Marines: (Haditha) Allegations undercut us

[sabra]

http://www.marinecorpstimes.com/story.php?f=1-292925-1837968.php

Marines: Allegations undercut us


RAMADI, Iraq — Allegations that Marines killed civilians in the western Iraqi town of Hadithah last year could undo efforts to win the cooperation of locals in the volatile Anbar province, some Marines say.

“All it does is make our jobs harder out here,” said Capt. Andrew Del Gaudio, commander of Kilo Company, 3rd Battalion, 8th Marine Regiment. “Every Iraqi will assume Marines will act like that. It’s a perception that in this part of the world is hard to overcome.”

...

Del Gaudio said he made a tough call after a roadside bomb killed four of his men in April. While securing the scene, he was shot at by a machine gun in a follow-up attack. When he aimed his weapon to return fire, he saw that the gunmen had a line of children standing in front of them and two men filming with video cameras. He held fire until the children moved out of the way but was shot in his hand, which was only inches from his face.

“Restraint almost cost me my life,” he said.

[Critters2]

1. This is the propaganda they're preparing to fight this thing

I saw this last night on CNN, when they interviewed the brother of Miguel Terrazas...the party line apparently, is that they have to shoot children because insurgents hide behind them. It still doesn't explain why they went into houses and lined people up execution-style, or made those men get out of the taxi.

We have to hold their feet to the fire, and not let them get away with this. It's cler that the talking points are circulating. They're trying to justify shooting children and blind old men while they're praying.

Disgusting.

[The_Casual_Observer]

8. The poor fellow looked mentally disabled. I don't know why

his opinion was thought to have any value.

[Critters2]

9. I hadn't thought about it, but now that you mention it....

either way, it was clear that he'd been coached as to what to say. His family is "outraged" that his brother isn't being allowed to rest in peace. Please. Tell it to the families of those murdered in your brother's name, pal. :eyes:

[cantstandbush]

31. "Allegations" undercut them? How about "actions" undercut them?

Everything we say when the US is charged with some outrageous act and their is proof and witnesses to prove the facts is "allegations." Yet when we kill folks without any proof of who they are they are "suspected" terrorists and that makes it ok.

[Toots]

33. We must keep asking why they are there.

The reasons given to start the war have turned out to be false so why are we there?

[maxsolomon]

2. we're not going to win

there is only withdrawal left.

someone should have done a little homework before they invaded.

[Rose Siding]

3. The crime, not allegations of the crime will make the job harder

Compounded by the fact that 3 tours, no end in sight, no picture of what "success" would look like and no plan to get there, can almost insure that individuals will crack.

[uppityperson]

22. Exactly, what Rose Siding said.

[adigal]

4. So does he think we should just bury the story,

like they did to their victims??? Huh? Is this what we have become??

[underpants]

5. Well OF COURSE they hid behind children

because I am just sure that the insurgents love standing out in the middle of the street for a photo-op OF COURSE they do and since there is absolutely no way of verifying this it must be true.

Oh hold on a second

WHAT IN GOD'S NAME DOES ANY OF THIS HAVE TO DO WITH EXECUTING WHOLE FAMILIES?????????????????????

[zreosumgame]

6. and covering it up accomplishes what exactly?

After all it is not locals it was being hidden from, no more then it was a secret to laotians when Nixon used that to get re-elected, or that it was a secret to locals that we were raping kids and torturing people in our 'secret prisons. It was only being hidden from us.

[nealmhughes]

7. The wonderful ambiguity of English.

Does the officer mean that the allegations make their lives harder in Iraq by it being reported or that the taint per se does?
I'm sure that everyone in the city knew what happened before it hit the wires in the West.

[Mikimouse]

10. Two points...

1) With all due respect, 'Sir', it is not the allegations that are endangering cooperation with the Irqis, it is the MURDER of civilians that will do that just fine, thank you very much.
2) Just my $0.02, I think you are a lying sack of shit, regarding the children-as-shields thing, and I suspect that you are merely using that lie to try and justify the actions against civilians.

[RedStateShame]

11. DRAFT JOHN STOCKTON!!!

Apparently, if anybody here says that anything....from Rumsfeld's haircuts to the slaughter of civilians....the soldiers are unable to better fight the war. But, when former Utah Jazz guard John Stockton went to the free throw line, he was almost always money in the bank....even when people waved their hands, yelled, etc. So, it's obvious to me that the military needs to learn the zen-like focus of John Stockton at the free throw line to counter the apparent disruption of a web log in the US.

Oh, and draft Reggie Miller if possible, too. That guy was clutch!!!

[Tansy_Gold]

17. Your humor is appreciated -- and so is the point behind it

I think one of the points being missed here in this whole Haditha dialogue is that Marines are trained to kill, and they are trained to kill under wartime circumstances. The lesson NOT learned from Vietnam is that the rules don't apply when the war changes from military-to-military engagement, as we had in WW2.

