Police report: Alleged Victim Changed Story (Duke case)

[pnwmom]

http://abclocal.go.com/wtvd/story?section=local&id=4208878

05/26/06 -- DURHAM) - The woman who accused three Duke lacrosse players of raping her changed her story and appeared to fake being unconscious, according to a police report obtained Friday by Eyewitness News.

SNIP

"When I used it , the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious," he wrote. "My experience is that unconscious people wake up rather quickly when exposed to ammonia capsules.

SNIP

"He called me and stated the female stated she had been raped...Once at Duke , I spoke to the female, who was now cooperative," Shelton wrote. "She said some of the guys from the party pulled her from the vehicle and groped her. She told me that no one forced her to have sex."

SNIP

"Within a few minutes, I was told that she told the that she had been raped? I returned? and asked her if she had or had not been raped. She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom."


A recent defense filing is available here (click on the words "Fascinating Reading"):

http://betsyspage.blogspot.com/

Warning: "Betsy" is a conservative blogger I found through google, but this is the first site where I located an actual defense filing.

[Name removed]

1. Deleted message

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[pnwmom]

3. The article was from a local ABC affiliate.

The blogger's conservative credentials have a bearing on her opinions, yes; but the defense filing she links to (and that I couldn't find anywhere else) contains information that DUers might want to see. Don't forget that the DA gave more than 70 interviews to the press in the run up to his election. It's not like we haven't heard his side.

[TheWraith]

5. You're coming precariously close to breaking the rules.

[Moosepoop]

6. Really?

How so?

[NVMojo]

129. gee, maybe the poster wants us to act like fundi-freepers and disallow

debate on freeper material? I think it is healthy. Otherwise we are never going to be able to represent our own causes if we don't know how to dispute the other side's falsity. Just my opinion.

[Name removed]

2. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Name removed]

4. Deleted message

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[TorchTheWitch]

7. Oh, big deal

If anything what the officer says in his report just makes it more clear to me that she was raped by somebody.

HE thinks she was faking being unconscious when all she could have been doing was sitting in the car with her eyes closed obviously not wanting to deal with him. She said she didn't want to talk to him and obviously didn't want to get out of the car. Further, the guy GRABBED her and hauled her out of the car. I'm sure someone who had just been raped would have no desire to deal with anyone that grabs her and bodily removes her from a car... nice way to build trust and make her feel comfortable about you, buddy. However, at the time the officer didn't know anything about any rape, so I can excuse him for his actions, but he should hardly be surpised how she probably felt toward him later.

He goes back to the hospital and tries to talk to her about her rape allegation, but obviously she doesn't want to talk to him about it, never wanted to talk to him about it from the beginning and said so. Sure, rape victims have been known to tell those they don't want to talk to about what happened to them lies about what happened to them so they aren't forced to talk about something they don't want to talk about with someone they don't want to talk about it with. Why is this unusual in this case?

This officer made a bad impression on her in her condition and should not have been the one to go talk to her at the hospital. A female officer should have been sent to talk to her that she wouldn't have any previous reason to be afraid of or distrust. This is the LAST officer that should have to gone to question her about the rape since she already indicated SHE DIDN'T WANT TO TALK TO HIM and out of necessity had to use physical force on her. However, in the course of his questioning, she DID break down emotionally and told him what happened although clearly she did not want to tell her story to this guy, but he persisted and questioned her anyway. What the hell did he expect she'd say? Dispicable that it was THIS officer in particular that questioned her at the hospital even KNOWING she didn't want to talk to him and he SHOULD have known that his actions earlier with her would make her fear and distrust him and when he isn't specially trained in how to deal with an alleged rape victim.

And this is just stupid...

The report also shows inconsistencies with the story from the second dancer, Kim Roberts. The alleged victim called her "Nikki" that night.

SO WHAT? Dancers know each other by their dance names. Only two of the women I've worked with for years know what my real name is and still call me by my dance name anyway just like everyone else I work with. Even my managers don't know what my real name is unless they cared to look it up in my file and call us all by our dance names. Why in the world would the accuser who just met Kim know what her real name is and not call her by the dance name she used?

According to the report, neither woman told police that Roberts also performed at the lacrosse team's party.

Another 'so what'. Kim didn't want anyone to know she was a dancer and said so. At the time she just wanted the woman out of her car and out of her life.

Disgusting that an alleged rape victim was treated this way by the police and the press actually has the gall to try to make her look like she lied about being raped because of how she reacted.

The defense motion is basically boilerplate... nothing about it is particularly interesting or noteworthy other than the disgraceful way the Durham Police handled the questioning of the accuser.

[Moosepoop]

8. You beat me to it.

I had a long post going, saying the same things -- but you said it first, and better. :thumbsup:

[BrownOak]

42. The old "bent wrist come along"

From the article:

"I grabbed the female and attempted to pull her from the vehicle. She grabbed the emergency brake with her left hand and would not come out of the car. At this point, I applied a bent wrist come-along to her right-hand arm? once she was out of the car, I released the pressure and she collapsed to the ground."

The bent wrist come-along is essentially when the officer grabs the other person's wrist and bends it backwards until it causes so much pain that the other party will "come along." It's a nice way to build a trust.

That said, I don't think the fact that she changed her story to this particular officer indicates that she was or wasn't assaulted as it could be viewed in either light.

The bigger question is that if the 20/17 to 3 attackers is true, who did she tell that to? I think that's a more telling point regarding the allegation.

[pnwmom]

65. I think it does matter that the second dancer lied. If she actually

thought the first dancer had been raped, wouldn't she have wanted to testify on her behalf? Since she went to the trouble of calling the police?

Since she was at the party, she was an important witness.

[TorchTheWitch]

83. She DIDN'T think she was raped

Kim Roberts, the second dancer, had no idea at all that the accuser was raped at that time. She was angry with her because she thought she was drunk or spaced out on drugs. That's been common knowledge since the beginning.

[pnwmom]

104. Isn't it odd in that small house that Kim Roberts would have had

no idea what was going on? That either the accuser or the supposed rapists wouldn't have been making some noise in that bathroom that would have gotten her attention?

And, assuming you are right about why the accuser hadn't told the police at first about the rape, why didn't she tell Kim? If not while they were in the house, while they were in the car?

[jberryhill]

116. The claim is that Roberts was not in the house...

The victim's claim is that she went back into the house after having left the house with Roberts.

That's the problem with Bissey seeing her go back to the house after Seligmann had already left.

[pnwmom]

134. And so she just sat in her car all that time, supposedly?

[TorchTheWitch]

163. When's the last time you were at a big party?

Plenty can go on in a small house that most people there wouldn't have any idea about. Hell, I've done some pretty crazy things at parties myself that nobody knew about.

With over 40 people in a small house all making noise it's impossible to not know what's going on in a closed bathroom upstairs while you're down in the kitchen or something? Are you kidding?

Just how much noise can be made by a woman being strangled anyway? Seems to be a good reason to be strangled while a rape is going on, huh? Can't do much in the way of screaming or calling for help when you can't breath.

Roberts being the only woman surrounded by 40+ frat boys that are obviously hostile to her hasn't got anything better to do than strain her ears for some odd noise coming from a bathroom upstairs? Apparantly she argued with them and slapped somebody. Seems to me that if that was the case she had better things to do at the time and other things to be paying attention to rather than something that may or may not have been going on upstairs. Somebody who had too much to drink could have been up in that bathroom with the door shut retching their guts up and people elsewhere in the house wouldn't have heard a thing. Was there music playing? Maybe there was... we don't know. Lots of parties have music playing which just adds to the noise. Seems to me that dancers would require some kind of music... come to think of it, whenever I dance there's usually music playing (wow... who'd have thought?)

And who says nobody knew that something not right was going on in the bathroom anyway? Could be plenty of people that knew or suspected... just not Kim. We have no idea where Kim was at the time. She could have been downstairs or outside. Seems to be a good reason for the women to be separated, huh? So the other dancer wouldn't know what was going on with the first dancer and couldn't be an eyewitness.

Who knows why the accuser didn't tell Kim? Why should she? They don't know each other, and Kim was angry with her. Plenty of rape victims can't even tell people they know, love and trust!

Read up about rape victims and maybe you'll understand why so many of them can't bring themselves to tell ANYONE. Hell, imagine being raped yourself and then get back to us.

[pnwmom]

167. You're right; I've never been to a party quite like that one.

And you're wrong. The house had no upstairs. According to the search warrant, it was a single story house. I saw it on TV and it looked very small.

http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke2.html

[jberryhill]

179. Upstairs bathroom?

http://www.co.durham.nc.us/departments/txad/TaxDB/P/Dsp001.cfm?P=102195&Y=2006

Physical Address 610 N BUCHANAN BLVD
Fair market Value $106,159.00
Actual/Effective Year Built 1910
Number of Bedrooms 2
Number of Bathrooms 2.0
Total Number of Rooms 4
Finished Area 1,407



It looks like there may be an attic bedroom.

Having been to plenty of parties, I would guess that in a house that small with two bathrooms and 40 beer drinkers, bathroom activity would be particularly noticeable.

[pnwmom]

182. It took me a sec, but LOL

The search warrant described the house as one story, and from the angle I saw on TV the roofline didn't look tall enough to accomodate anything upstairs.

And given the square footage (1400) and total number of rooms in the house (4, not including bathrooms) a house of that age and appearance would be easily able to accomodate both bedrooms, a kitchen, and the fourth room on a single floor.

[pnwmom]

72. I think you're doing a lot of speculating about the accuser's thought

processes. But none of us really know what she was thinking or why she behaved the way she did.

[TorchTheWitch]

84. Thought processes that are common and normal

for the average rape victim. I can tell you right now that if I was ever raped and some cop grabbed me and forced me out of a car there's no way in the world I'd trust him, I'd be terrified of him and want him to go away. If he was foolish enough to come and see me at the hospital and try to question me about the rape which I'd have exactly zero desire to tell him, I'd do ANYTHING to make him leave me alone including lie my ass off. That's my MO for anyone that I don't want knowing anything about my most personal problems, and rape victims universally feel a deep sense of embarrassment and shame in varying degrees... no way in hell I'd even want a stranger to know what happened to me, and no question I'd need a very good and caring counselor to eventually dig it out of me (and there's no question that I wouldn't tell a man right after the fact... ANY man).

MOST people don't want strangers to know their darkest problems especially if they feel embarrassment and shame about them and don't go around spilling their guts to anyone who wants to know. When's the last time YOU spilled your guts to a stranger you were afraid of and distrusted when they questioned you about something exremely personal that makes you feel embarrassed and ashamed? MANY rape victims never tell ANYONE EVER about what happened to them. Hardly a stretch to imagine what her thought processes were if she was raped since those thought processes are to some degree universally shared by every rape victim.

It's precisely THAT behavior she exhibited that convinces me more that she was raped by someone and very recently. If she was faking it, she wouldn't have any problem telling her false story to anyone who wanted to know.

[pnwmom]

103. Your reasoning is circular. You're convinced that because she

didn't want to talk to him, and because she didn't say she was raped (at first), she must have been raped.

But it is equally possible that she didn't want to talk to him because she just wanted to be left alone. And, yes, it is possible that she made a false accusation when she realized where the policeman was taking her.

And yes, I know as much as anyone here does about the SANE report, but anyone who has had consexual sex three times in a short period of time could have the edema and other signs "consistent with rape" that the report notes.

[TorchTheWitch]

164. That's NOT what I said

I said it's more convincing to me that she was beyond what we already know. I STILL don't know whether or not she was raped. Neither does anyone else.

You've read the whole SANE? Where is it? Show me the whole SANE report so I can see what it says. Apparantly, you must know what it says. The DEFENSE doesn't even know what it says. They only have a mere 5 sections of a 17 section SANE report. Gee, could it be possible that all the OTHER information about the state of her genitals is in the parts the defense doesn't have?

There could be all kinds of signs noted in the SANE about bleeding, lacerations, bruising... who knows what. We don't KNOW that since we don't have any idea what MOST of the SANE report says.

Unbelievable that knowing how little of the SANE report the defense has that you assume there's nothing in there about her genitals other than edema. TWELVE sections of the SANE report are missing and there's nothing more written about the state of her genitals? What in the world could possibly be written in those 12 sections then? And where's all the internal exam information at? Edema would be a finding most likely noted during an external exam... like they noted tenderness in her abdominal lower (left/right can't remember which) quadrant which would be a finding in an external exam. So where's all the info about what was found or not found on an INTERNAL exam where things like bleeding, bruising, lacerations, etc. would be found? Gee, maybe it has something to do with the fact that the defense apparantly doesn't have 12 sections of a 17 section report. Fancy that.

My reasoning is not the least bit circular. It's LOGICAL. Assuming there is nothing more noted about her genitals when there are 12 sections of the report apparently missing is NOT logical.

As for there being any logic about her making a false accusation when she realized where the police were taking her... well, where is the logic in that? Why wouldn't she tell someone BEFORE she got there then? Why wait until she's already there for awhile? How clever can she possibly be to come up with a wild rape story because she doesn't want to go to the drunk tank when she's so bombed she can't even remember where she lives? Just where is the logic in that? How is it that someone can be so messed up on drugs or alcohol that they can't remember where they live, fall down and/or pass out and STILL be able to have the mental capacity to come up with a false story? One needs to have the ability to think rationally in order to plot.

