Ecoterror Suspect Commits Suicide in Jail

[norml]

Ecoterror Suspect Commits Suicide in Jail


PHOENIX (AP) -- An Arizona bookstore owner charged in the firebombing of a government wildlife lab in Washington committed suicide in his jail cell Thursday, officials said.

William C. Rodgers, 40, of Prescott, Ariz., suffocated after placing a plastic bag over his head while in a one-person cell in Flagstaff, the Coconino County medical examiner said.

Rodgers was one of six people arrested earlier this month in connection with ecoterror attacks in Oregon and Washington in recent years.

He was accused of setting fire to the Agriculture Department's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services facility in Olympia, Wash., in 1998.


snip


http://hosted.ap.org/dynamic/stories/E/ECOTERROR_ARREST?SITE=FLTAM&SECTION=US

[havocmom]

1. Where'd the plastic bag come from?

[Oversea Visitor]

2. That was what I was going to ask too

n/t

[OKthatsIT]

9. This one was suicided. Plastic bag? Yarite.

People do not do this successfully. Instinct kicks in and one would rip the bag off. Sorry, I dont believe this story. These guards in prisons are horrible,then imagine being accused of being an enemy of the state. Why wait for a trial, ey?

[Raine]

10. Yes to commit suicide

that way you take sleeping pills first and then before you drop off you put the plastic bag over your head. I actually read how to do this in a book on the order of Final Exit.

I don't believe this story for a minute it.

[Oversea Visitor]

12. Too suspicious

and I hate the term ECOTERRO. Gee they being branded terrorist. Are environmentalist terrorist nowadays.

[KittyWampus]

80. If An Environmentalist Sets A Lab On Fire They Can Arguably Be Called

terrorists. Though that does seem inflated. Brain dead Arsonist at the very least. That this was arson of a Govt. building does lend a bit of credence to terrorist.

Are you saying you're going to defend that?

Note:

I'm not claiming person was or was not suicided. Nor am I assuming prisoner was guilty or innocent.

[Canuckistanian]

89. Funny how White Supremacists aren't branded as terrorists

And yet, by definition, that's what they are. They try to terrorize their victims for political aims.

[pitohui]

55. friend of mine suicided by plastic bag

it is supposedly one of the easiest and most peaceful ways to go, if you believe final exit

in any case, there is no doubt that it is an effective method that is prob. done every day

[EST]

6. It's in the optional "suicide ki" that some arrestees receive

along with the orange jump suit and slippers. Lots of other interesting things sometimes show up in those pesky "welcome to the pokey" kits.

[crikkett]

27. I'm curious to hear more about the kits...

do share?

[EST]

38. Extreme tongue-in-cheek mental horror poetry,

after the many jailhouse suicides, recently, bfee connected suicides and disappearances, coupled with bitterness at Ahnold the murderer and his insistence on his own reclamation and social re-integration, all the while denying the humanity of others.
Such darkness of mind does occasionally force me into penning a bed wetting thriller or two.

Edited to add:The one night I was priveleged to spend in jail still moves me with its wierdness, prvation and general inanity.

[TomClash]

13. The hands of a murderer nt

[Nevernose]

68. Sherrif's Dept.: bags are standard issue, and their only suicide

The plastic bag is standard issue to hold personal possessions in, and apparantly nobody thought anyone would want to commit suicide that way, at least according to the Coconino County Sherriff's Dept. It's also the only suicide they've had since the new jail opened in 2000.

I'm not an expert on the subject, but I did stay at a Holiday Inn Express last night. Literally. The interview was on their local news this morning.

[MisterP]

3. Fred Hampton redux?

[pitohui]

56. hampton was gunned down

i'm not willing to concede that the cases are at all similar w.out a lot more information

[Straight Shooter]

4. A 40-year-old man willing to risk prison to rescue animals commits suicide

Hmmm. Yeah, right, sure, I believe that. :eyes:

[darkism]

11. If I may...

How is "setting fire to the Agriculture Department's Animal and Plant Health Inspection Services facility" helping to rescue animals?

