WP: Study Shows Plateau in Obesity in U.S. Women

[DeepModem Mom]

Study Shows Plateau in Obesity in U.S. Women
By Rob Stein
Washington Post Staff Writer
Tuesday, April 4, 2006

The rapid rise in obesity has stalled among women in the United States, the first sign that the epidemic may be peaking, federal health officials reported today.

After climbing continuously and quickly for decades, the percentage of American women who were obese held steady at about one-third between 1999 and 2004 -- marking the first time that has happened in any segment of the population, according to an analysis of the most recent national data.

Officials cautioned it was too soon to tell whether the plateau was the beginning of a trend or perhaps even a prelude to a decline. But they greeted the crest with cautious optimism.

"It looks like it's leveling off," said Cynthia L. Ogden of the National Center for Health Statistics, who reported the new data in Wednesday's issue of the Journal of the American Medical Association. "We'll need more data over the next few years to know for sure, but hopefully we'll see this continue, which would be terrific."

Ogden emphasized that it is a major public health problem that nearly two-thirds of U.S. women are still overweight and more than one-third are obese, and that the percentage of children, adolescents and men who are overweight and obese continued to increase....

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2006/04/04/AR2006040401312.html

[NYC]

1. I really don't understand what this means.

This was one explanation offered:

"There's growing awareness that this is not a healthy condition. Women historically have been the early adopters of positive health behaviors," said William H. Dietz of the federal Centers for Disease Control and Prevention in Atlanta. "This plateau may reflect an increased effort by women to control their weight." He speculated that the next group to show a similar trend may be children.

"Children and adolescents tend to be influenced by their mothers," Dietz said. "So perhaps we may see something similar start to happen in those groups."

This is another:

Alternatively, it could be that obesity among women peaked because most of the women who are genetically predisposed to become obese have done so. Because the obesity rate among women has historically led the rate for men, it could be that they reached a genetic saturation point sooner.

"Some people may be particularly vulnerable to this toxic environment in which we live," said Thomas A. Wadden of the University of Pennsylvania, president of the Obesity Society. "It's possible that most of the people who are genetically susceptible to obesity have gotten obese."

Not much detail in this article.

[melody]

2. It's because it's nonsense

Part of the supposed "obesity epidemic" has been the dropping of weight standards for individuals.

And even morbid obesity isn't that dramatic a health risk. It impinges on the body at the level of light smoking. (It decreases lifespan by 1-3 years). Obviously, this doesn't include 500 lb people and such, anymore than the very slender (aka anorexic) are as healthy as normally thin people. Still, the fattest women still outlive the thinnest men. Fat people who exercise are still healthier than thin people who don't.

The whole problem is prejudice against fat people. It's abuse of a minority -- nothing less or more.

[CountAllVotes]

4. I agree with you!

>> Part of the supposed "obesity epidemic" has been the dropping of weight standards for individuals.

I agree with you 100%. It is like how they now define high blood pressure as being much different then before. Now the pharmaceutical companies are making more $ than ever with these new "guidelines" which I believe are dangerous.

An old friend of mine 85 years old has recently been put on blood pressure medication and got very sick as her blood pressure is only high when she goes to the doctor. When at home it is normal.

Weight for women has had changing charts, etc. for years. I believe the best weight for anyone is the weight they feel best at.

Charts charts charts charts ... what does it all really mean?

I don't deny there are many obese women in the USA, but many might not have been considered "obese" when looking at the charts used in the 1940s/1950s.

:kick:

[melody]

5. fat people often have artificially high blood pressure

This happens due to the cuff being too tight. Once my blood pressure is taken with the right sized cuff, it's below normal. So-called "white coat hypertension" is often simply "small cuff hypertension". lol

[CountAllVotes]

6. no joke!

I've had the same exact experience. The small cuff hurts my arm, hence PAIN and then UP goes the blood pressure. They experimented on me with the BP drugs as well and I almost went into shock.

I'm not obese but maybe 20 lbs. overweight according to the "charts". My arms aren't really huge and fat, but the small cuff they use just plain hurts when they use it. I demand they use the larger cuff and I monitor my BP at home.

It tends to run low/normal like you. lol! :)

:kick:

[progressivebydesign]

10. Interesting stuff on the BP..

I have never been overweight.. but I have what they call that "white coat hypertension"... The cuff starts hurting my arm, and I start to panic when my hand goes numb. My chiropractor used to take my bp and say if he were a doctor he'd worry that it was too low. Too many people are forced into taking bp drugs when it's just the stupid cuffs that cause our bp to rise!

[melody]

16. Exactly, well said

That's the whole problem. There are many, many over-medicated hypertension drug takers. Mine (on BP meds) went down to 100/60. This is nice and healthy, but I felt like warmed over crap. :)

Your white coat hypertension is possibly also "small cuff hypertension". If they take your blood pressure with a small cuff that hurts your arm with more than mild pressure, demand a larger cuff. You should NOT be having pain from this -- this will trigger tension which will result in artificial hypertension. I had a nurse take my BP with an extremely painful small cuff (After refusing to get the larger sized cuff) and it showed at 225/125. The next morning with my doctor, it was 120/60. That's the difference between extreme BP medication and none at all.

Also, if they take your blood pressure around the forearm rather than on the upper arm near your shoulder, that will show an artificially high reading. Never get your BP taken right after walking in. Asking to rest a couple of moments. Always keep your feet flat on the ground. And be sure to ask for the right sized cuff.

[Marie26]

20. I'm all for acceptance

of everybody, but I don't think we should minimize the consequences of obesity. It creates a much higher risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes & early death. We're the richest country in the world, but have shorter lifespans than many other countries due to our lifestyles.

[melody]

24. not true

It simply isn't. Look into the medical literature. This anti-obesity madness is due to the multi-billion dollar diet industry
coupled with a terribly lucrative, potentially dangerous practice called weight loss surgery. For a minority of people, WLS may
be advisable, but certainly not for most.

>a much higher risk of diabetes, heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes & early death

There is no causal connection between heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes or early death and obesity. There simply isn't. In fact obesity in senior citizens is advisable - fat senior citizens live longer. If you have a good doctor, ask him or her. Obesity is a symptom of diabetes, but most fat people are not diabetic.

We use this in this country to wield it as the last acceptable prejudice against people -- we even think it has a medical basis, which is very handy for making thin people feel superior, but it doesn't.

Thin people outlive fat people by 1.3 years. Fat black women live longer than thin black women. The fattest women still live longer than thin men. Does this account for the people who weigh 600 lbs? Of course not. At that weight, you're as endangered by health concerns as an anorexic is at that weight. But the vast majority of obese people have little or no decrease lifespan as a result of even primary morbid obesity.

Then the usual remark is, "yes, well, it's crippling". Of course it is. Morbid obesity is also usually incurable.

There are a number of excellent books on the subject, one being Big Fat Lies by Glenn Gaesser (a diet doctor).

[Marie26]

28. Please

"There is no causal connection between heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes or early death and obesity."

I think it is unacceptable to demean or discriminate against someone because of their weight. That said, it's incorrect & delusional to say that obesity doesn't pose a health risk. Many severally obese people don't make it out of their 30's; and obesity is directly related to the spiraling rates of heart disease, diabetes, etc. in this country. Children are now much more obese than they were even 10 years ago; w/a corresponding rise of Type 2 diabetes in kids. Obesity is not a "symptom" of diabetes, it is a contributing cause of the disease. That's why the first thing doctors tell pre-diabetics to do is lose weight in order to avoid the disease. I think you know this is true, cause you threw in the factoid that higher weight is advisable for seniors - but NOT for everybody else. You also throw in the fact that fat women outlive thin men as if this proves something; when all women outlive men. If you'd compared lifespans of overweight & thin women, that might've meant something, but you didn't do that. Because studies have consistently shown that people who are overweight will have shorter lifespans than people who are thin. Obesity does reduce lifespan, and is a direct cause of cancer, heart disease, stroke & other chronic problems.

Being Overweight Can Shorten Your Life, Study Says

(CNN) -- The largest study on obesity and mortality ever conducted has found convincing evidence that being overweight can reduce a person's life span.

