Fetus Cannot Feel Pain, Expert Says

[deadparrot]

FRIDAY, April 14 (HealthDay News) -- Fetuses cannot feel pain, therefore U.S. legislation requiring doctors to tell women that the fetus will feel pain, or to provide pain relief during abortions, has no scientific basis and may harm the women involved, a leading expert contends.

"This is an unwarranted piece of legislation because there is good evidence that the fetus cannot feel pain at any stage of gestation," said Stuart Derbyshire, senior lecturer in psychology at the University of Birmingham, U.K.

...

The neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete, if not mature, by 26 weeks' gestation, he said. "From about 26 weeks you can talk about there being a complete system in terms of biology, a link from the skin to the spinal cord to the brain, and we know that set-up is reasonably functional," Derbyshire explained.

But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum.

http://news.yahoo.com/s/hsn/20060414/hl_hsn/fetuscannotfeelpainexpertsays

[Christa]

1. Never allow facts

to confuse those who don't want to see it.

[slackmaster]

2. Neonates definitely can feel and appreciate pain right away

Is this researcher suggesting that the mind develops instantly at the moment of birth?

I'm pretty strongly pro-choice, but in this case I have to agree with the pro-lifer who stated this sounds like propaganda.

[sutz12]

3. ????

He rather categorically states that the fetus's brain is not developed until at least "26 weeks." Where do you get the "the mind develops instantly" from?

:shrug:

[slackmaster]

5. Read the whole statement

He said:

"...there is good evidence that the fetus cannot feel pain at any stage of gestation...."

That covers right up to the moment of birth. It's dubious on the face because of its lack of qualification.

He also said (the part you only partly quoted):

"The neural circuitry needed to process pain is complete, if not mature, by 26 weeks' gestation, he said. "From about 26 weeks you can talk about there being a complete system in terms of biology, a link from the skin to the spinal cord to the brain, and we know that set-up is reasonably functional," Derbyshire explained.

But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum. (underlinging added by slackmaster for emphasis)

I'm sorry to disagree with the pro-choice side here, but it's pretty brain-dead obvious that babies experience pain at the moment of birth. The baby hasn't had any time at all to contextualize and subjectify the sensation of pain. Pain is deeper and more primitive than the conscious mind.

And his association with pro-choice groups, albeit unpaid, is a red flag for having an axe to grind. Unpaid consultants have a habit of becoming paid ones.

[DemExpat]

8. I agree with you here

The baby hasn't had any time at all to contextualize and subjectify the sensation of pain. Pain is deeper and more primitive than the conscious mind.

One reason why I chose to have my babies at home - so that I would have control over their handling in this IMO ultra-sensitive changeover from womb to world.

DemEx

[madeline_con]

20. "Pain is deeper and more primitive ..."

I'm no neurologist, but I'll have to say I agree. Lots of creatures less neocortically endowed, if you will, can feel pain.

The article does seem to imply an instantaneous ability to feel pain, that was absent a moment before the looong journey through the birth canal. :eyes:

[1monster]

9. From this paragraph, quoted from above:

But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert, who has previously served as an unpaid consultant to Planned Parenthood of Virginia and Planned Parenthood of Wisconsin, as well as the U.K.-based Pro-Choice Forum.

Early in the second morning of his life, a nurse's aid came into the room to cut the hospital bracelet off of my son's wrist. As she did, he started screamming. She left the room immediately, while we tried to figure out what was wrong with him.

We discovered that the aid had cut a couple of layers of skin on his palm of his hand when she snipped the bracelet.

It was not until just recently that doctors admitted that babies could feel pain. In the past, surgeons did major as well as minor surgeries on babies without anesthetics because they believed that babies cannot feel pain. They have since discovered that they are wrong.

I am not arguing that fetuses can feel pain in the early stages of gestation, however, it is most likely that they can feel pain in the later stages.

[slackmaster]

10. Only anti-abortion extremists claim that early-stage fetuses feel pain

I am not arguing that fetuses can feel pain in the early stages of gestation, however, it is most likely that they can feel pain in the later stages.

Agreed.

[Warpy]

11. The structures simply aren't there

until near the end of gestation. The nerves may or may not be capable of some transmission of pain impulses (although without the myelin sheath in place, even this is highly debatable), but the brain structures responsible for receiving it are not yet there.

