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deadparrot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 04:49 PM
Original message
Judge Says Ten Commandments Can Stay
TOLEDO, Ohio - A Ten Commandments monument that has stood on the courthouse lawn for almost 50 years does not promote religion and can remain in place, a federal judge ruled.

U.S. District Judge James Carr said Tuesday that the monument can stay because the motives for placing it outside the Lucas County courthouse were secular and not an endorsement of a specific belief.

The American Civil Liberties Union of Ohio sued Lucas County in 2002 to have the display removed, saying it was unconstitutional and promoted religion.

Carr's decision followed a ruling last year by the U.S. Supreme Court that addressed displays of the Ten Commandments.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/ap/20060419/ap_on_re_us/ten_commandments_monument
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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 04:52 PM
Response to Original message
1. Yes...
Edited on Wed Apr-19-06 04:56 PM by W_HAMILTON
...because the ten commandments really affected the laws in our country. Lord knows it would be legal to steal from and kill people, if not for the ten commandments. Thank you ten commandments, because without you, we simple humans may have never arrived at the idea that it might be a good idea not to steal and kill.

EDIT: Just to clarify, I was responding to the part of the article that said the ten commandments can stay up, because it's not promoting religion, but instead "honoring our nation's legal tradition." Yeah, that's the ticket.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 08:48 PM
Response to Reply #1
26. Actually Morality Preceded the Ten Commandments and the Bible
Edited on Wed Apr-19-06 08:49 PM by stepnw1f
This is Christian indoctrination, nothing else. Pssst... people don't need the Ten Commandments ok? And many people of many faiths are paying tax money to a government that is not supposed to proselytize any religion over the other. Now we are on a very slippery slope because of stupid religious pride.
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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 06:56 AM
Response to Reply #26
34. I was being sarcastic
Most of the ten commandments aren't laws, and the few that are, are pretty damn obvious things to begin with (no stealing, no murder, etc). Bill Maher pointed this out in one of his comedy specials I think. So of course the ten commandments haven't had some great effect on shaping the laws in our country, therefore it's laughable to argue that they were put up to honor their place in our nation's legal history.
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stepnw1f Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 08:29 AM
Response to Reply #34
35. Oh Thank God
I actually read you as being serious. This religious right thing is really getting under my skin, so I apologize to you.
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W_HAMILTON Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 08:50 AM
Response to Reply #35
36. No problem...
That's why I did the edit, just in case someone didn't realize I was being sarcastic, but I guess it didn't help :) I was just pointing out how foolish the argument was that the ten commandments really had any major effect on the legal history in our country, because very few are actual laws, and the ones that are, are common sense things to begin with.
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DavidDvorkin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 04:55 PM
Response to Original message
2. Another braindead judge
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InsultComicDog Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:05 PM
Response to Original message
3. It's a practical mechanism
...for allowing already existing displays to be "grandfathered" in, while new ones are not to be added.

It requires some silly legal tightrope walking but I could live with that "compromise".
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Ian David Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:08 PM
Response to Original message
4. How does this promote religion...
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rpannier Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:30 PM
Response to Reply #4
15. That's very good
I like that cartoon.
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Felix Mala Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:09 PM
Response to Original message
5. Always remember these key facts...
Commandments I-V: Even Anton Scalia would have to rule against any law that was passed making the first five commandments a law in any state or for the nation. The first amendment of the constitution is pretty clear on this one.

Commandments VI-IX: You cannot murder, steal, commit adultery or lie. But really, are Christian societies the only ones to come up with these? Rome, Egypt, China -- all great civilizations have, in one way or another, penalized people for committing these crimes. Do you need Christianity to know that these things are not helpful for a good society? Besides, how many Republican congressmen do you know with a big adultery problem?

Commandment X: Thou shal not covet anything that is thy neighbor's (including his ass)... Well, there goes capitalizm down the sewer. It's based entirely upon wanting and getting what the other person has.