The study, published in this week's New England Journal of Medicine (NEJM), was conducted by the American Cancer Society.

Researchers looked at the medical records of more than a million Americans from 1982 through 1996 and found a clear link between being overweight and a higher risk of dying from cancer or heart disease.

If you're at the upper end of this range or score more than 25, consider losing enough weight to lower your BMI at least one or two numbers. A BMI of more than 27 is considered overweight.

The study also found overweight people ran a higher risk of premature death, even if they were non-smokers and were otherwise healthy during their middle years.

"The evidence is now compelling and irrefutable," Dr. JoAnn Manson, a Harvard University endocrinologist and preventive-health specialist, said.

"Obesity is probably the second leading preventable cause of death in the United States after cigarette smoking, so it is a very serious problem."

http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/diet.fitness/9910/06/weight.death/index.html

I don't like the fad of weight loss surgery, either, but it's hard to argue w/the benefits of simply losing weight.

[melody]

32. Oy -- the same nonsense studies repeated

Look, this is why I don't get into this in public forums. People will grasp any reason to feel superior to other people, including health issues. It gives people a weird sense of false morality. I won't go beyond this because most people cite information about which they have little information. I've been in a fat body for all my life. I have excellent doctors. I know of what I speak.

I've repeated and repeated this in forums my whole online life. If you want information, I'd recommend a good and thorough study of the real research, not the pop research.

The Bush administration has been apoplectic about attacking fat people - control freaks often are. They've suddenly spun out a whole manner of hyperbolic declarations of war against fat people. The longest termed studies still show a very slight decrease in lifespan due to obesity. The vast majority of fat people have no medical reason to lose weight.

>ound a clear link between being overweight and a higher risk of dying from cancer or heart disease.

There's a clear link -- to the tune of 1.5 years. I've already said that. Fat people, overall, don't live as long as thin people. The difference is a very small number of years however. Black people don't live as long as white people, but that's just a matter of physical differences and social pressures. Similarly, with fat people.

Instead of attacking fat people, we should be understanding obesity, but it's much more fun to poke fun at the fat kid in the schoolyard, and that's all this fat bias is on a medical level.

[Marie26]

40. "Nonsense studies" by the American Cancer Society.

I've got a news bulletin for you - I am overweight. I am not saying this to be mean, or discriminatory, but because it is the truth. It seems to be a truth you do not want to hear. Where did you see me attacking fat people? So are you saying that any medical study that proves obesity is unhealthy is a result of "fat bias"? Or the Bush Administration? That's nonsense. We need to really understand the causes & risks of obesity in order to find a solution. You brag about coming from a fat family w/o any history of diabetes or heart disease. Good for you; but that is the exception, not the rule. I come from a fat family where all my grandparents & 2 uncles died before 60 because of heart disease. I really don't want to hear your rationalizations or excuses. Obesity is a health risk. It could be caused by simple lifestyle, but is probably caused by environment & genetic predispositions as well. But we need to work together to find a solution, instead of denying a problem exists.

[melody]

42. I don't go into this on public forums, so this ends the thread

So many people are emotionally embroiled in this issue. ACS has made many flawed studies.

You're overweight but are you obese? These are two entirely different things.

>I come from a fat family where all my grandparents & 2 uncles died before 60 because of heart disease

My friend Janet comes from a thin family where all her grandparents and her uncles died before 60 from cancer.

At this point, when facts run out, ad hominem attacks pick up, as it has with your post. I'll end my comments there.

You do your research and make your own choices. That's all I suggest. We are overwhelmed by information given to us by the diet industry. I have read the findings you've exhorted. Have you read the ones I have?

[Marie26]

66. Alrighty then

You seem to be very emotionally embroiled in this issue, to the point that you're willing to ignore mainstream science. I think your facts ran out long ago if you're resorting to "My friend Janet..." I have done research & know what the medical consensus is. "Big Fat Lie" sounds like an interesting book, but based on the blurb, you're even twisting what that's about. The author is not a "diet doctor," or even an MD, but an exercise physiologist. He doesn't say it's good to be obese, he just says that dieting is not the best way to be healthy & advises heavy exercise instead. And he believes, "even if you're overweight by universal standards, you can still live a long life. The key is exercise and a low-fat diet with lots of fruits, vegetables and grains." http://www.cnn.com/HEALTH/9702/17/big.fat.lies /.

That seems sensible. But even that book doesn't seem to support your conclusion that "there are no serious life expectancy issues with even primary morbid obesity" (which you stated in a post below). It's called "morbid" because it does reduce life expectancy. http://www.annecollins.com/weight_health/premature-death-morbid-obesity.htm I'm willing to believe that the high risks of obesity can be offset by exercise & a healthy diet. But I am not willing to pretend that morbid obesity doesn't pose a significant health risk; a contention that goes against almost all the accepted medical evidence. Please don't take this as an insult against you, or people who suffer from this condition in general. I'm not trying to flame you, but I just believe you are wrong on this issue. I guess we'll just leave it there.

[melody]

68. Have you read this stuff?

Marie, you haven't even read the studies and books and you already know what's in them! Read "Big Fat Lies" -- it says exactly what I've said.

Yes, I'm emotionally involved in this -- I've been a fat person my whole life. I was a fat baby.
I know all of what is involved, but people who come to the table with less information seem to feel entitled to hold forth about everything. They think simply because they are thin, they are experts. They're not, for that very reason.

>The key is exercise and a low-fat diet with lots of fruits, vegetables and grains

That's what I'VE said! However, I exercise daily, have a low fat diet with all the important stuff and I'm morbidly obese. Don't think that doing those things equal thinness -- they do not.

You're reading bits of what I've said and exaggerating it into points I'm not making.

Healthy eating AND exercise are vital for ALL people. Fat people who exercise, however, are healthier than thin people who don't.

[Marie26]

69. I thought you weren't getting into this? nt

[melody]

70. What kind of argument is that?

Shall we stick thumbs in our ears and go "nyah nyah" next time? lol

I responded to you again out of courtesy because I thought you meant well. Now however, welcome
to my ignore list.

[Marie26]

72. A pretty good one

For someone who's stated they don't want to discuss the issue further. IMO, you seem to be placing thumbs in your ears & ignoring anyone who says something you don't want to hear. Just in case I have not made your ignore list, I'll try to respond to your post. I do mean well on this issue cause I know the potential consequences. Thin people are not experts, I agree, because they often haven't had to struggle w/this problem. The only real experts are, well, the medical experts & this is why I trust the medical consensus on this issue. I think it's great that you work out & have a healthy diet - most Americans don't bother. I don't believe that "exercise" = thinness, or that obesity necesarily equals not exercising. And you've got a good point when you say that healthy eating & exercise are essential for everyone. The only concern I have is blurring the line between accepting people of different shapes, & accepting that obesity itself cannot be a health problem (which, IMO, it can be). Sorry if I offended you, cause that really wasn't my intent.

[raccoon]

59. Ain't that the truth?

" People will grasp any reason to feel superior to other people, including health issues. "

[Skittles]

156. nope

you are misinterpreting the facts completely

[Arugula Latte]

31. Marie26 is correct.

The human body evolved during eons when primates/pre-humans/then modern humans exercised nearly continuously (just to survive) and were often faced with food shortages. The human body is not equipped to handle an ongoing diet of extremely high-calorie/low nutrition-value food coupled with little to no exercise. I'm not being discriminatory by stating this. Of course obese people should not be treated poorly!

[Arugula Latte]

33. Let me clarify this to say that not all obesity is a result of

overeating/underexercising. I realize that there is a percentage of people who will be obese from other factors.

[melody]

35. you are exhibiting an attitude often triggered by bias against fat people

The decrease in lifespan is there, as I've said several times, but it is very small.

I don't care if I only live another ten years (I'm 46). I have to live at peace with myself. I inform myself and make my own decisions. I suggest everyone do likewise. I'd recommend READING considerably on a subject before accepting the platitudes of a few sources simply because we emotionally want to believe them. I've read the bad and the good studies -- the negative and the positive. For a balanced view, I always recommend "Big Fat Lies" by Dr. Glenn Gaesser. I just met him a few months ago and he reiterated all of his points. He's a diet doctor, too. My own doctors concur with his analysis (they've read his book).

