Castro's 'miracle' cures the poor of blindness

[Thom Little]

The rich tourists whose luxury yachts once crowded the idyllic Marina Hemingway complex on the outskirts of the Cuban capital are shocked to find all Havana's hotel rooms fully booked until mid-2006. More than a dozen hotels have been temporarily closed to tourists to make way for a different kind of visitor. Most of them arrive nearly blind; but all will be able to see perfectly before they leave.

A remarkable humanitarian programme is under way here, which aims to restore the sight of six million people through free eye surgery. Launched in July by the 79-year-old Cuban President, Fidel Castro, and Venezuela's Socialist leader, President Hugo Chavez, Operation Miracle has brought daily planeloads of the poor from across Latin America and the Caribbean to Havana for surgery. Cuba provides the medical skills, Venezuela the petro-dollars.

People suffering from cataracts and other eye conditions that can be quickly remedied are candidates.

Cuba's comprehensive, free healthcare system has a ratio of one doctor for every 170 Cubans, compared with 188 in the US and 250 in the UK.


http://news.independent.co.uk/world/americas/article333837.ece

[Warpy]

1. I wonder if they'd take me?

I am blind in one eye and the other is going fast.

The US offers no help at all to cure the blind within its borders. If you can't pay, you don't desrve to see.

[Voltaire99]

2. Worth investigating

You're right about the US--woe unto anyone without $$$ who needs something from our overpriced capitalist health care system.

[tsuki]

3. I don't think Castro would be your problem. Check about going

through Mexico or Venezuela. If you qualify, I am sure that they would take you.

[Mika]

9. Not a good idea.

The _Bush admin is now tracking Americans that travel to Cuba via 3rd countries and busting them afterwards with serious fines. Many get a letter from OFAC months later with a $50,000+ fine or go to court to fight it (not a good chance of winning).

[babylonsister]

14. Wow! This is the first time I've heard that! nt

[drm604]

24. I'd like to see that.

The Bush administration fighting a blind person in court simply because they wanted to be cured. I'd love to see them trying to spin that. :popcorn:

And if they did do it there would probably be more than 50,000 people who would be willing to chip in a buck or two toward the fine.

That said, there may be a better way to go about it. If I'm not mistaken, there's some kind of procedure for applying for a waiver to travel to Cuba. Maybe Warpy should find out how to do that and apply. If they deny you then tell us about it here and you'll likely end up getting lots of publicity which will, at a minimum, give the administration a black eye and, hopefully, will get them to change their mind.

[dutchdemocrat]

84. Someone with smarts

Should start a campaign on the net and send an American who needs eye surgery in order to challenge the absurdity that America is called the Land of the Free yet the vestiges of a Berlin Wall exist between Florida and Cuba.

Jail for simply going to another country is ridiculous. What... are they trying to hide from America that Cuba is actually not a bad place?

If anyone knows someone, I will help kick off a campaign - I have server space enough.

[drm604]

88. I like it.

All of this needs to be with Warpy's approval and cooperation of course. Imagine a campaign asking for donations for transportation and accommodations for Warpy, or even better, a whole group of people who need the surgery and don't have the coverage. Then the federal government steps in to block them. How could they possibly spin that as being the right and proper thing to do? These people must go blind for the sake of truth, justice, and the American way? It strikes me that they would have two politically viable options; allow them to go, or pay for their surgery here in the US. Either option would open up a Pandora's box that they don't want to open but letting them go would probably be the lesser evil in their eyes. Another possibility is that some charitable group, or maybe even Chavez, would pay for them to have surgery right here. But the end result would be that these people would get their needed surgery. Any political points scored would be completely secondary but welcome.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

99. PM Warpy.

[pokercat999]

141. "I'd like to see that" The problem is

the MSM would never cover it so the public never sees it.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

65. Nothing like good old travel controls, eh?

Quite possibly the most childish thing Bush has done with Americas-region foreign policy.

[Mika]

73. The travel controls have been in place long before Bush

Only Carter has announced plans to drop travel sanctions placed on Americans who wanted to travel to Cuba.. then came Mariel (when Miami's exiles went en mass to Mariel to pick up Cubans and return them to Miami in one of the largest illegal smuggling ops in US history).

Just a coincidence. Move along.

[Wabbajack]

83. Given the choice between being blind and owing

* 50 Grand I'd choose the latter in a microsecond.

[cannabis_flower]

103. Yeah but..

... they can't squeeze blood out of a turnip. If you don't have the money for the operation, where would you get a $50,000 fine? They may be able to get a judgment against you but they may not be able to collect it.

I'm not a lawyer but I suspect they can only really get the money from you in a couple of situations. They probably can't get it from your homestead (unless maybe if you sell it). They may only be able to get it when you die. Or they may take your income tax refund until it's paid off - if you get one.

Or maybe you could arrange to get the operation in Venezuela.

[pitohui]

128. go for it anyway

that is silly logic, if the poster loses her sight and is unable to work for the rest of her life, she'll be out way way WAY more than $50,000 in lifetime earnings

if i was at risk of losing my remaining sight, i don't care if castro himself operated on my eye to save it if it did the job

besides the admin is not as efficient as you think, i know people who have visited cuba, talked abt it openly, and never heard a murmur from the feds

if she gets her sight back, she can get a job, take out a loan, eventually pay any fine, not that she would be fined, the publicity for such a heartless act would be too much even for the likes of dick cheney

priorities

you said

The Bush admin is now tracking Americans that travel to Cuba via 3rd countries and busting them afterwards with serious fines. Many get a letter from OFAC months later with a $50,000+ fine or go to court to fight it (not a good chance of winning).

[wakeme2008]

5. I would google and check it out

I am sure Castro would treat poor Americans. Now getting there is another story.

[Mika]

6. Castro is a medical doctor now?

Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

[wakeme2008]

10. He holds the keys to the treatment

:)

[Mika]

11. How so?

As far as I know (and I know) it is the Cuban Ministry of Health that has offered these services and the Cuban National Assembly (the parliament) that has approved the Cuban portion of the funding for it, not Mr Castro.

[A Simple Game]

17. So are you telling me that Castro is not the

dictator that our government tells us he is?

Shame on you!

[Media_Lies_Daily]

28. No, shame on you for believing what our media's been telling us.

[malaise]

47. You are correct

but you do know that the MSM is incapable of acknowledging that a variety of people/agencies make decisions in Cuba.

Several people from the lovely free market territories in the Caribbean head to Cuba for a variety of medical treatments.

[Mika]

60. Just about the whole world's citizens visit Cuba, except US citizens..

.. who are banned from travel to Cuba by the dictate of the US government. Citizens from all over Europe, the Caribbean, South & Central Americas, Asia, South Asia, Canada, etc. go to Cuba for some of their treatments for eye diseases, various cancers, HIV/AIDS, radiation exposure, plus many more.

Only Americans are banned by their own gov from doing so.

[mike_c]

12. you might try contacting the Ministry of Foreign Affairs....

http://www.cubaminrex.cu/English/

[HysteryDiagnosis]

19. I know it's not free.... but there are other sources for materials

such as these.... there have been clinical trials done with severe degenerative eye conditions with just lutein alone... I can find out what the results were if interested.... 4


http://realhealthlabs.com/products/vision.html

ON EDIT:
http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00121589?order=30
Purpose

This study will explore whether taking the vitamins lutein and zeaxanthin, with or without Omega-3 fatty acid (fish oil or docosahexanoic acid, also known as DHA) will change the amount of lutein and zeaxanthin in the blood among people with age-related macular degeneration (AMD). AMD is one of the leading causes of legal blindness among people over the age of 50 in developed countries. In the disease, the retina of the eye, the sensory portion, worsens in condition. AMD causes progressive loss of central vision, with only peripheral vision remaining, that is, the ability for someone to see from the edges of the eye. To date, there is not any effective treatment to improve vision for most people whose AMD is advanced. Yet some data from research studies suggest a possible role of antioxidants, including lutein, in reducing the risk of AMD and cataracts. Lutein and zeaxanthin belong to the carotenoid family of vitamins, of which there are more than 600. There are 40 or 50 carotenoids in the typical diet of human beings, but only 14 major dietary ones are identified in human plasma. Lutein, in particular, is a vitamin that is found naturally in the retina, especially in the macula, the region of the eye that is essential for fine, detailed vision. Previous studies have shown that higher levels of foods rich in Omega-3 fatty acid were associated with a lower likelihood of AMD.


http://clinicaltrials.gov/ct/gui/show/NCT00060749?order=15
Purpose

This study will evaluate whether docosahexaenoic acid (DHA) dietary supplementation can improve macular function in patients with Stargardt macular dystrophy and Stargardt-like macular dystrophy. Stargardt macular dystrophy is a recessive inherited trait that causes a severe form of macular degeneration. (The macula is the center part of the retina in the back of the eye that is responsible for fine vision.) The disorder begins in late childhood and progresses to a significant decrease in central vision. One of the earliest signs of the disorder is accumulation in and under the macula of a fatty pigment called lipofuscin. Stargardt-like macular dystrophy is a dominant inherited trait involving loss of central vision, but it begins later than Stargardt macular dystrophy, and the accumulation of lipofuscin extends beyond the central region of the macula. DHA is a fatty acid that is essential for normal brain and eye development. It is normally found in the diet, but not in large amounts. Supplements may help prevent or slow the progression of some eye diseases.

[killbotfactory]

31. Chavez was talking about letting people in the US come down

It was supposed to be some "miracle" project. Write the Venezuelan embassy before Bush closes it.

1099 30th St., N.W.,
Washington D.C. 20007
USA

Office hours: 9:00 am -1:00 pm - 2:00 pm-5:00 pm Monday to Friday
Consular Services: 9:00 am- 1:00 pm Monday to Friday

Main #:[phone]
Fax #:[phone]

http://www.embavenez-us.org/

can't hurt, right?

