in alleged rape, murders in Iraq
By RYAN LENZ, Associated Press Writer

BEIJI, Iraq - A group of American soldiers in an insurgent-riddled town allegedly noticed a young Iraqi woman when on patrol and later returned to rape her, according to U.S. officials Friday. In an apparent cover-up attempt, she and three members of her family then were killed and her body was set on fire.

Five U.S. troops are being investigated, a U.S. military official told The Associated Press. It was the sixth known inquiry into alleged slayings of Iraqi civilians by U.S. troops.

The suspects in the killing, which took place in March, were from the same platoon as two soldiers kidnapped and killed south of Baghdad this month, said the official, who is close to the investigation and spoke on condition of anonymity because of the sensitivity of the case.

One soldier was arrested after admitting his role in the alleged attack on the family, the U.S. official said. The official said the rape and killings appear to have been a "crime of opportunity," noting that the soldiers had not been attacked by insurgents but had noticed the woman on previous patrols.

One of the family members they allegedly killed was a child, said a senior Army official who also requested anonymity because the investigation is ongoing. Some of the suspects allegedly burned the woman's body to cover up the attack, the U.S. official said.

(more)

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060630/ap_on_re_mi_ea/iraq

[SensibleAmerican]

175. It's hard not to support the death penalty in this case

But I'll try to stay strong.

[IndianaGreen]

177. There is no death penalty at The Hague

and that's were the culprits should be tried. At the International Crimes Court they can get a fair trial with due process, and there is no likelihood that the Army would whitewash the investigation, or limit its scope to protect the brass.

[LongTomH]

215. Actually, They would receive a better trial,

and certainly more civilized "justice" if they were tried at the Hague!

[Terran1212]

178. It seems after Haditha the media actually started caring to report

massacres of civilians.

First 3 years of the occupation? That kind of stuff was sideshow drivel.

[The Brethren]

183. If they are convicted

of rape and murder of this woman and her family, I say return them to Iraq and then let their courts decide their fate. I've already seen what our military courts hand out for sentencing in such cases...flashbacks to post Vietnam military trials involving military personal convicted on similar charges is coming to mind as well.

[Critters2]

184. Agreed

They commit the crimes there, they should be tried there, and by the Iraqi people. That's part of that "democracy" we're bringing them, isn't it?

[Marie26]

186. We've become terrorists.

It's so incredibly sickening. The US needs to get out of Iraq NOW.

[Miss Chybil]

188. If guilty, these guys are responsible for the torture and beheadings

of their fellow soldiers. I am sickened.

[BeHereNow]

194. FUBAR. FUBAR. FUBAR. NOT ONE OF THESE FUCKERS HAS A SISTER?

WHAT SORT OF PERSON DOES THIS KIND OF THING?
It was a premeditated crime. CLEARLY.
Did not one of these fucking assholes have a sister?
Could he not muster an ounce of compassion
for this girl andher family by imagining such
atrocities being committed on his own family.
Fucking lock them away forever.

And yes, no doubt the two soldiers from the
unit found with their penises in their mouths
were killed in retribution, and yes, they were sent
out on patrol at this particular location as a message
to the rest of the unit.
FUBAR.
God help us when these types return to
the streets of this country and God help the
innocent troops who will die because of their barbaric crime.
BHN

[IndianaGreen]

195. Here is the thread about PFC Menchaca's funeral

posted by partylessinOhio:



Christina Menchaca, 18, second from left, watches as the remains of her husband, Army Pfc. Kristian Menchaca, are unloaded off an airplane at the Brownsville-South Padre Island International Airport in Brownsville, Texas, Monday, June 26, 2006. Menchaca was killed recently in Irag. Menchaca's funeral is scheduled for Wednesday.

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=132x2703386

[BeHereNow]

197. No FUCKING way this kid was not set up....

He was ready to talk and the unit knew it.
The kid who confessed was afraid the same
would happen to him.
I repeat:
FUBAR
FUBAR
FUBAR
BHN

[tfj2]

199. i've sent these posts to them along w / anti-bush videos-songs..

(sunday, bloody sunday, all u zombies, i hear the voices...)i agree with all...have before the war began...problem is...we're preaching to the choir...those that need to know are not here...so i've sent these posts to them along w/.... they might not answer me either...but I know I do what I can...EVERY chance I get...STEP 1. DON'T IMMEDIATELY PISS OFF THE TARGET AUDIENCE...there's plenty of time for that...not always easy, but nothing good comes easy...????
STEP 2. take your MEDS BEFORE attempting step 1...I DO!!!!!.....

[BeHereNow]

200. uh-huh...welcome to DU...I think.

BHN, not on meds.