This guy is another reason why the "animal rights"/"radical environmentalist"/anti-consumerism movements doesn't get much respect. His death was tragic...but that doesn't change the fact that he was still accused of being an arsonist.

[LincolnMcGrath]

14. Actually he was called an ECO-TERROR suspect.

Arsonists are guys like Ken Lay who burn buildings for insurance fraud, I guess.

When they control the language, we will never win the argument.

[The Stranger]

16. Please awaken -- corporate media has an interest in protecting fellow

corporate interests (indeed, may even be affiliated on some level) -- you need to obtain other information and other sources to get the whole picture.

Please awaken.

[Straight Shooter]

19. Oh, you may. Rightfully so.

I failed to read the article (too late at night). Misinterpreted it as involving animals. In a way, I guess it does. The destruction of the planet certainly affects animals in a detrimental manner, as well as humans.

Sometimes I jump on my high horse and then suddenly realize I'm facing the wrong end of the horse! :7

[baldguy]

28. Terrorists try to kill people.

As far as I can see, this guy didn't try to kill anybody.

[Psephos]

33. Lighting buildings on fire frequently kills people

and in the most horrible way, too. Someone who lights a building on fire thinks that's a chance worth taking.

Peace.

[MercutioATC]

35. Actually, terrorists, by definition, try to cause terror.

I agree, though, that this act doesn't seem particularly terror-inducing.

Illegal as hell, yes, but nothing to cause "terror".

[Lorien]

86. "Vandals" is the proper term. "Eco-terrorists" is RW spin.

Hummers, earth moving equipment, and facilities to not feel terror.

[SOS]

37. To gain respect as an arsonist

one must work for a landlord.

From Robert Worth's book on the Bronx:

"the Bronx began to burn in about 1970. Many fires were set by landlords who would then collect the insurance money. Often they would sell the building--whether it was still inhabited or not--to "finishers" who would strip out the electrical wiring, plumbing fixtures, and anything else that could be sold for a profit before torching it. "Sometimes there'd be a note delivered telling you the place would burn that night," one man who lived through the period told me. "Sometimes not." People got used to sleeping with their shoes on, so that they could escape if the building began to burn."

Thousands of apartments burned, but the word "terrorism" was never mentioned. Guess it depends on who the arsonist is working for.

[pitohui]

58. it depends on motive

a terrorist acts to provoke political change

a criminal, in this case the garden-variety arsonist, acts to put money in his pocket or for another petty personal motive such as the pleasure of vandalism

the difference is pretty clear cut to me, however, i don't really care abt yr motives, if you are fire-bombing bldgs or paying others to fire-bomb bldgs you don't need to be walking around free in society for a very long time

i do not believe that a terrorist should enjoy more cred or more status than a mere criminal yet any time the gov't or media labels someone a terrorist, suddenly they are seen as a more important and more serious person than the other lowlifes, not sure such language is really productive any more, we need to give terrorists less attention to their causes and not more attention since the attention reward is what they seek

so, me, if i'd been prosecutor, i would have leaned on prosecuting the guy as a sicko bed-wetting garden variety arsonist, after all, i'm not a shrink, his motives aren't important, just proof that he did the deed -- and by trivializing motive, i discourage copycats from thinking such acts a good way to self-promote

make sense at all?

[merh]

45. Accused is the key word.

He allegedly did the deed, so he allegedly "is another reason why the "animal rights"/"radical environmentalist"/anti-consumerism movements doesn't get much respect"

Consider your words and consider why adopting their conclusions is not a good idea.

[NVMojo]

5. something seems foul here ...

[stonedpika]

22. Shhh, listen, listen up...

Can you hear the black choppers in the background? they are listening to us I tell you...

Really, must we find a conspiracy in EVERY piece of news that goes "against" the polical views of this site?

This needs to stop if you want to be taken seriously

[htuttle]

23. Just one question, then...

How the *fuck* do you suffocate yourself with a plastic bag?

