Presbyterian church opens door to gay clergy

[ruggerson]

Another big win for the good guys. And this is a BIG win.

http://today.reuters.com/news/newsarticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyid=2006-06-20T224406Z_01_N20195923_RTRUKOC_0_US-RELIGION-PRESBYTERIANS.xml&src=rss&rpc=22

By Verna Gates

BIRMINGHAM, Alabama (Reuters) - The largest U.S. Presbyterian Church body approved a measure on Tuesday that would open the way for the ordination of gays and lesbians under certain circumstances.

The new policy was approved on a vote of 57-43 percent among 500 church representatives at the biennial meeting of the Presbyterian Church U.S.A. It gives local church organizations more leeway in deciding if gays can be ordained as lay deacons and elders as well as clergy, provided they are faithful to the church's core values.

"It permits local governing bodies to examine candidates on a wider criterion than sexual orientation ... it allows these bodies to look at the whole person and not categorize them," said John Walton, pastor of First Presbyterian Church in New York's Greenwich Village and a member of the "Covenant Network of Presbyterians" which backed the change.

Kim Clayton Richter of the Columbia Theological Seminary in Atlanta, a member of the same group, said it's wrong to interpret the Bible literally on homosexuality.

(more)

[RevCheesehead]

1. Thank you, Jesus!!!

:woohoo:

[Kutjara]

2. Hmmm, I just had a look outside...

...and the sky doesn't appear to have fallen. Nor are lightning bolts tearing the sky. As far as I can tell, there is a complete absence of ominous portents of God's Holy Wrath anywhere in visible range. A quick check of the Weather Channel confirms the total lack of Divine Anger.

Oh well, back to work.

[Tesha]

20. Up here in New England, it's a beautiful day!

> Hmmm, I just had a look outside and the sky
> doesn't appear to have fallen.

Up here in New England, where dastardly evil
Massachusetts tempted Dog's wrath by allowing
gay marriage, it's a beautiful day! Clear and
cooler and drier than it's been for a while.


> ...confirms the total lack of Divine Anger.

Maybe the people who claim to speak for God and
what angers "him" have it exactly backwards?
Or maybe they're just full of it?

Tesha

[pelagius]

3. This is huge! Way to go, PC USA! n/t

[EFerrari]

4. I don't know this group. Does anyone? It sounds like good news. n/t

[ruggerson]

5. They're in the top four of Protestant demoninations

They are twice the size of the Episcopals and the Mormons.

I think the numbers are Baptists, then Methodists, Lutheran and then Presbyterian.

This is an enormous milestone in the history of mainstream Protestant churches in the US.

[EFerrari]

18. Thanks, ruggerson. That's awesome. n/t

[supernova]

8. I'm Presby

and yes this is wonderful news... We've argued about this for only the last 20 years. :P

[Critters2]

10. Supernova, is this a final vote

or something to be sent to presbyteries? Just curious.

[supernova]

11. It's both

It's a final Assembly vote (overall church governing body - very similar to Congress), and it's a move to devolve the issue to local districts, Presbyteries, which do the actual ordaining of ministers.

It means that a Presbytery can, if they wish, consider more than just that someone is gay, when deciding whether or not to sponsor them for the clergy. Up to now, you had to be, according to the Book of ORder, either married or maintain "chastity in singleness." GOD! how I loathe that phrase! I wish they would vote it down already.

But this is a good first step.

[Critters2]

12. I understand all of that, I think

I'm not asking about whether presbyteries ordain, but whether they have to ratify THIS measure per se. They've had to do that on similar laws in the past, and that's where they died--passed by GA, but couldn't get the requisite number of presbyteries to ratify. Have things changed somehow so that only GA needs to pass this before it goes into effect?

This would be very similar to our ordination process (UCC). Associations ordain, and each sets its own standards. The national church puts out a Manual on Ministry with suggestions for procedures, etc, but nothing in it is binding. Each association makes its own decision re: ordination.

It works for us!

[supernova]

14. See my post #13

That's how they're going to get around it.

[EFerrari]

19. Lol! Looks like the right side had more to say.

:)

[chill_wind]

22. Here, as well.

It is a very good and hopeful day at last for mainstream protestantism stepping out of the dark ages in this indeed.

[kestrel91316]

27. HUGE Protestant denomination. Major American church.

[DeepModem Mom]

6. Joining us Episcopalians today, with good news! nt

[ruggerson]

7. Pretty amazing isn't it?

Civilization inexorably moves forward on human rights issues. Sometimes it seems forever, but the history of the world shows that human rights only moves in one direction. The rightwingers are on the wrong side of history of mankind.

[DeepModem Mom]

16. Well said! nt

[Critters2]

9. And this doesn't have to be ratified by the presbyteries?

That's where these policies have been killed in the past. Is this something new in terms of parliamentary procedure, something the GA can pass unilaterally? The article doesn't say. Does anyone know?

It's good news, but there's been good news before....until the presbyteries get hold of it.

[supernova]

13. Here it is

But in what TTF member the Rev. William Stacy Johnson of Princeton Theological Seminary called "a simple and time-tested framework for staying together in times of conflict," the authoritative interpretation harkens back to the Adopting Act of 1729 in stating: "Ordaining and installing bodies, acting as corporate expressions of the church, have the responsibility to determine their membership by applying these standards to those elected to office."

The 1729 act allowed ordination candidates to declare a "scruple" against any matter of church doctrine (then the Westminster Confession and Catechism), with the ordaining body determining if the scruple constituted "a departure from scriptural and constitutional standards for fitness for office" and "a failure to adhere to the essentials of the Reformed faith and polity."

The authoritative interpretation approved today borrows that language.

http://www.pcusa.org/ga217/newsandphotos/ga06097.htm

[Critters2]

15. Yep, this is what I was looking for...

" A subsequent motion to refer the tandem proposals to presbyteries for further discussion and comment also failed, 234-281."

This will work better than the moratorium or any other attempts at stopping the arguments. Well done, my Reformed siblings!

[ismnotwasm]

17. Awesome

I thought it was the same Episcopalian thread. This is definitely a good news day. Another step forword.

[IronLionZion]

21. It's great to see Christians act in the spirit of Jesus Christ

So now we have the Episcopalians, Presbyterians, United Church of Christ,...

Good for them.

How long until the Catholics get on board? We already have gay priests!


I've always believed that if they lighten up on celibacy and stuff, we'll have many more good people considering the priesthood. Now people who want to have a family can be deacons, but not priests.

[peaches2003]

23. You can be Christian and a Liberal

We are former Methodists and now Presbyterian in Georgia. Yes, it is possible to be a Christian and a Liberal. It always upsets me on here that so many posters think all Christians are neanderthal fundies. Not so. We have a wonderful Presby church here in the Atlanta area where the majority are liberals and openly anti-Bush and all he stands for!

[bleedingheart]

24. actually people who do follow Christ's teachings are liberals

it is those who talk the talk but do not walk the walk that are neanderthals...

[w4rma]

25. Wow, that's really great. (nt)

[kestrel91316]

26. Now I don't have to be embarrassed to have been raised

nominally Presbyterian.............

I was a little worried that they had been leaning fundie in recent years. Good to see common sense and Christian values prevailing.

[usedtobesick]

28. My mother was the only person in her Presb. congregation to support

ordination of gays and lesbians. After the vote, her minister pulled her aside and asked, "Are we going to lose you?" Sadly, no, as her church is probably the most progressive church in her small town.

This was in a very small town in Michegan. But it gives me hope--if the deep south can vote to allow gays and lesbians to serve in the pulpit, then northern small town America may not be far behind.

Here's hoping, anyway! K&R'd.