France fined for deporting Jews

[IndianaGreen]

France fined for deporting Jews

Last Updated: Wednesday, 7 June 2006, 03:35 GMT 04:35 UK

France's government and state railways have been ordered to pay compensation for deporting Jews during World War II.

The case was brought by people whose relatives were taken by train to a transit camp at Drancy near Paris during the Nazi occupation of France.

More than 75,000 French Jews were transported from the camp to death camps in Germany.

The court found that the French state and the rail company, SNCF, had been complicit in crimes against humanity.

The government and SNCF have been ordered to pay compensation of 60,000 euros ($80,000, £43,000) to the family.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/europe/5054398.stm

[tocqueville]

1. Arno Klarsfeld says the ruling is unfounded and preposterous

Arno is a leading Israeli lawyer, representing the SNCF, and son of the Nazi hunter Serge Klarsfeld.

For those who understand French his motives are here

http://www.lemonde.fr/web/article/0,1-0@2-3232,36-779013@51-780333,0.html

the ruling comes from the New York district court

[IndianaGreen]

2. The claim that the railroads were under Nazi control won't wash

Jews were rounded up by Frenchmen wanting to score brownie points with the Germans, just as they were rounded up by other collaborators in Occupied Europe. They should all be held accountable, and the companies that profited from the Third Reich, many of which are still in business today, should be required to pay compensation to the descendants of the victims.

[tocqueville]

4. as Klarsfeld says :

1) the railroads were considered as German property
2) no money was payed by the Germans to the SNCF
3) if participation under coercion is considered as a crime, everybody is a culprit under any circumstances

in that case practically all Americans that have participated to send material to the troops in Iraq (an illegal war) could be considered as war criminals - and in the later case, there isn't even coercion. Not to talk about all the CIA harbouring or covering of war criminals like Eichmann.

Even if there were Frenchmen that "scored brownie points" there were plenty of others that - risking their lives -worked to save Jews (Israel puts France nr 2 on the the list "among the righteous" for saved Jewish lives) and among them people from the SNCF.

so I'd be more cautious before passing sweeping condemnations of others. And knowing the background of Arno Klarsfeld, you can hardly accuse him to be biased in that case. He wouldn't have taken it if he thought the SNCF
wasn't innocent.

[Igel]

9. There's something to be said that

the surrender and complicity of the Vichy might possibly be seen as abetting the German endeavor.

They kept their country mostly intact, but at the cost of cooperation. Their leaders made a decision: slowing down the Germans and necessitating occupation wasn't worth French lives; instead, giving free passage to German forces and willingly cooperating was ok.

Rounding up the Jews as victims was part of the sacrifice the Vichy French government decided was acceptable.

(And yes, that is a pun: 'holocaust' is a borrowing for what many English translations of the Old Testament/Torah have as 'whole burnt offering'.)

[burrowowl]

3. Thanks for link!

[Bassic]

5. Merci pour le lien

Putain, mais c'est vraiment n'importe quoi cette histoire. Et qu'est-ce qu'une cour de New-York a à voir dans cette affaire?

[saigon68]

6. Et qu'est-ce qu'une cour de New-York a à voir dans cette affaire?

Seulement Dieu sait

[tocqueville]

7. probablement parce qu'une cour française serait

rapidement jugée incompétente (ou se jugerait incompétente) vu la difficulté à rester impartial ou parce que la plainte n'est pas recevable suivant la législation française.

ce n'est pas la première fois que des gens en France saisissent des cours américaines pour obtenir des dommages et intérêts quand la plainte n'est pas recevable en France ou parce que la rétribution serait trop faible. Par exemple il y a eu des procès pour des accidents d'avion, catastrophes maritimes etc...

Par contre je ne sais pas comment la peine serait applicable si le condamné refuse. J'imagine que la cour pourrait demander à un pays étranger de saisir des avoirs de cette compagnie, mais ce n'est pas sûr que le pays le fasse. Il y a eu des tentatives de saisie de bateaux ou avions russes pour un contentieux entre la Suisse et la Russie. Mais la plupart du temps cela ne mène à rien.

[Bassic]

8. Ben justement, c'est ce que je me disais.

En théorie, une cour américaine n'a aucun pouvoir en France non? Et sérieusement, où est-ce qu'ils vont trouver quelqu'un qui serait prêt à saisir une compagnie française à la lumière d'un jugement américain? D'autant plus que les relations entre la France et les États-Unis ne sont pas à leur meilleur (ni à leur pire, mais quand même) depuis quelques années.

Je trouves cette histoire complètement ridicule. Je m'amuses à imaginer le tollé si un truc pareil se passait avec une compagnie québécoise.