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Blue_Tires Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:48 PM
Response to Reply #5
8. lol
that reminds me of George Carlin's 10 Commandments!
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KansDem Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:09 PM
Response to Reply #5
11. "...are Christian societies the only ones to come up with these?"
You are correct. Laws against theft, murder, false witness, etc. appeared long before the Christian-Judeo tradition. I bought this book some years back and was amazed at how "civilization" was before "civilization."--

Civilization Before Greece and Rome

Check out the table of contents...

But Christians want us to believe they invented morality.

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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 08:43 PM
Response to Reply #5
24. Christian religion was NOT the first
In fact, in all liklihood they copied from the Hamarabi (sp) Code since it preceded the 10 commandments
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Freedom_from_Chains Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:19 PM
Response to Original message
6. Does not promote religion
Edited on Wed Apr-19-06 05:20 PM by Freedom_from_Chains
Yeah, and I have some property in Southern Florida that I can sell you.

On Edit: If it doesn't promote religion then why is it so important to keep it on the grounds?
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sutz12 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:32 PM
Response to Original message
7. I believe the Ten Commandments were preceded
by Hammurabbi's code by a century or three.
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Big_Mike Donating Member (274 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 05:53 PM
Response to Reply #7
9. Personally, I'd love to see the Code of Hammurabi Memorial
But since that covered all legal transactions, the Memorial would be about the size of the Empire State Building. Well, since it is all legal stuff, they'd probably use small print. OK, a New York Walk-up would hold it.
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LiberalFighter Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 08:44 PM
Response to Reply #9
25. They could do a replica and explained how much bigger it really was
and then also give the date of both.
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Igel Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 08:36 PM
Response to Reply #7
23. Oooh ... the Code of Hammurabi.
True enlightenment, that.

"1 If any one ensnare another, putting a ban upon him, but he can not prove it, then he that ensnared him shall be put to death.
2 If any one bring an accusation against a man, and the accused go to the river and leap into the river, if he sink in the river his accuser shall take possession of his house. But if the river prove that the accused is not guilty, and he escape unhurt, then he who had brought the accusation shall be put to death, while he who leaped into the river shall take possession of the house that had belonged to his accuser.

3 If any one bring an accusation of any crime before the elders, and does not prove what he has charged, he shall, if it be a capital offense charged, be put to death.
4 If he satisfy the elders to impose a fine of grain or money, he shall receive the fine that the action produces.
5 If a judge try a case, reach a decision, and present his judgment in writing; if later error shall appear in his decision, and it be through his own fault, then he shall pay twelve times the fine set by him in the case, and he shall be publicly removed from the judge's bench, and never again shall he sit there to render judgement.
6 If any one steal the property of a temple or of the court, he shall be put to death, and also the one who receives the stolen thing from him shall be put to death. ...
9 If any one lose an article, and find it in the possession of another: if the person in whose possession the thing is found say "A merchant sold it to me, I paid for it before witnesses," and if the owner of the thing say, "I will bring witnesses who know my property," then shall the purchaser bring the merchant who sold it to him, and the witnesses before whom he bought it, and the owner shall bring witnesses who can identify his property. The judge shall examine their testimony—both of the witnesses before whom the price was paid, and of the witnesses who identify the lost article on oath. The merchant is then proved to be a thief and shall be put to death. The owner of the lost article receives his property, and he who bought it receives the money he paid from the estate of the merchant.
10 If the purchaser does not bring the merchant and the witnesses before whom he bought the article, but its owner bring witnesses who identify it, then the buyer is the thief and shall be put to death, and the owner receives the lost article.
11 If the owner do not bring witnesses to identify the lost article, he is an evil-doer, he has traduced, and shall be put to death.
12 If the witnesses be not at hand, then shall the judge set a limit, at the expiration of six months. If his witnesses have not appeared within the six months, he is an evil-doer, and shall bear the fine of the pending case.
22 If any one is committing a robbery and is caught, then he shall be put to death.
23 If the robber is not caught, then shall he who was robbed claim under oath the amount of his loss; then shall the community, and . . . on whose ground and territory and in whose domain it was compensate him for the goods stolen.