I doubt even the researcher in question would claim a viable fetus can't feel pain. However, he's correct in stating it can't be interpreted as pain until the mind devlops. That's the difference.

Neonates obviously feel pain, feel discomfort, feel hunger, feel a wet diaper, feel a wrinkle in the crib sheet. They can't discern a difference between discomfort and pain, though, which is why they cry for all of it.

What is clear is that the first and most of the second trimesters cover the period when the fetus is utterly incapable of feeling anything, including pain.

The government is issuing a false statement, a piece of propaganda aimed at harming women.

[slackmaster]

12. Even a three-year-old can't distinguish between discomfort and pain

You should have heard the little girl I just saw at the mall screaming bloody murder because she didn't like the pizza her mother had bought her for lunch.

My point is that the statement that a fetus can't feel pain at ANY stage of gestation was overly broad.

[DBoon]

4. Just biased liberal dogma masquerading as "research"

How can these researchers claim to know anything when they have not accepted Jesus as their personal savior?

:sarcasm:

[Dogmudgeon]

19. Keep J.C. outa this, will ya?

Who do you think crucified his ass? The ACLU?

The "Religious Right" is neither.

:evilgrin:

--p!

[DemExpat]

6. I believe that many doctors used to treat newborns as if they did not

feel any pain either.

I will opt to err on the side of caution and see a foetus over 20 months as able to feel pain.

DemEx

[jbnow]

28. You're right. Newborns use to have surgery

without anesthesia, just with meds to stop them from moving. Unbelievably this was still going on in the 1980's on the assumption that newborns could not feel pain!
I'll do a quick look for a link that talks about it.
Here's one.
http://www.birthpsychology.com/healing/historical.html

My sister learned via amniocentesis that she was carrying a very disabled child. Raising three others (and working full time) she felt she could not have that baby. But because that procedure comes well into the pregnancy she was several months into the pregnancy already, had felt the baby kicking, was already bonded.

She was just tortured at the idea the baby might feel pain. When she talked to the doctor about it he told her it was unlikely but was willing to give her anesthesia that would reach the fetus as well. That was the choice she made and she was very relieved.
Even if the mother can't continue a pregnancy you can be sure she wouldn't want to cause pain.
I don't know when a fetus starts to perceive pain but I sure wouldn't take the word of the same generation of doctors that operated on newborns without anesthesia. If I needed an abortion that late in pregnancy I'd want anesthesia that would prevent the possibility of the fetus feeling the pain.

[Ezlivin]

35. A "foetus over 20 months" would feel a lot more than pain

It would feel mighty crowded in that stale, old womb....

[DemExpat]

40. Oops....LOL...

:argh: :D

Thanks for pointing that out there....

DemEx

[azurnoir]

7. I'm torn about this

no I don't believe at 22 weeks of gestation but what about 30? The truth is most likely that like everything else everyone is different. An MD tried to tell me that about my son during circumcision he was born at 37 weeks most definately not true as I found ut when we got him home I felt terrible about it.

[Kashka-Kat]

13. OH GOOD GRIEF.

Stop with the idiotic liberal vs conservative polarities already.

Funny, I got into a similar discussion recently in pond forum re: whether fish feel pain.

No, they do not feel or conceptualize pain AS A HUMAN DOES but every living entity struggles in its environment for survival and for continued existance, shrinking away from things which threaten its existance and moving towards those things which sustain it.

What is the experience of a fetus getting aborted as it writhes and twists - WE DONT KNOW, and at what particular stage or moment does conciousness enter the conglomerate of cells that is the precursor of a developed human being - that's always been held to be a "religious" opinion and now youre telling me "science says"? Give me a break- we don't freakin know.

Sure lets have adult REALITY-BASED conversation about abortion, the ambiguities of it, the relative values of aborting the cells now vs. intolerable human lives of pain lived after.

But I don't need this simple minded fairy tale any more than I need the religious right's.

And yes I do eat fish but that does not preclude my awareness that they may feel a rudimentary form of ...yes, I'll say it... PAIN.

[slackmaster]

14. I'm quite sure a fertilized egg has no sensation whatsoever

But the anti-abortion extremists are concerned about its "soul".