The American military isn't mentally trained for this, and if they aren't, then booosh shouldn't have sent them in. I mean, c'mon, folks, do we honestly believe there was insufficient "intelligence" regarding the strength of the Iraqi military? Didn't we KNOW ahead of time that this wouldn't be a military-on-military war, that it would be civilians defending their homeland? Oh, sure, I know all about the cake-walk mentality, but even the disgraced Colin Powell warned that it would take more US forces than Rumsfeld was willing to commit. Powell knew there was no Iraqi military as such, and he had to know it would be civilian-based insurrection if there was any resistance at all.

And Powell had to know the US military isn't mentally prepared for that.

Because that's what we have now -- a totally guerrilla war. There is no Iraqi army fighting against "us," it's a civilian insurgency whether the insurgents are Iraqi, Iranian, Afghan, Pakistani, whatever. And while I'm sure the Marines are trained in the tactics of urban guerrilla warfare, I doubt they're trained in how to deal with the resulting mental pressure.

And if they are indeed trained in how to deal with fighting civilians who may be children or who hide behind a wall of children, their training isn't effective. Maybe they were trained well enough to enable them to commit the deed, but they can't mentally deal with it. The two Marines from Pendleton whose pictures are bringing all this to light are reportedly suffering PTSD as a result. They did the job but now can't live with their memories of the deed.

Sadly, with the sarcasm button off, if they became like Stockton or Miller, would WE be able to live with THEM?

It's wrong, it's all wrong. The war was wrong, the killing is wrong, it's all just so wrong I can't find words for it. But the biggest wrong is that so many people comfortably refuse to see how wrong it is.

Tansy Gold

[coalition_unwilling]

29. Our anti-Arab racism caused us to underestimate their

intelligence before and after we invaded\occupied. To wit, Seymour Hersh in the Epilogue to "Chain of Command" interviews a former Iraqi general from Saddam Hussein's reign in Jordan after the "fall" of Baghdad. That general told Hersh that Saddam had concluded by January of 2002 that Bush would invade. (In other words, more than a year before the actual invasion commenced.) According to Hersh, Saddam Hussein instructed his senior military staff to study the Vietnam War and develop a cell-based guerilla strategy.

In effect, then, Saddam Hussein outsmarted BFEE and U.S. military. He ceded them the terrain (I guess), but only because he wanted to fight the war he wanted (a guerilla war), not the war the U.S. military wanted (one with huge set-piece battles). And, of course, since Vietnam, the U.S. military has had a deliberate policy of not preparing to fight guerilla wars.

[teryang]

30. Exactly right!

Nobody saw him reading Giap? Nobody saw his irregular forces?

A professional analyst would have to have been blind. But the politicians, rich plutocrats, defense contractors and their shareholders got what they wanted, an interminable conflict to justify the overthrow of Constitutional government at home.

Hey, I got an idea, let's start another war.

[catnhatnh]

12. Winning hearts and minds....

....by shooting through them.....

[benburch]

13. Then we need to be undercut.

If the truth damages us, that is because we deserve to be damaged.

[Ravy]

14. Blames the coverage, but not the act itself. (n/t)

[primavera]

21. That pretty much sums up my feelings as well

Under this administration, the concern never has to do with the crimes being perpetrated; only with the fact that somebody actually reported the crimes. Evidently, this administration has solved the old Bhuddist riddle: if a crime takes place in the forest and no one sees or hears of it, the crime never took place. That's Republican accountability for you.

[ECH1969]

15. I trust nothing our troops say

They are as big liers as *.

[Terran1212]

16. They see you every day -- they get their perceptions from that

[demswin06]

18. I caught the interview with Terrazas' brother...

and he did look quite lost out there.However,he was quite willing and able enough to parrot the Bush/Marines line of crapola. As for the Marines,if you don't want to be perceived as killers,then I have this nugget of wisdom for you: "Don't do the crime,if you can't do the time". And yes,I am well aware of the fact that I quoted from the Baretta show and the lead actor,Robert Blake who was accused and acquitted of murder.

[UpInArms]

19. I suppose one could say that the pregnant woman who was killed

also was "hiding" behind a child.

:nuke:

[IndianaGreen]

27. Fundies believe in feticide laws

Should we charge the troops with killing of a fetus?

[Fierce]

20. "Restraint almost cost me my life," he said.

That's right! It also saved you from shooting kids!

[The Stranger]

23. Then police your own. Or suffer the consequences.

That is how you are trained.

[jahyarain]

24. um

did anyone notice where the article came from? this is complete and utter lies.

[IndianaGreen]

25. Our Marines shouldn't even be in Iraq!

Each day they spend in that country, is another day of needless killings and violence, and another day in which war crimes are committed.

[newscott]

26. Wouldn't a soldier rather do the honorable thing?

Isn't that part of the code? Better to die with honor than to have to live with dishonor?

[newspeak]

28. yep, that's what my dad had tattooed on his arm

"Death before Dishonor."

[treestar]

32. Every Iraqi will assume? Big assumption.

Just like anti-war demonstrators?

More attempt to shut down our democracy in the name of "making our job easier."

Sorry, but why should his job be "made easier" with a denial of reality? Sounds just like Bush.