Clearly, the woman was WACKED out of her head, and every report from everyone who came in contact with her says so. HOW does someone in that condition have the ability to plot to deceive? And HOW do they do it so cleverly that they fool EVERYONE? If this was all so clever ruse, EVERY single cop, doctor and nurse would have to be so STUPID that they didn't see through her... people who have VAST experience with liars and would easily be able to tell when someone's trying to put one over on them to get out of going to the drunk tank or otherwise get out of trouble.

This woman was cleary out of her head yet we're supposed to believe that at the time she was also so damn clever and such a good actress that she fooled ALL the police that she came in contact with, ALL the doctors and nurses she came in contact with and ALL the other people she came in contact with. And after all this time STILL be able to fool everyone. Not only is everyone who she came into contact with so stupid that they couldn't see through her clever plan at the time, they STILL can't see through it. Somehow this paragon of Oscar worthy deception was able to fool EVERYONE and CONTINUE to fool them. That's not only ridiculous, it's STUPID.

Why do you suppose it is that woman who make false accusations of rape are found out in the BEGINNING? Gee, maybe because they aren't so clever as to be able to fool EVERYONE and fool them for any length of time. And to be able to be so clever and such a good actress when bombed out of their skull, too!

The woman was most probably raped, most probably very recently and is behaving just as anyone who had been recently raped would normally behave. Whether or not it happened at the party or by the people she accused is another matter. If you're going to try to accuse her of a false rape allegation you'd be better off trying to convince people that she did that when she ID'd the accused. Not that such an argument has much of any real merit, but it sure beats this one. There is just too much information about what her demeaner and behavior was like before that party that pretty much says that her being raped sometime that same day or otherwise very recently is pretty far-fetched... and so far-fetched that it just isn't REASONABLE.

It's already been reported that she had facial bruising and other injuries that tell me such an encounter wouldn't have been consensual. The abdominal soreness is pretty striking... that's not normally something one would have particularly so long after a sexual "rough" encounter that would be present. All these things together to believe could be explained away by something else is just WAY too coincidental.

But sure, if one is determined to believe she made a false rape allegation for some silly-ass bizzare reason then they'll cling to whatever tiny little unreasonable straw they can find. Never mind that it isn't logical, or make any real sense, or contradict other information, or forces one to ignore other information as though it didn't exist, or is so far out in left field as to be absurd... if one REALLY wants to believe that this is a case of deliberate false accusation, they'll connect dots out into the stratusphere to convince themselves.

[Moosepoop]

9. Incidentally, this article from the local abc news affiliate

is riddled with inaccuracies -- at least three that I've found so far.

Twice there are ? marks in place of actual words from the supplemental report written by the officer, when the missing words are clearly readable in the supplemental report itself. One of the ? marks replaces the words "As I applied pressure, she became responsive and eventually I was able to get her out of the car". Also, the article misquoted the report about the bent-wrist come-along tactic, quoting the officer's words in the report as having applied this to her "right-hand arm", when he said in the report "right-hand and arm".

Also, the article quotes from the officer's report as follows:
"She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom."

The actual report clearly has the word "bathroom" where the article has the word "bedroom".

Sloppy reporting, or sloppy editing. Either way, I don't put much stock in it.

[atomicdawg38]

10. I'm sure I'll get flamed...

I've read everything about this case, and I believe she is a false accuser. I would hope she would be subject to the length of prison time these men are facing. Flame away :)

[Moosepoop]

11. Not going to flame you for your opinion.

Could you tell us why you feel she's a false accuser?
Since you've read a lot about it, what has convinced you that she's lying?

Your reasoning might get flamed, but not you.

Welcome to DU!!! :hi:

[NaturalHigh]

12. I believe that too.

Let's not forget that she originally claimed she had been raped by twenty white guys. After she had time to think about it, she changed her story to claim she had been raped by three white guys. That qualifies as a discrepancy, doesn't it?

Then let's not forget that DNA tests did not indicate that she had sex with ANY of the players in the house. The DA is dreaming if he thinks he is going to get a conviction out of this.

[jbnow]

13. Twenty guys?

Never heard that.

If she was raped I hope the rapists don't get away with it. If she made false charges I hope she doesn't get away with it. I don't know what prosecutor has. I don't know what happened. I don't know why we'd "take sides" now. I think too much is in the paper.

It reminds me of some site that had a poll within a couple days of Bryant being accused asking who we believed.

[Moosepoop]

14. The "twenty guys" claim

came from a Duke University campus cop who eavesdropped on a phone call being made by a Durham cop, and who wrote a report for his bosses at Duke saying that the accuser had claimed that. Turned out that he never talked to the accuser, never talked to the officer that supposedly said that to someone else on the phone, and never substantiated what he THOUGHT he heard the Durham cop saying to someone else on the phone.

It's been debunked here and in the press, many times, but some posters keep on tooting that horn anyway. Some people are just slow learners.

[BrownOak]

43. But it really hasn't been debunked n/t

[TorchTheWitch]

165. The Durham police have

and have repeatedly. Are they all lying? Just how much debunking do you require? Where could this 20 men information possibly have come from? None of the police or doctors or nurses or anyone else that talked to her have claimed she said any such thing.

[progressivebydesign]

46. it's a schock to me that rape victims don't just kill themselves sometimes

Especially if they have the guts to accuse a sports figure, rich kid, or other privileged type. sheesh. It's a man's world.. and a white man's world, at that.

[Spike from MN]

50. Oh, they probably do.

At least, the stats for attempting suicide are a lot higher for rape victims. What the stats are for actual suicides I don't know but I would guess that they would tend to follow the same trend. Also, a rape victim may not tell anyone about the rape but eventually wind up taking his/her own life. In that case, they wouldn't be included in the stats of people that committed suicide because they had been raped so that stat might be a bit harder to verify. Anyway, here's some info:

Some mental heath problems are life threatening. When asked if they ever thought seriously about committing suicide:

One-third (33%) of the rape victims and 8% of the non-victims of crime said yes.
Rape victims were 4.1 times more likely than non-crime victims to have contemplated suicide.
Rape victims were 13 times more likely than non-crime victims to have attempted suicide (13% Vs 1%).

http://www.musc.edu/vawprevention/research/mentalimpact.shtml

Lots of other info at that link. One that really stands out is the concern about being blamed for the rape. 69% of all victims say they worry about being blamed. 69%. What other crimes can we say that about? Robbery? Nope. Mugging? Nope. Non-sexual assault? Nope. In fact, we've seen a LOT of posts here blaming the victim in the Duke case but I don't recall a single one blaming the victim in the Finnerty assault case in D.C. In fact, I don't recall anyone touting that people should be wearing armbands claiming that Finnerty was "innocent" in that case. Why is that? I think that says a LOT about the way society treats rape victims. Sadly, I would have thought people on a so-called "liberal" or "progressive" board would be more enlightened as to the plight of rape victims but unfortunately that doesn't appear to be the case. Since the Duke case first came to light, there has been a select group of people attacking the victim every chance they get. One can only guess what possible motivation the rape-apologists could have. I have an idea and it's NOT pretty.

Given their fear of being blamed, it's probably not shocking that a VERY high percentage of rape victims don't report the crime. And given the way they are treated, on this board as well as in society in general, one can hardly blame them. I've posted these stats before but here they are again for those that haven't seen them yet.

72% of rapes/sexual assaults are not reported to the police. Those rapists, of course, never serve a day in prison. <1999 NCVS>

If the rape is reported to police, there is a 50.8% chance that an arrest will be made.

If an arrest is made, there is an 80% chance of prosecution.

If there is a prosecution, there is a 58% chance of a felony conviction.

If there is a felony conviction, there is a 69% chance the convict will spend time in jail.

So, even in those 28% of rapes that are reported to police, there is only a 16.3% chance the rapist will end up in prison.

Factoring in unreported rapes, about 5%—one out of twenty— of rapists will ever spend a day in jail. 19 out of 20 will walk free.



http://hcs.harvard.edu/~casv/stats.htm

Yes, that's right. 72% of rapes go unreported. I'm sure there are many here that would like to see that number be 100% as that would "do away" with the problem entirely in their eyes. To them, EVERY rape is a false accusation and ALL "alleged rape victims" should just shut the hell up and get on with their lives. Sigh. So much for "progressive" or "liberal" thinking. It's back to the dark ages where this sort of stuff was shoved under the rug and never talked about.

[pnwmom]

73. I think you're completely off base here, to say that "many" DU'ers think

that "every rape is a false accusation and ALL 'alleged rape victims' should just shut the hell up and get on with their lives."

Show me where a single DU'er has made a statement like that.

But, speaking only for myself, I do think false accusations (of any crime) are possible. Just possible. I also think that there are a number of reasons to think this prosecutor jumped on a weak case, where the police appear to have made a number of mistakes, for political reasons.

And now he's put off the prosecution for a year, hoping that eventually we'll all forget about it and he can quietly drop the charges.

[NaturalHigh]

77. I'm actually surprised that more men accused of rape...

don't kill themselves. They are the ones who do the perp walk, hounded by the media and various agenda-driven groups, their lives ruined by the accusations, whether or not there is a shred of evidence.

[Buzz Clik]

115. Indeed. The accused were on the cover of Newsweek...

... even the one who wasn't there at the time of the rape. Their names are everywhere.

And the "victim"? What's her name again? Oh, yeah, "the woman accusing the men of rape."

The system is set up to protect the accuser, not the accused.

[LostinVA]

144. It's called "rape shield laws," and this case proves why

And, the victim's name has been made public, and she and her family have been threatened.

[IndianaGreen]

34. She has always been raped, or otherwise, with 3 men

She claimed that she was raped by 3 men when she was 14. She also claimed that she had consentual sex with 3 men prior to the alleged rape (her boyfriend, and two drivers for the escort service she worked for). Now she claims that 3 men raped her.

One could argue that if her first claim of rape was true, that she is probably suffering from some kind of PTSD. 3 rapes/consentual sex, involving 3 men, at 3 different times in her life?

[idgiehkt]

53. wonder how many women the lacrosse players have raped in their lives

Oh, that's right, they aren't on trial here...

[pnwmom]

66. The university's report covered that issue. None of the players have

ever been accused of assaulting a woman. One was convicted of assaulting a man (a gay man, I believe.)

[TorchTheWitch]

85. What difference does being accused make?

How many rapists are always accused every time they rape someone? Very few. Far too few. We have no way of knowing whether or not the accused have raped before. We know they've never been accused before publically, but that doesn't mean they never raped someone before. Not saying they ARE rapists or repeater rapists, just pointing out that statistically rapists tend to get off scott free without the victim ever making a complaint against them.

It's entirely possible that a rapist accused of rape for the first time has done it before. I would imagine that the more times a rapist rapes someone the greater the odds that one of the victims will make a claim, and eventually they'll be officially accused, but that's not really saying very much... if they're very careful in who they choose as their victims and how they go about conducting the rape they can reduce those odds substantially. Statistics say that one in every three women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes... what does that tell you? There's a hell of a lot of rapists out there and a hell of a lot of repeaters that are never accused and never caught.

[BlueIris]

15. "The DA is dreaming if he thinks he is going to get a conviction..."

"...out of this."

You don't know much about your average DA, do you?

[Occulus]

16. Perhaps not

but many here can small a false accusation from a mile away.

Her story smells as bad as kimchi.

[pnwmom]

67. This particular DA screwed up the case with his line-ups consisting

of nothing but Duke lacrosse players.

[sarcasmo]

22. A friend of mine was arrested on an accusation like this nearly ruined

his life.
My roommate was at a bar and went home with this Woman. The Woman's husband found out about it and she called the police and reported it as a rape. The only thing that saved my friend was that their were witnesses at the bar who saw her and him together and her being more friendly than him.
The Woman was convicted of filing a false police report and served 60 days in jail. My roommate was let out of jail and when I picked him up he didn't have shoes or a coat, which they were keeping for testing. All because of an accusation.

[progressivebydesign]

47. You can be friendly with a guy in a bar, go home with him..

and he can STILL rape you! What part of rape don't you understand? Her being friendly to a guy in a bar does not give a license to rape.

[pnwmom]

68. No, but women can make false accusations, and a woman caught by

her husband is someone more likely to do so, I would think.

[TorchTheWitch]

23. Says who?

Let's not forget that she originally claimed she had been raped by twenty white guys.

There's nothing at all that indicates she claimed this other than a report of Officer Day of the Duke police who never spoke to her and was not told this directly. Durham police repeatedly denies that any officer ever said she claimed she was raped by 20 white guys. Officer Day put this in his report because of what he overheard in a portion of a one-sided telephone conversation of some unknown police officer and somehow came up with this conclusion.

SHE claimed no such thing. Officer Shelton of the Durham police who went to speak to her at the hospital doesn't make any claim that she made this allegation and neither do any of the other Durham officers.