Most aren't that bad:

48 If any one owe a debt for a loan, and a storm prostrates the grain, or the harvest fail, or the grain does not grow for lack of water; in that year he need not give his creditor any grain, he washes his debt-tablet in water and pays no rent for this year.

282 of the suckers. Mostly they just reflect the common Semitic legal heritage. People that assume because one was written down first it must be the source of the other. Those people should get out of modern western libraries a bit more often.



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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 09:06 PM
Response to Reply #23
28. Yes, both that and the TC are antiquated and somewhat authoritarian.
Edited on Wed Apr-19-06 09:07 PM by Zhade
They should both be recognized as relics of ancient tribal societies past, and not used as the basis for law.

I mean, "thou shalt have no other gods before me" isn't all that enlightened a 'commandment', either.

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ladjf Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:04 PM
Response to Original message
10. Poor Ohio. Used to be such a highly regarded state. How did
they fall so far so fast?
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0007 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 07:49 PM
Response to Reply #10
22. Most Ohioans need a heavy dose of castor oil.
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:19 PM
Response to Original message
12. 10 commandments weren't from the Koran
that's for sure. I also never saw it in the Wiccan creed. Nope, that is definitely a Christian document, so state sponsored religion is just alright with him.
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ecoalex Donating Member (718 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:23 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. Where is Roy Moore when ya needs him? Oh running for Gov Alabama
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WhiteTara Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 07:04 PM
Response to Reply #14
19. OMG He'll probably win
Yikes!
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 07:18 PM
Response to Reply #12
20. Except for the ones directly relating to "God" .....
or Allah, or Buddha, or FSM, they are pretty much common sense. Don`t kill
Don`t steal
Don`t lie
Don`t screw my wife



..oh, and keep your eyes off my stuff

Imagine what the 15 commandments looked like.

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Mz Pip Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:20 PM
Response to Original message
13. Is this really where we
want to draw lines and make a fuss?

I could care less if some 50 year old monument stays there. With all the crap that goes on in this country why peoiple are spending time fussing over this is beyond me.

Don't we have more serious things to be whigged out about?

Mz Pip
:dem:
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:53 PM
Response to Reply #13
17. I agree with you 100 % !.....
That being said - it must be recognized that Jewish Religion, as a whole, is being strongly advocated. The mere mention of God (or any entity) as having any type of command over the actions of others borders on a Theocracy.


Man can not be good for the sake of being good. He must be scared into submission. Hence, the invention of organized religion.

You better do "this", or God will be mad.

You better not do "that", or God will be mad.








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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 09:11 PM
Response to Reply #13
29. Sure, we have more urgent matters to attend to, but this IS important.
It's a violation of the separation of church and state, and they add up.

Look at how the fundies use unconstitutional things like "in god we trust" and "under god" to argue that this is a Christian nation, when the founders explicitly said otherwise.

Give fundies an inch, they'll rob you of a mile.

(Plus, I happen to believe we can multi-task. A few people to fight this kind of breech, more to end the war, that kind of thing. Having priorities doesn't mean ditching the battles that need to be fought, and one way or another this must be resolved.)

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GoddessOfGuinness Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:39 PM
Response to Original message
16. Oh we have BOTH religions here!
Christianity AND Judaism! :eyes:
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Wise Doubter Donating Member (458 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 06:54 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. Country and Western
:rofl:
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Ezlivin Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 07:21 PM
Response to Original message
21. Shouldn't that be the 15 Commandments?


I don't want to miss out on any of the good ones...
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Jazz2006 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 12:18 AM
Response to Reply #21
32. Hee hee - you beat me to it ....
that's exactly what I thought of when I read the OP.

:rofl:
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Zhade Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 09:02 PM
Response to Original message
27. Yeah, because nothing says religion-free...
...like THOU SHALT HAVE NO OTHER GODS BEFORE ME.

What a crock of shit decision.