[eridani]

128. Nothing can be done about that

There is no diet/exercise regimen that will turn people living in a sedentary society with plenty to eat into people doing hard physical labor all day on short rations.

[Phx_Dem]

122. Some Facts

"There is no causal connection between heart disease, high blood pressure, strokes or early death and obesity. There simply isn't."

The Native Americans in Eastern Maricopa County AZ have been studied extensively because they display an extremely high rate of type II diabetes:


Kuller (1993) stated that studies of diabetes risk among the Pima Indians are some of the best examples of the interplay between epidemiology, genetics, clinical research, and basic metabolic studies. This research has yielded more information about the etiology and natural history of NIDDM than any other research.

Bogardus (1993) reported that the Pima Indians of Arizona have the highest reported prevalence of diabetes mellitus of any population in the world and it is exclusively NIDDM. Knowler et al (1993) reported that the highest rates were found in 45+ years. For males the diabetes prevalence rate was 67% and for females it was 73%.


15 years of research have yielded many conclusions:


The Indian Health Service Diabetes Program believes that Type II Diabetes can be effectively treated and possibly even prevented by appropriate lifestyle modifications. The Program lists the four causes for diabetes as follows: genetic tendency, inactivity, obesity, and a diet high in sugar. NIDDM is associated with factors that are modifiable, such as obesity and physical inactivity and with factors that are non-modifiable such as heredity and older age (Prevalence of Diabetes in American Indians and Alaskan Natives, 1996).


http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant570/Papers/King/king.htm

[mimitabby]

75. I agree Marie

Just watch the children leaving the school grounds nowadays. they don't even walk like they used to.
They shuffle. It's so sad. The problem is very big; moms are afraid to let their kids walk home
so they drive them home. the kids aren't comfortable going outside to play so they sit
and play on computer games. Then they get fat. You guys are telling me that this is NOT a serious problem?
When i was a kid (sorry, i'm older than the hills) there was maybe 1 or 2 "fat" kids in our school.
Nowadays those kids would be considered normal.

[melody]

83. There were five when I was in school in one classroom

I'm 46.

That said, there is definitely a problem with obesity in children. I keep restating things that are argued against simply because I speak out for sanity instead of old, bad information. What can remedy it in truth is a more important thing to consider rather than merely spilling out these anti-scientific platitudes. Just pushing the entire matter off on parents and children with simple-minded adjurations will harm rather than hurt, but it's the #1 choice of most informers because it makes the informer feel better about *themselves*.

These children need medical attention, compassion and understanding, not merely weight-reducing diets. Dieting does not work. It's not about "willpower" or "character", etc, etc, it's about a specific, peculiar factor or factors individual to fat people. I've been on one diet after another since I was 7 years old. I was put on speed when I was 9 to lose weight. We do horrible things to children in the guise of "helping them". It does not help.

I should also add High Fructose corn syrup as a serious factor in many children's health problems of ALL kinds.

[eridani]

127. It is the strictly genetic tendency toward diabetes--

-- which creates obesity. You have your correlation assbackwards.

[Marie26]

143. That is very simplistic.

Genetic tendencies exist for both diabetes & obesity. Environment & lifestyle bring them out. Obesity itself is an aggravating cause of diabetes; which is why the number 1 recommendation to diabetes patients is that they lose weight. Obesity causes greater insulin intolerance because the cells lose insulin receptors, requiring the pancreas to pump out much more insulin in order to lower blood sugar. Eventually, the pancreas becomes exhausted & can no longer lower blood sugar levels - creating full-flown diabetes. Even a 10% reduction in weight improves insulin sensitivity, so that less insulin is needed & blood sugar can remain stable. Weight reduction can effectively prevent diabetes. This is textbook stuff.

[eridani]

145. But when they lose weight they are still fat

Fat diabetics who reduce calorie intake and exercise more get improved insulin response even if they don't lose weight. Health improvements have no realtionship whatsoever to the amount of weight lost. Given that basic fact, why is weight loss even the focus? Making it the focus just labels people who take successful action on their health problems as failures. How in bleeding hell does that help anybody?

BTW, insulin response improves BEFORE measurable weight loss occurs. How therefore is weight loss the cause of improved response rather than just another effect?

[FlaGranny]

64. The same thing has happened - dropping the guidelines -

for blood glucose. In the last 10 or 15 years the upper limit of blood glucose was 120. Now, suddenly guidelines say it should be less than 100. My blood glucose for the last 40 years has been in the 110 to 120 range. Now, in my 60s, it is about 122. Now I'm being warned I am pre-diabetic. Absolutely NO history of diabetes in anyone on either side of my family. It's a ploy by drug companies (in collusion with some universities and the FDA) to sell their wares.

[Phx_Dem]

21. So how do you explain the dramatic increase

with type 2 diabetes?

[melody]

25. Why the dramatic increase in autism?

There are dramatic increases in illnesses all the time. We're all living longer than ever -- and we're fatter than ever.
It's easy to assert correlations where the numbers simply don't comply.

People who will have diabetes will usually get diabetes. Diabetes can be exacerbated by obesity, but diabetes is not caused by obesity.
The majority of obese people aren't diabetic. The majority of diabetic people aren't morbidly obese.

This is the only body condition where we attack the victims instead of the disease and mainly because our ignorance of it is profound.

[Phx_Dem]

26. autism

rates are going up because Drs. are diagnosing it more accurately.

Your statement: "People who will have diabetes will usually get diabetes" does not make any sense, type I and II diabetes have completely different etiologies.

[melody]

29. if you aren't going to get diabetes, you can't make yourself get diabetes

>rates are going up because Drs. are diagnosing it more accurately.

That's your supposition. There are all manner of other theories.

If you want to debate the fine points of this, I'd recommend another topic or taking it to PM. There's no causal connection between obesity and diabetes. I come from a fat family without any diabetes or heart disease -- read it and weep.

[Phx_Dem]

37. there is not a definite causal connection between

a lot of things, but that due to limitations of the inferential stats, not because there is no relationship.

>rates are going up because Drs. are diagnosing it more accurately.

"That's your supposition. There are all manner of other theories."

A study was just released about this, there is a thread on DU somewhere about it.


This suggest that in type 2 diabetes something is interfering with the action of the IRS proteins. What might it be? An estimated 80% of those who develop type 2 diabetes are obese, a tantalizing clue.
http://www.txtwriter.com/Onscience/Articles/diabetesobesity.html

Consider yourself one of the lucky 20%.

[melody]

39. It's a symptom, not a cause

>a tantalizing clue.

Sneering doesn't inform the issue, does it?

Obesity is a symptom of obesity (it's often present WITH it), as I've already said, but there's no medical evidence citing a connection. Medical evidence (rather than hunches) are what we go by, I'd hope.

[Phx_Dem]

44. I'm trying to be polite

but in order to understand scientific research you need a good understanding of inferential statistics. Frankly you sound like a cigarette manufacturer from the 50s telling people that there is no causal link between smoking and lung cancer. They were wrong huh?

[melody]

46. You aren't being polite - you're clearly not trying.

My Masters degree is in cultural anthropology. I'm quite familiar with statistics. What you are doing is overreading the data. If you want to sneer, then you'll have to find some other reason to do so.

What I'm talking about include studies done by the weight loss industry itself. Look, if you prefer to believe otherwise, do so. I've done the reading in all manner of studies and of books. Have you?

With that, I'm adding you to my ignore list. I don't like people who can't keep things on a non-emotional, factual level.

[Phx_Dem]

56. sorry you think i'm "sneering"

You obviously know that establishing causality is exceedingly difficult for many research questions, due to the multitude of variables in play, and the frequent inability to manipulate IVs.

[Phx_Dem]

123. You might want to check out this course

ANT 670
Principles of Physical Anthropology
Dr. James R. Bindon


The Indian Health Service Diabetes Program believes that Type II Diabetes can be effectively treated and possibly even prevented by appropriate lifestyle modifications. The Program lists the four causes for diabetes as follows: genetic tendency, inactivity, obesity, and a diet high in sugar. NIDDM is associated with factors that are modifiable, such as obesity and physical inactivity and with factors that are non-modifiable such as heredity and older age (Prevalence of Diabetes in American Indians and Alaskan Natives, 1996).