Even if she DID make this claim, so what? She was so falling down passed out drunk or drugged she could have claimed to have been raped by 450 camels in an igloo and it shouldn't be surprising. But no, somehow people who are so falling down passed out drunk or drugged that they can't even remember where they live are supposed to make perfect sense, and be calculating enough to make up a clever story. :eyes:

You've seen the DNA tests? You know that there are no partial ID's in those tests? No you don't. And lets not forget that only a small percentage of DNA tests can positively ID anyone to have had any kind of sex with someone consensual or otherwise... you like to forget that I've noticed. You also don't know who's pubic hair was found on her that the defense has been so silent about but we know exists... but you can bet that Nifong knows. There's all kinds of evidence we don't know about because nobody (especially the defense) wants you to know. Congratulations that you are reacting EXACTLY as the defense hoped you would with their typical campaign of poisoning the jury pool. How does it feel to be used and duped by them?

[NaturalHigh]

28. It's not possible for the Duke police officer to overhear...

something that is germane to the case? No, it has not been "debunked" that she claimed to have been raped by twenty guys. In fact, it's in the official report that was submitted to the Duke administration. As much as you would like for us to believe otherwise, it's pretty significant that she would make that claim and then revise it to a more "believable" number.

As for one of the accused players' pubic hairs being found on her, I haven't heard anything like that. If that were true, don't you think Nifong would have announced that by now? I realize that some here are anxious to turn Nifong into some kind of saint, but let's not forget that he's had plenty of press conferences of his own. I don't recall him saying anything like that.

Cheering for these guys to be convicted does not manufacture any sort of evidence, and there's precious little of it to point toward their guilt.

[TorchTheWitch]

52. In a report by somebody who doesn't know

That's the point. It's in a report written by someone who never spoke to her, never spoke to the Durham police and overheard part of a one-way phone conversation. In other words, the person who made the claim and put it in his report doesn't know what the fuck he's talking about. The Durham police repeatedly deny she ever said that to any of them or anyone else. The End.

Nifong or someone who works with him mentioned a pubic hair to the press which is how it got in the press. YOU just haven't heard anything about it because you close your ears to anything other than what the defense says. Nifong hasn't said much of ANYTHING other than "I know they did it." He's given vague responses to the press, and any information that has leaked out about evidence from the prosecution side has come from other sources... might be him, might not be. HE himself hasn't given any public information out. Neither side is going to try the case in the press. The defense is going to point in all sorts of directions and make claims about evidence that no one knows exists or not because they won't share it (surprise, surprise) because it's their JOB to poison the jury pool.

No, no one here is trying to turn Nifong into any kind of saint. Go ahead and find any posts that suggest anyone feels he's some kind of saint and let us see them... hell, just ONE post. It's YOU who is trying to make him out to be some kind of power hungry idiot that couldn't fight his way out of a paper bag. He's probably average. He's also well respected by both defense attorneys and prosecutors across the board and has many years of experience. I, myself, have been pretty critical of some things he's done in this case.

If you haven't heard anything about the pubic hair, too bad for you. Then again, you don't pay very much attention to anything that doesn't fit in with your agenda... for example, how many times have you ignored that there is a low percentage of DNA tests that positively identify anyone, yet you perpetually point out that no positive ID's have been linked to the accused as if that makes it impossible that they had sex of any kind with the accuser. There's been plenty of discussion about the pubic hair here and elsewhere, and if it's news to you, well, that's your problem.

I'm NOT cheering for the accused to be convicted, far from it. Unlike you, I don't make any decisions about something that happened that I don't have enough information about to make any kind of informed decision. I've said that REPEATEDLY.

[jberryhill]

55. If you look at the Durham PD report

The first responder to 610 N. Buchanan was the same guy who showed up at the Kroger, spoke with the AV in the parking lot, sent her to Durham Access with another officer, and then went to the hospital and spoke with her again at the hospital.

If you continue reading his report, he says that he called the Duke PD to get an ID on the occupants of the house.

If you read the Duke PD report, it says that Durham PD called Officer Day to get an ID on the occupants of the house.

So, yes, it is clear that Shelton spoke with both the victim and Day.

[TorchTheWitch]

86. So what?

Nowhere in Shelton's report does he say the the accuser claimed 20 men raped her. Therefore, if Shelton and Day spoke, Day did not get the information about a claim of rape by 20 men from Shelton. The End.

[jberryhill]

94. I gather that you must have missed...

...my extensive discussion on why that portion of the Day report constitutes inadmissible hearsay and doesn't matter anyway. Either that, or you have confused me with someone else.

[TorchTheWitch]

166. Not at all

Which makes me wonder why you push the theory that since Day and Shelton spoke that's where Day got the information that she claimed she was raped by 20 men.

And whether or not it's hearsay hardly matters to anyone here but you since we're all discussing this not as a court case but a case of what actually happened, so if she DID tell someone she was raped by 20 men it's going to matter to people whether that information is hearsay or not.

You could hardly be confused with anyone else as there is no question that you're decidedly... er... unique.

[jberryhill]

185. Now I'm a Pusher, woo-hoo

Actually, as Moosepoop pointed out, Shelton refers to speaking to a Duke Lt. at the hospital and the C.I.D. at Duke. Dunno who was on watch duty. So my inference about Shelton speaking to Day was wrong. The only upshot is that Shelton spoke to (a) the victim twice, and (b) member(s) of the Duke force.

if she DID tell someone she was raped by 20 men it's going to matter to people whether that information is hearsay or not

I'm inclined to doubt she made that claim. Personally, it seems more likely that - whomever spoke to whom - two pieces of information along the lines of "there were something like 20 people at the party" and "she says she was attacked at the party" were more likely conflated into Day saying she claimed to have been attacked by 20 people at a party. He wrote the thing at something like 2 or 3 AM, and was probably not hired for his literary talent.

On the other hand, I also put little weight on the apparent damage control after the Duke report, which included Day's report, was released. A while back, Nifong took personal control of the investigation, and it is conceivable that any perceived undermining by personal characterizations of individuals on the Durham force would not be looked upon kindly.

Bottom line - the "20 attacker" issue is a whole lot of nothing. It is not accurate for people to post that "she made the claim", but it is also inaccurate to say it has been "debunked". If Day overheard Shelton speaking to Best, then it would have been accurate for Day to quote Shelton. Shelton's report, while pretty objective in overall tone, seems to reflect some degree of frustration on his part in getting at "wtf happened?". Also, note that it is labeled "supplement", and was written MUCH later than the night in question, as per the date. There was some sort of communication between the Durham PD and the Duke force, but this particular item - the 20 attacker claim - goes on the "not reliable either way" shelf of assorted factoids.

[jberryhill]

62. Day's Report Says...

Day (of the Duke Police) says that Durham Police called and asked him to check out the house and ID the occupants. And indeed, Day went to the house, saw the green Honda there, and ran down the plates on the vehicles and checked out the Duke student directory.

Shelton (of the Durham Police), who directly spoke with the victim both at the Kroger and at the hospital, says he called the Duke Police and asked them to go check out the house and the Duke student directory.

Actually, Shelton says that in the same place posted in another context:



It is clear that Shelton, who spoke with the victim, says "I spoke with a Duke Police Lieutenant". Since I clipped that image on the "bedroom/bathroom" thread, I'll make a larger clip when I have time.

From Shelton and Day's reports, it is reasonable to conclude that Shelton is the Durham PD officer who spoke to Day.

Shelton doesn't say anything about the "20 attackers", and IMHO that was probably just a conflation of someone's estimate of how many were at the party, and the fact that she said she was attacked there. I doubt she ever made a statement to the effect that there were 20 attackers, but I can see how that information about # of party attendees, and # of attackers, could easily be confused in Day's reporting of what he was told.

[Moosepoop]

63. Shelton spoke to a Duke police lieutenant?

That's nice, but Christopher Day is not a lieutenant.

He holds the rank of Police Officer, B Squad.

[jberryhill]

78. Ah, okay...

The report by Day places Lt. Best of the Duke force at the hospital.

[NaturalHigh]

74. Torch, you typed a lot...

to say that the Duke police officer doesn't know WTF he's talking about, to berate me for not hearing anything about a pubic hair on the accuser, and to point out that I have an agenda. Oh yeah, you also told us all, once again, that you're not cheering for a conviction in this case. You, the wise one among us, are neutral, not taking sides.

Whatever...
:eyes:

[TorchTheWitch]

87. I'm not taking sides

And repeatedly have said that. I am not assuming the accused are guilty and repeatedly said that. YOU, on the other hand, have clearly and repeatedly said that the accuser is lying and even had some "master plan" formulated before she even got to the party. You, therefore, are the very last person to have any legitimate reason to be rolling your eyes when it comes to pointing fingers about chosing sides.

YOU, who from the beginning has done nothing else but accuse the AV of false accusation over and over again are the very LAST person with any right whatsoever to make any kind of accusation, sarcasic or otherwise, about anyone else chosing sides.

Go ahead and find ONE post of mine, just ONE, where I make any claim whatsoever that the accused are guilty. I'll wait. But seeing as you can't do it because I NEVER made any such claim, I'll be waiting forever.

[pnwmom]

105. It does sound to me that you've take sides, when you say things like

"Statistics say that one in every three women will be sexually assaulted in their lifetimes... what does that tell you? There's a hell of a lot of rapists out there and a hell of a lot of repeaters that are never accused and never caught."

-- in a post about the fact that the three students have never been accused of assaulting a woman before. (Which I made after another poster wondered how many other women the students have raped.) It sounds like you're prejudging them, based on statistics.

[TorchTheWitch]

168. Then you're confused

There is a BIG difference in leaning toward one side or the other in this case and CONCLUDING who is or is not guilty.

Apparantly, that's a difficult concept for some people.

It sounds like you're prejudging them, based on statistics.

Who is "them"? Men in general? Frat boys in general? The lacrosse players in general? The accused specifically? "Them" covers a whole lot of ground.

Why do you need to speculate about whether or not I've chosen sides when I REPEATEDLY have said I don't know whether or not the accused are guilty and neither does anyone else? How many freaking times does one have to say that they haven't chosen sides and haven't demonstrated they have?

If it makes you happy I'll be absolutely clear: I believe she was raped and raped recently. I think she very well may have been raped at this party by SOMEONE. Anything else I don't know and can only speculate on (as I have been). There now, happy?

[pnwmom]

170. Neither of us is happy, obviously. This is a very sad situation.

When I said "it sounds like you're prejudging them," I was referring to the three defendants.

Let's suppose she was raped by someone(s) at the party. Given the photo lineup, and her drugged or drunken condition, and (assuming what we've heard is true) the lack of conclusive DNA from her body -- doesn't there seem to be a great deal of reasonable doubt about whether they have the right three defendants? And if, as you say, it would have been so easy for anyone to not know what was going on in the bathroom, then wouldn't it be quite possible that the other students don't know who the rapists are?

[NaturalHigh]

118. Torch, I'm very clear about what I believe.

I think the accuser lied, plain and simple, and I'm not shy about saying that. You, on the other hand, try to convince everyone that you're somehow neutral and above the fray, when you've done everything you can to further the pro-accuser agenda. You consistently overlook or ignore the gaping holes in the case, yet you tell everyone that you aren't taking sides.

Again, whatever...
:eyes:

[TorchTheWitch]

171. No shit

What is this, some kind of revelation? Everybody knows where you stand whether it makes any sense or not. As far as I've been able to tell, there AREN'T any holes in the case whatsoever since any of the "holes" you speak of are specifically drilled by defense counsel, and I'm smart enough to pay absolutely no attention whatsoever to one single word they say with nothing to back it up.

Show me a hole. Any hole. Show me a hole in this case backed up with actualy FACT. Good luck with that. Every single solitary so-called "fact" you have ever come up with is either a prejudiced theory or a claim by the defense that can't be varified. Is it any wonder why I'm convinced you have an agenda?

If debunking your "facts" supposedly demonstrates that I've taken sides in this case, well now, that's really your problem. It's pretty twisted logic, but then, you do that.

[NaturalHigh]

181. What facts have you debunked, Torch?

[pnwmom]

183. It can be verified that when shown the original photo lineup, consisting

only of the members of the lacrosse team, the accuser wasn't able to identify the third assailant in that group of pictures. It can be verified that she only identified him a couple of weeks later, when shown the photos again (after her memory had further dimmed), and then she said she was only 90% certain, and that would be true only if he had a mustache.

It can be verified that the various police reports and search warrant conflict with each other, which will make proving the circumstances of the case that much harder. It can be verified that the second dancer's statements changed.

[jberryhill]

79. The hair

http://www.msnbc.msn.com/id/12739861/
The sources also told the Herald Sun that a male pubic hair was also found and possible linked to the case, but because no identifiable DNA was found because the hair lacked a root. But the sources also said the pubic hair was found to have come from a white male.

The operative assumption is that she can't have a white boyfriend.

[IndianaGreen]

89. She said she had sex with boyfriend and two drivers of escort service

any one which could be white, but due to the fact that the hair has no root, it can never be introduced as evidence against the defendants.

[TorchTheWitch]

92. very unlikely

Unless the hair was found up inside her the odds that a hair from some previous encounter with her boyfriend whatever color he is being on her with her changing clothes, moving about and probably showering before going to the party to begin with are really not worth discussing.

A microscopic comparison with the hair found on her and pubes taken from the accused would clear that up. So would knowing whether or not her boyfriend is white. Given his name I'd have really serious doubts that he is white.

