Evidence in Probe of Iraqi Deaths Points Toward Murder by Marines

[LiberalHeart]

WASHINGTON (AP) -- Investigators believe their criminal investigation into the deaths of about two dozen Iraqi civilians points toward a conclusion that Marines committed unprovoked murders, a senior defense official said Friday. The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents.

More:
http://www.wtol.com/Global/story.asp?S=4955079

(Note to moderator: This is the investigation's side, not the defense side already posted.)

[Drum]

1. Semper fi. nt

[nealmhughes]

2. This story is serious enough for John Warner to make a statement

and the Commandant of the USMC is in Iraq right now reading the riot act to everyone in country. I hope the allegations aren't true. The US Marine Corps does not commit massacres as vengeance. I was on a submarine for six years and frequently dealt with Marines when on the tender and in Goose Creek, SC. A lot of sub sailors always made the standard "Dumb Jarhead" jokes. I would always buy the guys a round of beer and toast the Corps with one word, "Tarawa." We would be getting crab legs and ribeyes on Friday night while they might be incountry at any moment. Our idea of discomfort was going to ultra quiet which meant that there was no baking going on at midnight or the evaporator being shutdown resulting in no showers.
My uncle Herbert was killed by a Nazi in France leading a charge. My uncle Morris was killed on the ice in Korea by a Chinese soldier. I served six years. I think I have a right to a voice. I plead with all US military forces: Please obey the rules of war and don't let your frustration at being undermanned and out-IED'ed lead you into retaliation just because you don't know what else to do to avenge your brothers' deaths.

[Barrett808]

10. Thanks for this

And welcome to DU!

:hi:

[Dunvegan]

14. I appreciate your well-considered post. Thank you for your service.

Welcome to DU.

[ninkasi]

19. Your voice of reason

is greatly appreciated, and yes, you have a right to a voice. Welcome to DU, I look forward to reading more of your posts.

[zreosumgame]

21. no, the Corps does not do this

All it takes are a couple of people who should not be wearing the uniform to bring shame on all of us.

[Drum]

25. thank you! nt

[IndianaGreen]

27. Warner wants to blame the Marines and not the policy makers

responsible for the war and for keeping troops on active duty and serving on their second or third combat tour in a shithole of our own making.

[Roon]

3. Official: Marines could be charged with murder

WASHINGTON - Investigators believe that their criminal investigation into the deaths of about two dozen Iraqi civilians points toward a conclusion that Marines committed unprovoked murders, a senior defense official said Friday.

The Marine Corps initially reported 15 deaths and said they were caused by a roadside bomb and an ensuing firefight with insurgents. A separate investigation is seeking to determine if Marines lied to cover up the killings.

The official, who discussed the matter on condition of anonymity because he was not authorized to discuss the yet-to-be-completed investigation, said the evidence developed by investigators strongly indicates the killings last November in the insurgent-plagued city of Haditha in the western province of Anbar were unjustified.

http://msnbc.msn.com/id/12990567/

[TomInTib]

4. If they are charged with murder, then the entire DoD should be..

charged as accessories to the fact.

I have been in situations such as this one (Vietnam) and I cannot hold these poor troops solely responsible.

No way do I feel there was any kind of premeditation. This is no My Lai. Violent reaction under combat-related tension is just part of the terror of the moment.

edited due to my utter incapability to spell 'the'.

[Ripley]

6. Pardon me.

But Bullshit. These guys went into civilians homes and looked right at men, women and children, some sleeping and MURDERED THEM IN COLD BLOOD. Fuck this shit about giving them a pass. And the Marine Corp LIED ABOUT IT. So Yes, Everyone should be punished from Top Down.

[TomInTib]

13. I said nothing about "giving them a pass", just trying to put it in..

context.

Ever been in Close Quarters Combat? I have.

Your body does shit that your mind could never anticipate or plan.

These guys should be drummed out with dishonorable discharge.

I got the Navy Cross for my misdeeds and spent a lot of time hating myself. And I will carry that shit to my grave and down my own particular path to Hell. I deserve every bit of it.

While I am eternally sorry and full of regrets, I have never felt one pang of guilt. That may sound weird, but sheer terror has ways to fuck up your mind.

[Ripley]

15. Well, that old soldier Murtha disagrees with You.

How can You say it is not premeditated? It wasn't like they fired from a distance, not able to see their target. They walked into civilians homes. Looked right at Old Men sitting in a room with their grandchildren. Unarmed, non-threatening civilians. Then, they chose to shoot them until they were dead. Murtha believes it was more like 30 people.