[Massacure]

35. Even Cuba accepts you, what makes you think our government will let you?

[Spinzonner]

37. As soon as the govt lifts the economic embargo

US insurers will start outsourcing medical care to Cuba like they are doing to India for some expensive procedures.

[Hekate]

45. Ask around for US docs local to you who participate in SEE (read on)

This is totally off the top of my head, but my former optometrist participates in Surgical Eye Expeditions (SEE), which takes eye doctors to foreign lands to heal the blind. There just has to be some equivalent here in the US, and they might know of it.

What an embarrassing health care system we have. It's gotten so I wince every time some *hole like Bush boasts that we have the best system in the entire world. It's the best only if you have the money or a fabulous insurance plan, otherwise it sucks.

Maybe someone else here has a better idea.

Good luck and blessings to you. May your search be successful.

Hekate

[Catrina]

121. There is an organization here, 'Orbis'

which sends a plane around the world to third world countries to treat poor people with eye problems.

I'm not sure if they also treat Americans though. Most people ASSUME that in the richest country in the world, no one needs to get help with medical care.

Orbis

As a nonprofit organization, ORBIS exists to eliminate blindness and ... ORBIS Flying Eye Hospital programs save sight and transfer ophthalmic skills around ...

www.orbis.org/ -

I know they have an office in NYC and in other parts of the US also. It might be worth calling them ~

[LeighAnn]

97. Write to the Venezuelan Embassy

That's what I read a while back... Chavez made the offer to Americans for free eye surgery, said to contact the Venezuelan Embassy. Can't remember the source.

[ima_sinnic]

120. check with your state's Vocational Rehab

If you are employed, check with your state Vocational Rehab. Their mission is to keep employed people employed. They paid 100% for cataract surgery that I definitely needed to perform my job.

[babylonsister]

4. What a great opportunity for those afflicted, and

seems very kind of Castro and the doctors, hotels, etc., who are cooperating in the effort.
Too bad no one around here would get a clue that this is indeed possible.

[DELUSIONAL]

7. Everyone is the Caribbean knows about this!

Except for the dumb expats from the US who listen only to Fox news (sic) on the cable.

[cire4]

8. Wow.....definitely an "outpost of tyranny"

This reminds me of another similar policy:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1352096

A true act(s) of benevolence by a national government...Good for Cuba...

[Mika]

15. More from the "outpost of tyranny"

Recent threads on DU


-Cuba plans to produce 10 million doses of hemophilia flu vaccines annually-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1975918


-Cuba plays key role in Pakistan quake aid-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1986042


-Cuba pays tribute to John Lennon at a weekend ceremony in Havana-
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1984963


-Fidel Honors Terrorist Victims- (Victims of poppy Bush buddies Luis Posada and Orlando Bosch)
http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=103x178372



Cuba is an amazing place.

Its a damned shame that the US government dictates that Americans are travel banned from seeing it for themselves, despite the fact that Americans feel that US/Cuba policy should change.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

66. Indeed.

Its a damned shame that the US government dictates that Americans are travel banned from seeing it for themselves, despite the fact that Americans feel that US/Cuba policy should change.

I swear to God, with Castro and Bush it's like two children arguing over who gets the front seat in the car. The debate is at that level of sophistocation.

[Mika]

68. Except that it is the USA that prevents open travel, not Cuba

There have been dozens of threads here on DU about the _Bush administration denying visas to Cuban musicians, doctors, inventors, researchers, even baseball squads, etc etc who want to come to the US to lecture or attend lectures, or to attend summits, or to receive awards - all denied by the US government.

Cuba does no such thing.

Cubans and their government want normalization between the US and Cuba, and they have thrown their doors open to us, but, it is our US government that prevents what the majority of Americans want their government to do - normalize relations. Worse yet, the US government forbids and has criminalized travel to Cuba by Americans - something that Cuba hasn't done.

[roguevalley]

13. this is wonderful, no matter who provides it. Kudos, Cuba.

[bvar22]

16. But...but....but...This is GODDAMED SOCIALISM!!!!!

I'm OUTRAGED!!!!!
IMAGINE, using money from the Natural Resources of a country to:

Heal the Sick,

House the homeless,

Feed the Hungry,

Clothe the Naked,

Educate the ignorant......Who EVER heard of such a thing!!!?

That's a GODDAMD OUTRAGE.
Didn't these sick animals get the memo that Unrestrained Capitalism is the BEST system, and that Socialism doesn't work?




The Democratic Party is a BIG TENT, but there is NO ROOM for those
who advance the agenda of THE RICH (Corporate Owners) at the EXPENSE of LABOR and the POOR.

In EVERY case, "Barriers to Trade" and "Restrictions on Corporations" were created to protect something valuable!

[enigma000]

18. but...but...but....they told me Marx is God

Marx created the heavens and the earth. Castro died for our sins on the cross. He was resurrected after 3 days. Castro sits at the right hand of the Marx. If this isn't true, I am defiantly asking my alma matta for a refund + interest.

[bonito]

20. I bet they use ionic silver for infections n/t

[Clara T]

21. Shine the light n/t

[Poppyseedman]

22. I have never been a fan of Castro as he is a brutal dictator.

but if he is doing this for poor people from all over Latin America, it must mean he is preparing to meet his maker.

Good works are still good works for whatever reason he is doing them.

Maybe, he will be feeling generous to the thousands of political prisoners languishing in his hell holes for years and let the blind ones go too.

[WhiteTara]

23. I thought he had emptied those

hell holes and hospitals and sent them all to us. Remember that?

[Poppyseedman]

25. Yes, I remember when Castro dumped 3,500 of his drug addicts

and the insane into Miami during the Carter administration. The Mariel boat lift let 150,000 Cubans into this country.

He has had plenty of time to fill the empty prisons with his political opponents.

Don't get me wrong, If Castro is spending his money and resources to help the blind, more power to him.

Just let's not make him a saint.

[WhiteTara]

26. No, he is not a saint

but at least he isn't taking all the money and spending it on himself. And I'm sure he's had time to refill his prisons. I hear it is a lovely island.

[Media_Lies_Daily]

29. And we know Castro did this because our mainstream media told....

...us it was true.

Hmmmm.

Tell you what, when we can clean up our own illegal and immoral fascist government that has been responsible for tens of thousands of deaths of Americans and Middle Easterners, then feel free to take pot-shots at someone else's form of government.

[Poppyseedman]

33. The Marial Boatlift is well documented.

Sometimes facts are simply facts.

In 1973 Castro cut off the Freedom Flights begun by President Johnson. Between 1973 and 1980 there were few migrants making the journey between Cuba and the United States. On March 17, 1980 the Refugee Act of 1980 was signed into law. The goal of this legislation was to create an orderly process for determining refugee status and processing asylum applications. (5) It also explicitly limited the use of parole to refugees with compelling reasons and only on a case by case basis. (6)

It was at this moment in U.S. immigration history, on March 28, 1980, that a bus carrying Cuban citizens intentionally crashed into the gates of the Peruvian Embassy in Havana. The passengers claimed asylum. Soon 10,800 Cubans sought refuge at the Peruvian Embassy. President Carter announced that the U.S. would accept 3,500 if they were first processed in Costa Rica. Not to be outdone Castro took charge of the situation and announced that any Cuban who wanted to leave could do so by boat through Mariel harbor. President Carter proclaimed that the United States would welcome the Cubans with "an open heart and open arms." The result was the Marial Boatlift that eventually brought 150,000 Cubans to Florida.

Unfortunately, not all the migrants were admissible to the U.S. Some of the Marielitos had criminal records or mental problems. These migrants were detained indefinitely. Displeased by this policy migrants rioted at detention facilities at Elgin Air Force Base and Ft. Chafee in May and June 1980. Amidst the general confusion surrounding the massive influx of Cuban migrants, there was confusion surrounding what legal authority was controlling: The Refugee Act of 1980, or the Cuban Refugee Adjustment Act of 1966. In addition, a significant number of Haitians arrived at the same time as the Cubans.

BTW, I'd take pot shots at any government that oppresses their people at a point of a gun.

[Mika]

43. Castro didn't "dump" them on the US. Miami Cubans picked them up and..

.. brought them to the US in the single largest illegal immigration op.

Castro didn't do it.

Without the Miamicubanos none of the Mariel boatlift would have happened.

President Carter was threatened by prominant Cuban-Americans and Miami officials that Miami would be burned to the ground by protestors if he did not let them go to Mariel harbor. Almost evey boat that the hard line exiles could beg borrow or steal was used in this illegal operation.

Funny how your documentation fails to mention this.

[Judi Lynn]

44. What I've heard coincides with what you posted, Mika.

Those Miami extremist claims only work on people who have no idea what has happened. Those numbers will be declining steadily in the future.

The people in this country are finally starting to get the picture of what the Miami Cuban extremist lunatic/terrorist fringe is all about.

Elián Gonzalez drew our attention to Miami in a new way, when all we had heard about the place before that was that it was absolutely CORRUPT. Now we know it's corrupt, AND controlled by idiot extremists.

[Mika]

46. The US's Radio Marti told Cubans that the Peruvian embassy would ..

.. grant temporary visas to any and all who made it there, and then they would be granted immigration visas to the USA (where they would enjoy all of the perks that the Cuban Adjustment Act offers - instant work visas, instant green card qualification, instant social security, instant welfare, instant qualification for sec 8 housing, and more).

Of course no such thing had been arranged with Peru.

The US taxpayer funded Radio Marti tried this again a couple of years ago, but using the Mexican embassy as the foil.

Both incidents were sparked off by some renegade criminals who hijacked busses and rammed the gates of both embassies - injuring several at both times.

Mexico was hip to this US folly and had the miscreants removed immediately. It started a serious diplomatic fight between the Mexico and the US.

Violently crashing hijacked busses at high speed through embassy gates that injures people on the ground and non involved passengers on the bus is nothing to be sympathetic about, and is in no way a legitimate method of gaining entry into another country imo. Especially considerong that the USA offers Cubans over 20,000 legal immigration visas every year (that not all are applied for).