Also, given that the prosecution has said practically nothing about physical evidence and they know whether or not her boyfriend is white, I'd also have serious doubts that the existance of the hair would ever be brought up by the prosecution. The prosecution obviously didn't want it to become public that DNA found from a vaginal swab pointed to her boyfriend since they didn't bring it up, so why would they bring up the existance of a pubic hair that may be linked to her boyfriend? And if that pubic hair DID have a possibility of being linked to her boyfriend, you better believe you would have long since been hearing about that from the defense, yet they've been oddly silent about the existance of a pubic hair at all.

Given all this, I really don't need to speculate whether or not the pubic hair is that of her boyfriend's.

[pnwmom]

107. You think she showered before going to the party? Give me a break.

The woman who arrived stoned or drunk? She had several other engagements that day, as I understand. Did she shower before each one?

[TorchTheWitch]

172. Where do you get your information?

Every stripper or escort I know showers before a gig. Being dirty and/or smelly isn't condusive to making money... DUH.

Who says she had other engagements that day? I haven't seen one single bit of evidense that suggests that. Besides, it isn't done. Whe worked through an agency, and agencies don't send you from one gig to another all day. You can't even get a gig every day. According to her family, she went shopping with her father, did some stuff with her kids, and some other crap. Unless there's some verifiable evidence that she had not only two but SEVERAL gigs that day, I'm not buying it. It just isn't done.

And no, you don't go from gig to gig all dirty and smelly and disgusting from the last one. This isn't some crack whore doing $5 blowjobs on the street. For crying out loud, she brought her make-up bag with her so she obviously cares about her appearance when she works... and you suggest that she went to this party with the residue from a previous gig on her, even someone else's PUBIC HAIR??? Jesus, do people think we LIKE having customer scum on us??? I don't know a single dancer that doesn't race home to shower again after work and carries wet-ones or babywipes with them for particularly scummy moments.

The defense says she arrived drunk or drugged up. Nobody else, does and the second dancer refutes that. Bissey watched her walk to house and talk to people outside the house and never said anything whatsoever about her appearing either drunk or stoned. And walking in those shoes she wore can't be done when you're doped up without someone noticing. I wear them myself, and it's hard enough to be stable in them when you're stone cold sober.

[pnwmom]

186. You must have seen enough people drunk or stoned to know that

in an earlier stage, from a distance, you wouldn't be able to tell if they were high. And a man looking at a stripper might not be paying that much attention to how shaky her gait was on her high heels.

Are you disputing that she told the police that there were three men she had sex with consensually? If they had the same color hair as she, wouldn't it be easy to overlook an extra piece of hair?

[pnwmom]

188. I don't know any strippers, Torch, but unfortunately

I have known people with drug and alcohol problems, and they do a lot of things that don't make ANY sense to other people in their situations. And substance abusers exist in every walk of life, including doctors and lawyers, and they can appear, most of the time, to be normally functioning. And then all of a sudden, they're completely wasted and not functioning.

You are speculating about her based on your own experience, which is natural. But is she has a drug or alcohol problem, and you do not, then your experience has little bearing on hers. Substance abuse changes everything.

If the report is correct that toxicology reports were not ordered -- which could have helped prove the prosecutor's claim that she had been given a date rape drug, or the defense claim that she was drunk or high on something else -- that will be one of the major failings of this investigation.

[jberryhill]

198. Get Your Shower Here, Nice Hot Shower Here....

http://www.newsobserver.com/1185/story/443932.html
As he sat in front of his PlayStation console March 13, the accuser showered behind a closed door and modeled at least two negligees for her host, he said.

[pnwmom]

106. Or a white girlfriend.

Who says a DNA-less hair is male?

[TorchTheWitch]

173. The lab said it was from a white MALE

There ya go.

[NaturalHigh]

178. Does it say it's from a Duke lacrosse player?

Maybe it was from a boyfriend. Maybe it was left over from another gig. Until it's matched up to one of the accused, it hardly backs up her story.

[pnwmom]

70. But here's the core problem. If she was so "falling down passed out

drunk or drugged" then how could any of her I.D.'s be at all reliable? Especially when the photo line-up consisted only of players on the lacrosse team?

Whether the students are guilty or not isn't the issue to me anymore. This case has been destroyed. It was murky to begin with, because of her cognitive state, and it became even murkier because of the D.A.'s stupid decisions.

I can't imagine that a rape could ever be provable in this case -- beyond a reasonable doubt -- and that's still the standard. Whether the students are guilty or not, I'll be shocked if a court ever finds them so.

In fact, it would be kind of scary for the rest of us if a D.A. anywhere could get a conviction based on a rigged line-up, partial or no DNA, a pubic hair with no root (thus, no DNA), no supporting witnesses, a second dancer who initially said the charges were "a crock" (but changed her story when she sought a publicist), a drunken victim, a solid alibi for at least one defendant, etc., etc.

Yes, it will be terribly sad if she was raped and justice isn't done. But I just don't see how there will ever be a solid case. Even if the DA is hiding his best evidence, there's still too many questions. Especially with regard to her I.D. of the three defendents, given her mental state and the rigged line-up.

P.S. the prosecutor gave more than 70 interviews to the press in the run-up to his election. Why wasn't that "poisoning the jury pool"?

[TorchTheWitch]

88. Again, so what?

Do victims that have been drugged or drunk at the time of a rape automatically have no case? No. And ID in this case may not even be all that necessary depending on the evidence.

There is a solid case because there is some kind of evidence, the accuser ID'd her possible assailants, and wants to go forward to trial. That's ALL that's needed to go to trial, and the prosecutor is obligated to take a case to trial when these elements exist. None of us know HOW solid his case is... all we really know is that it is solid enough to go to trial.

As for the P.S. - Yep, the prosecutor was trying to poison the jury pool. Both sides do it, but in this case, the defense has done far and away most of it which is usually the case... nothing new or surprising about that. The only thing that is surprising is that Nifong apparantly went to the press first. I have no idea what his motivations were for doing so, but have been critical of him for doing it because he shouldn't have. Had he not gone to the press first and made such a public deal of this case it's possible that it never would have become the national public feeding frenzy that it's become. The defense probably would have made sure of that anyway, but the possibility exists that they may not have any more than any other case. Given the circumstances of the incident and the community tensions it would still have been a local feeding frenzy, but we'll never know if it would have become the national specticle that it has had Nifong not gone to the press in the beginning.

[pnwmom]

108. But she I.D.ed them with a rigged photo lineup.

How solid a case can it be?

If you were the accused, would you be satisfied with a photo lineup conducted like the ones in this case?

[TorchTheWitch]

174. That's a pretty stupid question

If I was the accused I'd want to get off any which way. That's hardly the point. It can also be argued that the photo ID WASN'T rigged. Plenty of attorneys have given their imput on that, and I suspect they'd know better about it then we do. It doesn't follow established protocol, but that doesn't mean it was "rigged". It actually might follow established protocol since there's no guarantee that all the people shown in the photos were at the party and she was told that. There were also enough candidates to have seven for every suspect. Could be argued either way. Certainly it would have probably been a good idea to go by the book, but for all we know maybe they do it this way all the time, or maybe there's enough evidence we don't know about that makes an ID just a formality. We don't know.

How solid a case can it be? You're asking the wrong person. That's a question for the prosecution, and he obviously thinks it's a good enough case to go to trial with. He has told the defense he intends on introducing physical evidence at trial and the defense is already trying to supress it, so whatever it is must be pretty solid or the defense wouldn't bother.

We aren't in any position to determine how solid a case it is since we don't know what the evidence is. Good grief, why is this such a damn difficult concept for some people?

[pnwmom]

184. That's a pretty rude answer.

I meant, as a simple matter of justice, would you think such a lineup would be fair? There was a VERY high likelihood that anyone she picked would have been at the party (you said in another post that 40 people were at the party, which would mean the whole lacrosse team was there). That's not how lineups are supposed to be conducted. It doesn't take three years of law school to figure that out; it's common sense. She could have closed her eyes and randomly picked any three people and they would most likely have been at the party.

The prosecutor thinks he has enough evidence to go to trial with -- in a year. That in itself is a strong message that he doesn't have a case.

[marshall]

17. Another possibility

I wouldn't go so far as to say at this point I think she is a false accuser, but I do think that a possible scenario is that the boys expected a white dancer and made disparaging racist remarks to her. It turned into a horrible humiliating experience for her and she pulled herself together in the bathroom, bolstered herself by saying "This is for money to feed my kids and get through school so I can make a better life for us", came out and continued her dance, and then to top it off they gave her less money than what she had been promised or was expecting.

I'm not saying it did happen that way, I just think it's a possibility.

[Joe Chi Minh]

18. Well you have a very fertile imagination, for which you are to be

commended.

Not everyone would have the nerve to speculate so intricately, discurively and gratuitously, still less, to publish the end product. Have you ever thought of script-writing?

[marshall]

19. Thanks

I guess my ideas are drawn from having grown up in the south (I don't live there now).

It is a strange case with many different issues--money and privilege, gender, race, etc. Hopefully the community can use this as an opportunity to have a dialogue about it. And hopefully the issue will be resolved soon.

[Joe Chi Minh]

20. Well, you sure finessed me there! I thought I was being sarcastic.

But what do I know? I can almost hear the answer, "What indeed?" But I shouldn't be putting words in your mouth.

Don't you think it more likely though that Caucasian kids would prefer African-American girls? And they'd have got sh*tty if they'd been palmed off with white girls?

[marshall]

21. Exotic Dancer

A woman I know had an exotic male dancer hired last year (by her grown daughter) for her 50th birthday. They had asked what race dancer she wanted and she had said caucasian. The dancer turned out to be Tongan. My friend had a great time, but her daughter complained and somehow felt she had been cheated.

Anyway that incident occurred to me in connection to the Duke case. The boys are portrayed in the media as elitist and there is discussion about the disonance between Duke U and the community college across town where the dancer attended. Add that to my own experience of having grown up in Georgia and lived in North Carolina, where I saw first hand how racial prejudice informs southern culture, I just imagined that the scenario I described "might" have happened.

[Joe Chi Minh]

36. Your speculations might have carried more (or less) weight,

with readers, had you first commented on post #7 of TorchThe Witch, which dealt with hard facts as the basis for her surmises.

I can't jib at your right to contribute as you see fit, though criticism of your contribution's value, in terms of its trivial anecdotal nature, particularly in the light of your failure to address the very serious and cogent issues raised by TorchThe Witch seem valid to say the least.

[marshall]

162. I more or less agree with that argument

I don't have an issue with the opinion that the police officer was cold to the lady, that's why I wasn't responding to that line of argument. I'm just trying to come up with a scenario that fits all the evidence (as well as the LACK of evidence).

[pnwmom]

169. I didn't see much in the way of hard facts in that post, but I saw

a lot of speculating as to the dancer's possible state of mind.

[marshall]

187. Lack of evidence leads to questions about state of mind

The way I have seen the case develop, I think the dancer's state of mind ought to be considered. I think if and when the case goes to trial even the prosecution will have to deal with it in order to explain some of the prosecution snafus.

[RagingInMiami]

24. I thought you were being sarcastic

But then I read his post and wasn't sure. Thanks for clearing that up for me.

[marshall]

27. no sarcasm here

I can see after reading the thread (and some of the responses) how my comments might be seen as sarcastic. I'm just trying to figure out a scenario that fits all the evidence as we know it--the lack of DNA evidence, a supposedly solid alibi for one of the acused, etc., added to the notion that something obviously happened to this young woman.

[RagingInMiami]

40. I think it's a bit of a stretch, but anything is possible

[Joe Chi Minh]

37. Am I right in thinking you were addressing this post to me? If so,

my pleasure. I'd sure have hated it to be interpreted at face value by others.

[marshall]

202. Vanity Fair Interview

The second dancer has given an interview for Vanity Fair confirming at least part of my speculation:

"When they learned that the second dancer coming was black, some objected because they wanted a white dancer, she said. But the two dancers nonetheless danced for about eight minutes until a young man waved a broomstick in the air and made crude comments."


"She added that when she and the other dancer left, the players shouted racial slurs."

[TorchTheWitch]

25. Now that's an interesting possibility

How does a woman so falling down passed out drunk or drugged manage to bolster her self up in the bathroom, review the situation and come up with a clever rape allegation story where her entire life will be dragged through the national media? How does that happen and the clothes and shoe she left there are missing and never get returned? How does she come up with this clever plan and fool the SANE with injuries and emotional distress consistant with being forcibly raped when it was all just a figment of her clever imagination? How did she get so lucky to chose a party for this to happen where the guests just HAPPEN to book her with a false name and false information and intensionally use false names at the party in order to confuse who they are to make it difficult for positive identification later?

Man, that is just one incredibly clever and lucky stipper to be able to do all that and more when she's so drunk or drug addled she can't even remember where she lives.

[marshall]

26. That isn't what I said

I am not saying the woman has some kind of master plan that she hatched in the bathroom. What I said was she went in the bathroom after a few insults and pulled herself together and decided to just try and get through the evening, get her money, and leave. Then she came out and things went from bad to worse, with more insults and then not getting paid the money she expected.

[NaturalHigh]

30. The master plan was likely hatched...

before she ever arrived at the party. I think she knew she was going to perform for some white guys with a little money and decided to take full advantage of it.

[marshall]

31. If more evidence comes out

that could be, but I haven't seen anything that will lead me down that conspiracy theory yet. I do think it's likely that she thought she was in for a bundle of cash because of the clients' social standing, but I think it's likely that things took the downward turn after the show started.