Good post BTW. Any side that claims to be backed up by science on the question of when a fetus deserves legal protection is full of shit.

[Kashka-Kat]

16. Honestly, I just dont know! Dont single celled critters also

behave (if I may use that word) in ways which maintain its continued existance. Prime directive of all life forms seems to be keep living and resist dying.

I just don't need dogma in my life, from right or left. I am comfortable with ambiguity. I see that there may be a need to *not criminalize* women in extremely difficult situations ... living as we are in a culture which hates and fears sexuality (I mean why is it that we don't have SAFE EFFECTIVE ETHICAL EASILY ACCESSIBLE birth control yet???) but I don't need to sugar coat reality either.... abortion is not like having a mole removed.

[slackmaster]

17. Single cells indeed move in response to adverse stimuli

The reaction is known technically as a taxis rather than a reflex, since there is no nervous system.

An amoeba can react and move away from danger. Does it feel pain? Surely not the way we do. Does it have a soul? The answer is beyond the realm of science. Is killing an aboeba OK? It's up to you.

[Xithras]

15. Um, this is bad science.

Just because bad science supports our side of the argument doesn't mean we should ignore the fact that it's bad science. It also contradicts a ton of other research done on the subject frequently cited by groups ranging from PETA to anti-circumcision activists.

Pain is a fundamental sensory perception and doesn't require cognitive analysis to judge. When something hurts, it hurts. What this researcher is saying, in essence, is that a newborn couldn't tell the difference between a pinprick and someone hitting it with a hammer because it didn't have any reference to compare the two. That allegation is absurd on its face, and contradicts a half-century of neurological research. Unlike our ability to sense temperature change or noise levels, our pain reception abilities are hardwired...the difference between "That stings a little" and "OHMIGODSUNUVAOOOOOOOWWWWW!!! THAT HURTS!" is fully functional long before we are born.

And yes, abortions on fetuses after the 26th week are undoubtedly painful for the fetus. Even if it's not convenient for certain pro-choicers who would prefer to present abortion as a no-fuss, no-muss, harmless procedure, it's reality.

What should be done in light of these facts is a completely separate discussion. Personally, I DO agree with the administration of some kind of sedative into the womb as part of the procedure (after the 26th week). We wouldn't kill an animal this way without first administering a sedative because we understand that inflicting unnecessary pain is cruel. If the fetus experiences pain, the same basic human decency should apply.

[CarpeDiebold]

29. .

please don't attack the work of a trained scientist unless you have science backing you up(and by science, i mean the citations to peer reviewed articles in scientific journals that back up what you're saying)

and no, pain is not hardwired. stedman's medical dictionary defines pain as "An unpleasant sensation associated with actual or potential tissue damage and mediated by specific nerve fibers to the brain where its conscious appreciation may be modified by various factors."

pain is the perception of noxious stimuli, which are detected by nociceptors(which ARE hardwired). morphine, etc work by modulating the perception of pain at the level of the periaqueductal gray. even if nociceptors are activated, say with the prick of a pin, those signals have to reach the somatosensory cortex through the thalamus in order for us to perceive pain.

a fetus does not have these fully developed thalamocortical connections(JAMA. 2005;294 : 947-954) and most likely will not "feel" pain.

i can make your owwwowwsunuva feeling disappear entirely, even if i hit you with a hammer...or cut you in half and sew you back together. i just need you to fill out some paperwork to give me permission to do that...

*edit* what the hell, i'll throw in a picture for all you science-haters.


see all those lines going up to the brain(the spinothalamic tract)? those are vital for the perception of noxious stimuli. the noxious stimuli themselves affect the nerves down at the bottom, peripheral to the spinal cord.

[brentspeak]

31. "Most likely won't feel 'pain'" is an opinion

not a proven scientific fact. Nobody has yet been able to prove/disprove whether or not a fetus experience physical pain. Though we do know as a fact that fetuses respond to outside stimuli -- kicking or writhing when prodded by an object, for example.

[CarpeDiebold]

33. .

a snail moves when i touch it. you're telling me it has complex neural structure? a simple response to stimuli doesn't need nearly the same neural sophistication as for pain perception(look up 'reflex arc')

it's simply not possible for a fetus before the 3rd trimester to feel pain as modern medicine defines it. how can pain can be felt when the required infrastructure isn't even present yet?

unless you have access to a peer reviewed article that says otherwise, you're letting emotions and correlative(not causal) evidence dictate your view on this.