But, as I have said.. Castro didn't dump Marieletos in Miami by parachute or ship, the Miamicubano community went to Cuba illegally, picked them up and returned them to Miami.


I live in Miami (and had been back and forth to Cuba several times around that period of time) and remember this incident clearly.

[nodehopper]

53. what does our gov't atrocities have to do with Castro's atrocities?

The fact that US engages in them does not mean Cuba does not. That's a logical fallacy.

And in lieu of US media I suggest you read some of Reinaldo Arenas' books. He was a dissident gay writer who wrote about repression in Cuba. The movie "Before Night Falls" is based on his autobiography. His "Pentagonia: The secret history of Cuba" book cycle is amazing. Read "The Assault," it will give "1984" a run for its dystopia.

[manic expression]

74. First off,

Castro does not equal Cuba.

Secondly, what atrocities in Cuba do you speak of?

Next, it is the epitome of hypocrisy for the melting pot to call anything black, especially when Cuba is made of stainless steel (paraphrased from Sage Francis).

[nodehopper]

76. uh...

first of all, people on this thread were arguing about whether Castro is Good Leader or Bad Leader. The dispute here wasn't Cuba as a culture or a nation, but as a political government headed by Castro for many decades now.

I am speaking of long-standing and documented human rights violations in Cuba, including camapigns of repression against and improsonment of dissidents and targeted groups like homosexuals (among others). Cuba is a socialist dictatorship, in the tradition of Soviet Union, using the same model of silencing dissent.

And I am going to tell you why that whole "calling the cattle black" pisses me off so much when it pops up on Democratic Underground. That is a valid thing to point out to people who are convinced that America is Awesome and Cuba is Bad, and if only they would see the light of capitalism, everything would be great, in a kind of atavistic Red-Scare sort of mentality.

Presumably, people are here at Democratic Underground because they ARE critical of the US government and its unfair and unjust policies. I think we mostly all agree on that. Which makes the whole argument of "well, it's hypocritical to point out flaws in Cuba as long as US is committing atrocities" completely nonsensical when applied to people who first and foremost acknowledge and protest the fact that US is committing atrocities too. What is hypocritical about that? We are all here because we do not complacent members of the pot. We are here because, hopefully, among other things, we agree that human rights abuse is unacceptable, whether it is being perpetrated in the name of "American Freedom" or "bright socialist future."

[Mika]

77. Umm, this thread was supposed to be about Cuba's helping the blind.

The thread was derailed by Castrophobes who claim that Castro is all things Cuban, who claim that the primary focus on Cuba should be about Castro this and Castro that, no matter what the original post was about.

You are doing it also.

Others defend Cuba's right to manage its own affairs while at the same time not defending Mr Castro. That defense of Cuba (not Castro) includes noting Cuba's caring Ministry of Health and the doctors and nurses and technicians etc who do the great humanitarian things that they do - like the aims to restore the sight of six million people through free eye surgery.

Mr Castro doesn't perform eye surgery, and only a fool would suggest that health care providers are somehow forced to care for the health needs of the poor and under served.


I say VIVA Cuba's health care providers who care enough to not only create one of the most complete national health care systems in the world, but to also care for those in need of such care where ever they can. Castro doesn't do this. All Cubans do.



Viva Cuba!

[manic expression]

78. uh...indeed

The political government is composed of more than Fidel Castro. Namely, the Cuban Assembly, which holds and practices most (if not almost all) of the power in Cuba:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

I would like to see what "repression" you speak of, because dissent is very much legal in Cuba. Dissidents have held rallies in Cuba recently without any intervention from the government. If you are talking about anti-homosexual policies, that is a product more of the homophobic culture of Latin America than anything else.

You would not agree that people from one country condemning another country for (fabricated) human rights violations, while their own country is involved in FAR more atrocious activities is a bit ridiculous? People need to recognize that Cuba suppresses dissent no more than the US does (arguably less), and if they are blind to this, that is pathetic and sad and I will point that out to them constantly.

[nodehopper]

79. this thread was about castro and chavez helping the blind

as usual, though, that produced "see, castro is good! anything else is US propaganda" threads.

I honestly cannot believe that you think that Cuba is an open society where dissent is permitted. Do you also think that Soviet Union did not silence dissent, or that Mugabe is a great and just visionary who is redistributing wealth and building a great new world?

But, whatever, read up on some of the things Human Rights Watch has to say about Cuba
http://hrw.org/english/docs/2005/03/10/cuba10306.htm

there is lots more, too, you just have to do some research.

I am sorry, but Cuba does suppress dissent more than US. In the US the worst that might happen to you at a political demonstration is an arrest and a court appearance a month later. That is not the same as being incarcerated for decades. Does Human Rights Watch fabricate? Does Amnesty International? Is every human rights group and NGO in the world in on a large conspiracy to smear Castro? Is it headed by people like Reinaldo Arenas who wrote about their experience in Cuba and escape from there?

Also what are you talking aboutl, anti-homosexual policies are a product of the homophonic culture of Latin America? Why does that make it ok? Also, I don't know of any other Latin American countries where political participation is officially (as in, sanctioned by Castro and his government) denied to someone on the grounds of their sexual preference. Homosexulity is something people in Cuba went to prison for, and you are saying "that's just culture" to excuse this human rights violation?

Also I don't see why my American passport should stop me from condemning Cuban human rights abuses if I condemn the same thing in the US.

[Judi Lynn]

80. You're speaking to quite a few DU'ers who have BEEN to Cuba.

MULTIPLE TIMES. You're not going to make any converts among them.

[nodehopper]

85. ok, whatever, Cuba is a socialist paradise that does not

practice Potemkin Villages. I have not been to Cuba, but I grew up in the USSR that had the same PR model for handling foreign tourism, and I have compared notes on that with friends who grew up in Cuba, not just went there for a visit.

[manic expression]

86. Please

Many people here have gone to Cuba. What, exactly, are you asserting? That they were shown the "nice" Cuba? The fact is that standard of living is extremely good in Cuba (that is an understatement), and Cubans are not afraid to speak their mind at all (I've heard this from people that have been there).

So what are you trying to say?

[nodehopper]

91. have you gone to Cuba?

because if you have not, you are contrasting words of people who visited Cuba with the words of people who grew up there and immigrated. And yes, I think that people often are shown the nice Cuba. "Been there" does not equal "lived there" or had family members imprisoned for disagreeing with the governments.

[manic expression]

93. Have you?

Where does that game get us? Nowhere.

However, I have spoken with many people that HAVE been there, and they have told me that Cubans are not afraid to speak their minds at all. Furthermore, there are many DUers that have been to Cuba that agree with my side of the argument.

What are you talking about? What would "nice" Cuba entail? The simple fact that there is unequaled equity there proves your assertion wrong. Another thing is that, using this logic, no one can say anything good about European countries or perhaps even Canada, since they have not "lived there". To try to nullify someone's opinion, which is backed up with articles and facts, simply because they have not been there, is ridiculous and ineffective, especially when you fall under that exact same catagory.

Moreover, you have no idea WHY those people were imprisoned. There is nothing wrong with dissent in Cuba, but there is something definitely wrong with receiving US support and funds. This has been well-documented (DUers have posted such evidence in length). Those "dissidents" were employees of the US government to destabilize Cuba, and that is not only a crime (in MANY countries, virtually all as a matter of fact) but it is in opposition to Cuba's achievements.

[nodehopper]

95. try looking at Human Rights Watch records on Cuba

And I made it clear that I have not been there, but have friends who grew up there, rather than just went and visited (I have those friends too, and their accounts differ from the accounts of people who spent a large portion of their adult life there, and went through the schooling and employment systems there).

[manic expression]

109. I have done so

However, HRW does not take into account the fact that those "dissidents" took funds and support from the US, which is both illegal and against Cuba's progress. To arrest individuals who engage in such activity is not wrong at all, and it is not suppression of freedom whatsoever. It was more than reasonable for Cuba to do what it did.

I have not been there either, but I have talked to people who have been there and have seen the country and spoken with the people who live there. If anything, this cancels both our personal contacts, and we are left with the facts. What conclusion does that give you?

[nodehopper]

111. those "dissidents" took funds and support from the US?

and that doesn't strike you as possibly, just possibly, Cuban propaganda?

Or do you mean people whose relatives immigrated and in the later years sent money back to support their families who were living in poverty? I suppose that deserves imprisonment? If getting financial aid and presents from your family is against a country's progress AND punishable by imprisonment, that doesn't strike you as...problematic?

I don't know what you have been reading, but I really strongly suggest that you read "Before Night Fall" by R. Arenas. Among other things it is an incredible, beautifully-written book. And it has a lot of interesting things to say about Cuba and the daily life in Cuba, I would think as someone seemingly interested in Cuba you would find it at least interesting.
http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/0140157654/qid=1135182919/sr=8-10/ref=sr_8_xs_ap_i1_xgl14/104-4318404-8844756?n=507846&s=books&v=glance

[Mika]

113. So where does all of the US congressional allocations that support..

.. Cuban "dissidents" go?

It would serve you to learn a little about US/Cuba issues before you start babbling conjecture that is totally non fact based.

Are the various US "support of Cuban dissidents" bills and presidential initiatives that funnel millions of US taxpayer money to Cuban "dissidents" Cuban propaganda?


Bill Gives $100 Million to Castro Foes

U.S. support for Cuban dissidents ill advised

the bill would mandate Congress to send $100 million to Cuba over the next four years, primarily to aid opponents of Fidel Castro.

Bush Administration Tightens Embargo on Cuba

The Commission calls for a $29-million increase in support for Cuban dissidents and anti-Castro NGOs in the United States and other countries. Many dissidents, however, are critical of this new policy. The wife of a prominent dissident criticized it recently in an article at salon.com: "Did the Bush administration ask for the opinion of internal dissidents when the Commission for Assistance to a Free Cuba crafted it report? No.