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mitchum Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Wed Apr-19-06 10:08 PM
Response to Original message
30. Aren't those religous laws ONLY for Moses' rag tag band of Hebrews?
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Selteri Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 12:14 AM
Response to Reply #30
31. Yes, beause they are the ones who made the covenant
The covenant of Sanai. According to Christian Belief those rules were lifted into being "This is really the way you should live." Which is basically a way to have your cake and eat it too as long as you stay loyal if you think about it since Jesus somehow Magically washes away Sin.

Here in Ohio it is becomming laughable how much of sheep these people are with a very limited perspective on the world around them. They see things as being unchanging and fear the future instead of embrace it, Even in the more Progressive circles.
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happyslug Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 12:26 AM
Response to Original message
33. The good old First AMENDMENT.
Edited on Thu Apr-20-06 12:27 AM by happyslug
http://www.law.cornell.edu/constitution/constitution.overview.html

Amendment I (adopted 1791)

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

Notice the Amendment says CONGRESS shall not make no law.... It does NOT forbid the States or Local Government to do so. Thus how did the First get to apply to the States and Local Governments? That is through the 15th Amendment:

Amendment XIV (adopted 1868)

Section 1. All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the state wherein they reside. No state shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States; nor shall any state deprive any person of life, liberty, or property, without due process of law; nor deny to any person within its jurisdiction the equal protection of the laws.


Now for over 30 years AFTER the Adoption of the 14th Amendment, the Supreme Court of the US ruled that the Bill of Rights did NOT apply to the states. Starting in the late 1800s the Court finally decided that the Due Process clause of the 14th was the same as the Due Process Clause in the Fifth EXCEPT it also applied to the States. At first this was just viewed that the States had to Give Due Process to its citizens in Court proceedings, but then it was expanded (to help the expanding Railroads of the time) to prohibit the states from passing laws that interfered with the Right to Contract for such laws denied people (Meaning Corporations) the right ot be heard in Court and thus a denial of Due Process.

Finally in 1905 this doctrine was given full life under the Concept of "Substantial Due Process". What is meant by "Substantial Due Process" is if a law would interfere with someone's "Right" that law was unconstitutional under the 14th Amendment. The 1905 case that finally established this was the Locker vs New York Case (http://www.law.umkc.edu/faculty/projects/ftrials/conlaw/lochner.html). The Locher case is often referred to the case where the Supreme Court protected people "Freedom to Starve". In Locher the Court struck down as a violation of the Due Process clause of the 14th a State's regulations regarding wages and hours (The Case was Reversed by the Court starting in the 1930s so no longer valid law).

From Locher the Court expanded on the concept of Substantial Due Process till the court started to rule that it was a Violation of the 14th amendment's right to Due Process for a State to pass a law in violation of the First Amendment (This was NOT done till the 1920s). Thus one of the problem with the First Amendment is does it really apply to the States? The only way is through the 14th (For the clear language of the First precludes it by its own wording to apply to the states). The present law came from Locher and it Substantial Due Process language. If the court would say that the 14th ONLY protects Due Process rights, then the First can not be made to apply to the States and as such the states can do with the items in the First amendment as they see fit under their own State Constitutions.

Now some arguments can be made that the 14th, two other phases can be made to have the First Amendment to apply to the States, First is the clause guaranteeing All Citizens the "privileges and immunities" of Citizenships of the United states AND the right to "Equal Protection of the laws" (In the 1880s Civil Rights Cases BOTh of these "Rights" were restricted to Federal Rights to participate in Federal elections, and other rights guaranteed to ALL citizens of the United States, as set forth in the Constitution but NOT the rights listed in the Bill of Rights, for those rights were only rights FROM the Federal Government NOT rights from the States).

I mention this for the First Amendment cases are built on the quicksand of Locher and with its reversal a good argument can be made that most other substantial Due process rights should also be overtured (including First Amendment Rights).

This is the problem for the Courts, ideally the dispute should be handled by the State Legislatures (Which is what the Supreme Court has done when it comes to economic issues and Substantial Due Process) but you also have this long line of Cases extending the First Amendment to the states. What to do? The courts have made a mess of it for it really should be a legislature decision. For the State Legislature represent the people and thus have a better feel for what the people what when it comes to Rights under the First Amendment. At the same time the Court know that State Legislatures will cater to small groups who want they way even if that violation the spirit of the First Amendment.