Too bad the prosecutor has put the trial off for a year, but I guess that leaves it all open to our speculation.

[Joe Chi Minh]

38. Obviously you mean speculation as to the frat boy's characters.

Not the young woman's. Now why would that be?

[Kingshakabobo]

35. I doubt she pre-planned it................

I think it is more likely that they were pissed off about money and racial slurs. That's why they phoned in the phony 911 call. I guess it's not wise to piss off a couple hookers with criminal records. I think it escalated when the "victim" got tossed in the detox center. She figured she would kill two birds with one stone- get her ass out of the wringer and get the players in trouble. It worked

[NaturalHigh]

76. "Not wise to piss off a couple of hookers with criminal records."

Words of wisdom there, especially now that they can accuse anybody of rape with no evidence and get the guys arrested and hounded by the media and the New Black Panthers.

I still kind of think that the accuser (who shall remain anonymous) planned this ahead of time, but I can also see her getting pissed off at the party and cooking up her story. She did refine it pretty quickly, after all, changing her story from being raped by twenty guys down to a more "believable" number of three.

[superconnected]

160. they aren't even hookers.

But why let facts enter any of your ravings.

[NaturalHigh]

180. If you read up on the case...

you'll find that the escort service verified the accuser went on "two to three one-on-one dates" per week. Um, okay. I'm sure nothing but "exotic dancing" and pleasant conversation took place on those dates.

[superconnected]

191. There is still a difference between an escort and a hooker.

You can assume all you want, but factually, the woman is an escort, not a hooker.

They are not mutually exclusive.

You may assume anything you want, but it is only your assumption, not fact.

[jberryhill]

192. The victim is a woman

I don't give a hoot what she did for a living. If there is a provable charge of rape it should be prosecuted. If there is not, it shouldn't be.

I can't figure out why people obsess over this particular bit of irrelevance.

[superconnected]

194. I agree totally with you.

It doesn't matter what she does for a living.

[NaturalHigh]

200. It goes to her credibility.

I would never say that anybody deserves to be raped, no matter what she does for a living. However, I would bet that her profession will be raised in court in relation to the credibility of her testimony.

[jberryhill]

201. I doubt that

There is nothing about being either a stripper or a prostitute that is relevant to credibility. People from all sorts of backgrounds testify to all sorts of things all of the time.

On the issue of credibility, that information's prejudicial value is outweighed by its probative value.

On the issue of doubt as to the source of the injuries observed by the SANE, the extent of which are not clearly described in anything directly-sourced so far, then there may be some relevance.

[struggle4progress]

48. Contact the defense. Tell em you have ESP. They might like ya at the trial

[TorchTheWitch]

69. Congratulations

You win the prize for Stupidest Theory Ever.

[Name removed]

75. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[TorchTheWitch]

93. You must be kidding

If anything, you seem to follow me. I've spent more time in Duke threads that you haven't been in at all... and I certainly didn't miss you. In all honesty, I had hoped you had left DU altogether or confined yourself to threads I don't participate in. That probably disappoints you, but I'm not going to lie about it to make you feel better.

In any case, I have no theory that these guys gang-raped the accuser, and if you weren't so wrapped up in your own agenda you would have realized that a long time ago. Once again, I challenge you to find just ONE post where I have indicated these guys are guilty. You never will take me up on that challenge since I NEVER indicated that, and therefore, you won't find one. I'm getting quite tired of your accusations about some supposed agenda of mine. I have also repeatedly said that WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS... and once again for the reading impaired - WE DON'T KNOW WHAT THE EVIDENCE IS. Therefore, we can't claim whether or not it exists.

I have no doubt you will continue to make these same accusations in other posts as you have done repeatedly all along. When it comes to false accusations, you have shown yourself to be quite a master at it yourself considering you have repeatedly accused me of believing/assuming that the accused are guilty despite my repeatedly refuting that and challenging you to prove it which you can't do... kind of ironic considering your false accusation agenda concerning the accuser in the Duke case.

Now, if you have anything further to say to me PERSONALLY, kindly do it in a PM where it belongs. The only reason I haven't alerted on your post is because as you DID bring up a stalking allegation publically I thought it should be responded to publically. However, this is the one and only freebie I'm going to graciously allow.

[NaturalHigh]

119. No, I have nothing to say to you personally.

We are obviously on different sides in this case. I have no reason to believe that we would come any closer to agreeing about anything else.

My belief that the Duke players are innocent and that the accuser is lying is repugnant to you. Your belief that the players are guilty and that the accuser in this case should be taken at her word, regardless of the evidence, is repugnant to me.

Fair enough.

[TorchTheWitch]

175. Then don't

If you have nothing personal to say to me then don't say it. DUH. It's obvious why your post was deleted. Nuff said.

:freak:

[LostinVA]

141. Even though the ER doctor and SANE says she was raped?

[pnwmom]

149. Saying that she had signs "consistent with being raped" isn't a

determination of rape. That's up to the court, as I understand it.

It also doesn't tell us the when, where, and who.

[jberryhill]

59. Clearly?

The actual report clearly has the word "bathroom" where the article has the word "bedroom".






Looks like "bethroom" to me.

[DubyaSux]

29. I hate to admit this...

...on DU, but my son is 21 and I haven't seen him since he was 13 for this type of crap.

My ex-wife did everything she could to ruin the relationship between me and my son, so in a hearing, she claimed I allowed my son to be "raped and molested" by an 11 year old cousin of his (yes- younger and much smaller). It was a complete fabrication, but I would have had to drag my son and his cousin through an open court to refute the charges. The burden was on me to prove the charges were not true. Because this bogus charge was effective, I knew it was only a matter of time that she would accuse me of the same crap. So, against the wishes of my attorney, I relinquished custody of my son and haven't seen him since. I did not want to put my new wife and daughter through the pain of me being accused of something when there are tons of people, just like here on DU, that will accept a bullshit story and paint me as a monster forever. After you've been accused, it really doesn't matter if you're guilty or not anymore. The damage has been done.

So, to you people leaping to unfathomable conclusions in the face of no evidence, this is why it's in the media. False accusations are an effective tool, easily accepted by the public, hard to prosecute, and happens everyday. I'm a living breathing example of it. It destroys your life and waters down the claims of the real victims of sexual abuse. Nifong granted 70+ interviews to make a case in the public court. He claimed DNA would prove things and claimed the evidence would be conclusive. 70 times. Now he's silent after providing 1300 pages of documentation with no evidence and clear deviations from procedure (toxicology report, bogus police lineup, etc.).

I'm not saying these guys are innocent, but false accusations are too easy to make and too hard to refute. If it gets to the point of one word against the other, the person making the bogus claim will not be prosecuted because it's hard to find evidence of a lie. Nifong owes the public and the defense attorneys conclusive proof of their guilt because he started the trial there.

[chookie]

44. That's a heartbreaking story

I am so sorry for you -- you have been done a grave injustice by a false accuser. You'll never have that part of your life back....

I know two men who have been similarly victimized. In one case, during a divorce, his wife accused him of sexually molesting their daughter. For custody? Punishment? The case dragged on for years, drowning this man in the stigma of committing such a horrific crime. He was eventually aquitted, but at a terrible cost.

A man I know well -- a prominent scientist, who happens to be a sweet man -- was accused of subjecting his daughter to brutal rape and sexual abuse repeatedly during her childhood. It's bizarre -- she was extremely overweight, and fell in with a group of people who convinced her that her weight was the result of comfort eating because of a traumatic event in her past which she was now suppressing. She went to a "therapist" who pretty much coached her to have false memories of brutal sexual attacks by her father. With this band of zealots as her support group, she pressed charges against her father. It was shocking to all of us who knew him, and utterly devastating to him. The case dragged on for years, and the jury decided this was a coached false memory case, and his name was cleared, but, again, at a terrible cost.

I think it is admirable that persons would seek to comfort the victims of crimes, but a lot of what we are seeing in this case is irrational zealotry and idealogy-driven madness. The stories being concocted to counter the facts that are coming out about this case, which seem to refute the charges -- are increasingly bizarre.

The difference between me and the "progressive" wackos on a witchhunt against males and the wealthy is that -- if the facts of the case demonstrate that the accuser was likely attacked, I will concur with the evidence; but if the facts of the case demonstrate that the accuser has made a false charge, the zealots who are supporting her will continue to maintain that she was in fact raped, and that some massive racist anti-woman patriarchal elitist conspiracy was at work in the judgement, and they will continue to persecute the accused, perhaps with vigilante violence (as the New Black Panthers have suggested they might undertake).

It pains me to say so, but the drivel being produced on this case by those who consider themselves to be "liberals" (IMHO they are knee-jerk authoritarians) are going to give us struggling lefties a black eye -- at a time before a critical election which will shape the balance of power in Congress. It's highly unlikely that the massive numbers of Americans whose faith has been shaken in the Republican party and who WANT change are going to find Democrats more attractive, because these irrational extremists associate themselves with our party. It makes my head spin that Americans will choose Republicans, who have their own minority element of wacko extremists, over Democrats, because they are more palatable than our minority of extremists.

[DubyaSux]

45. In my case...

...it was a custody battle.

I had joint custody after our divorce was final. But when I met a woman who would become my wife, my ex went psycho. She decided to punish me by filing for complete custody and to show how bad of a father I was, used this type of accusation as justification. I laughed at first because it was so absurd, that nobody would listen.

But that's not how it works. Once that claim is made, it is incumbent on the accused to prove their innocence. These types of charges required no evidence to move forward. Obviously, a ruling requires evidence, but the filings, motions, depositions, etc require none. I could have fought and probably won, but had I lost even partial custody for this type of claim, the next bullshit claim would have more "credibility" because of the previous. And this has nothing to with the embarrassment of putting my son through the entire process.

Again, this charge wasn't against me, but the ease of which false claims can be made regarding sexual assault is astounding. In losing my son, I got off lucky. There are people on the sexual predator list who were likely innocent, but pled to a charge so even worse punishment were avoided. It's very hard to prove a negative, so the accuser's testimony in these types of cases can make or break a case.

[laureloak]

100. A friend of mine was a teacher who was also accused of

molesting a boy. We all know it was a compete fabricaton by the boy, but my friend ended up losing his job and spent all of his life savings trying to clear his name. He's been withdrawn into a depression for several years now. unable to work. He has a wonderful family that supports him completely but it has so very difficult and heartbreaking for all of them.

[zann725]

32. Really "unconscious" people...or rape-drugged & traumatized people?

Their response WOULD BE different...

Unless the theory 'HOLDS' all rape victims, and incest survivors lie. As it appears ALL Michael Jackson's victims "lied." As did Kobe Bryant's victim, etc., etc.

[atomicdawg38]

33. I don't think you understand.....

"When I used it , the female began mouth-breathing, which is a sign that she was not really unconscious," he wrote. "My experience is that unconscious people wake up rather quickly when exposed to ammonia capsules.

I believe the police officer meant that when he applied smelling salts to arouse the AV she began mouth breathing and appeared to him to not really be unconscious. That makes sense. An unconscious person would not begin mouth breathing to avoid the effect of the ammonia.

:)

[Joe Chi Minh]

39. How do you know the officer wasn't lying? Particularly in view of

TorchTheWitch's comments on their statements.

It seems highly likely to me that that procedure - checking if the person breathes naturally, when ammonia is produced, or only through their mouth - is likely to be a ploy taught at police college, or in any event, could have been picked up on in another case, and trotted out here.

Of course, until TorchThe Witch's points have been adequately addressed, such a surmise on my part, too, could only be viewed as speculative, although her post would seem to strongly indicate that my surmise would be based on firmer grounds than the series of dismissive blandishments from you and your friends concerning the likelihood of the frat boys' culpability.

[IndianaGreen]

49. Yeah, everybody lies but the accuser.

Since there is no toxicology report, it will not be admissible in court for the prosecution to allege that the accuser was given a date rape drug, as he did on one of his many press conferences Nifong held before the elections.

Nifong won't have DNA evidence to bolster his case. The state lab found no DNA match to any of the players. The private lab that Nifong hired in desperation, only shows a partial match in a fake fingernail that was in the waste basket of a bathroom.

Then there is the accuser's photo identification of defendant Evans, a 90% certainty according to Nifong, in which Evans would look like the alleged assailant if he had a mustache. None of the players in the photos taken at the party have any sort of facial hair. Duke team did not have facial hair. Any speculation by Nifong that Evans wore a fake mustache will also be not admissible as evidence since no fibers of a fake mustache were ever found, and there is no statement by Kim Roberts that any of the players had a mustache.

I don't know how Nifong is going to explain the timeline of the alleged rape when he tries to implicate Reade Seligmann, particularly in view of the time stamp in the ATM machine, the ATM video, the cab driver's own statements to the press, etc.

[Joe Chi Minh]

51. So much for the attention you paid to TorchTheWitch's post, in

response to another poster, in which she observed the following:

"You've seen the DNA tests? You know that there are no partial ID's in those tests? No you don't. And lets not forget that only a small percentage of DNA tests can positively ID anyone to have had any kind of sex with someone consensual or otherwise... you like to forget that I've noticed. You also don't know who's pubic hair was found on her that the defense has been so silent about but we know exists... but you can bet that Nifong knows. There's all kinds of evidence we don't know about because nobody (especially the defense) wants you to know. Congratulations that you are reacting EXACTLY as the defense hoped you would with their typical campaign of poisoning the jury pool. How does it feel to be used and duped by them?"