[Judi Lynn]

115. God, I remember the Helms-Lieberman bill, Mika! What a monstrosity!

From your first link:

"I am sort of stunned by the magnitude of this," said Wayne Smith of the Center for International Policy, a leading advocate of lifting the 38-year-old U.S. economic embargo against Cuba.

"A hundred million dollars to go to opposition groups in Cuba. I'd hate to be a dissident in Cuba with that kind of help from Washington."
(snip)

Very conspicuous bribery, isn't it? That should earn them a lot of admirers!Just a few wealthy traitors surrounded by a host of people struggling to create a new society together which benefits EVERYONE, not just the hogs.

The Helms-Lieberman legislation would authorize funding for almost any activity in Cuba not linked to the Cuban government, including libraries, small businesses and agricultural cooperatives, even privately run senior citizen centers and soup kitchens.
(snip/...)

Jesse Helms, Joe Lieberman. What a pair of colossal asses.

[Mika]

116. But Bush policy supporters say that this is all Castro propaganda

All that is needed is some basic Google skills to uncover some information about the US funding of so called "dissidents" in Cuba - to the tune of millions of $$ - that essentially violates the US's own Neutrality Act. Sadly, the Cubaphobes/Bush policy supporters find even that to be too strenuous an undertaking.. the 'Castro this and Castro that' is just all too easy, and a really really really sound argument.

BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS BREAKING GUSANO NEWS
Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that
this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that Castro did this Castro did that

[nodehopper]

119. I was talking about

people who were persecuted or jailed for contact with their relatives who immigrated to the United States.

What is the left's obsession with people like Castro and Mugabe? There are plenty of worthwhile socialist role models to admire, who did, or tried to do amazing things for their people, like Salvador Allende or even Chavez, however problematic some of his policies may be. But for some reason when it comes to people like Castro and, among some factions of the left--Mao--people are totally willing to dismiss documented claims of human rights violations as "US propaganda."

You know what? The fifties in the US were all about anti-Soviet propaganda, which was, of course, all about the US insecurities and the capitalist myth. But the content of that propaganda was by and large true--the Soviet system WAS a closed society where dissident thought was harshly punished. Similarly, countries like USSR in the past and even North Korea in the present feed a steady diet of anti-US propaganda to their people. As all propaganda, it is designed to create a binary that would obfuscate the problems at home, but again, the content of the propaganda? Is totally true. US IS a racist society that doesn't care about its poor, the US does have imperial aspirations and thinks it's above the law.

When looking at propaganda, of course it is useful to look at WHY it's being produced and circulated...but the content of the propaganda is a lot of the time based on things that are true (obviously things like eugenics notwithstanding).

[Mika]

123. You're the one with the obsession with Castro

Speaking of propaganda - Its all about Castro to the Cubaphobes and Bush policy supporters. How conveeeenient to just ignore the workings of the Cuban government and all of the people in Cuba (that is, the 99.999999% of the Cuban people not on the US payroll). It takes a really skewed view of Cuba to attribute Cuba's social infrastructure that ranks among the highest quality in the world to Castro or his 'brutality'.

Look at the direction that the Cubaphobes/Bush policy supporters pushed this thread -nothing but 'Castro this and Castro that' from them, all things Cuban = Castro. Meanwhile the pro Cuba folks here have been talking mostly about the progress and advances and compassion that the Cuban people have accomplished and evidenced - from the Cuban Drs, nurses, technicians, teachers, researchers, outreach groups, etc etc.. to almost each and every man and woman in Cuba.


Castro doesn't do the "Castro's 'miracle' cures the poor of blindness" simply because the MSM chooses to skew the reality of the matter in their headline. All Cubans do it.. in concert with their government, not at odds with it.



AND, I see no mention of Mugabe anywhere in this thread and other Cuba threads except by you and some other Castrophobes/Cubaphobes.

[nodehopper]

118. I am well-educated about Cuba

I think US policy on Cuba is ridiculous and self-serving and, above all, hypocritical, because Cuba's human rights violations are on par with many countries that US is happy to do business with.

At the same time Castro is a dictator and human rights abuses under his government have been documented by sources other than the corporate media/propaganda within the US.

I don't understand why people thing that the two are somehow mutually exclusive

[manic expression]

124. First of all

I would like you to give some examples of instances of these "human rights abuses under his government". Because virtually every single instance where Cuba arrests a "dissident" is perfectly reasonable and justified, as the "dissidents" had been receiving US support and funds (US officials openly admit this). As you were so kind to point out in your post, US policy on Cuba is very much "ridiculous and self-serving", and Cuba has a right to protect themselves from the worst of that: foreign intervention.

Would you agree?

[Judi Lynn]

125. It's simply illegal here, isn't it? Absolutely.

No country in the world tolerates or labels domestic citizens paid by and
working for a foreign power to act for its imperial interests as
''dissidents''. This is especially true of the U.S. where Title 18,
Section 951 of the U.S. Code, ''anyone who agrees to operate within the
United States subject to the direction or control of a foreign government or
official would be subjected to criminal prosecution and a 10 - year prison
sentence''.

http://www.blackpoolandfyldecsc.org.uk/archive/ar196.html

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

Another article on James Cason, the _Bush-appointed Interests Section Head who just left Havana, who hosted his cluster of "dissidents" at the Interests Section offices 24/7, and at his home:

Cason seems neither to learn from his false predictions nor forget his passionate rhetoric. Apparently oblivious to flagrant human rights abuses committed by US personnel at the Guantanamo Gulag, Cason used International Human Rights Day to throw a bash at his posh Havana residence, where Senator Jack Kennedy once cavorted. Cuban dissidents drank and mingled with the Havana press corps, when Cason announced, according to the Associated Press, that Castro's government "is on its last legs."

Some imbibers spilled their rum over this remark. Oswaldo Paya, leader of the Varella Project, which collected 10 thousand plus signatures on a "pro-democracy" petition, offered a prayer: "Would God grant that our children and the Cuban people do not inherit our hates and miseries but rather our faith so that they can construct their own history.'"

Cason apparently thought that Paya's reference to Divine intervention validated his own fact free conclusion: "Even regime supporters are discreetly preparing for the inevitable democratic transition." He neither named "regime supporters" nor acknowledged that state security agents had penetrated the US-backed dissident movement. Indeed, a dozen infiltrators surfaced at the March 2003 trial to testify against 75 of those most favored by the US government which, contrary to Cuban law, paid them in goods and services.

In recent weeks however, to repair relations with the EU countries, which had criticized the trials, Cuba released several dissidents. In fact, the United States holds more political prisoners than Cuba at Guantanamo; and in sub-human conditions.

Political prisoners obfuscate the essence of Cuba's relations with the United States. Castro's main opponents live in south Florida and have little interest in democracy, unless democracy means terrorism. Indeed, in May the US government permitted indicted terrorists Guillermo Novo, Gaspar Jimenez and Pedro Remon to dance smilingly into Miami's international airport after Panama's outgoing President pardoned them ­ apparently as the result of bribes. Each of the three participated in assassinations and other terrorist activities.
(snip/...)

http://www.counterpunch.org/landau12272004.html

[Mika]

126. If you don't agree w/it, then why are you defending it?

nodehopper, you've been defending so called "dissidents" who have been violating Cuba's national security laws by ading and abeting the declared enemy of Cuba (the US gov, currently being run by W Bush).

In post 111 you say that the arrests of the "dissidents" for being on the US payroll is propaganda.

Then I produce links in post http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1993431&mesg_id=2001268">113 that detail US funding of the "dissident" movements & personel in Cuba.


Still, you defend them. Essentially that means that you support, to some degree, the US government's plans (using paid fake "dissidents" to aid and abet these plans: AKA treasonous activities) to overthrow the sovereign government of Cuba that hasn't committed any crime against America. Still, you defend them.

[nodehopper]

127. I was talking about people

who are persecuted for being in touch with and receiving financial assistance from their relatives in the US. Not "fake" relatives, not US financiers but, you know, children, grandchildren, etc.

The same thing happened in Soviet Russia, where people whose relatives went abroad lost their jobs, homes or were prosected for $ they received from their family memebrs under the same articles of being subversive elements, counterrevolutionary agenda blah blah blah.

Was there actual funding of dissidents? I am sure.

Were thousands persecuted because their "treacherous" relatives tried to help them out? Yes.

Do I support immigrant families being able to financially support their relatives left in a country with deficits? Absolutely.

[Mika]

129. Family remittances are completely legal and wanted.

No one in Cuba is persecuted for receiving family financial assistance in Cuba from relative outside of Cuba. You are just making shit up!

It was the Bush admin that recently reduced the amount of money that relatives in the US could send to Cubans, as well as reduced the legality of trips that Cuban immigrants (with direct relatives only) can take back to Cuba to once every 3 years instead on the annual trips they used to take.

At the same time congress and the Bush admin has increased the funding of "dissident" groups in Cuba -that the real Cuban domestic opposition parties decry.

This is further evidence that the US government's mission isn't intended to help all Cubans, but only a select few Cubans - those who aid and abet the declared enemy of Cuba.


Its interesting that you never seem to address the fact that Cuba has a right to defend itself from the avowed enemy and those who illegally aid and abet said enemy (the US gov). Instead, you just make shit up with endless target shifting and false scenarios. You don't know much about the current Cuba and your posts bear that out. When your falsehoods are disproved you simply make up more shit and false scenarios in endless attempts at target shifting. This isn't a method of genuine debate, it just obvious 'moving the goal post' distraction. All in all, you never seem to address the fact that Cuba has a right to defend itself from the avowed enemy and those who illegally aid and abet said enemy (the US gov), but you have constantly defended the Cubans who commit treason by aiding and abetting the enemy of their country. By doing so you are, to some degree, supporting the Bush agenda to overthrow the sovereign government of Cuba in order to place Cuba under US aegis once again. Cubans rejected that in the late 1950's and they still do.