Sure, you can try and hold it tight around your neck, but as soon as you pass out, you will let go of the bag. What -- did they hand him a roll of duct tape to fasten the bag around his neck, too?

Ignoring obviously suspicious facts is no more sane than seeing conspiracies everywhere you look.

[pitohui]

59. it's done every day

as i said upstream, it is actually quite easy & is a recommended method by some, such as the authors of final exit

when you put the bag over yr head and breathe in, it sucks into yr mouth & nose, and even if you change yr mind & try to get it off, you're prob. screwed

the method is effective, unfortunately, as i said above, a friend did this who was too young and strong to die, so i know it works

it's a sad thing that someone feels such desperation but don't play w. this, plastic bags don't have to be held tight about the neck to kill, would that they did, even people into breath play for sexual purposes generally know better than to mess w. plastic bags if they want to enjoy their sport more than once

[KittyWampus]

81. How do you suffocate yourself in a plastic bag? ASK THE CHILDREN WHO DIE

ever notice the warning labels on some plastic bags? They're there cause some kids suffocated from them.

[LeighAnn]

24. You've not been around here long

In all likelihood, you might not have the facts about a lot of things yet. This one is pretty obvious to those of us schooled about the ways of the Evil Empire.

[stonedpika]

25. That's pretty condescending LeighAnn

What makes you think I haven't been around here long enough? The number of posts? Not jumping to conclusions are you?

I guess if your thesis is right, given the correct period of time, we will all have the same exact thoughts and drive the same exact conclusions?

Can you say Echo Chamber? Chamber, chamber.... chamber........chamber

[Name removed]

30. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[LeighAnn]

36. People who don't know are often naive

They don't understand the depth of the depravity in our current tyrannical order of things. Anyone who knew wouldn't be making cracks about black helicopters and what-not. People who have been around here a while can generally spot when someone has been suicided. People who spend a lot of time in the Latest Breaking News forum see this all the time. People who get their news from other sources generally have no idea.

[tkmorris]

39. First of all

Your initial post in this thread was the epitome of condescending. Golden rule brah, if you don't want to be spoken down to, don't do it to others.

Furthermore, there have been a great many things discussed here over the past few years that have been scoffed at as "tin foil hat" material by people such as yourself. Once upon a time it was suspected that a White House pool reporter may not have been quite what he seemed. He always seemed to have a big hanging curveball to serve up to ole Scottie whenever he found himself struggling. How'd that conspiracy theory turn out anyway? I forget...

We are anything but an echo chamber. We are an open-minded group of people who disagree far more than we agree on any subject you'd care to name. As a matter of fact if I had to define the core of DU, I would say that we are quite simply a group of people that refuse to keep our heads buried in the happy sand any longer.

So, thanks anyway for the advice, and welcome to DU. May you find more enlightenment here than you expected to.

[thebigidea]

67. if you think this place is an "echo chamber," that pretty much proves...

... that, no, you haven't been here long enough to actually read many threads. We viciously squabble about every conceivable topic. Good luck trying to find one thing all of us agree on apart from Bush being a very poor President.

[Psephos]

70. Sorry to disagree with you, but... (heh heh)

I don't think Bush is a poor President. He made his millions (or shall we say was given his millions), and thinks just like a wealthy man, too. ;-)

Merry Christmas, Happy Chanukah, Ramadan Mubarak, Cool Kwanzai!

[Norquist Nemesis]

26. hmmmm....

Is that satire or a crack in the mask?

[Name removed]

29. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[John Q. Citizen]

42. I guess we just don't want to be taken seriously by facists, sob...

Sorry. We (and I am speaking for all 70,000 + registered users here except for you, the only one with common sense) will never do it again.

Thanks for pointing out the error of our ways to us. I can see you have a lot of experience here.

[Psephos]

43. Heh heh...that'll bring the site enforcers out of the woodwork n/t

[stepnw1f]

75. polical? Hide the Pickle... what?!