"Yeah, everybody lies but the accuser."

How ironical that you should make that claim. We've just been reading posts by individuals who, like you, were totally unaware of their grotesquely confident assumption that Old Bill was on the level and the girl was the fantasist, despite their somewhat irregular treatment (to put it mildly) of a young woman claiming to that she had been raped; not to speak of the hideous record of police in the South going so far as to rail-road innocent black men to execution for a murder they knew they didn't commit. Nor, apparently, could the prison officials, judiciary and politicians be persuaded to check evidence that proved their innocence.


You sure have a very right-wing faith in the probity of the police in their dealings with minorities! I've just been reading Hunter S Thompson's report on the murder by the Los Angeles Sheriff's Department death-squad of the overly conscientious Chicano journalist, Ruben Salazar. And for that matter, how about Reuben Carter's fit-up? It's virtually an immutable law in the UK, as well. The police have an extremely racist culture, and nobody's going to change it any time soon, though they'll sure make the appropriate noises. Indeed, is it not why OJ was the beneficiary of a bizarre-seeming acquittal? None so blind as those that will not see.

[jberryhill]

57. Speaking of biased views...

You sure have a very right-wing faith in the probity of the police in their dealings with minorities!

Meet Chief Steven W. Chalmers of the Durham PD:



...and tell me again about the probity of the Durham PD relative to minorities.

Regale me with your deep knowledge of the racial make-up of the Durham PD force.

[Joe Chi Minh]

82. So you think that because Chalmers is an African American,

he would be sure to put his foot down really hard on any racists in his force, eh? Just like Kenneth Blackwell would have recoiled in horror at any suspicion of suppression of the votes of African Americans in Ohio. If that's the best you can do, really...! As if the African American subordinates of both of them would resign from their jobs in a flash, rather than close ranks with their colleagues, whatever their color...

The reality is that the police are like the military, they close ranks. When identity parades were held in my regiment in Germany concerning a rape, a lot of lads were absent from the identity parade. It just wasn't taken seriously.

While common sense counsels me to mistrust the alleged rapists, more than the African American dancer, if only because they are rich, white and Southern, and defended with amazing alacrity but minimal information by you characters, I'm keeping an open mind on this, because it makes no sense to jump to conclusions when so much more information is going to come out in due course.

If what was concerned was the testimonies of the same racial types in the matter of a mugging in a black ghetto, my suspicions would be reversed. As that African American comedian observed, when he's drawing money from a cash-point, he's not looking over his shoulder for the media. Horses for courses.

At the end of this case, a judgement may still have to be made, as to what seem reliable facts, what seems less reliable information and what seems patently false. But from the word go, I've noticed you nuts come out swinging at the alleged victim. and I don't doubt for one minute it's because she's black. The opening words of a post of one, NaturalHigh, below, say it all for me: "Not wise to piss off a couple of hookers with a criminal record...".

This mad rush to condemn the girl as a liar and clear the frat boys of guilt, clearly indicates that you have a deeply tribal mindset. That is not always a bad thing on a natural level, but if any of you are Christians you'd better force yourself to transcend it in a situation like this. "Who is my mother? Whoever does the will of my Father in Heaven is my mother, my father, my brother, my sister...". And that means whether he or she is black, white or brindle.

[jberryhill]

90. You are obviously addressing someone else

and I had no idea that being from New Jersey is now "southern".

I'll make a note of that.

You call people with whom you disagree "you characters" and "you nuts"; you condemn an entire police force; you judge other people's presumed religious beliefs; you imply that others are racists because they are skeptical of a government official; and have the gall to criticize what you call a "mad rush to condemn" someone about whom I haven't said boo.

Sticking up for the police, which is what I did in response to your post, and just as a point of reference for you, is supporting the prosecution side of this thing.

I mean, in reference to your question "How do you know the officer wasn't lying?", I certainly don't know whether the entire town of Durham and the student body of Duke consists of pathological and habitual liars. But, good golly, if the Durham PD is now in the whole conspiracy to cover this thing up, then this case is really not going to go much of anywhere.

What a bizarre little religion you have going on there.

[IndianaGreen]

91. You guys still have no evidence to convict these men of rape

and you are all quite good at talking a lot about anything but the known facts in the case, and speculating about all sort of theories that can explain the rape within the known timeline, and that supports the accuser's latest version of events.

I hope you all like the taste of crow, because that's what many of you will be forced to eat as this case falls apart during the trial. I wouldn't even be surprised if the judge dismisses the charges against one or more of the defendants after the prosecutor presents his "evidence."

[TorchTheWitch]

95. And you have no evidence that she wasn't raped

and raped by the accused. NONE. You and everyone else not directly involved in this case has any evidence whatsoever that proves she wasn't raped and raped by the accused. Yet, you are one of the ones that have already CONCLUDED she wasn't raped. None of the rest of us have made any conclusions one way or the other because we rightfully recognize that we can't possibly have enough information in order to do so. If anyone is going to eat any crow it will be you and your ilk who have accused the AV of lying without the facts if this case is won by the prosecution. Those of us that haven't made any conclusions since we can't aren't going to be eating any crow because we HAVEN'T come to any conclusions one way or the other.

When this case is either won or lost by the prosecution and assuming they do lose it, who are you going to be serving up crow to since there hasn't been anyone that has claimed the accused are guilty? What a waste of perfectly good piping hot crow.

Again, the only people in danger of the possibility of eating crow in this forum are the ones that have claimed the AV is lying since the rest of us haven't come to any conclusion one way or the other.

[IndianaGreen]

98. Reade Seligmann wasn't even there, and Evans had no mustache ever!

Let's see how the court rules on the following motion. I will point out that this motion is based on the evidence released by Nifong under discovery:

Defense: Accuser Initially Failed To ID Duke Lacrosse Player

POSTED: 7:36 pm EDT May 26, 2006
UPDATED: 8:04 pm EDT May 26, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- The woman who has accused three Duke University men's lacrosse players of raping her failed to identify at least one of them in a photo array eight days after the reported attack, then selected him as an attacker more than two weeks later, according to a motion filed Friday by defense lawyers.

The motion filed on behalf of Dave Evans, 23, of Bethesda, Md., asks a judge handling the case to force prosecutors to provide narrative reports on a photo lineup conducted with the accuser on March 21, as well as an earlier lineup done March 16. The woman said the players hired her as a stripper for a March 13 party at Evans' off-campus house and then raped her.

According to the motion, the accuser met with investigators on April 4 to again view photos, which is when she identified Evans. Durham police videotaped that session. Prosecutors provided a copy of the tape to defense lawyers last week, along with nearly 1,300 pages of evidence.

"He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me, sort of," the accuser tells police officers in pointing out Evans, according to the motion. She then says she would be 90 percent sure of the identification if the man had a mustache, the motion said.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9282986/detail.html

[pnwmom]

111. This is a little odd.

From your post:

"A handwritten narrative report by Sgt. J.C. Shelton that is attached to the motion says the accuser first reported being raped after officers had decided to involuntary commit her.
"Officers initially encountered her in a supermarket parking lot and had to use ammonia capsules to rouse her from a parked car, according to court documents.
"The woman then reportedly told officers that she was groped by some of the men who pulled her from a car, but was not forced to have sex. According to Shelton, the accuser then told a doctor examining her for evidence of rape that she had been raped."

This makes it sound as if the doctor began examining her for rape BEFORE she stated that she had been raped. Could the examination itself have given her the idea to say she had been raped? Because she didn't want to be involuntarily committed? Being in a drugged or drunken state, perhaps she didn't think through the possible consequences.

[jberryhill]

114. chronology

Shelton's report says that she told him directly that nobody forced her to have sex. Then, he is later "told" that she had made that allegation to the SANE. The point in time that she spoke to the SANE is not clear relative to the various points in time that she spoke to Shelton, from Shelton's report.

But that was all at the hospital. She initially stated she had been raped at Durham Access, where she was going to be held involuntarily. They sent her to Duke Hospital after she told them that.

Did Kim Roberts mention the part about the victim being pulled from the car and groped?

[pnwmom]

136. I don't know. Do you?

[TorchTheWitch]

176. You don't know that

Seligmann was indeed there as there is a photo taken of him at the party. Since we don't know what the REAL timeline is in this case, whatever his alibi is is immaterial. That's been pointed out to you often enough but you just keep ignoring it. Wonder why.

As for Evans having a mustache or not, how do you know he didn't? Did you hang out with him that day or the day before? You've seen a photo of him from that day or the day before that is varified to have been taken at that time? No, you haven't. All you know is that the defense says he never had a mustache. THEY don't even know if he had a mustache or not since THEY didn't see him either. Although I doubt he would have applied a false one to disguise himself, he COULD have, so any claims as to him not having a mustache at any time during the party are immaterial.

In the first ID she was TOLD she shouldn't feel that she had to ID anyone. That's right in the form that she signed that's an exhibit to a defense motion. Did you not read that part?

Now, compare the photo she was shown at that time and another one of Evans that shows how he looks now...




Any reasonable person could look at that lacrosse photo of Evans in his uniform and not be sure it was him at all. Personally, I thought it was an unflattering photo of Seligmann until I read the story attached to it. Since she is only supposed to ID a photo when she is certain it's the right person, and she's not obligated to ID ANY photo is it any wonder that she didn't? I wouldn't have either. I don't think this photo of Evans looks like him at all. The eyes in particular look totally different.

[jberryhill]

193. self delete

answered my own question.

[pnwmom]

110. In our system, it is not up to the defense to prove that she wasn't raped.

It is not up to the defense to prove that the students are innocent. It IS up to the prosecution to prove that they are guilty, beyond a reasonable doubt.

And with a defective photo-lineup, at best a partial DNA (from the wastebasket in the student's bathroom), a second dancer who wasn't aware that a rape took place, at least one student with a very strong alibi, and a drunk or drugged accuser who acknowledged having sex with three other men in a short period of time (which could explain the results in the SANE report) . . . it's going to be awfully hard for the prosecutor to get over that standard of "reasonable doubt."

[Moosepoop]

126. You're right, it's up to the prosecution to establish guilt.

All the evidence you listed is debatable as far at the worth of each individual piece is concerned.

The "defective" photo line-up may or may not be admitted into court.

The partial DNA may or may not carry much weight with a jury, if admitted.

The second dancer being unaware of the rape taking place when it happened, if it did happen, is immaterial. She wasn't in a position to know.

One student's "very strong alibi" may or may not be all that strong at the end of the day.

The impairment of the accuser may cast doubt on her ability to recall events correctly, but the SANE report will tell its own story. I'm withholding judgment on that until the actual, full contents of the report are known. Having had sex with three other men recently "may" explain the SANE results, or may not. Depends on what all is in the report.

Now, if all of the above is all the prosecution has to work with, it will perhaps be an uphill battle for a conviction. I do think that the prosecutor has a bit, or a lot, more than that, though. I also think that the defense knows exactly what THEY'RE up against, but they aren't letting the public in on that.

[BrownOak]

137. Summed Up in Two Sentences

Now, if all of the above is all the prosecution has to work with, it will perhaps be an uphill battle for a conviction. I do think that the prosecutor has a bit, or a lot, more than that, though. I also think that the defense knows exactly what THEY'RE up against, but they aren't letting the public in on that.

That about covers it right there. We don't know what the prosecution has, although they claim to the court that they have turned over everything they presently have. So the defense may know what the prosecution has, but so far we've heard only a fraction of what was in there. And what we've heard has been defense leaks that have not been verified by any third party.

However, judging by the behavior of both sides, it's easy to think or believe what you want about the relative strength or weakness of their position. If you're inclined to think the prosecution has a weak case you could justify that by citing the irregularities with Nifong's investigation. Intentionally using flawed ID lineups, attempting to interview represented suspects without their attorneys present, threatening to rescind all deferred prosecution deals for those who could prove they weren't at the party, the bail deal with Kim Roberts, the arrest of the cab driver on an old warrant are all things that don't scream out confidence in his case.

On the other side of the coin, the defense's constant leaks and disclosures can be viewed as an attempt to use public pressure to get Nifong to drop the case rather than take it to trial.

[pnwmom]

138. Honestly, do you think the photo lineup should be admitted?

And if it was, would it carry a lot of weight with you as a juror? When it consisted of nothing but pictures of team members who likely were at the party?

Even though each piece is debatable separately, all those doubts add together. And so far, we haven't seen one really strong piece of evidence, have we?

For example, if we had gotten a clear DNA match I'd feel completely different about this. And yes, in the past, DNA matches weren't possible, but rapes have always been hard to prove. (I'm not saying they're not real, just hard to prove.) Without the DNA, all the other elements have to be stronger -- but they aren't.

I think the prosecutor might very well be aware that these three didn't commit any rape. But he's willing to hold these charges over their heads for a year, hoping one of them will give evidence on someone else. On the other hand, no one's DNA has shown up. Maybe the prosecutor just wants all the media interest to go away before he drops the charges.

[Joe Chi Minh]

124. I'd prefer to eat crow than know that a young woman was raped

by the progeny of an unusually degenerate class of Americans - the rich.