I'm sorry for Your suffering, but I will never give anyone a pass for this Murder.

[TomInTib]

17. I am not saying it wasn't premeditated. But we shouldn't pre-judge

Insanity is still a defense in this country, last I checked.

Combat is the pinnacle of insanity.

I suppose I just have a different perspective on this.

[INDIA]

16. Wow, you must have been there!

"These guys went into civilians homes and looked right at men, women and children, some sleeping and MURDERED THEM IN COLD BLOOD."

I agree that the facts so far are pretty damning to the Marines involved, but it's pretty lame to formulate such a strong opinion when the facts are still coming out.

BRING EM HOME.

India3

[brokensymmetry]

8. I agree.

They put these young men into Hell. They offer
them minimal support, no real idea of when they
can get out, just an endless meatgrinder of fear
and death.

I'm surprised there hasn't been more of this. Maybe
there has been.

The real responsibility belongs to those who sent
them over there. And we all know who that is.

[central scrutinizer]

5. more scapegoats

how handy - just like the grunts who took the hit for Abu Ghraib. When the top is rotten, we shouldn't be surprised that some of the bottom is rotten as well.

[1620rock]

7. Support the troops my ass. eom

[BrightKnight]

32. Responsibility for this should go up the chain of command.

Officers are paid to assure that this kind of thing does not happen.

[HiFructosePronSyrup]

9. Could be.

But they'll get a slap on the wrist.

[Malva Zebrina]

18. well, it may have been "justified" after all one of their brothers was

killed in combat by a little three year old child who deserved to be shot in the head while she huddled with her mother on the floor, who was also shot in the head. Wow--how brave our Marines in this situation and no other child of three years old will ever think again of assaulting our Marines out of fear of retribution by the American bullet.

Defendingthe brotherhood of barbarians we send to kill and be killed, is justification for any kind of murder because it is "during wartime"and the enemy is three year old children, women and old men.

This "wartime" is a fake war, dreamed up by George Bush so he can claim fascist dictatorship and ride roughshod over his own people.a He has caused our troops to become animals with his Texas AWOL tough talk

Marine gone amuk? Sure and it is understandable? Sure, eh?

[INDIA]

22. "brotherhood of barbarians "??????

Thank you for playing right into the RW playbook. You are an idiot. Do you know how many DU'ers have sons/daughters/husbands in the military??? Seriously, think before you post.

[Malva Zebrina]

23. No I don't know, but what I do know is that I am entitled to my opinion

and if that opinion is going to be squelched because of pressure from this community, than it is not better than any of the right wing blogs and forums.

The murder of children by Marines gone amok is NOT defenseable and I am sure that there are people here in this community that apparently according to you has restrictions upon opinions offered that would agree with me.


I do NOT romanticize the military and I do NOT buy into a brotherhood or anything like it because, just because to do so would insult some here who have close to their hearts, people serving

Sorry--never will and never will bend over to the bare facts. The military is comprised of a population much like our own here in the US. There are good and there are bad-they are NOT all good simply because they are the military and not a one has been defending our freedoms since WW2-there are Bush supporters, there are killers, there are sensitive and non sensitive and I will NEVER condone the killing of a three year old little baby as being part of our "romanticized" military, especially such a brotherhood cult as the Marines.

military are not

rock stars--they are people like us and, according to accounts, fewer Bush haters than Bush supporters. Sorry--I will not romanticize the military. Especially when they murder little children in an act of revenge because on of their "brothers" was killed by insurgents. I have more morals than that. I cannot excuse it on the basis and I cannot shut up about it becvause in this community we have people who have relatives serving to --do what?

those who signed up after the lies and the invasion were known are not worthy of being romanticized as military heroes, imo.

[INDIA]

24. Jeez.....

:eyes: Nobody was asking you to romanticize the military, nor was I defending the alleged actions of the Marines involved. Painting the entire military as "barbarians" or the Marine Corps as a "cult" is ignorant, plain and simple. It's just as ignorant as saying all African Americans are criminals or that all gay men are sexual predators. You are using a VERY wide brush, which in nearly every case is wrong. I would be willing to bet you have zero experience with the military and have had little contact with those who have served in it.