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant570/Papers/King/king.htm

[HuckleB]

148. Evidence was offered.

And you ignored it. So who's doing the sneering?

[WindRavenX]

74. No casual connection between obesity and diabetes?

I'm sorry, but you are very mistaken in that assertion. Type II diabetes, which is the type we're seeing an exponential increase in childhood cases in, can be an acquired ailment brought on by having too much sugar in your diet which, over time, completely kills your pancreases from producing insulin, resulting in type II diabetes. Type I diabetes is not acquired and is an auto-immune disorder that also attacks the pancreases; this is more genetically determined. Childhood obesity is clinically shown to increase acquiring type II dramatically, as does high BP in older adults. But yes, type II diabetes is almost always, not 100% but in most cases, associated with obesity, especially in children.

Glad to hear your family has a non-history of cardiovascular disorders--you're very lucky.

[melody]

82. There is no causal connection between obesity and diabetes

It has been shown time and again. You're mixing up correllation and causality. Just because a condition co-exists doesn't make it a cause.

On that note, I'm really tired of the entire thread, not just the occasional posters.

Here are some links for interested fat people with helpful information. It's all well researched. This is the stuff "conventional wisdom" about fat people is not informed about. The first one is the most important regarding all these Bush era "studies":

http://www.nyspirit.com/Issue129/article4.html
http://www.naafa.org/
http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/06/27/AR2005062701481.html?referrer=emailarticle
http://www.nyspirit.com/Issue129/article4.html

Any one is welcome to PM me for more information.

[Phx_Dem]

112. You are technically correct

But what I have been trying to point out to you is that it is unnecessary for causality to be established. A good solid correlation is all that's necessary, especially if most intervening variables have been accounted for. Ultimately, establishing causation would be preferred, but just because it hasn't yet does not mean that there is no relationship between weight and incidence of type II diabetes.

You mentioned that you are a cultural anthropologist, as such you are obviously aware that virtually NONE of the research in your field (or sociology for that matter) establishes causation. Every "study" I have ever seen from the SS fields I mentioned do nothing more than correlations.

[eridani]

130. Of course there is. Genetic diabetes causes obesity.

That's the correlation. It's like PKU.

[Phx_Dem]

137. that's a gross oversimplification

"The Program lists the four causes for diabetes as follows: genetic tendency, inactivity, obesity, and a diet high in sugar."

http://www.as.ua.edu/ant/bindon/ant570/Papers/King/king.htm

[eridani]

146. Where are the controls?

Strictly nonexistent. Is the model

1. inactivity and poor diet --> diabetes
plus
inactivity and poor diet --> obesity, or is it

2. inactivity and poor diet --> obesity--> diabetes?

I say option 2 is bullshit, and your reference has nothing in it proving otherwise.

[Phx_Dem]

152. my last post

I assume that you are talking about establishing causation which as I pointed out is not the real issue. As for controls, I assume you are talking about using control groups, they are only used in real/quasi experiments and sometimes not even then.

[eridani]

155. So, why are you arguing in favor of model #2?

There is clear evidence against it.

[saddemocrat]

138. I'll echo the others...

Unfortunately, that's not an accurate statement. You are quite fortunate to come from a family where there is obesity and no diabetes...there is likely a genetic component that predisposes individuals who become obese to insulin resistant diabetes (Type II).

Great studies have been cited for you...but probably the most striking evidence is that weight loss in the obese with type II diabetes often can result in a return to normal blood glucose levels.

Re: autism and the autism spectrum disorders...I also often wonder if this hasn't become a case of 'popular' diagnosis...especially with 'Asperger's disease'. I have also noticed a huge increase in the diagnosis of these kinds of disorders and wonder if it isn't being over-diagnosed sometimes?

[Marie26]

30. What on earth does one have to do w/the other? nt

[melody]

34. Read the context of his question

That provides the context of the information.

[FlaGranny]

65. See my post 64.

The guidelines for diagnosing diabetes have changed. I doubt the actual rate has changed all that much.

[eridani]

129. Extended life expectancy, of course

More people are living long enough to get it, and cheap glucose meters make diagnosis and monitoring vastly easier than it used to be. I'm not at all against aggressive treatment of pre-diabetics.

[eridani]

126. That just proves that men should have sex change operations--

--in order to extend their lifespans. It should work just about as well as gastric bypass surgery.

[Name removed]

3. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[pitohui]

11. it's door number 2

you said--

Alternatively, it could be that obesity among women peaked because most of the women who are genetically predisposed to become obese have done so. Because the obesity rate among women has historically led the rate for men, it could be that they reached a genetic saturation point sooner.

"Some people may be particularly vulnerable to this toxic environment in which we live," said Thomas A. Wadden of the University of Pennsylvania, president of the Obesity Society. "It's possible that most of the people who are genetically susceptible to obesity have gotten obese."



this guy nails it


all thin people know the dirty little secret is we eat as much as any of you, i cook and eat the same food as my chubby husband, there is no secret food, low fat food just makes your hungry so you eat more so you get fat quicker if there is something causing you to be fat

[Phx_Dem]

23. Maybe, ,maybe not

"all thin people know the dirty little secret is we eat as much as any of you, i cook and eat the same food as my chubby husband, there is no secret food, low fat food just makes your hungry so you eat more so you get fat quicker if there is something causing you to be fat"

I am a thin middle aged male and I eat less than everyone I know. People and employers through the years have thought that I use drugs, or have an eating disorder just because I'm thin.

[Nikia]

77. Yes, most people who eat low calorie like under 1000 calories

Will get thin and/or develop health problems, which they could die from. A minority of people with really slow metabolisms will still be overweight though, but might develop health problems too.
If a lot of people are thinking you are too thin and you are that way because you don't eat much, you relly should consider whether what you are doing is healthy. Maybe, you are fine, but if you are underweight, especially significantly you aren't really being healthier than obese people.

[melody]

81. Exactly

Extreme thinness is as unhealthy as extreme fatness. A fat person stricken with cancer survives longer than a thin person.

[Phx_Dem]

119. I thought you were ignoring me

I guess not.

[Phx_Dem]

121. faulty logic

As weight relates to "old school" chemo Tx you are correct, when a person is getting constant repeated injections of basically poison, it probably helps if the individual is overweight. That, of course, has nothing to do with whether thin or heavy people tend to be healthier.

[Phx_Dem]

118. Maybe that's the case w/caloric restriction

I don't know, there is conflicting evidence. I have read research on mice for example that seem to indicate that dramatic increases in life span can be achieved by calorie restriction, here is a summary on Wikipedia about it: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Caloric_restriction

Honestly I eat way too much crap food, but I do have a fast metabolism and get a lot of exercise. I do eat less than most people I know, but most of them eat too much or maybe don't split up their caloric intake between three meals like I do. I have a very thin frame which contributes to peoples perception of my size. So what I am saying is that I eat plenty, but with my frame I stand 6'2'' abut weigh 152lb.

[eridani]

131. That only applies to critters with very short lifespans.

BTW, the calorie restriction thing works even in genetically fat rodents. Restrict them soon after birth, and then allow them to eat freely, and they get much fatter. They also live longer because of the early calorie restriction--longer than their ad libitum fed thin littermates.

If the natural lifespan of a critter is 4 years, then a 1 year life extension is pretty dramatic, but 1 year doesn't mean squat if your lifespan is 70+. Also, when comparing rodents to large mammals, remember that most of their energy budget is expended in keeping warm, whereas larger critters have to put a lot of that into moving from point A to point B.

[Phx_Dem]

136. Maybe your right

Like I said, I don't know. In addition to research on animals, including primates, there is a fair amount of anecdotal evidence as well. I read an article in Newsweek I think, they talked to a female pediatrician who is in her late 90s, still working, she eats between 600-800 calories per day.