[Dogmudgeon]

18. Fetal neurology isn't subject to politics

I'd heard that there is enough neurological organization as early as 18 or 19 weeks to allow pain perception (this was in the early 1990s, so that figure may well have changed). The groundbreaking study of fetal and neonatal pain was done by Anand and Hickey in the 1980s, after decades of peer-reviewed insistence that even infants could easily tolerate surgery without anesthetic.

However, this has nothing to do with the right to terminate a pregnancy.

The right to choice in reproductive decisions -- and fetal neurology -- are two entirely different subjects. If there is any question at all, anesthetic ought to be used; thiopental, or something that doesn't cross the amniotic barrier. Most women would agree, but this law is NOT about safeguarding the rights of women, it's about dramatizing anti-choice theology. Women having abortions deserve to make informed decisions without being subjected to wingnut politicking. Yes, even if it's ours (though our own record is far better than the record of the so-called "Right To Life" movement).

And we ought to stay aware that this topic has been exploited by the anti-choice crowd who proved last year with their abuse of Terri Schiavo that they could give a rat's ass about human life in any form.

It's not that the poor fetus might suffer during abortion; they really just hate women who have sex without their dubious blessing.

--p!

[roseBudd]

21. Worms have no brain, yet they wiggle when you put them on a hook

they also wigglw when you touch them or just reveal them while digging. just because something reacts to touch doesn't mean it experiences pain.

[ismnotwasm]

22. Just keept the law out of my uterus

They can do all the fetal pain studies they want.

[xultar]

23. A-FUCKIN-MEN!!! AGREED!!! Seconded! Why are the fuckers

with peckers always fuckin with my privates?

[MasonJar]

24. It makes sense to me, biologically and religiously, that there

would be no pain for the baby until birth, since birth is so terribly painful.

[Kailassa]

25. Birth is not necessarily painful for the baby.

I was given the name Carol, because I was making singing noises immediately after birth and seemed happy. One of my sons was distressed after birth, but that had been a shocking ordeal for everyone where my uterus ruptured instead of opening, and was not anything like a normal birth experience.

My daughter was born face-up, and I pulled her out myself. I will never forget gazing into her wide open, very aware eyes, as I did. She looked so wise, as though she knew everything. She and my other son seemed relaxed and eager for their first bit of titty after birth, and not at all distressed.

My grand-daughter also seemed unfazed by birth. She was not interested in drinking, she wanted to look at everyone. We got the impression that she was thinking, "thank goodness I'm out of that cramped space at last. Now it's time to party!"

[Igel]

26. But if they didn't feel it, it wouldn't be painful.

It is. The little tykes as they make their way out of the birth canal are very much displeased at the idea. Hurts like hell.

[Kailassa]

27. Bah. So if this professor goes senile, but all his nerves still work,

it would be quite ethical to conduct surgery on him without anaesthetic, as "to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed".

I"m totally in favour of abortion on demand, but nonsense like this only gives the ant-choice people reason to regard our side as idiots. If a woman needs to have a fetus removed, it needs to be done humanely. On the other hand, no woman needs to be fed lies suggesting the foetus can feel pain in the very early stages.

What we need is for abortion to be simpler to get, with not more that a 48 hour waiting period, so that, if it has to be done, it can be done as early as possible, while the operation is still a simple one, and before the embryo even stats looking like a foetus. And to clarify, I'm not saying late term abortions should not be done, only that it should be easier to have them done early.

[brentspeak]

30. I don't know about this guy's reasoning

"But to properly experience pain, the mind must also be developed, something which cannot happen until after birth. The mind permits the subjectivity of pain, said the U.K. expert"

An insect responds adversely to painful stimuli, but it doesn't have 1/millionth the "mind" of a developing human fetus.

[EC]

32. Something I always wondered, is does a baby feel the pain

of birth? You'd think that your head being squeezed and pushed out of shape through the birth canal would hurt? So...maybe there is some sort of neural switch that is flicked off until birth?

[DemExpat]

34. A normal birth (without complications) can IMO be very stressful

because of the enormous pressure and the violent change of circumstances, but not sure that the pressure on the rather soft skull would necessarily be painful.