Of course you are entitled to your opinion, no matter how uninformed and ignorant it may be. :-)

[Malva Zebrina]

28. I did not call you and idiot --you were the one calling me an idiot

and yes, we are all entitled to our opinion, and the mature person does not cave in to a community, even if threatened with some sort of "guilt" accusation because members of a community have people serving in the military and such opinions should NOt be verbalized.

Either you have an independant thought, or you cave in to conventinal and expected responses.

I prefer to think for myself and will take any argument that is reasonable into consideration,


but not one that holds a "guilt" hammer over my head or that calls me an idiot because of an accusation that I am in some way betraying others here in this community who have people in the military

I tell you this--no candidate is ever a rock star and all candidates are not to be adored as some rock star but should be examined with a discerning eye--the military is a composite of a population much like that in the population of our country. As I said. Some good, well meaning, some evil, willing and wanting to kill. Never ever should the murder of a three year old be defended as the "results of war" and if it is, it is as sick as Bush lying to kill thousands of innocent people.

They, our military, are not saints,some are not heroes, they are not rock stars, and they, some of them, thousands in fact, signed up, knowing full well that George Bush lied and thousands died because of that lie, yet they signed up to kill or the worse to be killed. It comes a time when a cold hard look at our military, with a reasonable parsing as to the reality of it, becomes necessary.

[debbierlus]

11. ALL IRAQI CIVILLAIN DEATHES UNJUSTIFIED - Which ones were justified?

The yahoo headline: Iraq civilian deathes unjustified. Yes, very true. So, weren't EVERY OTHER SINGLE ONE.

http://news.yahoo.com/fc/World/iraq

First, I believe this is heinous and deserves to be seriously punished. It is a horror.

However, this whole god damn war is a horror and tens upon tens of thousands of innocent men, women, and children have been murdered. Yes. Murdered. We lied to go in and bomb their nation. We had NO right to do that - This whole thing is a senseless blood bath.

Every single Iraqi who has been killed in this war has been murdered. Who were we to kill any on them?

This is sharp ledge on the slippery slope. People will get all horrified about this, yet think the other hundred plus thousand are just 'collateral damage'. The sheer arrogance of any human being to think they have the right to destroy another person's life on a suspicion of possible future danger to them.

This is where it becomes difficult to support the troops. The majority of Americans do NOT care a rat's ass about the troops. How can they say such a thing when they would allow them to be put in these circumstances to begin with? The sad tragedy is that most people STILL would have been fine with this war, if it had been quick or cheap. But, it never would have been right under any circumstance.

This is a mess. Our soldiers become monsters in these circumstances. And, to punish the soldiers without holding the people who ordered this lunacy accountable is hollow and meaningless. The headline was

[RoseMead]

20. Absolutely correct

And thank you for pointing this out. There will be a bigger outcry over this because it was a deliberate act, but to the Iraqis I suspect deliberate death, accidental death and whatever the hell other kind of death we may have to offer them look pretty much the same.

[HonorTheConstitution]

12. Pardon me, too !

With all due respect to our military service, but:

Even when the top command sucks and people like Rumsfeld do not give the right guidelines, a soldier enlisting should not give away his moral values and the capability of thinking what is inhuman or violates the standards of a civil warfare (I personally question that there is something like that.)

- There is no f****** excuse for a soldier being under stress or pumped up by a situation he/she was not trained for to behave like Ramboo.
Memorial day is coming and we honor all the military people defending our country and fighting for freedom. I only can give respect to these people if they obey to the law.

- We cannot allow that some bad apples are around and escape unpunished while finger pointing at insurgents and violent religious fanatics blowing others up!

On the other hand you cares of a dozen killed women and children, 45,000 civilian are already dead. Some more really does not matter. And we do not acknowledge the Geneva Convention anywhere. And there is a wonderful word for that:

Collateral Damage. (Sarcasm)

[MrPrax]

29. Good points...

and Welcome....

Pretty sickening thread isn't it...yeah support a military that hasn't actually fought an honorable war in half a century for fuck sake and every god damned reason for those 'poor kids trapped in hell' has been completely obliterated at the top, middle and bottom.

So what's the latest excuse for murder? Freedom, oil, PNAC made us do it, Rumsfeld, Jesus, illegal mexicans, anarchists, commies, France etc etc anything but yourselves, collectively as a nation.

Shame shame

[IndianaGreen]

26. Some of these Marines were on their THIRD combat tour!

And we expect them to behave rationally!!!!!!!

[IChing]

30. Murder? Why not War Crimes?

If you look at what they considered war crimes over the years in Bosnia,
Yugoslavia, Africa, and other places on the planet this pretty much fits the mold.