How dare you.....!

[Vickers]

88. "This needs to stop if ***you*** want to be taken seriously"

Interesting choice of words.

Oh, and welcome to DU yadda yadda yadda...

[uppityperson]

7. This is weird.

Not knowing the person, it still seems weird. RIP W. Rodgers

[Humor_In_Cuneiform]

8. Amen to that. RIP. Sad story, strange story. n/t

[MercutioATC]

15. Anybody who firebombs a building is not all there mentally anyway...

I don't have a problem believing he'd possibly be crazy enough to kill himself.

[pinerow]

17. Anyone who is "Accused" of fire bombing...

let's not put the cart before the horse...

[MercutioATC]

18. I stand corrected. He has (had?) the presumption of innocence.

regardless, you get my point...

[pinerow]

20. As a matter of fact...I do not get your point...

I consider people who bomb anything that may endanger inncocent lives "crazy"...However,I'm not quite ready to "star chamber" anyone just yet...

[MercutioATC]

21. By your post, I see that you DO get my point.

I've conceded that this man did not stand trial so his guilt remains unproven.

However, you seem to agree that if he DID firebomb a building he may have not been entirely sane.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

31. I doubt seriously that you have any particular training to....

...diagnose anyone as being mentally unstable.

[MercutioATC]

34. You're correct. However, you said, yourself, that

"I consider people who bomb anything that may endanger inncocent lives "crazy"..."

THAT'S my point.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

71. You've got the wrong poster. I never posted that remark.

[MercutioATC]

78. Oops, you're right. You answered my post to pinerow...

...and I replied, not realizing the author had changed...

[merh]

46. Even if he had done as he was accused.

How do you explain the "suffocating of oneself with a plastic bag"?

I just don't see how that is physically possible. Please explain how you see that it is.

[MercutioATC]

47. It's easy...

Put a plastic bag over your head until you're dead.

It's impossible to hold your breath until you die or strangle yourself. You'll pass out and start breathing. If there's something blocking your mouth and nose (like a plastic bag), you'll suffocate.

[merh]

48. I don't agree

The natural response of the body would be to ripe the bag from your face when the oxygen is cut off.

[MercutioATC]

49. The American Journal of Forensic Medicine and Pathology disagrees with you

Plastic Bag Asphyxia in Southeast Scotland.
American Journal of Forensic Medicine & Pathology. 21(4):401-405, December 2000.
Jones, L. S; Wyatt, J. P. F.R.C.S; Busuttil, A. F.R.C.P


Abstract:
Death resulting from plastic bag asphyxia has been recognized for >40 years, but relatively little is known about either its epidemiology or its pathophysiology. Over 15 years (1984-1998), 30 deaths were attributed to plastic bag asphyxia among the 14,560 autopsies performed in the Forensic Medicine Unit in Edinburgh. These 30 deaths involved 20 male and 10 female subjects, with an age range of 13 to 81 years. Eleven had some alcohol measurable in the blood, with four having levels >80 mg/dl. Only one individual appeared to have ingested a drug overdose, but inhaled substances within the plastic bag may have contributed to death in five cases. The absence of childhood accidental deaths may reflect successful preventive measures. The 3 accidental deaths involved adults (including 2 who died of autoerotic asphyxia), and the remaining deaths were 27 suicides. Of those who committed suicide, most (59%) had chronic psychiatric illness rather than chronic debilitating or terminal physical illness. In contrast with reports from the United States, publicity associated with "self-deliverance" did not result in an increased number of deaths from plastic bag asphyxia (4 deaths in this series). Analysis of the circumstances of all the deaths revealed them to be difficult to predict and hence prevent.

http://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/entrez/query.fcgi?cmd=Retrieve&db=PubMed&list_uids=11111806&dopt=Abstract


Here's another site listing the number of plastic bag suicides in the U.S. by year:

http://www.suicidemethods.net/tables/bag-sui.htm

[merh]

50. The statistics are 11 years old - forsenic science has come a

long way in those 11 years and sadly enough, most folks don't investigate beyond suicide for folks with previous psychiatric illnesses. 17 of the 30 in those numbers provided involved conditions that rendered the "victim" unable to combat the bag, weakened the bodies natural instinct to survive.