[Judi Lynn]

130. You nailed it.Very shifty, cheesy, un-straightforward way of doing bidness

Nothing to be proud, for sure!

Making professional employees of "dissidents" gives them a material advantage over their compatriots who actually have to get out and work for a living. These people are short-sided in looking out for their own selfish interests, while back-stabbing the very society which has made life bearable for great numbers of people previously marginalized, who were forced to live on seasonal employment in the sugar cane fields, etc., and live in squalid, primitive quarters, living from hand to mouth, with absolutely NO future, no education, no access to medical treatment whatsoever.

They are well-compensated for their efforts, too:

The cash payments comprise only a small part of President Bush's intensified campaign to squeeze the Castro regime through the tightening of trade sanctions and increased material support for opposition activists. Yet even some supporters of Bush's approach say that providing cash to dissidents gives ammunition to Cuban officials who denounce the opposition as "mercenaries" for the U.S.

Critics believe the payments also endanger the dissidents, who face up to 20 years in prison if they participate in any U.S. government-funded program.

"Providing funding to dissidents at a time when the U.S. government says that its objective is to bring down the Cuban government is to turn the dissidents into subversive agents," said Wayne Smith, a former U.S. diplomat in Cuba. "It's a colossal mistake."
(snip)

http://www.americas.org/item_18076

[Judi Lynn]

135. Reiterating the paid dissident budget from last year. Lotsa taxpayer cash.

OVERT US GOVERNMENT FUNDING, 2004 For Cuban dissidents

Source: Ana Radelat, "USAID funding for anti-Castro groups tops $34 million, "
CubaNews (Maryland),
November 2004, p. 9

http://www.walterlippmann.com/docs051.html

(1) Center for a Free Cuba $5,049,709

(2) Grupo de Apoyo a la Disidencia $4,650,000

(3) Cuba On-Line $4,240,000

(4) Int'l Republican Institute $2,773,825

(5) Freedom House $2,100,000

(6) UM: Cuba Transition Project $2,045,000

(7) CubaNet $1,333,000

(8) FIU Journalism Program $1,164,000

(9) Pan-American Dev. Foundation $1,520,700

(10) Acción Democratica Cubana $1,020,000

(11) Loyola Univ: NGO Development $424,771

(12) Georgetown Univ. Scholarships $400,000

(13) Plantados: Support for Prisoners $400,000

(14) Mississippi Consortium Int'l Dev $399,952

(15) Latin American Mission: Dry Milk $392,976

(16) Carta de $Cuba 289,600

Completed projects 5,806,570
TOTAL: $34,010,103

Mon January 10, 2005 | Posted By: Dana Garrett

http://havanajournal.com/politics_comments/A2850_0_5_0_M/

[nodehopper]

133. I am not "making shit up"

that is rude and a personal attack and I am flagging your post.

I draw on sources such as HRW and first-person accounts, but if you think people who don't share your POV "make shit up" there is no point in trying to argue/share information.

[Mika]

136. Making stuff up isn't sharing info.

Even the Cuban government decried the Bush cutback of family remittances.

You have never addressed the point that Cuba has a right to defend itself from the declared enemy of the nation, and has a right (if not a duty) to arrest those who commit treason by aiding and abetting the enemy that has a long record of documented invasion, terror attacks, funding of terror ops against Cuba, Cubans and Cuban interests. Some of these US fundede fake "dissidents" have direct connections to Miamicubano terrorist groups that also have a long record of terror activity against Cuba.

You only seem to want to defend such treasonous activity, and accuse Castro (castro this and castro that) of brutality when the Cuban government cracks down on those who aid and abet the enemy of Cuba.

[Judi Lynn]

134. Your observations were absolutely accurate.

I'd like to repeat your remarks, as they are surely appropriate:

Family remittances are completely legal and wanted. No one in Cuba is persecuted for receiving family financial assistance in Cuba from relative outside of Cuba. You are just making shit up!

It was the Bush admin that recently reduced the amount of money that relatives in the US could send to Cubans, as well as reduced the legality of trips that Cuban immigrants (with direct relatives only) can take back to Cuba to once every 3 years instead on the annual trips they used to take.

At the same time congress and the Bush admin has increased the funding of "dissident" groups in Cuba -that the real Cuban domestic opposition parties decry.

This is further evidence that the US government's mission isn't intended to help all Cubans, but only a select few Cubans - those who aid and abet the declared enemy of Cuba.

Its interesting that you never seem to address the fact that Cuba has a right to defend itself from the avowed enemy and those who illegally aid and abet said enemy (the US gov). Instead, you just make shit up with endless target shifting and false scenarios. You don't know much about the current Cuba and your posts bear that out. When your falsehoods are disproved you simply make up more shit and false scenarios in endless attempts at target shifting. This isn't a method of genuine debate, it just obvious 'moving the goal post' distraction. All in all, you never seem to address the fact that Cuba has a right to defend itself from the avowed enemy and those who illegally aid and abet said enemy (the US gov), but you have constantly defended the Cubans who commit treason by aiding and abetting the enemy of their country. By doing so you are, to some degree, supporting the Bush agenda to overthrow the sovereign government of Cuba in order to place Cuba under US aegis once again. Cubans rejected that in the late 1950's and they still do.
(snip/)

It always needs to be illuminated when it happens. Thanks.

[Name removed]

87. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[nodehopper]

92. first of all

"shove it where the sun don't shine" is impolite and a personal attack and I am going to flag your comment.

However, first, to reply to your post in a POLITE manner, here is a link to a "Castro is good" comment, complete with the fatuous sort of logic that often accompanies such assertions (OMG if no one has assasinated him, he must be good...let's see...hmm....how is this faulty logic?)

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=102&topic_id=1993431&mesg_id=1993683

[Mika]

100. I see no DU post that says "Castro is good"

The link you posted merely suggests that the MSM has been distorting the truth about Cuba. Its pure distortion to say that the post you linked to says anything like "Castro is good".

Please post a link that supports your assertion that there are posts by DUers who defend Cuba's right to sovereignty and fair treatment that say "Castro is good".


Obviously, you seem to think that all things Cuban equals Castro. That means, considering Cuba's good social infrastructure stats, that it is you who thinks that Castro is good.


-


Also, I find it interesting that you respond to my post (that you distort) that you then report to the mods to get removed.. leaving only your distortion of my post.

[Bridget Burke]

89. The powerful Cuban "exiles" have nothing but contempt for the Mariel....

Immigrants. Some of them were definitely poorer & darker of skin than the rich fled who earlier. But those who have power in Miami (& in the Congress, as they fight to preserve our ban on Cuban travel) consider them ALL criminals & insane.

Just how many thousands of political prisoners now languish in Castro's prisons/

[Media_Lies_Daily]

27. "Brutal dictator"?? No, sorry....that was Batista, the guy Castro.....

...overthrew, and ran out of Cuba.

For a guy that is supposedly a "brutal dictator", doesn't it amaze you that he's survived as long as he has? How come we don't hear much from his own people about how "brutal" he is?

Ever stop to think that the same U. S. mainstream media that's been lying to us for the last several decades was lying to us about Castro, too?

Who has the most to gain if Castro is driven out of Cuba? Think about that for a while.

[Poppyseedman]

30. Please, you can stop the propaganda. I used to live in Miami.

I heard it from the horses mouth directly. I had several friends who I worked with that left Cuba in a raft and came to this country. It's called first hand experience.

...and no, it doesn't amaze me that Castro has survived as long as he does.

How many Cubans own a firearm? Do you need to borrow a clue?

...and for Batista, he got his just deserts. Castro may have had good intentions, but you know the saying: The road to hell is paved with...................

[killbotfactory]

32. Are Cuban defectors as reliable as Iraqi defectors?

just askin'...

[Poppyseedman]

34. Since I personally know these Cuban defectors and their families

I'd take there word that Castro was and still is a brutal dictator.

As for Iraqi defectors. Is there any question as to what type of man Saddam was???

[manic expression]

39. And

the people that I have talked with that have been to Cuba are completely wrong now? I've heard from many a person that Cubans are not afraid to speak their mind.

Sorry to tell you this, but those people you cite are incorrect. Could you give me an example of such brutal dictatorial rule?

on edit, here are some examples of such terrible oppression:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4567393.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3702431.stm

As for Iraqi defectors, many of them told us Saddam had WMD's. I don't need to tell you how that ended up.

[killbotfactory]

50. Defectors are notoriously unreliable

Because they have an axe to grind.

Some of the hard-core anti-Castro cubans have been involved in terrorist campaigns against Cuba, sponsored by our own government. Bay of Pigs, using unmarked aircraft to bomb fields, importing diseases to infect their livestock, bombing resorts and airliners full of people, numerous assassination attempts. I wouldn't look to any community where people who support such things are allowed to thrive for accurate information.

[Joe Chi Minh]

56. Is it possible that you are particularly gullible, because they

told you what you wanted to hear? Brutal subversives are serious criminals and need custodial sentences - if not a firing squad. And their sympathizers may not be any great shakes, if it comes to that.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

64. A firing squad, eh?

How truly progressive of you.

:eyes:

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. You got it. I don't swallow all the liberal bullsh*t on here. I come

here for DU's mainstream, Gospel Democrat decency. Tolerance is the secular atheists' watchword; no such thing as good or evil. Well, that leads to moral anarchy; as many notions of morality as there are individuals. They'd probably like to believe in Heaven, but Hell's a terrible no-no. And why wouldn't it be for a moral relativist? Tolerance is all, as far as they are concerned; the sovereign and catch-all virtue.