[Nikia]

139. My antedotal evidence says

If you eat 600-800 calories per day:
That you will develop a major mood disorder if you don't have one already, feel tired and weak, lose your libido, feel cold most of the time, and lose a good deal of strength due to muscle loss.
If you are a female of child bearing age, you will probably become infertile. On the off chance you do become pregnant, your baby will not be carried to term or be born at low birth weight and have other health issues.
You could also develop osteoporosis early in life. Overtime you are also likely to develop damage to a wide variety of organs, including and especially your heart. These will occurr quicker if you attempt to have an active life. It also depends on your genetics and how your body chooses what to burn and when to drop metabolism.
Perhaps elderly people are different and naturually drop their metabolisms. Young people who live active lifestyles usually have problems when they drop their calories that low and usually end up treated for an eating disorder. If they don't and continue in that path, it is more likely that they will die early rather than live longer.

[Phx_Dem]

142. I was not suggesting anyone should eat that little

just relaying what I read in Newsweek. The article also mentioned that life span can be increased if we "lose" our sex hormones. I think you all can figure out how that is "operationalized".

[pitohui]

154. nikia is right

anorexics living on 600-800 calories a day are at risk for heart failure and death

i have read of an anorexic dying as young as age 14 of heart failure

calorie restriction don't work for girls and young women, and it kills them frequently enough that i'm on a bit of a crusade abt it

[eridani]

147. Anecdotal evidence is nonsense

In fact, among people who are older than 80, the heavier you are, the more your additional life expectancy. Of course, those people may eat less as well.

People who live to be over 90 have nothing whatsoever in common with each other except for long-lived close relatives.

[pitohui]

116. if you're so thin it creates concern...

my friend if you are so thin it is creating concern then you may want to look v. closely at why you are eating so little and maybe question if you do have an eating disorder

i say, IF, of course if you are thin and healthy then it's nobody's business but your own and your friends should butt out w. the comments

it can be horribly difficult for a thin person to gain weight and everybody putting their two cents in about it is not necessarily all that useful

[Phx_Dem]

120. I eat fine, thanks

edit: I'm not being glib in my title, I do appreciate your concern. I know that heavy people suffer greatly with their weight in many different ways, but it seems like nearly everyone is gaining weight anymore, the few of us that don't are the oddballs these days.

[pitohui]

153. it can be a genuine struggle

my ex was rejected by the service because he was unable to gain sufficient weight, even w. help of a doctor, weight gaining supplements etc.

he did not have anorexia nervosa, he ate the same calories or more as a normal person, just couldn't gain

his brother suffered even more and had already lost a lung to pneumonia in his teens, we're talking six four, 110 pounds

"helpful" people putting in their two cents could be less than helpful and even cruel

for me it is always difficult to know when to speak up abt eating disorder issues and when to sit down and realize that it's something else going on

we simply do NOT understand why people gain or lose, it's much more subtle than we think

[SoCalDem]

79. All it means is that the insurance companies have reached

consensus on how much extra they will have to pay, and they dare not raise it any more or people will quit applying for insurance.:sarcasm:

[NYC]

84. That's probably what it means.

What in the world was Laura doing during that awful photograph? (I often ask that.)

[SoCalDem]

92. It was a formal gala for Prince Charles..apparently she was

ready for Mr DeMille to do her close-up..:)

[NYC]

95. Norma Desmond. What a similarity.

And neither one is living in the real world.

What a pose. They really are identical.

[SoCalDem]

108. check them out in black & white

[NYC]

109. Norma Desmond looks less insane.

What is so peculiar about Laura's eyes? Is it too many eye-lifts, face lifts, whatever they are called?

[NYC]

96. Lost my connection.

Then, voila! Double post. Sorry.

[eridani]

125. We don't, in general, live in a 'toxic' environment

At least those of us who don't live near places like Love Canal. An environment in which life expectancy keeps climbing isn't 'toxic' by any definition.

[WatchWhatISay]

7. I know the reason why

'Tots Getting Too Fat To Fit In Carseat'

From another DU thread
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=2204192&mesg_id=2204192

Moms getting a heck of a workout hauling those little porkers around.

[melody]

8. Would you use a pejorative term like that for any other minority

>little porkers

Change that to a racial pejorative and see how it reads. That's how I read it.

[kiraboo]

12. Well, you ought not. Overweight and obese people are not a

minority in this country: http://www.obesity.org/subs/fastfacts/Obesity_Minority_Pop.shtml

I agree that "thin" is not ideal. But for many, obese is not ideal either. While I will not argue with the suggestion that an overweight person who exercises is healthier than a thin person who does not, I would suggest that the overweight individual in general is less disposed to physical exercise than the average or thin one. It is a very good idea to point out the erroneous beliefs people have about obesity, but to ignore the dangers associated with serious overweight is to do the public a disservice. Somebody posted that the life expectancy of the obese is only 1-3 years less than average. I am willing to accept that statistic, but it does not consider quality of life issues.

For my part, I used to be a size ten. As the years have passed and I have gained weight, I am now somewhere between a six and an eight. All kinds of adjustments have been made to accomodate the weight issue! Altering the "ideal" weight is only one of them.

[melody]

14. We are a minority

Along with my rebuttal to your assertion, I'm stating all this in advance as this is the usual process of argument. I've done this many times. :) I will probably steer clear of the topic again, because it becomes very old.

We are a minority - obesity isn't overweight. Overweight people have thirty or forty pounds to lose. That is not the same thing as someone who has to deal with morbid obesity. There are no serious life expectancy issues with even primary morbid obesity. There are mobility and disability issues with it, but then there are physical problems with being black or gay or Asian or Irish or any other of the many varieties of mankind. Obese people have far greater survival periods from all forms of cancer. Obese women have less osteoporosis. Those are only two things. I was in a severe car accident and because I was obese I didn't lose my leg.

There are good and bad things about being all things. The important thing is to allow people to have their own individual dignity without insulting them or demeaning them.

There is far less statistical evidence that fat people can change their weights than there exists evidence that gay people can supposedly change. No one but a moron would try to insist any gay person change (even with various AIDS related health factors - gay women have much lower rates of pregnancy-related ailments, too). :) People are inherently many things (fat, short, near-sighted, straight, gay, etc). We don't have dignity because we can't be something else -- we have dignity because we are who we are. IMO

I have acclimated myself to my weight just as you have to yours. I go bicycling and swimming on a regular basis. I'm far more active than most of my thin friends and I'm morbidly obese. Yes, I'm disabled, I have to have physical assist to do these things. That said, someone with severe arthritis has a similar problem (no matter their weight).

One day medical science will know enough to feel very badly about how we treat fat people. I won't be around to benefit from it, but hopefully my grandchildren will.

There is no excuse for cruelty, however, especially toward children.

[Beausoir]

18. I took a bashing in that thread for stating that it is cruel to call

overweight children "baby shamu" and for asking for some solutions instead of vicious attacks.

Crickets chirping on the solutions request. Nobody had nuttin'. It's so much more fun to call little kids names than it is to actually THINK a problem through.

I despair at the level of ignorance and cruelty that we, as adults, show to our young people.

[melody]

27. such people are bullies and often borderline sociopathic

They're to be pitied. They're the same idiots that try to point out the difference in all people and thereby feel superior to them.

Any adult who calls a child "baby shamu" has a serious mental problem. Any child who does has a serious behavioral problem. I suggest most of the people doing that are trolls. Those who aren't, desperately need a reason to feel better than someone else. They're the ones with problems.

[undergroundpanther]

150. Never pity a bully

Bullies know they are hurting people and they do it because they enjoy it. Bash the bully right back and be intolerant until it is personally too painful or risky for them to get thier evil little pleasure from hurting someone else.

Bullies need to be hurt for hurting others until they learn they cannot get away with it.

Pity is wasted on bullies.Don't pity them.

[Bridget Burke]

36. Those recommendations for healthier diets & more exercise....

Were really rude, weren't they?

Yes, I know some people have medical problems that cause morbid obesity.

[melody]

38. Please read the context of the comment before commenting on it

> Were really rude, weren't they?

The other comments were = my point.

Healthy diets and exercise are important for ALL people, not merely fat ones.

[Bridget Burke]

41. I've been to the referenced thread.

The posts being "rude" to the overweight were definitely outnumbered by constructive ones.

Check out the thread & see who made the largest number of rude & angry posts.

[melody]

43. I'm not talking about the non-rude ones

And I was also discussing the full context of popular thought about fat people. There is a deeply ingrained bigotry that has little to do with medical science. That's my only point.