I describe them thus with a broad brush, it's true, but it is broadly true, nevertheless, with regard to the monied Republicans and the monied Democrats, alike, though less so the latter and the best of the old-school Republicans.

I hope you are right about the facts being on your side, but that is not apparent from TorchTheWitch's take on the way in which the police have conducted their investigation. But then, she's only a dancer, herself, isn't she? Not a rich pimp, so respectable in their own purblind eyes, screwing the last dime out of their fellow-countrymen and women, and paying to watch exotic dancers degrade themselves to survive. I doubt if that's the case with TorchTheWitch, but your far-right, market-driven culture isn't propitious to sartorial modesty.

[jberryhill]

128. Pretty Good

So in one post you manage to call a class of Americans "degenerates" and you state that what TorchTheWitch does for a living is degrading.

Wow.

Is there anyone you like?

(I see you edited to add the "I doubt that's the case" thing. So are you saying she isn't degrading herself to survive, or just degrading herself recreationally? Or that exotic dancing is only "degrading" under certain circumstances?)

[Name removed]

159. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[jberryhill]

161. Where did you learn to "write"?

I gather I am going to Hell because I don't take a government official's words at face value.

Other than that, I'm sure my ancestors didn't invite yours to "discover" America, much less "bend" it.

[pnwmom]

109. I don't know who is telling the truth in this case, and because of the

mishandling of the case by the prosecutor and the police, I doubt that we'll ever know to anyone's satisfaction.

But I don't think it is fair to trust the students less because they are "rich, white, and southern" than I would if they were poor, black, and from the ghetto.

And I don't think that women are less capable than men of doing something wrong.

And I don't think we should be taking sides on this case based on rape statistics.

I think this case should be judged purely on the evidence, which at this point seems pretty flimsy. Maybe the prosecutor will prove me wrong. Hopefully he's got a lot more than has come out so far . . . but if he does, then why delay justice for another year?

[Joe Chi Minh]

122. Exactly.

[LostinVA]

145. She may NOT have been unconscious

Just really "drugged" or traumatized and this semi-cataonic... but gave the appearance of "faking" it, so she did mouth breathe. This doesn't mean she was faking anything, just that the officer had judged her as a drunk or what vere, and thus got the response he "expected" in such a situation... but that wasn't the situation. He was wrong. He saw what he wanted to see... or anticipated he would see.

[bettyellen]

41. story changed story..... bedroom, bathroom... whatever, huh guys?

that was pretty half assed reporting.

[jberryhill]

56. If you actually look at the hand-written report by Sgt. Shelton...

The "a" in bathroom looks more like an "e". As written in the source document, it looks like it says "bethroom".

[Moosepoop]

60. No it doesn't.

It looks like what it is -- an "a".

And even if the "a" DID look more like an "e", the "th" sure doesn't look much like a "d", now does it? The word that was handwritten in the report is clearly "bathroom". The article quoted it as being "bedroom".

It was sloppy reporting or editing. Or both.

[jberryhill]

61. It looks like this...

And, incidentally, Shelton's report is included as the last three pages of this motion:

www.wral.com/download/2006/0526/9282538.pdf

I rotated it 90 degrees in Adobe Acrobat, exported to .jpg, and cropped to the relevant section.

It would look more like "bedroom" if it had a mustache.

[Moosepoop]

64. Hey, thanks for posting it.

Now everyone can see that the word is "bathroom". :applause:

[pnwmom]

71. Now everyone can read the whole 21 pages. It's interesting reading,

particularly the information about the two or three photo lineups. Did you know that before the April lineup, when the third defendant was picked out, the accuser saw his picture in at least one other lineup and denied that he was one of the assailants?

[bettyellen]

80. doesn't look like bedroom at all to me, looks like sloppy reporting is all

tks for that, J!

[Marie26]

81. Thanks for posting

It would indeed need a fake moustache to make that word look like "bedroom." I read that post first w/o seeing the whole thread & still instantly recognized it as bathroom. So, the question becomes why the cop would say something different that his own statement; or how such blatant error made it into a news story.

[TorchTheWitch]

96. lame excuse

In comparing how this officer writes his "a"'s and "e"'s, the word he wrote is very clearly "bathroom". Even if one did not compare how he writes those letters in other words where they appear, there is no way that a "th" would be confused as a "d". Therefore, even the most idiotic journalist would not be able to assume the word was "bedroom" rather than "bathroom". It's ridiculously clear.

[atomicdawg38]

97. Ummmm....

I'm pretty sure some of the posters are confusing the police report(which states bathroom) and the defense filing (where apparently she stated bedroom). The second link in the OP has it.

:)

[Marie26]

101. The police report

It seems like the officer himself is confused. The police report says "bathroom", but in his interview, Shelton said "She told me she did not want to talk to me anymore and then started crying and saying something about them dragging her into the bedroom." Either he got it wrong or he was misquoted.

[jberryhill]

117. Or the reporter's notes weren't clear

but I'm still trying to grasp the significance of the point. I didn't bother to read the article, since Shelton's report is available.

[Moosepoop]

121. The significance of the point is

that this thread in LBN was started with a news article that is, in itself, inaccurate.

It has been pointed out that the article that this thread is based on was written poorly, containing misquotes and other oddities.

Therefore, a grain or fifty of salt should be taken when considering any of the "information" in this article, and in deriving any "meaning" from any of it.

It's a poorly written, poorly edited, inaccurate article. It has spawned an entire thread in "Latest Breaking News", but contains "news" that is flat-out wrong.

That's the point.

I'm trying to grasp the significance of commenting repeatedly in a LBN thread when you say yourself that you haven't even bothered to read the article in question. ???

[jberryhill]

125. The article is based on Shelton's report

So since the original source document is available (albeit in smaller handwriting and rotated 90 degrees from the clip I posted, making it harder to read), I was commenting on the source document.

To pick on the misquote of "bedroom" for "bathroom" in order to call the news report - i.e. that Shelton said she changed her story - "flat-out wrong" is absurd. You can read Shelton's report, and it says she changed her story. Various hypotheses have been proposed to account for what Shelton says, and I thought that the substance of the report was under discussion, and not some nit in the reporter's account.

[Marie26]

127. Someone is trying

to make it look like there are more discrepencies then there are. Whether that person is the reporter, or the officer, I think the report was misquoted to give the impression that the AV had also changed her mind on the location of the assault. This error was contained in a story about how the victim is changing her story, & it changes one other aspect of her initial story to police. I find it hard to believe that this was an innocent error. That's significant, and it casts doubt upon the rest of the story. Reporters have to make sure their quotes are accurate, especially when the quote has such potential importance. And, editors should have caught the discrepency in the quote & asked the reporter about it. It doesn't look like that happened here. Probably people should read the report itself instead of relying on this badly-written, snipped article.

[jberryhill]

130. Yup...

Probably people should read the report itself instead of relying on this badly-written, snipped article.

Agreed. That's why I skimmed it. As far as location goes - Shelton's report indicates the assault began when she was pulled from Roberts' car and groped. Apparently Roberts didn't notice that either.

[jberryhill]

58. Forgot the link....

http://www.wral.com/download/2006/0526/9282538.pdf

Last three pages. No need to rely on anyone's reporting.

[idgiehkt]

54. Another example, from LBN of how full of shit cops are:

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060527/ap_on_re_us/children_killed_2

This guy threw his kids and self off of 15th floor balcony. They are on vacation in FL from IL.

"There was no indication that he would be capable of doing something as horrible as this," (police spokesperson) Hernandez said.

HOW IN THE HELL DOES HE KNOW? Makes a real good story, doesn't it. Of course, he (dead dad) could have been beating the shit out of her and the kids every day for the past year, yet this is the line the cop sells to reporters. Why? Can it be true? Naw, baby. Only if someone put some PCP in his toothpaste, and how likely is that...

[TorchTheWitch]

102. That is so offensive

How bigoted to claim that cops are full of shit. Just like any other group of people there are bad ones and good ones. It's very offensive to read that you obviously don't believe there are any good officers. Yet, no doubt that if you ever needed one they'd be your best buddy when coming to your rescue.

Obviously, the officer knows a hell of a lot more about a case he investigated than you do. How in the world you can ask the question "How the hell does he know" is beyond me. He'd be in a position to know more than anyone else, particularly YOU.

And somehow you conclude that all suicide jumpers are on PCP. You don't realize how totally nuts that assumption is? Statistically, men kill themselves by hanging, shooting or JUMPING as their method of choice more than any other method. Look it up.

[IndianaGreen]

99. Defense: Accuser Initially Failed To ID Duke Lacrosse Player (Dave Evans)

Defense: Accuser Initially Failed To ID Duke Lacrosse Player

POSTED: 7:36 pm EDT May 26, 2006
UPDATED: 8:04 pm EDT May 26, 2006

DURHAM, N.C. -- The woman who has accused three Duke University men's lacrosse players of raping her failed to identify at least one of them in a photo array eight days after the reported attack, then selected him as an attacker more than two weeks later, according to a motion filed Friday by defense lawyers.

The motion filed on behalf of Dave Evans, 23, of Bethesda, Md., asks a judge handling the case to force prosecutors to provide narrative reports on a photo lineup conducted with the accuser on March 21, as well as an earlier lineup done March 16. The woman said the players hired her as a stripper for a March 13 party at Evans' off-campus house and then raped her.

According to the motion, the accuser met with investigators on April 4 to again view photos, which is when she identified Evans. Durham police videotaped that session. Prosecutors provided a copy of the tape to defense lawyers last week, along with nearly 1,300 pages of evidence.

"He looks like one of the guys who assaulted me, sort of," the accuser tells police officers in pointing out Evans, according to the motion. She then says she would be 90 percent sure of the identification if the man had a mustache, the motion said.

http://www.nbc17.com/news/9282986/detail.html

[Buzz Clik]

113. Oh, yes. The mustache.

The one that Duke lacrosse players are not allowed to wear as part of the team. The one Evans never had in any photo taken of him.

Yeah, that mustache.

[jberryhill]

123. You are confusing the two photo ID sessions

It was the second session in which Evans was ID'd with the hypothetical mustache.

In the first session, she didn't ID anyone.

The instructions on the Durham PD photo ID form say:

[LostinVA]

147. Evans isn't in any photos taken that night n/t

[pnwmom]

112. If the students were actually guilty of rape, wouldn't they be defending

themselves by saying they had consensual sex with her? If any of them knew they had raped her, wouldn't they expect there to be some physical evidence of sex, or signs of a struggle, or something to be overheard by the other dancer -- and so (to explain any damaging evidence) they would claim that any sex had been consensual?

Isn't that what a rapist might be expected to do, particularly in these circumstances, where the accuser is an stripper/escort?

And yet none of them has ever made this claim. All of them have been confident from the very beginning that the physical evidence wouldn't be there. They've even offered to take lie detector tests.

Is this really how three intelligent rapists of a stripper from an escort service would behave? If they were rapists, wouldn't they have said "sure we had sex with her; and afterwards she wanted more money and we said no."

[NaturalHigh]

120. I've said this all along.

Saying that they never even had sex with the accuser is a strange defense if they actually raped her. Condoms aren't a guarantee that no DNA evidence will be found in or on a rape victim.

[Marie26]

131. Consent is not a good defense here,

Based on the woman's injuries in the SANE report. & its consistency w/the woman's allegations. Not many women would consent to what was done to her. If they tried to claim that, they'd have to admit that the incident happened, & that bolsters the woman's story, and makes them look pretty guilty. A jury would then have to decide if she actually consented to being assaulted by three men, or if it was a rape. That's not a position that they want to be in, especially since the default (IMO) opinion will probably be that this was an assault. Even if this happened, they had to just boldly deny it, & hope the case goes away. Even if this happened, they probably never thought she'd bring a complaint at all. She's "just a stripper," after all. It's easier to paint her as a liar than trying to claim that this incident was consensual. Don't forget, they had a couple days to possibly dispose of evidence before police ever came to search the house. There's stuff we know she left behind that no one has found (the shoe, the money, etc.)

[jberryhill]

132. "Based on the woman's injuries in the SANE report"

Is there any specific direct-sourced information on those injuries?

I understand there was some anonymous-sourced account of the SANE report, which is not worth reliance one way or the other, but your post indicates there must have been something about the injuries elsewhere.

Money WAS recovered (http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0329061duke5.html)

Shelton's report also says that he observed three large trash bags outside of the house. There is no indication that those trash bags were there when the warrant was executed and/or that anything was recovered from them.

[Marie26]

135. It's in one of the warrants

- The SANE's report stated that the AV had injuries consistent with being anally and vaginally assaulted. Meaning, she had noticeable vaginal and anal injuries, as well as the bruises & cuts. That's not typical consensual sex, which usually does not produce such injuries. The defense would have to admit to the incident w/3 lacrosse players, admit that the injuries she sustained (noted by the SANE) were a result of that incident, but still claim it was consensual. That's not a very strong position, IMO. (The SANE's findings were included in the e-mailing player's search warrant). http://www.thesmokinggun.com/archive/0405061duke4.html

- Not ALL the money was found - $160 dollars in 20-dollar-bills was recovered at the house, but the AV said $400 dollars in 20's was stolen from her. Where's the rest of the money? Wouldn't that pretty much be the break-down if the $400 dollars was split 3 ways? Just sayin.. The search warrant also lists the items to be seized as including her wallet, her purse, and her shoe. None of these were recovered at the scene.