However, the Good Thief, (evidently under divine inspiration, or there would have been no point in the appearance of the passage in the Gospel accounts; indeed, quite the contrary) said to Barabbas, "We at least are dying for our sins..." (a death-bed testimony, incidentally). And this notion of expiation By Christ for the sins we should pay for, is absolutely central to the teachings of the Gospels and to Christian tradition. Indeed, our very separation from our mortal bodies at the end of our life here ensues from the original sin of our first parents. Hell must be the ultimate execution, yet consignment there is at the personal option of the children of darkness, not of God.

There are over-arching paradoxes involved, however - it has to be admitted - since God created everything, evidently including Hell, and there is also the paradox of free will and divine predestination. Balanced against that, in the Old Testament, God asks evidently querulous questioners (presumably budding atheist secularists), "If a bad man renounces his bad behaviour, to lead a virtuous life, why should he not be rewarded for the virtuous life he enters upon? And, likewise, if good man turns to evil, why should he not be punished for the evil he turns to?

The most vicious sychopathic killers who kill the innocent and defenceless for kicks are routinely released from prisons early in the UK (sometimes even on bail), to save money, and not uncommonly kill again within days, if not hours; while far more harmless people are imprisoned for no good reason. Why should good people die a slow death on the streets from oppressive poverty, while the government spends £25,000 a year on such individuals - who sometimes even mock the victim's family from their cell. There are some vicious crimes for which a life in prison would suffice, but there are others, such as the Moors Murderers (who refuse to tell the parents of their child victims where they were buried), I think execution by injection would not be appropriate. And I'm not apologising for it or embarrassed at your puerile attempt to discomfit me by what you evidently imagine is knockout sarcasm.

Of course, there is the question of the incompetence of human judgement, and in America, evidently, routine judicial murder (apparently, endemically Republican). Nor will the people involved in it escape God's wrath; high-ranking officials who refuse to view crucial evidence, e.g. such DNA traces later found, which would exculpate people on death row. Mostly black, African Americans, apparently and, in effect, rail-roaded from arrest to execution.

You people need to understand that "gentle Jesus meek and mild" isn't the whole story. The Christian life is an epic one, and it's not for the faint-hearted, for cheap nickel-and-dime time-servers. It's not about the World's version of respectability, but God's -which is nothing like the same.

[manic expression]

40. Ah, yes

the Cuban community in Miami! Known world-wide for their delusion. Do you think you are getting anything close to the truth from them? Please.... The funny thing is that the Cuban community there is way more suppressive of alternative views than Cuba (they recently shut down a showing of "Motorcycle Diaries" because it simply had Che Guevera in it...at around 20 years old).

It's not first-hand experience. You got it from someone else, and that is different. Furthermore, you got quite a warped view of reality.

The fact that there are (relatively) so few Cubans attempting to get here by raft is quite telling. Even with guaranteed amnesty for any Cuban that reaches US shores, few actually try to get there. Also, the US' economic siege is the primary cause, as it has been making it difficult for the Cuban economy for how long?

It actually amazes me that Castro has lived so long, as the US has not been able to do what they did with Chile, Guatemala and other "undesired" governments.

[Mika]

51. Cuba has a huge civil militia.

Poppyseedman, I think that it is you who needs to "borrow a clue". Relying on Miamicubano "exiles" for your information about the current Cuba isn't the way to get accurate untainted information.

Millions of Cubans are part of the civil militia. They train regularly. They have their militia firearms at home, at the ready. (AK 47 rifles and handguns, the large stuff is stored at depots all over the island ready at a moments notice.)

Still, Mr Castro drives around in an open jeep and gives speeches in front of hundreds of thousands without a kevlar vest nor behind bulletproof glass shielding.

Its too bad that Americans remain travel banned by the dictate of the US government so they cannot easily see this.

I've been to Cuba many times (legally, with permits) and have seen this for myself.

[killbotfactory]

52. It's like going to FreeRepublic to learn about Clinton

Not the most unbiased perspective...

[manic expression]

55. Very true n/t

[soda]

107. er if you heard it from someone else that makes it 2nd hand

I had a great holiday in Cuba 2 years ago with my family staying in private houses offering bed and breakfast, on the first of may we went to hear castro speak we got within 50 yards of fidel castro and got photos we whernt stopped or checked, why? the great majority´of cubans really like castro
i wonder how close YOU or I could get to bush?

[Judi Lynn]

108. Are you saying there's something odd about our Free Speech Zones?

Sometimes protesters here can almost get a glimpse of the limosines taking _Bush to the event! Maybe really strong binoculars would help. How great is that?



Welcome to D.U., soda! :hi: :hi: :hi:

[nodehopper]

54. how come we didn't hear much from the Soviet people

about how brutal Stalin was until 1953?

[manic expression]

38. How is he

a "brutal dictator"?

A dictator needs absolute power. That is not the case:
http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQDemocracy.html

Castro is a figurehead who excercises little power. The Cuban people are well represented, and this is but one example of how this works out (do you think Castro just does this simply from the bottom of his heart?).

I would like to see some examples of political prisoners, because virtually all of the "dissidents" who had been arrested had the well-documented backing of the US, which is not only illegal (in the US as well, IIRC) but also an act against Cuba's amazing progress.

Oh, do you mean these political prisoners?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4569981.stm

Or perhaps these?
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/4567393.stm

Seriously, the arrested dissidents were on the US payroll. Being on the payroll of a nation that has been continuously aggressive toward Cuba is both wrong and a crime (to the Cuban people as well, no less).

I await your response.

[Poppyseedman]

48. Gee, you must have missed these sentences

Ms Roque said the rally - held in a garden outside one of the organisers' homes - was the first open opposition meeting in 46 years of Communist rule.

The delegates have called for the release of all political prisoners in Cuba.

Czech Senator Karel Schwarzenberg and German MP Arnold Vaatz had been seized by police and driven to Havana airport on Thursday.

The European Commission described the expulsions as unacceptable.

Two Polish MEPs were refused entry to Cuba earlier in the week.

And at least two journalists, from Poland and Italy, were detained by the Cuban authorities ahead of the meeting.
Text

Hey, it's a free country. I guess we can both believe in our own form of propaganda

[manic expression]

49. Not really

"all political prisoners"...like which ones? That's coming from what great source? I thought so.

Give me ONE link of political prisoners and their reasons for being incarcerated. ONE link. The dissidents that have been imprisoned have been imprisoned for recieving support from the US government. That is more than justified, as the US has even set up a special post to topple the Cuban government.

What would be good of you to note is that other dissidents, such as Oswaldo Paya, have criticized those dissidents for recieving US backing AND they have criticized the US for doing what it has done. Those dissidents are left alone by the government. That should tell you something.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/3702431.stm

On that "first meeting in 46 years", they've been allowed to demonstrate before (this is but one example):
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/551026.stm

This, however, is incorrect:
"Public protests are illegal in the one-party system."

That's not true. Peaceful assembly is allowed, but the government usually mobilizes pro-government activists to oppose the protestors (kind of like a pro-government ARA, if you've ever heard of them). That is backed up by the article I linked.

As was stated before, those European attendents didn't have the right visas. It was perfectly reasonable for the Cuban government to do what they did.

Please view post #92 on this thread

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=view_all&address=102x1987239#1990234

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

61. "Those dissidents are left alone by the government. "

No they aren't. They're kept under 24/7 surveilance by the government so that in the event that they cross the line into "unacceptable" dissent they can be arrested and thrown in prison indefinitely on trumped-up charges. Castro finds it useful to have some dissidents free. Paya is as much a tool of the government as the security services.

[manic expression]

67. Again, do you have a link?

You need to back up your claims.

Secondly, even IF they are under surveilance, how is that so much different from the US?

Another thing is that those "dissidents" were not thrown in prison on trumped-up charges. Cuba didn't need to fabricate anything, because the connections between those dissidents and illegal US support are well documented. Accepting support and funds from a government that has perpetually tried to destabilize a country is both illegal (in the US, as well) and an act against the achievements of Cuba.

Oh, and how many dissidents were arrested? IIRC, 75. Therefore, the amount of dissidents that are free is: x - 75 = y. "x" being the amount of total dissidents and "y" being the amount of free dissidents. That's a bit more than "some".

[Mika]

70. Your position becomes clearer

Posted by yibbehobba-->"Paya is as much a tool of the government as the security services."



So, like the Miamicubano hard liner "exiles" you call Cuban domestic political parties and the party reps to be "as much a tool of the government as the security services"?

Paya has won a Nobel prize for his independent political activities.

Like you, the hard line Miamicubano exiles (and the Bush admin) completely dismiss the Cuban domestic political parties that are not on the US payroll.
Interesting indeed.


Many political parties in Cuba (including the domestic non US funded opposition) have come to the realization that being on the US payroll only hinders their credibility as real domestic political parties. (You do understand that being on the US payroll diminishes credibility of being a genuine domestic party, don't you?) Oswaldo Paya, Elizardo Sanchez & Eloy Gutiérrez-Menoyo (all reps of domestic Cuban political parties) decry the US interference in the native Cuban political dialog & dissent.

They have come to the realization that the US intends to undermine the real domestic parties because the US has other intentions for Cuba/Cubans if the US can control the "transition" post Castro. That's the reason that the US spends millions of our tax dollars on various "Cuba transition /studies/projects/plans" in Miami and Washington. The US wants to put Cuba under its thumb, again. Cubans rejected that in the 1959 revolution, and they still do reject it.

The intent of this shift of focus is to place focus away from the fact that Cuba does have legitimate domestic opposition which does not adhere to US goals of subjugating Cuba or privatizing Cuba's infrastructure. Therefore the US policy is to ignore and undermine Cuba's legitimate domestic political opposition parties by focusing nearly 100% on the US funded & fabricated "dissident" operatives as if they are the only opposition, and by dismissing the real non US funded domestic Cuban political parties as tools of the government.

Your position becomes much clearer now that you agree with the hard line exiles and the Bush admin on this.

[Judi Lynn]

71. I remember when the Varela petition was being promoted.

The Miami "exiles" were completely angry about it, as it seems their belief is that the real Cubans are obligated to wait until the corrupt, greedy, idiotic Miami Cubans can seize the reigns of power again.