[Beausoir]

49. Again with the "angry" theme? Why are you so fixated on anger?

It would seem that anytime anyone doesn't go along with the fat-bashing, calling little fat kids "baby-Shamu" is funny train of thought, we are ANGRY!

Not angry...just very disappointed that so many "adults" prefer to name call rather than offer up any realistic solutions.

We all understand how diet and exercise contribute to one's body type.

I'm asking for SOLUTIONS in the public school systems and in the day care centers to help the problem. Not silly..."Oh...just stop feeding them Burger King everyday!" simplistic jingo.

Do you have any real solutions? Or..am I just being "rude and angry" for asking?

[Bridget Burke]

51. Because you ARE angry.

You ignored every constructive post & "fixated" on "baby Shamu." Which is unfair--whales are supposed to be large.

[Beausoir]

52. Uhhh....what? "Whales are supposed to be large"? What does that have to

do with anything? That makes no sense at all in the context of this discussion.

Are you like Dr. Frist in that you can "diagnose" people without ever having met them? Because that's the only excuse I can come up with for why you insist on labeling me when you have never met me.

[melody]

53. a lot of people are supposed to be large, too

My people would never have made the trudge down from the little island off the shore of Japan, if they weren't. My Anglo/Irish side would never have made it through the famines if they weren't.

YOU are focusing on one or two positive posts that over-read information and extend it into personal attacks. Your posts have now become personal attacks. If YOU are angry because someone has targeted the idiots making "baby Shamu" remarks, then this suggests to me you are one of them. Deal with your own conscience.

Read the research and make your own choices. That's all I'm saying. I'd also suggest keeping your own choices to yourself and not insisting others follow your path. Most especially, keep your ideas and prejudice away from children.

[Bridget Burke]

71. I did not make ONE rude post on that thread.

If I find a post offensive, I hit Alert. And I may reply to the post, voicing my objections. I do NOT post repeatedly accusing everyone else on the thread of cruelty when I have a problem with a few messages.

I've got plenty of Irish blood. (No English, alas.) I've never been thin & try to keep my weight within a reasonable range. Obesity is a serious & complex medical issue for which I have compassion. I've always considered myself lucky not to face that problem.

If you regard my not being obese as "my own choice"--I guess I'll have to live with your scorn.

[melody]

54. Thanks for some of the rare positive posts in this thread

The focus should always be on diet and exercise for everyone, as you've said.

I appreciate your defending fat kids. Having been one myself, I realize that the bullies from the playground very often morph into the crueler adults on public forums. lol

[Beausoir]

55. Back at you! I will NEVER condone the cruelty this society shows to kids

in the form of name calling and ostracizing based on body-type.

We all want healthy children and we need to help them get there. Only a simpleton could miss that point in my argument.

I am amazed that the same people who claim that parents who have overweight children are ABUSERS, are the very same people who defend hurling terribly cruel slurs at the same children.

For little kids, words can be deadly weapons. I will NEVER back down in my defense of them in that regard.

And with that...I have 4 little mouths to feed lunch! Lol!

[Phx_Dem]

60. defend all kids

"I appreciate your defending fat kids. Having been one myself, I realize that the bullies from the playground very often morph into the crueler adults on public forums. lol"

bullies pick on all kinds of kids that don't "fit in", not just the fat ones.

[Beausoir]

98. You are so right. We need more people like you.

Kids are such treasures.

[diamidue]

67. "adults" prefer to name call

Not angry...just very disappointed that so many "adults" prefer to name call rather than offer up any realistic solutions.
------------------------
Come on. You didn't reach adulthood without realizing that "adults" (and children) will often resort to name calling. Too fat, too skinny, too big of ears, too long a nose - you name it. You cannot realistically expect people to change. Never expect it and you won't be disappointed. And don't ask for realistic solutions either. Other people can't know your body and how your body responds - we all function somewhat differently. I get tired of people - often with the best of intentions - telling me how to take care of my health when they know nothing of my body type or my genetic history. But that is life.

[Beausoir]

99. Welcome to DU, diamidue! You seem like a kindly sort of person.

Best wishes to you.

[Teresa4ChrisCarney]

151. please direct me to the thread

where there are constructive suggestions about how not to be rude. I think we need one.

ps...why are you so emotional over other people's weight?

[eridani]

132. They have no relationship whatsoever to obesity

A fat person who exercises regularly and weighs 20-30 lbs less as a result is STILL FAT!

[Theres-a]

50. My but you're crass.

[WatchWhatISay]

107. I apologize to all I have offended

And I guess that was a crass remark.

Ironic because I am a mom with as real weight problem myself.

I'll have to spend some time thinking about all of this.

[progressivebydesign]

9. maybe because women have found out about HFCS...

and are avoiding it. High fructose corn syrup... the CHEAP way to sweeten most all processed foods, and the quickest way to gain tons of weight. The food manufacturers, who are so utterly concerned with your well being, want to maximize profits, while destroying your health with the cheapest syrup on Earth.

[pitohui]

13. and because we women are so mean spirited

we deliberately cook the special fat foods for our hubbies and our kiddies so we can feel superior

listen to yourself

having an OK overweight husband i've heard it all and i don't appreciate it

i cooked low fat food for 2 decades, result, hubby ate a fraction of the calories i eat or any normal person would eat and still gained

there is something else going on

it is not mean-spirited women hogging all the special magic diet foods to themselves

if nothing else, it's too much effin trouble to cook a different meal for every family member, you eat what i cook, and i'm thin, sooooo?

i go w. the theory that women who are genetically susceptible to the estrogens in the environment are now maxed out, but potentially EVERY man and every growing child can suffer from exposure to such since they are not designed for it whereas at least some women's bodies can roll w. the estrogenic mimic chemicals and not gain

[AllieB]

22. You're right-there is something else going on

there is no conclusive evidence that low-cal and low-fat foods mean better health. My husband battled the bulge for years, and was diagnosed with Type 2 Diabetes at 34. Eating the typical diabetic diet of high-carb and low cal sent his blood sugar into the stratosphere. We started to eat a low carb diet, getting our carbs from vegetables and occasionally whole grains, and his blood sugar is now on the low end of normal. Both of our cholesterol numbers dropped also. Like you, I'm also thin, but managed to lose 10 lbs of flab eating this way. We eat no white flour, no white sugar, and no processed foods. I think that is the key, and even if you look at a lot of these low-cal quick foods, they're full of preservatives.

[KittyWampus]

45. estrogenic mimic chemicals- good supposition. Also, HFCS & may I suggest

trace drugs in our water supply? Both my brothers are on serious anti-psychotic meds and gained a lot of weight.

Think of all the trace amounts we are putting into our water supply through daily body functions.

[melody]

15. That accounts for some overweight, some obesity, but not all

Obesity is a high complex physical state about which very little is known.

[Phx_Dem]

62. other than if you consume more calories

than you burn your going to gain weight.

[VelmaD]

111. Don't confuse the issue with logic

I was obese until about 4 years ago. Then I cut my calorie consumption dramatically. Started eating healthier foods...more fruits and veggies, less fatty meats and almost no snack foods. But my weight from 300 pounds to 150. It wasn't rocket science...just the oldest answer in the bood...eat well, eat reasonable portions, and exercise.

[eridani]

133. When I stay out of the sun, my skin stays light

When I'm outdoors, it's darker. Obviously black people are white people who spend too much time in the sun, and if staying inside doesn't lighten their skin, they are just doing it wrong.

[UpInArms]

17. I despise HFCS

and avoid it like the plague - have for years. I have had to give up many things because they are now saturated in it.

Two of my favorite things that were once available at any grocery store: blueberry pancake syrup that was only made from blueberries :( now only available at specialty stores (none anywhere near me and now cost prohibitively expensive; cranberry juice - used to be made from cranberries :( now I can only get it in the frozen concentrate from a specialty store and it's also cost prohibitive.

So sad to see our food supply poisoned by HFCS and MSG (another nasty that they have taken to putting into lots of foods - and buying foods without is always more expensive.

[KittyWampus]

47. Apple & Eve makes juices with no corn syrup. I, muself stopped drinking

all fruit juice (even straight kind with no sweetners) except at parties and that's with some carbonated water splashed in.