Given this dilemma the Courts basically have decided to decide these issues on a case by Case basis. Deferring to local and State Government when they can and striking down decision of Local and State Governments when such Government go to far (i.e. actually appear to start to offend a sizable number of people). Older signs of Religion (especially dating to the pre-1920 period) tend to be permitted for the Courts of that time period would have permitted them up if such symbols of religion had been challenged in Federal Courts at that time. Later symbols of Religion the Courts tend to be more hostile to, for had they been challenged when first put up the Court would have ruled them as Unconstitutional.

The problem is today, most cases involved NOT what a Government is doing TODAy (or even in the last 30 years) but what that Government did 50-100 years ago, WHEN SUCH SYMBOLS OF RELIGION ON GOVERNMENT PROPERTY WERE NOT ONLY COMMON BUT OFTEN PUT UP BY COURT OFFICIALS THEMSELVES.

Thus, In my opinion, this is the modern test for the First Amendment:

1. Does it cause harm to a religious/political/Cultural/Racial Minority? If yes, no matter the age it is unconstitutional (and these rarely are the types of cases being contested TODAY).

2. Recent installation of Religious symbols, Unconstitutional unless clearly Secular in display (Santa Claus yes, elves, yes, Reindeer yes, Jesus and Mary, NO).

3. As to older religious items on Government Property, would the item have been declared unconstitutional at the time it was set upon Governmental property? If no, it should be left, if yes, it must be removed. Thus older religious symbols can be permitted, newer ones can not be.

4. Substantial rehabilitation? If it is just of the Religious symbols Unconstitutional, if it is part of a overall rehabilitation of a Government Property permitted if the religious symbols is of the type the courts would have permitted when the Religious symbol originally went up (Unconstitutional if it is of a type or of an age where such symbols would NOT have been permitted to be put up on Governmental Law).

5. An overall deference to Local and State Government when it comes to WHAT the state or local government is doing i.e. in a rehab of a Court house that includes the Ten Commandments, if the Government claims cleaning a copy of the Ten Commandments is part of a overall rehab, the burden to show it is NOT is on the person alleging it is not. The Court will accept the Government position that what the Government is doing in Constitutional unless by clear and convincing evidence the Government can be shown doing the Religious symbols only (and even here the Government can claim it decided to do the religious symbols first and ran out of money so only the religious symbols were done and the Court will accept that argument).

My point here is the Courts have to make a hard (and often an unpopular) decision when it comes to issues of older religious symbols on Governmental Property. The Court can rely on the fact that People have the concept that the First applies to the States and thus reduce some of the hostility to any decision to remove Religious Symbols off Government property, but in actual law, the First Amendment on its face does NOT APPLY TO THE STATES. It is only through the 14th amendment's Due Process clause that the First Amendment applies to the States, and thus how is "Freedom of the Press, Freedom of religion, Freedom to Petition the Government" Due Process? More actually, how is it a Violation of Someone's right to Due Process when it comes to these "rights"? Due Process generally means the right to a fair trial, the right to appeal, the right to a lawyer, the right to face one's accuser etc. Rights you need in Court. The First Amendment does NOT provide such procedural rights.

Given the above, I am sometime surprised that the Court Continues to take First Amendment cases. I believe the Court takes them for the First is a very popular Amendment and the Court does NOT want to become unpopular if it should decline to protect people's rights under the First (and those rights are popularly believe to be i.e. applying to the Federal, State and Local Government, not just the Federal Government). I fear someday the Court WILL take that road, i.e. say the First is what it says it is and NOT a right expanded to the States and local Government by the 14th Amendment.
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fshrink Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Thu Apr-20-06 08:57 AM
Response to Original message
37. Just like 'in god we trust', right. No endorsement here either.
It's just a secular statement.
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