Maybe a bad headache?

Frederik Leboyer had a great book with pictures of homebirths with dimmed lights, etc., and the babies portrayed were all very peaceful and even smiling after birth.

DemEx

[slackmaster]

39. The lights and sounds must be a terrible shock

Think of what it feels like for you to be hit with a bright light and noise when you are accustomed to sitting in a quiet, dark room.

[slackmaster]

37. I believe neonates feel pain, but don't commit it to long-term memory

They forget everything that happens to them until their minds have developed the logical structures to contextualize and store their experiences.

Nobody remembers being born. My earliest memory, or that which I believe to be so, is from when I must have been about a year old.

[DemExpat]

41. The evolving work of psychotherapies dealing with post traumatic

stress disorder and such show growing mind and body therapies to treat disassociation and 'forgotten' experiences, therapies in a number of works based on the theory of somatic memory.

http://www.wwnorton.com/npb/nppsych/bodyremexpt.html

The mind might not remember, but the body may - in, for example, the patterns of an individual's response to stress in daily life.

DemEx

[slackmaster]

43. Very interesting stuff, thanks for the link!

I have a degree in psychology but haven't pursued it since I started working on computer systems.

[Deja Q]

36. I don't care what it feels... or what was done to 'prove' it...

Besides, liver was deemed great food one day... grossly unhealthy the next. Ditto for eggs.

Vitamin B12 helps something! Oh, now it doesn't!

Oh, that causes cancer! Wait, no, it doesn't...

The BRAIN needs to be fully formed. Which surely happens by the 6th month, or else lots of premature babies wouldn't survive... babies feel pain, and they are not crying tears of joy when they're removed from mommy's big belly...

I'm tired of scientists using their opinions to tell us what life is.

Life is special. Period. Don't define where it begins, when a fetus can sing and dance, don't genetically manipulate it (at least for humans as that takes away the beauty OF life).

[slackmaster]

38. My fiancee's 17-year-old daughter's brain isn't fully formed yet

She's a loose cannon, and I consider her a real threat to my physical and financial security. That's why I have insisted on deferring our wedding until after the girl's 18th birthday.

:eyes:

[CornField]

42. Personal experience -- feel free to skip

Both of my last two children were evicted early for medical reasons (my body is prone to placenta abruption late in pregnancy). Before we could induce labor, we needed to determine that their lungs were functioning properly. This was done with an amnio (long needle through the abdomen, into the uterus to extract amniotic fluid). The doctor just doesn't come into the room and push a needle into you. First, they use ultrasound to find a 'pocket' of fluid away from the fetus's vital organs, head and so forth.

During the second amnio with my now 6-yr-old daughter, we watched on the ultrasound monitor as she reached out to grab the needle -- drawing her hand back quickly. When she was born a few hours later, it was with a minor wound on her right index finger.

During my son's amnio, he kicked at the needle and was born with a minor wound on his ankle.

The thing is, in both cases, we watched as they -- roughly 36 weeks along -- recoiled after being poked by the needle. I don't know if that is definitive proof that those so far along within the womb both process and fully experience pain. I do know that once a child is born, you can place something on his/her hand and the reflex is to grab it, not to pull away.

I also think there must be something within a newborn which allows it NOT to feel/experience all the pain of birth -- maybe there is a hormone or something released by the mother during labor? For the record, none of my three really wanted to scream/cry when they first were born. The nurses and doctor really rough them up (rub them with blankets and so-forth) to get them going. Those screams are good to clear the throat and lungs. Once they were left to their own devices, mine were perfectly content just to be held, listen and look around. (I was always so amazed by how calm and alert they were right after birth.)

All this being said, I'm not a scientist. From the biology I do know, it would be amazing if any fetus under 24 week could feel pain -- all the components which allow that functioning aren't in place then. It is utter nonsense for anyone to suggest that a first-trimester fetus experiences pain. The only reason for making such an assertion would be to hinder a woman who is already in enough pain of her own.

[slackmaster]

44. I didn't scream or cry, but I did urinate on the obstetrician

He said "Well, we know that part of him works!"

One of the "Too Much Information" type stories my mom likes to tell over Thanksgiving dinner after a couple of glasses of wine.