In Chinese Dietary Theory- fruit juice is advantageous for only some body types. For most people it causes a "Damp" climate which contributes to slowed metabolism.

[SmokingJacket]

85. Yeah, we don't do juice of any kind in my house.

My kids think I'm the meanest mother *ever.* It's milk, water, or nuttin.

[diamidue]

58. HFCS

True. What is interesting is that HFCS has been around about 30 years now and that seems to coincide with America's obesity epidemic. Back in 1970 we consumed only 1/2 pound of HFCS per person and we're now consuming over 60 pounds per person. The biggest culprit seems to be sodas. This HFCS - if it doesn't make you obese, it WILL make you sick in the long run. Just say no to processed foods and sodas.

[DUHandle]

19. This study sounds only half true

Obesity isn't specific to women.

[mconvente]

48. I don't see how anyone can claim that morbid obesity is not a big deal

For someone who is morbidly obese, there is a myriad of extra tissue that needs nutrition - this means extension/growth of new blood vessels. Of course, the heart remains the same size. Starling's Law of the Heart maintains that the amount of blood entering the heart equals the amount of blood leaving the heart. Because blood in obese people must travel a longer distance (at a faster speed as well) to maintain a good blood flow back into the heart, blood pressure must go up. There's no arguing that fact - it's all physics and makes perfect sense.

High blood pressure is known to be unhealthy. It puts stress on our thing capillaries and causes numerous other problems.

I just don't see how melody can claim that morbid obesity can pretty much be ignored. Increased food intake (specifically complex carbohydrates and refined sugars) will lead to an increased concentration of sugar within the blood, eventually leading to diabetes.

What gets me here (and I'm ready for the flame shield) is how people can support telling a smoker that smoking will kill you and those around you (2nd hand smoke) - some being really rude about it too - and yet we let morbidly obese people get a free pass. That doesn't mean you have to be an asshole about it - I don't advocate that at all. But if we can tell smokers "hey, smoking isn't the best thing for you, let's start a healthier smoke-free lifestyle", then why would the same person who tells an obese person "hey, let's start exercising - tons of studies say that cardio has positive influences on your health - and get on the path to a healthier lifestyle" be infringing on the "dignity" of an obese person. It doesn't make any sense to me at all.

In simple terms, anyone who thinks morbid obesity is akin to "light smoking" is living in fantasy land.

[melody]

57. read the research and make your own conclusions

When people weight train, they add extra weight. This strengthens muscles, including the heart. It's entirely possible this is one of the off-setting factors. The fact of the matter is the research shows a minimal impact on longevity. It simply does. There IS one ... obesity is definitely disabling ... but it's not the "fat people die young" myth that we're all told. It simply isn't. If you don't believe me, talk to a weight doctor who's gone to school in the last ten years.

>and yet we let morbidly obese people get a free pass.

I didn't realize there were people giving out free passes! Who are they? I want one! lol I've been verbally attacked in supermarkets by *chain smokers*, for heaven's sake. My mother (an alcoholic) hated fat people. Many, many times people direct their own control issues at obvious targets - like fat people and smokers. Most people have their control issues hidden. We unfortunate ones do not. But our health is our business -- not theirs. Who is anyone to hand out "free passes" to a fellow flawed human being?

>There's no arguing that fact - it's all physics and makes perfect sense.

It may make "perfect sense" (which seems to be the emotional version of "common sense"), but it's not true. Obesity does not cause hypertension. It simply doesn't. It MAY improve existing hypertension to lose weight, but not in all cases.

>tons of studies

Cite them with sources, not hyperbole. I've given mine here and will give others in PM if asked.

>(and I'm ready for the flame shield) i

My friend, I'M the one being flamed. People just hate to have their comfortable prejudices questioned. I'm just saying people should INFORM THEMSELVES and not believe conventional wisdom -- if the snipes at me aren't a clear sign that prejudices are being questioned, I don't know what is.

It's like rationally discussing gayness with fundamentalist Christians. They've been taught so long to see things from only one perspective, they can't see it any other way.

>just don't see how melody can claim that morbid obesity can pretty much be ignored.

Where did I say that?

[CTyankee]

73. Thanks, Melody

I've learned a lot from the info you presented in this thread. Do you have any info on body shape and its consequences? I remember reading about pear shaped vs. apple shaped people. I'm wondering if that is something of a hype too.

[melody]

78. Pear shaped women live longer

According to the recent stats.

Thanks for the nice words ... I had the feeling I was the lone fat kid on Muscle Beach. lol

[CTyankee]

87. No, you arenot the lone person

Your information was to me a deep, and deeply moving, explication of your situation in life. It is instructive.

You know so much that is useful for people. It is too bad that your platform isn't much wider. I have the feeling that in 50 years or so your words will be accepted as truth by everyone.

We never know, do we? We just keep going on, don't we? Keep going, old gal. Another old gal has your back.

[melody]

101. Thank you, my friend

Your kinds posts helped a lot.

Yup, fifty years from now, as I've said, and probably more like 100, we'll know enough to feel awful (in retrospect) about the way we treat fat people (just as people now feel badly about burning smart women as witches, etc). Superstition returns to us in many forms, no matter how "advanced" we think we are as a society. Isn't it amazing? :)

[Phx_Dem]

63. don't confuse people w/the facts ;) n/t

[WindRavenX]

76. you're spot on

I'm a pre-med student and a lot of the information in this thread is simply incorrect.
There is a difference from wanting a society that respects all citizens regardless of body weight, but it's another to dismiss it as being not a health issue.

[melody]

80. Then you should have words with my doctor

It's not simply wrong. Based upon your disputing "facts" I haven't stated, I doubt you've read any of my posts.

When did I dismiss obesity as a health issue? People want to react against fat people so they see their general points and attack them without reading details.

I am morbidly obese and have been all my life (just like my 85 year old aunt and most of my family). I only state this to help others who are fat -- believe me, you become a target for every misguided medical moralist. lol I am NOT an exception -- my 300 pound mother-in-law is also quite hail and hearty at 82 years of age). The decrease in lifespan exists, but it's small -- fat people shave, even at considerable morbid obesity, 10 years off lifespan, not 30 or 40 years s many people think. It's also quite simply a fact that obesity is usually incurable. WLS is a risky procedure. Obesity IS disabling, but there is a greater likelihood of kicking heroin than there is of losing weight and keeping it off. Yoyo dieting is unhealthy. It's better on the body to simply stay at a larger weight than to continually lose and gain.

As such, the right choice for many fat people may be eating healthy and exercising, and not focusing on thinness as a sign of "health". It also provides a degree of peace of mind no amount of extra years could possibly make up for.

[WindRavenX]

90. You're right that body size isn't a fool-proof indicator of one's health..

...I'm certainly not going to dispute that. And you're also right that yo-yo dieting isn't healthy However in general obestiy does have very large impacts on one's health, impacts that I think you do not fully credit. That's all.

[melody]

91. And I think you're exaggerating the health "impacts" markedly

It's healthier for people to remain at one elevated weight than it is for them to yo-yo diet.

Dieting for obese people is exceedingly difficult, creating a great deal of stress. The impact of
stress on health can also not be understated. Slender people (who've never been obese) can have no idea of the impact of dieting on the dieter. It's substantial.

The simple statistics show a very small difference between obese people and slender people in terms of longevity. And not just in the Nurse's Study.

[WindRavenX]

94. I go by what I know for sure

1)Obesity raises blood pressure, which affects the heart, the kidneys, eyes, and many other vital organs.
2)More mass puts more pressure on the heart from gravity
3)Obesity is linked to diabeties; this isn't just a correlation, this is scientifically factual and it's in all of my clinical physiology texts in front of me. It is linked to sharp raise in risk for getting type II diabeties.

Now, the degree of these impacts certainly vary. However, I still feel you downplay the health risk associated by being obese. Not everyone is going to be impacted in the same way, but you will be at risk for several disorders.

[melody]

100. rebuttal - and the last one :)

I really need to get back to my deadline after this. lol

First, I'd like to thank you for remaining civil during this discussion. There have been a couple of people who have not (while knowing nothing of what they're discussing -- I know this by virtue of their judgmental remarks about fat people). I appreciate kindness whereever I find it.