And having worked in jails, I join with others to question how an inmate obtained a plastic bag.

One study does not support the conclusion that this was in fact a suicide. I would venture to guess that many of the 30 referenced in that study had secured the bag to their necks in an effort to prevent it's removal and/or had incapicitated themselves or restricted their hands so that the survival instincts of their bodies could not save them. The facts reported are lacking thus relying on the 11 year old numbers in this report to support the "suicide" would be foolish.

[MercutioATC]

52. I'm not supporting the idea it was a suicide...

...I'm contesting the idea that suicide by plastic bag is impossible.

[merh]

53. Suicide by plastic bag in this environment is impossible.

imho

[KittyWampus]

83. Don't Confuse These People With Medical Facts- Common Sense Knowledge

trumps that, don't you know.

[KittyWampus]

82. The "Natural Response". Oy, And You Researched This? How Do Kids Die

then? If it's the 'natural response' how do they end up suffocating?

[merh]

87. Never said I researched that and we are not talking about

children. Don't alter the discussion.

[pitohui]

60. merh, it happened to a friend of mine

i don't want to go into details abt how you do it, for obvious reasons, but it is considered an easy way to suicide

there was no doubt my friend committed suicide, she had been researching reincarnation, was in treatment for clinical depression, & had threatened suicide multiple times & was on medication

she killed herself in the bed of the kind lady who had given her a place to stay in her own home and was trying to get her further treatment

it was truly a sad story but no doubt it was suicide and not a murder

apparently when you run out of oxygen and panic, the bag is actually forced even closer to the lining of your nose and mouth by your gasps

supposedly not a bad way to go but i don't see how anyone can know that & it's a bit unfair to those who will find your body

it is definitely physically possible but i feel it's an act of hostility unless you have a terminal illness or other v. serious reason, the friend who offered this young woman a home was terribly hurt & traumatized to find her dead body

i don't need to preach at you, but for the sake of any lurker reading this who might be tempted, do NOT do this or play w. this unless you have DAMNED good reason

[merh]

61. You say your friend was taking medication.

Had she taken medication before she suicided? How was the bag affixed to her neck?

And of course, the obvious, she was in the free world with easy access to a plastic bag.

just saying, it isn't that easy in a jail.

Not saying it is impossible on the outside, saying the environs this fellow as contained in does not make it likely.

[pitohui]

62. yes, she had saved up her medication

she took her medication before she placed the bag over her head

it was not affixed to her neck any special way but there was no need, the important thing is to cover nose & mouth, a flimsy plastic bag cannot be easily pulled off the face of a gasping, panicking person and the person themselves is unlikely to be able to remove it without help

she'd tried before w. just the drugs but this didn't work, too easy to get it wrong w. drugs only, someone finds you too soon & calls the hospital, or you take too many drugs & paradoxically you throw up and again don't die, you know the drill

the plastic bag is pretty certain tho nothing is 100 percent i guess

i don't know enough abt the man in the news story to comment but based on this experience & some others w. breath that i don't want to go into, i do think it possible -- and much easier and faster and surer than using drugs alone would be

a bit queasy discussing this topic, don't want to give anyone ideas

[merh]

64. The medication made it possible, not need to attach the bag

she couldn't fight back - her instincts dulled by the medication.

[pitohui]

72. ok i'll accept that answer

i'm no expert, i just know that she and a couple other friends had no luck attempting suicide by drugs alone

i've been a little leary abt sleeping w. plastic bags in the room ever since to be honest, not like they can just jump on yr face & kill you but it makes you skittish

[merh]

74. I understand and I am sorry for your loss.

I had a friend take a gun to her head several years ago. It is something that plagues you for years, you find yourself wondering if you had failed them. Finally, you simply admit to yourself that you couldn't do anything to make a difference.