They don't want Cubans in control of their own government. Period. They see themselves as Cuba's next leaders, all over again. I don't even live there, but I know Jorge Mas Canosa believed he would be the next President, until he died:

"Jorge has always had a well-established agenda of his own," warns Raul Masivdal, CANF co-creator and former friend of Mas Canosa. "He is on a quest to become the future dictator of Cuba. He is a monster in the making." (Time, 10/26/92)
(snip)

http://64.233.161.104/search?q=cache:xQqmOHDYWkoJ:cuban-exile.com/doc_126-150/doc0146b.html+Jorge+Mas+Canosa+%22El+Pais%22+%22They+haven%27t+even+been+able+to+take+over+Miami%22&hl=en

This quote is laughable and illustrative of what kind of people they are:

7/1/94 7/31/94 The Miami Herald reprints an interview with Jorge Mas Canosa from the Spanish newspaper El Pais. Mas Canosa was asked by El Pais whether he believed Americans would take over Cuba if Fidel Castro fell. The Herald quoted Mas Canosa as saying, in part, "They haven't even been able to take over Miami! If we have kicked them out of here, how could they possibly take over our own country?" (MH, 7/28/94; WP, 7/28/94)
(snip)

Since Mas Canosa has died, I have heard that Lincoln Diaz-Balart believes he's next on the very, very short list.

I've also heard one of the Cuban State Senators, like Rudy Garcia or DAvid Rivera, boasting that he were back in Cuba he would be an alcade, or some such silliness. (You remember one of those men's grandmother went to a government office to pick up her FOOD STAMPS, in the last year or so, (was in the South Florida papers) and didn't get the groveling reaction she required from the office workers, and raised so much hell that SIX employees were fired. I felt wild amazed rage that a Florida Cuban senator was treating his grandmother to food aid she most surely didn't need, at taxpayers' expense.)

These former big fish in a very small bowl believe the people of Cuba shouldn't be able to have their own government, but should surrender 45 years of hard work and progress and let them back into the positions of power they abused. What vanity! What deluded self-importance.

[Mika]

59. The pols and journalists made false visa declarations upon entering Cuba

The EU politicians were expelled because they entered using a tourist visa and did not declare that they were in Cuba as agents/representatives of their state & organizations on business.

They lied to Cuban customs/immigration officers when they entered Cuba and then passed through Cuban customs/immigration.

The US also requires that foreign agents entering the US on business declare that they are doing so. If foreign agents lie to US customs/immigration officers upon entry under similar circumstances then one is subject to expulsion also (and the US has expelled foreign agents for doing just that).

The same goes for the "journalists" who entered Cuba on a tourist visa, all the while they were intending to work for their publications by attending meetings and reporting on them.

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

62. For fuck's sake.

The EU politicians were expelled because they entered using a tourist visa and did not declare that they were in Cuba as agents/representatives of their state & organizations on business.

Do you actually believe this crap?


The US also requires that foreign agents entering the US on business declare that they are doing so. If foreign agents lie to US customs/immigration officers upon entry under similar circumstances then one is subject to expulsion also (and the US has expelled foreign agents for doing just that).


I defy you to find a similar incident anywhere in recent US history.


The same goes for the "journalists" who entered Cuba on a tourist visa, all the while they were intending to work for their publications by attending meetings and reporting on them.

Indeed. One wonders, then, why they didn't enter the country properly. I suppose they just forgot why they were there.

[manic expression]

69. Perhaps this will help

US visas are refused all the time:

"But Marek Purowski, spokesman for the Polish Embassy, said that information is widely available and requires only a visit to the State Department web site. He said they need clear reasons why US visas are refused.

'Why do you refuse visas? Sometimes that is based on unbelievable things like you are a student, not married and don't have a car, so you don't qualify. If this is the policy, tell us, so we can tell our people. Then we'll ask those who are not eligible not to apply, so they don't drive up the overall refusal rate,' he said."
http://www.workpermit.com/news/2005_05_17/us/us_offers_instruction.htm

Perhaps that's a tangent, but nevertheless, do you deny that someone who lies to US customs will not be subject to expulsion? If you do, that is quite sad.

They entered the country properly, but they did not enter the country properly in order to engage in what they tried to do. Journalists should enter according to the (quite reasonable) rules. If they fail to do so, then why should they not be subject to punishments?

[Mika]

72. It has happened before..

Czechoslovakia, U.S. Imperialism and Socialist Cuba
http://www.hartford-hwp.com/archives/43b/141.html

In a January 23, 2001 Press Release, the Ministry of Foreign Affairs of the Republic of Cuba announced the arrest by the Cuban Immigration Division in Ciego de Avila of two Czech nationals Ivan Pilip and Jan Bubenik who were traveling as tourists. The Press Release stated that these two "tourists" were following instructions "from the U.S. based counterrevolutionary organization Freedom House to hold conspiratorial meetings with members of small subversive groups in that province."

Under section 109 of the Helms-Burton Act adopted in 1996, the "Transition Project" received (500,000 dollars) from the U.S. Agency for International Development (USAID). The internal subversion began in 1997 with the generous financing from the USAID to the anti-Cuban "Center for Free Cuba" which was headed by former CIA agent and Freedom House Director Frank Calzon.

Pilip and Bubenik were briefed in New York by a Robert Pontichera who provided them with names and addresses of individuals in Cuba whom they were to speak to in order to obtain information on the political, economic and social situation on the island. In addition Freedom House provided lap tops, accessories, CD's, and diskettes which were to be given to the selected individuals.

The conspiracies begun in 1989 were handled by the U.S. Interests Section in Havana which was used as a conduit to the "dissidents" that were receiving logistic support from the Cuban mafia in Miami also known as the Cuban American National Foundation. For at least a decade Czech officials have been involved in conspiring with Washington to support its policies particularly the illegal and genocidal Blockade. In 1990 Czech officials sponsored counterrevolutionary groups inside Cuba and provided material assistance, technical and financial support as well as political backing.

One such official, Petr Mikyska, Third Secretary of consular affairs was promoted to Acting Charge d'Affairs at the embassy of the Czech Republic in Cuba. Developing close ties to the Second Secretary at the U.S. Interests Section Christopher Sybilla, Mikyska was able to systematically provide material and political support for counterrevolutionary groups. From the Press Release; "He also made many trips to Miami where he was recruited on April 15, 1993 by the Chairman of the Board of Directors of the Cuban American National Foundation., Jose Calvo who was himself a notorious terrorist - and member of the paramilitary group closely linked to plots to assassinate President Fidel Castro."

Cuba has the right to pass laws that prevent foreign interference and financing of political parties (especially organizing and funding from the declared enemy of Cuba, the US, which has launched invasions and assassination ops and terror ops in/against Cuba and against Cuban leadership figures), just as does the USA.

Cuba has the right to expell foreign agents who enter the country under false pretenses, just as does the USA.

[Catrina]

122. 'I defy you to find a similar incident anywhere in recent US history. '

You asked for a 'similar' incident, so I'm not sure if this qualifies, but Cat Stephens??

I know it's different in the sense that Cat Stephens had a proper visa and was NOT lying about his reasons for being here, so we don't know, nor does he, WHY the US government refused to allow him into the country!!


There are others, but you did ask for only one!

[Vidar]

36. Effectively playing Christ to shrub's Satan. Bravo Fidel.

[Joe Chi Minh]

57. If that's meant to be ironical, you've just shot yourself in the foot!

Fidel's concern for and assistance to the poor and marginalised (as a result of satanic capitalism), makes him very much more Christ-like than you or your "fundie" friends are ever likely to be.

[followthemoney]

41. Beware of Cuba's Gulags. There are people locked in inhumane

prisons with no recourse to hearings in a judicial system. The prisons there are notorious the world over.

They are in U.S. occupied Guantanamo!

[Joe Chi Minh]

58. Nice one, followthemoney!

[Cessna Invesco Palin]

63. It's just like a political prisoner franchising business there, isn't it?

:)

[NI4NI]

42. Oil for Doctors

That's the way it works between Chavez and Castro. They're supplying their people with free health care while keeping their country from being hung out over a barrel by the same oil and drug corporations that are sucking our own country dry. No wonder BushCo is trying so hard with the their "perception management" campaigns towards Chavez along with our very own International Republican Institute's (and others) repeated attempts at overthrowing Chavez with federally funded taxes. It's all about the oil, Venazuela switching from the US dollar to the Euro, and unwillingnss to trade agreements.

[reprobate]

75. I say the real difference between the two forms of government is:

Socialism: A system whereby the political power of each citizen is determined simply by his/her humanity.

Capitalism (Corporatism): A system whereby the political power of each citizen is determined simply by his/her ability to contribute to a politician or his party.

A comparison of the healthcare systems of each nation will prove this to be true.

BTW, one of the main tenets of fascism is control of the government by the corporations. Remind you of anything?

[Miss Chybil]

82. Impressive. nt

[skipos]

90. As a Cuban, let me say that none of you would like to live there.

Good medicine, yes. Much freedom, no.

[Judi Lynn]

94. CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland

CIA: Most Cubans loyal to homeland
Agency believes various ties to island bind the majority
By Robert Windrem
NBC NEWS PRODUCER

NEW YORK, April 12 <2000> — Cuban-American exile leaders — and many Republicans in Congress — believe that no Cuban, including Juan Miguel Gonzalez, could withstand the blandishments of a suburban American lifestyle, that he and all other Cubans would gladly trade their “miserable” lives in Cuba for the prosperity of the United States — if only given the chance. Witness House Minority Leader Dick Armey’s invitation to Gonzalez, offering him a tour of a local supermarket. But U.S. intelligence suggests otherwise.

THE CIA has long believed that while 1 million to 3 million Cubans would leave the island if they had the opportunity, the rest of the nation’s 11 million people would stay behind.