1) Yes, it does. So does swelling. I have normal blood pressure. There are millions of slender people with high blood pressure.
2) Yes, and weight also strengthens the heart muscle. Sheer weight is going to have the same effect. Weight is what impacts, not merely the distribution of the body mass, as someone suggested in a PM. This may well make up for the health impacts of obesity on the heart.
3) It's linked, absolutely. I've said that a hundred times. That doesn't mean it causes it. It doesn't.

Regardless, the simple fact of the matter is, study after study shows there is a very small decrease in longevity from slenderness to obesity. Those are the facts -- they cannot be disposed of simply because the theory doesn't conform to them.

[WindRavenX]

102. Ahh I found your key:

udy after study shows there is a very small decrease in longevity from slenderness to obesity.

That's quite a distinction, but longevity does not translate into a happy, healthy life. Chronic, lifelong obesity takes years off your life and does decimate your health eventually for most individuals. I'll go what's in my medical books.
And that's all I'll say on this any more.

[melody]

106. Happy and healthy are in the eye of the beholder

Live forty-six years as a morbidly obese woman and then tell me differently. :)

Namaste.

[eridani]

134. "Straining the heart" is good for you

That's why we do aerobic exercise and weight training, isn't it?

[Mike03]

89. You are So right

I hate to post on these controversial threads, but some folks around here are simply in denial and totally ridiculous.

In most cases obesity is avoidable by eating intelligently and exercising and paying attention to studies in health.

It's really embarrassing to see some of the ignorant posts that have been put up in frantic defense of obesity.

[melody]

97. Bigotry is based on ignorance

Bigotry is based on ignorance in all cases. It's not my job to inform yours.

This is a real problem in this country -- people holding forth about things they've never studied based on "common sense" they've accepted without intellectually testing the information in the first place. You're the one in denial, believing what you'd like to believe. I know what of I speak. I've done the research. I can always tell when people know very little about what they're talking about. They're very big on black-and-white, simple-minded Aristotelian declarations again other peoples' behaviors.

Welcome to my ignore list.

[Marie26]

124. Whew! You're on a roll. nt

[Beausoir]

103. WindRaven..I have enjoyed your posts for quite some time....

You have always struck me as a thoughtful person.

Best of luck in your pre-med pursuits. It's a long haul, as I'm sure you are aware. (I put my husband through pre-med and then med school.)


PLEASE...be kind to your fat patients. Be extra kind. You have NO idea what they have been through just to come in and see you.

Be extra kind. That's the best way you can help.

[WindRavenX]

104. trust me, I know

I'm a very chubby woman myself, and I'm terribly short - 4'11''. So I know what it's like not to be a twig, because I'm not :(

I still haven't decided if I want to go to med school or teach; I lean toward teaching because I think more people need to learn to love science...but I don't know.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

88. I've got to agree that there ARE health risks associated with morbid

obesity.

I'll just focus one example I've lived, personally. I'm a nurse and during my years on a medical/surgical unit, observed the difficulty in recovering from surgery that morbidly obese patients experience.

Wound dehiscience, pressure sores, reduced pulmonary functionality, blood clots...the list goes on and on.

One may be in somewhat decent shape when morbidly obese, however, any event can be a crisis...especially trauma or emergency surgery.

MKJ

[melody]

93. And there are health deficits and benefits in any physical difference

What is the survival rate of slender people with Stage 3 cancer? Do you know? I do. It's not pretty. Fat people live twice as long. My friend Monica lived long enough to beat it.

Fat people have higher instances of heart disease, however those things can be addressed with exercise, diet change and medication.

We have psychologically focused on one group. We fail to see the whole context of these issues. The thin person in this society is given a special place and learns to accept his/her elevated place as a birthright. They haven't been taught that there are drawbacks to thinness, also.

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

110. As long as a morbidly obese person doesn't need surgery, than I guess

they're fine.

However, post-surgical complications and outcomes are much better for those who are not morbidly obese.

MKJ

[melody]

114. True, and there are things that endanger thin people also

We just need to account for the fact that people are different. We shouldn't have OSFA medicine.

[pitohui]

115. it's hard for some people to accept

one of my friends was an athlete who developed hodgkin's disease in his 30s, altho he did recover (recovery rates for this illness are terrific w. modern chemo) he was extremely angry and depressed at the weight gain caused by his treatment

his oncologist had to sit him down and explain to him that he should not be trying to lose weight, he needed the weight to give him padding to ride it out during chemo/radiation when he was unable to eat

a v. thin person, who cannot get any appetite or keep the food down, can be killed by the chemo needed to kill their cancer

[melody]

117. exactly. well said. n/t

[BleedingHeartPatriot]

135. I don't have to "accept" that morbid obesity is a major risk factor for

surgery. It is a fact supported by clinical evidence. And, in this particular medical situation, thinner people have a significant statistical advantage, experiencing less complications and less deaths.

And, of course, thinner patients can have problems, as well. However, as clinical studies have repeatedly shown, the odds of having a complications post surgically increase significantly with morbid obesity.

When one is morbidly obese, the large amount of adipose tissue creates problems in closing the incision, keeping it closed and having it heal without difficulty (one needs a good vascular source for optimum wound healing, something which adipose tissue does not provide.)

Additionally, morbid obesity greatly increases the chances of pressure sores and blood clots when the patient is prone, for even a short period of time. There are also issues with pulmonary recovery from general anesthetia.

As much as one wants to promote the health benefits of morbid obesity, this is one instance in which one is at a medical disadvantage.

BTW, in my nursing career, I've worked with athletes,particularly long distance runners, who have almost 0% body fat. Many suffered from chronic upper respiratory and sinus infections, because, we humans need a decent amount of body fat to utilize the fat soluble vitamins which boost the immune system.

I'm not saying that no one should have any body fat. I am saying the extremes on both ends are not as healthy as somewhere in the middle.


MKJ

[Jose Diablo]

61. Does this mean they will level out at say..220 or 230? n/t

[SmokingJacket]

86. Meanwhile, adult anorexia is on the rise.

http://abcnews.go.com/GMA/HealthyWoman/story?id=808891&page=1

Coincidence? I think not.

[melody]

105. exactly. excellent link. n/t

[Nikia]

140. It seems that at least one poster would think that is a good thing

Eating near starvation levels does not increase human lifes span. It usually decreases it.
Anorexia is not fun. Even those who live with it experience a decrease in quality of life, not an increase.

[HuckleB]

149. However, that may have more to do with improved diagnosis.

With health care practitioners calling a spade a spade, as has been noted with autism. (Sorry, the autism piece was mentoned above. Couldn't resist.)

Cheers!

[Odin2005]

113. Obesity isn't bad per se, it's Obesity and LAZINESS.

I am obese, yet I also get pretty good exersize. my blood pressure and cholesterol levels are completely normal.

[onecent]

141. I've got 15 grandchildren and the heavy ones are the ones

who eat fast food EVERY night, don't participate in ANY sports and the parents think good parenting is giving and giving and giving (which includes food/candy/cookies/snaks/....plus computers, gameboys, etc.

The ones who are in shape are in judo/cheerleading, gymnastics, baseball,basketball, soccer, etc.

The difference in the family situations is pretty dramatic....but I kind of feels sorry for the little ones who don't have the correct parenting, because they have a difficult time at school...when they are called names.

[hedgehog]

144. I have seen many advances in our understanding of how we

metabolize foods - for example, when I was in high school, if you had claimed that trans fats were bad for the body or that corn syrup would cause a more rapid rise in blood sugar than other types of sugar you would have been called a quack. I think we are seeing the results of eating a lot of factory food, too many hidden sugars, too much hidden salt, no fiber, a lot of trace nutrients removed etc combined with a life style that prevents normal movement. At the very least, when I spend an hour a day commuting, that's an hour a day I'm not walking.


At the same time, we are only beginning to understand that one size doesn't fit all. There are different body types to begin with. I would further suggest that different ethnic types are more susceptible to different diseases. It may be that it's normal for one person to be heavy, but for the next person the same weight is the first step on the road to diabetes.