[tfj2]

201. MEDS ESSENTIAL.........

believe me...been preaching to the non-choir awhile...meds are DEFINITELY NEEDED!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[tfj2]

203. getting hung up on MEDS/GAY marriage is the right's job..let THEM do it!!

i'm concerned w academic shit like
LIVING WITH WAR... and world poverty/related issues (LINKS AVAILABLE ON REQUEST)..thought that was the left's job...i'm accused of being tree-hugger by most...AND I'M NOT READY TO MAKE NICE EITHER!!!!!

[54anickel]

228. Uh, sent them to whom? Hopefully not the family in the post about

the funeral of Menchaca.

Welcome to DU...

[Moderator]

210. Kick

[womanofthehills]

216. Solders planned rape/murder for a week - on Yahoo news now

Also says when they entered the house, they separated the woman from the 3 men. The family had just moved into the house. Premeditation could mean the death penalty for these solders.

Boy - this is so cold to sit around planning this.

[IndianaGreen]

227. No wonder PFCs Menchaca and Tucker had their dicks cut off

and stuffed in their mouths. This was frontier justice imposed on members of the same platoon responsible for this crimes.

The question remains, were Menchaca and Tucker set up by their own platoon because they had not played along with the perpetrators of this crime?

[xenu]

217. This is a joke

Another faceless puppet show that makes people feel good and solves nothing.

NOTHING has changed here. NOTHING.

Thanks for NOTHING.

[SlavesandBulldozers]

232. ?huh?

don't understand

[IndianaGreen]

226. UPDATE (July 1): Army: Policy violated in GIs' abductions, deaths

The question still remains, why did these 3 members of the platoon involved in the March rape and killings were left alone at a checkpoint? Someone in that platoon is stonewalling!

Army: Policy violated in GIs' abductions, deaths

Military says soldiers who were kidnapped and slain had been left alone

Updated: 8:45 a.m. ET July 1, 2006

BAGHDAD, Iraq - Three U.S. soldiers killed by insurgents south of Baghdad last month had been left alone at a checkpoint in violation of military procedure, a U.S. military spokeswoman said on Saturday.

An investigation is already under way into how the soldiers came to be on their own in an armored Humvee vehicle in an al-Qaida hotspot known as the “Triangle of Death” as night fell.

Militants abducted and killed two of them in an attack in which the third soldier also died.

“A lone vehicle does not fit standard operating procedures and does not match published guidance,” Lieutenant Colonel Michelle Martin-Hing told Reuters.

“The investigation will look at the circumstances surrounding this event and how it was that this vehicle was there by itself.”

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/13651780/

[Judi Lynn]

235. It's getting stranger, if you can believe this! Just heard on Kansas City

tv Sunday morning news, at KCMO, which is KCTV5.com, that the rape happened in March, and the murders of the soldiers, of course, only a couple of weeks ago. The newsreader said that when the men started doing stress counseling after the murders of the soldiers, THAT's when the information started coming out about the murder of the woman and her family.

The unbelievable part is this: they are claiming one soldier is responsible for having killed the woman and her family, and he was released to return home BEFORE the soldiers were murdered, and the men started stress counseling. She said that there has been a warrant issued for his arrest.

Oh, you bet. One guy who isn't even there now is responsible for having whacked all four people in this family. ANOTHER BAD APPLE, right?

I took a quick google look, but I haven't seen anything about this new story on the "killer." I'm sure it will be around soon.

The reason we didn't hear this one before is probably because they just invented it, like the stories about that young soldier they claimed shot her gun until she was out of ammunition before she was "caught and beaten," etc. at the beginning of the occupation.

[IndianaGreen]

237. Update: Ex-Soldier Charged in Killing of Iraqi Family

Ex-Soldier Charged in Killing of Iraqi Family
Coverup Is Alleged; Four Others Implicated

By Josh White
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, July 4, 2006; Page A01



A former U.S. Army soldier was charged yesterday with the rape and murder of a young Iraqi woman and the slayings of three of her family members in their home south of Baghdad in March, federal prosecutors said.

Several soldiers allegedly planned the attack over drinks after noticing the woman near the traffic checkpoint they manned in Mahmudiyah, according to a criminal complaint filed in U.S. District Court for the Western District of Kentucky. The soldiers allegedly worked out an elaborate plan to carry out the crime and then cover it up, wearing dark clothes to the home, using an AK-47 assault rifle from the house to kill the family, and allowing authorities to believe that the attack was carried out by insurgents, investigators said.

Former Pfc. Steven D. Green, 21, and other members of 1st Platoon, B Company, 1st Battalion, 502nd Infantry Regiment, allegedly carried out the crimes on March 12. Several soldiers told authorities that Green killed all four people and that he and another soldier raped the young woman.

The plan worked, at least until soldiers began discussing the incident last month while they were going through stress counseling after two other members of their platoon were captured at a checkpoint and beheaded by insurgents. Army officials began investigating the day after hearing about the events in Mahmudiyah.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/07/03/AR2006070301206.html