While an extraordinarily high number, there are still 8 million to 10 million Cubans happy to remain on the island.
(snip)

The CIA believes there are many reasons Cubans are content to remain in their homeland. Some don’t want to be separated from home, family and friends. Some fear they would never be able to return, and still others just fear change in general. Officials also say there is a reservoir of loyalty to Fidel Castro and, as in the case of Juan Miguel Gonzalez, to the Communist Party.

U.S. officials say they no longer regard Cuba as a totalitarian state with aggressive policies toward its people, but instead an authoritarian state, where the public can operate within certain bounds — just not push the envelope.

More important, Cuban media and Cuban culture long ago raised the banner of nationalism above that of Marxism. The intelligence community says the battle over Elian has presented Castro with a “unique opportunity” to enhance that nationalism.

There is no indication, U.S. officials say, of any nascent rebellion about to spill into the streets, no great outpouring of support for human rights activists in prison. In fact, there are fewer than 100 activists on the island and a support group of perhaps 1,000 more, according to U.S. officials.
(snip/...)

http://members.allstream.net/~dchris/CubaFAQ019.html

[Gloria]

96. The US will destroy this, as well as their nearly 100% literacy rate

when Castro dies. It's in "the book" which details plans to "democratize Cuba" by replacing these wonderful things with our way of doing things....coporatism all the way.

There have been reports on this plan here in the alt. press and posted here at DU....but when you hear the actual US plans being read over the shortwave airways by the hosts of Radio Havana, with outrage, it's much more compelling...

[roody]

98. Commit civil disobedience.

Go to Cuba. It is easy. Also check out Pastors for Peace at ifconews.org. See you in Cuba.

[robcon]

101. Castro's publicity bid is pathetic.

It's an attempt to distract us from his despotism. Like the Roman circuses, it's just for show.

[Mika]

102. I don't think so. Roman circuses never cured the blind.

All of the repititious 'Castro this Castro that' is the distraction from the fact that it is the Cuban people who do the workings of Cuba (like the Drs and nurses and techs and hotel workers etc who are helping the poor and blind that the original post reports), not Castro.

The only Roman circus is the mewling anti Castro crowd that works to distract from the real Cuba - the Cuba that the Cuban people run.

[cantstandbush]

104. Castro is far from the despot that Bush is. I applaud any act that helps

people in need when the elite have controlled governments and corporations to turn their backs on these underserved individuals. Hats off to Fidel!!!

[cantstandbush]

105. I rather have PR to help the masses than PR to fool the masses

as is the case with the US and Bush.

[goforit]

106. WOW!!!......This is such a wonderful gift!!!

This is going to prove that love and kindness may rock the world
more than Bush's fascist tactics through terror.

[TheWraith]

110. Sheesh.

A country whose primary exports are tobacco and homeless people on rafts is beating us at healthcare? Well, that's more than a little humiliating. :P

Would that we had the will to do something like this.

[fishnfla]

112. "But all will be able to see perfectly before they leave"

I know for a fact thats bullshit. This article is propaganda

[Bridget Burke]

117. Some causes of blindness are easily remedied....

Cataracts are removed under local anesthetic & very little followup is needed. If you can afford the surgery.

By selecting blind people who can be helped by surgery, it's quite true that most of them will be cured.

How are things in Florida? Criticizing Cuba for not having honest elections?

[fishnfla]

131. The article says that ALL of them will see PERFECTLY

That is such hogwash, even you agree. I dont care if the pope claims it or Castro, its bunk.

Some of them have pre-existing conditions such as histoplasmosis, toxoplasmosisis, toxocara canis, chronic retinal detachments, diabetic retinopathy, optic atrophy. I could go on and on. Between 3-5% of the patients will not be helped by cataract surgery, at all, nor will anything else except Jesus Christ laying hands upon them. These conditions are masked by cataracts, even if there were indirect ophthalmoscopes in the countries

Do the math: if they are planning to do 6 mill surgeries, do you know what the incidences of debilitaing post-operative complications are? Things like endophthalmitis, cystoid macular edema, retinal detachments, pressure spikes and chronic glaucoma, corneal edema and Fuch's dystrophy, chronic iritis.To list a few. Your contention that the follow up care is simple is plain wrong. Even in a perfect world these things happen 1-3 % of the time. My feeling is these will be third world surgical centers, inexperienced surgeons, and crappy follow-up care, and up to 5% of these patients will end up worse off than they began.

Things in Florida are great, thanks for asking.

[Mika]

132. Thanks for pointing out just how extensive the help Cuba is giving

My goodness, to attempt to help with 6 million complex surgeries is amazing, even keeping in mind that there are always going to be a small percentage of complications they are still all willing and able to perform so many. Simply amazing thing for Cuba to do.

I've been to Cuba many times (involved with Cuban health care) and I can say that the follow up on patients is complete and well done. It just makes sense to have an adequate follow up system that makes the whole process work, and that's just what the Cuban health care system does. As the article points out, that is just why the hotels are filled up.

Kudos to Cuba.

[stepnw1f]

114. That's Cool

Beats the right wing version of compassion in our own country. Pretty sad being a right winger. So selfish and lonely....

Good on Cuba!

[Judi Lynn]

137. Cuba had a blindness epidemic in its recent past.Heard about this

around 1999, 2000 from someone who has been in Cuba a LOT, and maintains friendships there in the present. Here's a reference to it from another source:

Cuba knows a lot about blind people. Cuba was hit by epidemic of blindness in the late ' 80s and early ' 90s. Tens of thousands of Cubans went blind. Cataract, glaucoma, and diabetic retinopathy (whatever that is) were the main causes of the epidemic. Cuba asked Project Orbis, the New York-based international vision organization, and the World Health Organization to come down and take look at the epidemic and make recommendations. Two teams of scientists went down, took a look, and made recommendations that proved useful.

It was a lucky thing that George W. Bush, his GOPs, and the Miami Mafia weren't in power. They, out of spite and delight, would have never let the US doctors go to Cuba to help the blind.

Well, the epidemic shook the Cubans up ... they developed a passion for the treatment of blindness and low vision.

But the passion of the Cubans for curing blindness was fettered by their limited financial resources. That's where the friendship I mentioned earlier comes into the picture. In the late ' 90s and early ' 00s, the Cubans found a friend who also wanted to cure blindness, the Venezuelans or, at least, the good Venezuelans who are in the majority.

The two friends started something they call Mission Miracle. And it is indeed a miracle. A big miracle. But only the blind (and their families and friends) really know how much a miracle the Mission Miracle is. Mission Miracle flies blind people and others who can hardly see to Cuba to get their eyes fixed and the Venezuelans pay for the Miracle. The patient pays nothing for the treatment, transportation, and accommodations in Cuba.
(snip/...)

http://www.vheadline.com/readnews.asp?id=47292

[Judi Lynn]

138. More info. on former Cuban blindness epidemic:

YALE News Release
CONTACT: Jacqueline Weaver 203-432-8555 #159
Embargoed for Release: 5 p.m., EST, January 17, 2000


U.S. Embargo Against Cuba Contributed to Public Health "Catastrophes" -- Says Yale Medical School Professor

New Haven, Conn. -- The United States embargo against Cuba has contributed to several public health catastrophes, among them an epidemic of blindness due to a dramatic decrease in the supply of nutrients, a Yale physician says.

There also have been epidemics of infants ingesting lye, which is used when soap is not available, and an outbreak of Guillain-Barre syndrome, a form of paralysis associated with water contamination due to lack of chlorination chemicals, said Michele Barry, M.D., professor of medicine and public health and director of the Office of International Health at the Yale School of Medicine.

"The embargo against Cuba is one of the few embargoes that includes both food and medicine and it has been described as a war against public health with high human costs," Barry wrote in an article published January 18 in the Annals of Internal Medicine. "Although curtailments of individual liberties and privacy by the Cuban government may seem as an abridgement of personal freedom, we as health care professionals have a moral duty to protest an embargo which engenders human suffering in Cuba to achieve political objectives."
(snip/...)

http://www.yale.edu/opa/newsr/00-01-17-02.all.html

[Judi Lynn]

139. Cuban Medicine Receives International Recognition (ophthalmology)

Cuban Medicine Receives International Recognition

By Anna Kovac

A Cuban ophthalmology center, public health educator and virologist garnered awards and worldwide recognition for excellent work recently. The Camilo Cienfuegos International Retinosis Center in Havana received the Ibero-American Quality Award for Excellence during the 15th Summit in Salamanca, Spain, in October. The center has treated over 8,000 patients from 85 countries for a variety of eye afflictions, especially retinitis pigmentosa. In Cuba, there is a retinosis center in each of the 14 provinces that provides care for all patients near their home.

The retinosis therapy Cuban Dr. Orfilio Peláez created and put into practice in the center in 1992, is considered an effective treatment for this hereditary disease that can lead to total blindness. The groundbreaking treatment combines surgery, ozone therapy, electrostimulation, magnetic therapy and prescription medicines. A four-year study designed to determine the characteristics of the disease in Cuba that has a prevalence rate of 4.1 per 10,000 inhabitants, affecting 4,123 patients in 2,435 families, is currently underway; it’s slated to end in 2009.
(snip/...)

http://www.medicc.org/medicc_review/0905/headlines-in-cuban-health.html

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I forgot to mention there was a blindness epidemic in Cuba in the 1980's, as well, traceable to an outbreak of dengue fever.

[Mika]

142. Another great series of posts, Judi Lynn.

Bravo, once again! :thumbsup: :thumbsup:

Great links!


Cubans have proven themselves to be resourceful in times of crisis and need, time and time again. They are more than willing to share what they have accomplished with most anyone in need.


Its just shameful that Americans are travel banned by the dictate of the US gov from freely going to Cuba to see it for themselves (instead, having to rely on the mewling Cubaphobes w/their perdurable 'Castro this Castro that' loop).

[orleans]

140. what a great program! n/t