- I noticed that too about the 3 trash bags. He saw them outside when he first visted the house on the night of the assault. But there's no indication that they were there 2 days later when the search warrant was executed. Now, that's not inherently suspicious, but it does mean the trash bags were removed & not searched by police. What was in those trash bags? We'll probably never know.

[jberryhill]

139. That's why I asked about "direct-sourced"

The search warrant affidavit is indirect.

You'll notice that the search warrant materials differ from Shelton's report in several respects.

Shelton's report states the victim said she was pulled from the car and groped on the spot. The search warrant affidavit says that there was an apology and both women re-entered the house and were separated. Bissey says he saw one woman go back to the house.

The search warrant affidavit further says that the victim reported the rape to the "officers" who responded to the call at the Kroger. Shelton's report says that she first reported that information to Durham Access, and obviously she wouldn't have been sent there had she reported in the manner that is suggested by the search warrant affidavit. Had she not made the report at Durham Access, she would have been kept there.

[Marie26]

143. I realize that

We're probably not going to see the actual SANE report before trial (and probably shouldn't see it). So, we've got to go on the search warrant, which contains a description of the findings (unless there's another source I'm unaware of). The police report does not mention the SANE's findings, so how does that have relevance here? You're focusing on lots of other different descriptions of events & eyewitness testimony, but I'm not sure what that has to do w/the SANE report. There's no discrepencies or conflicting versions there - it is what it is. The affidavit would include a description of the SANE's findings, based on the report itself. And those findings have not been disputed, as far as I know. And, based on those findings by an expert in the field, I think it would be difficult to claim consent here.

[jberryhill]

150. The relevance is this...

The police report does not mention the SANE's findings, so how does that have relevance here?

It's relevant for the following reason. There are two published indirect accounts of the SANE report, and those accounts conflict. That's why I don't have much of an opinion about what, specifically, is in the SANE report. Obviously, the defense leak of information about the SANE report is done for a reason, as is the indirect account of it for the purpose of obtaining a search warrant. Noting that the search warrant affidavit differs from Shelton's account of events is significant for the reason that if Shelton's account was glossed to the point of inconsistency in the search warrant affidavit, then I wonder what other details of the supporting material received similar treatment in the search warrant affidavit - i.e. the SANE report. So in looking at the search warrant affidavit generally, you have to take into account that either Shelton's own recorded recollection of the events is wrong, or that the search warrant affidavit includes some inaccuracies in detail in its summaries of the factual basis for the warrant.

And, again, that's NOT calling anyone a liar. The kind of a posteriori precision that seems to be demanded from retellings, recollections, and summaries, is not realistic. The exact nature of the injuries is going to be very important since, as noted, this case is not about consent, but involves a blanket denial of sexual contact of any kind between the defendants and the victim.

On the "comprehensive view of the facts" front, it is worth observing that Shelton's report leaves the victim alone with the two officers who took her to Durham Access, btw (also feeding my pet theory of her having been assaulted by someone she is afraid to ID).

[BrownOak]

142. Sort of a leap in logic there

The SANE's report stated that the AV had injuries consistent with being anally and vaginally assaulted. Meaning, she had noticeable vaginal and anal injuries, as well as the bruises & cuts. That's not typical consensual sex, which usually does not produce such injuries.

Without knowing the exact nature of those injuries, how can you determine if they are or are not typical of consensual sex? All you know at this point is that a SANE nurse identified them as consistent with sexual assault, but you do not know if they are inconsistent with any other type of activity. If in fact the injuries are limited to the bruising as the defense leaks are claiming then it would be interesting to see what the experts have to say, especially in light of the three different men she named as well as what may or may not have happened in those 5 client visits over the previous weekend.

[Marie26]

146. Because it isn't

At some point, I'm going to go into a long, detailed description of exactly why it isn't. It'll be like a sex ed class. Normal consensual sex does not usually produce those types of injuries. It's possible, but not typical. Therefore, I don't think it's a good defense to: say that this woman had anal & vaginal injuries consistent w/an assault, and she had bruises and cuts, and she was unconcious, incoherent & hysterical at the scene, and she said it was a rape that night, and this involved three different lacrosse players, and her money & purse were left at the scene, but it was all consensual. It's weak, IMO. If this assault happened, they're better off just claiming she made it up, especially if they were able to dispose of physical evidence.

[BrownOak]

153. Let's be precise

At some point, I'm going to go into a long, detailed description of exactly why it isn't. It'll be like a sex ed class. Normal consensual sex does not usually produce those types of injuries.

What type of injuries? All we know is the summary of the report, not the details.

Again, hypothetically speaking, if the defense leak stating the injuries were limited to edema, are you saying that this could not be found in a woman who had engaged in numerous sexual acts in the preceding days?

[pnwmom]

155. But if they raped her -- but didn't have to use much physical force --

how would they know of her injuries? Why couldn't the injuries have occurred before she got there?

And coming off of drugs and/or alcohol could account for much of her behavior. We'll never know if they didn't do a tox screen.

[pnwmom]

151. Why would the defense "have to admit to the incident" if the students

didn't rape her? Or have any kind of sex with her?

But suppose they had sex with her in a drugged state. That's rape, even if no force is used. A common defense for a real rapist in that situation (little or no physical force) is to claim consensual sex (expecting that some evidence of sex would show up). As for the injuries, it's true that a rapist would be less likely to claim consensual sex IF he knew there would be injuries. But these students may not have known about the injuries -- they could have happened before she ever got there, when she was with someone else. We do know that she had sex with three other men. One of them could have gotten violent with her.

[pnwmom]

133. I've never seen the actual SANE report. Is it out there somewhere?

I heard that it describes edema, but no tears or abrasions. Is that true? If it were true, I would think that the swelling could simply be attributed to her having had consexual sex with the three other guys in that period. I don't know what else was "done to her." Are you talking about something specific? Again, I haven't seen the actual SANE report.

I read that there were bruises that showed up in photos of her dancing before the rape. Suppose these boys raped her but because she was so drunk, little physical force was involved. It was rape, but they wouldn't have expected bruises on her body -- if someone else had caused them. And frankly, they might not have noticed bruises on her legs either. They had other things to look at.

As far as money left behind -- the other dancer could have taken it. The one who was sober. Why would she have just left it back there for the guys to keep?

And if they were disposing of evidence, why didn't they throw out the stuff in the wastebasket in the bathroom?

[jberryhill]

140. No

...and that is problematic, since a lot of the discussion revolves around inferences about what is or is not in the report.

As far as bruises go, Shelton reports that she fell down in the Kroger parking lot as well.

[Marie26]

148. There's no released copies, AFAIK

As to inferences, I'm not infering what the SANE's report said, I'm just repeating the findings exactly as it stated in the search warrant. W/o the report itself, that is the best evidence of what the findings were. And what exactly is with all this falling? She's falling on the stoop, falling at the Kroger, becoming unconscious in the car, being incoherent at the parking lot, crying in front of the police officer. And all this from a woman who was apparantly acting normally when she arrived at the lacrosse house (according to the other dancer, and the neighbor, and the defense's own photos). What could cause such a change in a person in the space of an hour?

[pnwmom]

152. People who are drinking a lot and over their limit can easily change that

much in an hour. (I saw that at the last wedding I went to!) Or someone who did some drug in the car before she went into the house. It takes awhile before some things take effect.

Or she could have combined drugs and alcohol, and the combined effect took hold in the house.

I hope it's not true that no toxicology report was done, as I've been hearing. If so, that would be another failure on the State's part.

[Marie26]

154. I hope there's one too.

Because that can indicate if a date rape drug was used, or if no intoxicants at all were present. It can also indicate if the alcohol levels alone could account for her behavior. Just IMO, I find it sort of hard to believe that simple drinking could cause such a change. When she first left, she was still acting normally, according to the photos. The neighbor then saw her run back in to retrieve something (w/o obvious impairment). Then, 10-20 minutes later, she's passed out on the stoop, unresponsive, & unconscious in the car. That's a pretty drastic change in a very short period of time. Maybe she went back inside & did 20 shots, though you'd still expect a little more time to feel the full effects, and it seems unlikely to suddenly consume so much alcohol after going back to pick up an item. Or maybe something else happened. The toxicology report could help explain what exactly happened, & I really, really, hope one was done in this case.

[pnwmom]

156. She also could have downed several shots before she left the house

the first time, the effects of which kicked in after she returned. (She wouldn't have needed anything like 20 to reach that falling down state, especially if she had already arrived with some alcohol and no food in her system.)

So let's hope the toxicology report exists and helps to clear this up.

[jberryhill]

158. Responsiveness

Agreed, the various accounts of intoxication appear to be all over the map.

In the car, Shelton has her hanging onto the emergency brake with enough conscious intent to prevent forceful removal from the car, but then being unable to stand.

[NaturalHigh]

177. Logic is lost in this discussion.

The fact that having sex with three other guys in a short period of time before the exam could have affected the results is not supposed to be mentioned. That would be "smearing a rape victim."

:sarcasm:

[superconnected]

195. I can have sex with 10 men in one night, and it's perfect fine and legal.

I can also be raped by the 11th man I run into and don't agree to have sex with.

You ARE Smearing the victim by your attempt to make her look bad because she may have had sex with 3 guys. So what if she had sex with 20 guys. It's her perogative. It does not make her deserving of rape. It does not mean she is less likely to be raped.

It is only an attempt by you to smear the victim, while being sarcastic about smearing the victim.

SICKENING. Low, and sickening.

I wonder how long we have to listen to people such as you attack the rape victim - which was the point of your post.

[jberryhill]

196. That wasn't really the point...

Your point is well taken.

Here, the defendants are not claiming consent, they are claiming no contact.

Any prior behavior is not relevant on that issue.

There is tangential relevance, because, as posted elsewhere in the thread, we don't know *exactly* what physical observations were made by the SANE.

Again, whether a woman wants to have consensual sex with 20 guys has zero relevance on whether she was raped by guy 21. The problem in this case, where no contact is claimed by the defendants, is an apparent lack of corroborating physical evidence of contact.

The defense leak (and yes, consider the source) suggests there was vaginal swelling, and is silent on anal injury. Oddly, though, the defense motion suggests their copy of the SANE report is incomplete.

So, going back to your example, IF a woman had consensual sex with 20 guys, and guy 21's claim was "I never touched her", then the swelling might be accounted for by the prior consensual activity, and thus be of low value in providing physical corroboration of the claim. Conversely, more severe injuries would be of higher value in corroborating the claim.

The "smear" defense is to say "oh, she was a 'loose woman'" and therefore couldn't be raped. I don't see that here, so much as proposing alternative hypothesis based on the cryptic - and really non-existent - information about what, specifically, the SANE found in the way of injuries.

Given the sensitivities in the discussion, I hope the point is clear. Yes, you can have consensual sex with 20 guys and still be raped after that. But, yes, a physical examination is going to be affected by the consensual sex with 20 guys. That is the ONLY issue on which the prior consensual activity becomes relevant. Character of the victim is NOT an issue.

[superconnected]

197. Thank you.

That makes sense.

[NaturalHigh]

199. Nobody deserves to be raped...

and I think anybody convicted of rape deserves to be harshly punished. If however, the accuser in this case made a false accusation of rape, then she is not the victim here. The guys falsely accused are the victims, and the accuser deserves to be punished.

Pointing out that having sex with three other guys could affect the results of the SANE exam is not smearing anybody. If the accuser made a false accusation, that is what is sickening.

[zreosumgame]

157. *sigh* makes you wish for the old days

when if a woman turned up pregnant when she shouldn't be she could always just say "an Angel did it!" just like Gawd intended!

[pnwmom]

189. This article about local escort services supports everyone's point of view

It's got something for everybody -- testesterone driven, obnoxious students who may go over the line -- and strippers, sometimes using drugs and/or alcohol, who may provide more personal services in "outcalls."

http://abcnews.go.com/US/LegalCenter/story?id=1882072&page=4

ABC News also heard from strippers in the Durham, N.C., area, some of whom did "outcalls" — visits to in-house parties like the one held at the lacrosse house on March 13, the scene of an alleged rape that has generated national headlines.

SNIP

"There are different levels of "service" that most dancers — what they prefer to be called — provide. Those services range from $20 "no touching" lap dances at clubs — where burly bouncers keep everybody in line — to "outcalls," where women visit private homes, sometimes alone — and where the definition of service gets murky.

SNIP

"Alcohol and sometimes drugs are a common denominator in Summer and Cassidy's world. Both women said they went through periods in their dancing career where they took drugs, though that was a long time ago, they said. They work with one woman who supports her heroin habit by dancing.

"More than a month after the alleged attack at the Duke lacrosse party, the going rate at a Durham escort service was $250 to $300 for an hour and a half of female company — roughly the same as what Allure Escort Service charged the lacrosse team for the two dancers who showed up that night. Allure could not be reached for comment. Its publicly listed phone number was disconnected."

[jberryhill]

190. Nothing like good, hard news

...this is like those excuses for salacious "news reporting" like, "Tonight, News 11 goes undercover to investigate exploitation in the porn business". Of all of the interesting social angles on this thing, and a community in need of healing, good golly who needs this?

And, color me stupid, but "$300 for an hour and a half of female company"? Jiminy Christmas, my wife and I didn't pay that much to get married in Vegas.