But I guess only the world will see it like this and not the US which is blind in their use of
WPD in Iraq, especially the use of depleted uranium, which we don't even know the
long, long term effects will be.

I find it memorable that on this Memorial Day that this will be remember by me and others
as a testament to our troops that have died to defend the freedoms in past wars that have now
been disregarded and dropped to the sides
of the fallen.







the statement by Justice Jackson on War crimes at Nuremberg Tribunal


"To initiate a war of aggression, therefore, is not only an international crime, it is the supreme international crime differing only from other war crimes in that it contains within itself the accumulated evil of the whole."

"that launching a war of aggression is a crime and that no political or economic situation can justify it." He also declared that "if certain acts in violation of treaties are crimes, they are crimes whether the United States does them or whether Germany does them, and we are not prepared to lay down a rule of criminal conduct against others which we would not be willing to have invoked against us."

Don't forget most or at least half of the people convicted of War Crimes never Kill anyone personally, face to face.
The soldier does the killing .

[Pavulon]

35. Other side charges war crimes

if you are captured you are charged with war crimes. If you are charged by your military it is different.

It is a criminal charge under ucmj.

[IChing]

36. You missed by point

or maybe not.

Since we have never been charged with War Crimes.
Where did they get the dog collars at the prison


that hold us accountable by the world
and our own conscious
or the beliefs of moral integrity
that form our religions or life?

USMG are Zombies
killing machines created by
Who?


Care to go to Basic training?
The individual is an abolition to the corp for it
leaves the soul in defending death and killing and
defends these soldiers or spartans we have created.

[Thickasabrick]

31. I think Fox should apologize to Murtha for all the people they've

lined up to bad mouth him about this story and the marines involved in this should be tried as war criminals. If someone tries to pull the old "they were under stress" bullshit (Murtha did but I'm letting him slide), then every Iraqi would have the same justification for targeting our guys. Who is more stressed out; a soldier or a mother who is waiting for some american guy to come through the door at night and murder her whole family.

Stress justification about this is total bullshit.

[Zynx]

33. This issue is a terrible one for Bush.

1. Support for the war among moderates and independents will drop from the incident.
2. Support among hard core right wingers will drop when the Marines are prosecuted.

[nealmhughes]

34. This story has broken my heart.

I want to believe that our Marines are brave and honorable. I want to believe that the Navy has the best equipment for them and they aren't pawns -- IED fodder -- undermanned but bound by their oaths. To send combat soldiers into a dangerous place as occupiers without the occupying power and the replacement "government" doing an iota of normal occupation duties such as: restoring the economy, electricity, and restricting vehicular traffic that is used as a venue for the four way war currently underway, i.e., Sunnis v. Shiites, Kurds v. Arabs, Arabs v. West, and fundamentalists v. the secular and religious minorities.
From my reading of the account, the leader was a sergeant. I have been constantly amazed at the huge number of E-1 through E-5 soldiers being killed. The ratio of senior NCOs and COs seems to junior enlisted seems to be extremely skewed. 15 guys and NO commissioned officer on site?! How old or experienced was the serg. in charge of that group? Probably not very...
These guys are overworked, under attack at every turn by bombs under the highways or on bridges -- they don't have time to even duck and cover. This isn't an infantry charge or tomahawk missiles from a submarine hitting downtown Baghdad/Basra/pick your favorite Iraqi city or even a "fair fight." This is carnage from roving bands of Iraqis and militias and individuals with bombs.
This is no excuse for what is purported to have happened. This is the United States of America where our military has been trained from day one on the UCMJ and the traditions of the respective services. As a matter of fact, the ubiquitious reading material in the heads of the USN is a metal plaque with the UCMJ on the back of the door which one faces when nature calls. I'm sure it is there for a reason.
I unfortunately understand HOW the guys COULD have done it, what I can't understand is WHY, just as I don't understand how racism, homophobia, or misogeny can lead to rape or murder. But it does. I know it does. But not understanding it doesn't allow one to condone it. In the military, unfortunately, all too often, shit does flow downhill, but sometimes it needs to flow uphill -- all the way to the White House, the Pentagon, the Naval Observatory and that pretty building with a dome on top of it right over the river from Alexandria.

[IChing]

37. This is the winner of American Idol

Or idle......now can we get them a song contract
to sing a song that represents now?


Now, where is my cell phone to vote on democracy?