:hug:

[KittyWampus]

84. Mehr, give it up. Mercutio proved its medically possible and you are

desperately trying to prove otherwise with no actual FACTS to support your position.

You're assumptions that the other DU'ers dear friend who killed herself with a plastic bag took medication is just as valid as the assumption that the PRISONER ALSO GOT SOME MEDICATION TO DOPE HIMSELF>

Not that he'd need to according to Medical Science.

[Ladyhawk]

77. "i feel it's an act of hostility"

Having been at the point of suicide a few times in my life I'd like to say that most of the time suicide is not an act of hostility directed toward anyone. And having suffered both terrible physical and psychic pain, I know that psychic pain can be much worse. A person who is depressed enough to commit suicide can only think of one thing: ending the pain.

Try this: Go outside and smash your thumb with a hammer. Now as soon as the pain hits, try to think of others before you think of yourself. Can you do it? I'd say it's next to impossible.

Severe psychic pain is no different, except that maybe it's even worse. You know that the pain from the hammer blow will subside. Even if you've smashed bone and muscle, you can go to a doc and get the bones set, get pain medication. With psychic pain there is no timetable. In some cases it goes on and on and on and on and on and on for years and years and years and years and years. Even the bravest, most resilient soul would have trouble finding the strength to continue.

I've been on nearly every antidepressant you can name. Finally in desperation I tried shock treatments. Yes, shock treatments. They actually helped, but the side-effects were horrible. I had amnesia and didn't function normally for at least two months afterward.

Lately I've found some other things that help, but severe, treatment-resistant depression is bad news. It is so incredibly painful: more painful than four dry sockets following wisdom tooth surgery, more painful than complications from LASIK surgery, more painful that surgery on the spine. The reason? IT. NEVER. FUCKING. ENDS.

"i feel it's an act of hostility unless you have a terminal illness or other v. serious reason"

Severe clinical depression IS a very serious reason. You don't think most people kill themselves for kicks, do you? You don't think they're doing it just to hurt the person who is left behind, do you? You don't think they're doing it to shock the person who finds their body...do you?

Suicide is a serious matter. Even a person in the throes of severe, unrelenting, years-long depression know that it's for real and can't be undone. That's why many of them do it. They just can't stand another minute of the pain.

[slackmaster]

41. Penalty for arson conviction is up to 40 years here in California

Does anyone know what it is in AZ?

[MercutioATC]

51. Either 2.5 or 5 years, I believe.

Arizona arson statute:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/01703.htm

Arson of an occupied structure statute:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/01704.htm


Sentencing for first-time offenders:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/00701.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS


If he'd been convicted of a felony before, either 3-6 years or 6-18.5 years:

http://www.azleg.state.az.us/ars/13/00604.htm

[Nevernose]

69. The arson occurred in Oregon about ten years ago (n/t)

n/t

[IndianaGreen]

76. You must be speaking of Bush

the lunatic that firebombed Fallujah. When is he going to kill himself like Hitler did?

This story smacks of a torture that went wrong!

[meganmonkey]

32. Having known someone who 'committed suicide'

in a Texas prison after geting busted for pot, knowing full well that this kid would NOT have killed himself, I am suspicious of all prison suicides.

:shrug:

[JackieO]

40. Statement from friends of Bill Rodgers

We mourn the passing of our dear friend and community member, Bill Rodgers, who worked tirelessly for the causes of social justice and environmental sustainability. We ask that he be remembered as the gentle, kind, and compassionate person we all knew and loved here in Prescott. We remain committed to continuing the work of community building and ecological awareness, through the Catalyst Infoshop, as part of the legacy Bill helped to create. We wish our friend the peace and serenity that he strived so hard to create in this world. This is a great loss for our community. We love you, Bill.

[JackieO]

65. Supporters recall 'kind, wise' person

http://www.azdailysun.com/non_sec/nav_includes/story.cfm?storyID=121724

"We're pretty shocked right now," Launius said. "There are a lot of teary eyes in Prescott today, and I think a lot of people are just trying to come to terms with knowing they won't see their friend Bill anymore."

Rodgers was the best kind of friend, she said. He was always accessible to his friends and a good person to talk to.

"Bill was always willing to be that friend," she said. "He's always been an amazing confidant and someone you could talk to about situations that might be wearing on your hear, troubles in life."

She described him as a kind, wise person. His wisdom tended to remind people that they are strong and loved, and it is through the love of others where people find their strength.

"He had a good way of reminding people about what was important in life," Launius said.

"He was certainly one of the gentlest most caring people I've ever known."

[donkeyotay]

44. In 2001 when worries about our government's attitude toward civil rights

were first being discussed, we were told, "don't worry, we want these powers to use against terrists, not citizens." Very shortly thereafter, Asscroft defined citizens as eco-terrorists, and this became one of the major focuses. After all these years, they have 2 suspects to show for all their hard work, and 1 of them commits suicide.

Knowing what we now know about our government, how the ends justify the means, how the president is above the law, how the president DOES justify and order torture, how can we NOT wonder at the circumstance of this person's death? A person who will remain in the eyes of many an arsonist, a terrorist, an eco-wackjob, or however you want to characterize this person, but who is innocent until proven guilty, something no longer required of the government.

The questions are raised not because we're smoking too much tinfoil here at the DU, but because our government is so ethically malignant that they have no credibility, having been proven to be serial liars, and deserve no trust.

Along the same lines, when the congress sneaks in an amendment to McCain's touted anti-torture legislation leaving some 500 detainees at Guantanamo without legal protection, I presume it's because the government said, "Holy shit. 500 lawsuits?" and I presume than many if not most were tortured. Why else must our government continually hide from disclosure and legal process?

[pitohui]

54. that is a shame

the whole story sounds sad

why would anyone attack APHIS, if he was guilty of such a thing, why not let it go to trial and explain his actions, if he was innocent, again, better to fight a false accusation & help find the real criminal than just give up

i can almost see the ski resort nonsense even tho i'm opposed to that sort of thing but attacking APHIS just seems v. v. odd & counterproductive to protecting domestic & wild animals & plants

would like to learn more abt how such a thing would occur

[Endangered Specie]

57. I have absolutely no sympathy for him...

I despise people who commit arson, especially in the name of "environmentalism".

[NIGHT TRIPPER]

73. What makes you "DESPISE" a person ACCUSED? corporate media says bla bla bl

Like another poster said--You'd better hope they don't SWEEP for activists in your neighborhood--
might just pick YOU up because you associate with us "questionable" DU activists--
Might even write a news story implying your guilt-
Wise to learn all the facts before" despising "strangers...

Groups of people going around despising accused is just how those good 'ol Southern Lynchings happened !

isn't that rather "re- gressive"--going back to the ways of the early 1900's?
as opposed to PRO- gressive which suggests moving forward (DU is a "progressive" forum by the way)

[DiverDave]

63. This stinks

Where the hell did he get a bag?, Why would he kill himself?

Nope, things don't add up.

Oh, and nice touch Endangered Specie , saying you don't give a shit if he was dead.
I'm sure his family and friends appreciate that sort of remark.
I know I don't.

[flvegan]

66. Well, he did run a bookstore that supplied info to activists. That was

the reason they arrested him. He met with and knows several alleged ELF activists, but short of running a bookstore and finding timers and relightable birthday candles, it doesn't look like they had much on him. They did a sweep of activists, and he was one they picked up.

Those of you that are calling/convicting him of arson, better hope damn good and well that they don't sweep political activists in your area, lest others convict you without knowing many of the facts...

[Blue_Tires]

79. i'm not saying this isn't what really happened, but

i'm betting that there is a LOT more info on this story that hasn't been revealed

[KittyWampus]

85. It took me scrolling down to the end of this thread to finally find

someone who makes sense and points out we don't have a lot of info.