Large explosions reported north of London: witnesses

[maddezmom]

LONDON (Reuters) - A series of massive explosions were reported north of London by witnesses ringing into British media early on Sunday.

One, identified only as Heather, said she heard a loud blast near the commuter town of Hemel Hempstead and could see sheets of flame soaring into the sky.

"There is a fuel depot nearby," she told BBC Television. "There are lots of houses damaged."

Police were not immediately available for comment but another eye witness also said he thought there had been an explosion at the fuel depot.

more:http://news.yahoo.com/s/nm/20051211/ts_nm/britain_explosion_dc;_

The explosion was massive, woke me up out of a deep sleep and I'm not even close to it.

[JohnLocke]

1. Oil depot blasts cause casualties in city north of London

Three large explosions have taken place at an oil depot near Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire.
Police say there are casualties. They are at the scene, said a spokesman.

The first blast happened at 0603 GMT, at the Buncefield oil depot, close to the junction 8 of the M1 motorway 10 miles from Luton Airport.

Residents up to 15 miles from the scene reported hearing a "loud boom". One eye witness told BBC News: "There are lots of houses damaged."

Witnesses said another two explosions followed the first at 0626 GMT and 0627 GMT.

(...)
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4517962.stm

[theHandpuppet]

36. Much more of the story from the BBC

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/4517962.stm

[uppityperson]

2. rumors of plane @ bbc?????

"Several other neighbours said they did see a plane go into the depot." http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4517962.stm
Let us know what's up and good luck, am glad you are nowhere near and sorrow for those involved.

[babylonsister]

3. Please, no planes involved! nt

[...of J.Temperance]

6. No planes mentioned, but the explosion is obviously HUGE it was

Heard from Norwich to the outskirts of North London.

[...of J.Temperance]

4. Got SKY News on...Ramada Hotel nearby evacuated...windows blew out

SKY News talking to someone who was/is staying at the Ramada Hotel in Hemel Hempstead, said all people evacuated after explosion blew the hotel windows out.

Fuck, I HOPE it's just an accident, I HOPE it's not something more sinister.

[...of J.Temperance]

5. Blast heard across South East and along the Kent coast...

Say BBC News. SKY News has some footage, darkness and in the middle large orange flames...could be from someones cell phone.

[kysrsoze]

7. Well, an exploding fuel depot is a bit coincidental these days

On edit, yeah looks like I jumped the gun on the plane thing. I guess the question is what type of fuel depot this is. I hope this isn't something sinister. It would be the perfect place for both Al Qaeda to strike and for some rather large oil companies to make more money. Hmmm...

[SIU_Blue]

8. from BBC

"The first blast happened at 0603 GMT, at the Buncefield oil depot, close to the junction 8 of the M1 motorway 10 miles from Luton Airport."

[...of J.Temperance]

17. There's now confusion over the time...someone said it might have been

Before 6.03am.

[babylonsister]

9. If it's anything like Houston, TX, explosions, some severe,

happen fairly often. Fuel depots abound here.

[wookie294]

29. Don't squash our need to believe it was al-Qaeda

Please allow us to remain hysterical and parnanoid. It's more fun. Thanks.

[rainbow4321]

25. Think they said Texaco, Shell, and BP...

use this depot along with some other companies. The depot reportedly is a major supplier to airlines/airports so they are expecting problems with their fuel supply now.

[melody]

10. I just called friends near London

They said they could smell an acrid scent outside, but that it might be something local to the air and have nothing
to do with it. They live on the outskirts of Berkhamstead, I think (unless they've moved). It was "loud
- very loud".

We have all our fingers crossed for everyone.

[ticapnews]

11. CNN, MSNBC useless

can't be bothered to break into their all-important reruns of meaningless tripe to report on something as insignificant as explosions in London...

[SIU_Blue]

13. Amen, I can't believe it

There's nothing like a 24 hour news network to say NOTHING about a huge explosion in a major world city. Jeez, and even when they have a chance to boost some ratings.

[...of J.Temperance]

15. I'm leaving SKY News on...so as I'm awake...I'll provide LIVE updates

Where needed...meaning IF there's any new developments I'll post them. It's just getting daylight.

[rainbow4321]

20. Did they all close up shop?

Cuz there is nothing on their webpages, either. Maybe they are waiting for Rove to call with his spin on it all..can't have them thinking on their own or anything.

[Brundle_Fly]

27. CNN International has it now.

they are talking about a plane.... they are saying it was more from sounds they heard than any visuals.

authorities are discounting a plane....

[ECH1969]

12. I just saw on french news that

its was reported that some locals said they saw a plane dive into an oil depot.

[...of J.Temperance]

14. SKY News nor the BBC is mentioning a plane n/t

[ECH1969]

16. French news just did

Maybe they were just quoting the BBC article, but they said it was reported that locals saw a plane.

[...of J.Temperance]

19. No mention on LIVE BBC News of this...I'll WAIT until BBC News

Actually can confirm or deny. At present the plane rumor is from one woman, and must be treated as speculation.

[maddezmom]

18. ITV has live shots now

and I haven't heard anything about a plane yet on BBC, Sky or ITV

edited for spelling

[...of J.Temperance]

21. BBC Ceefax says THREE explosions...NO MENTION OF PLANE

I hope the person above that keeps insisting on a plane being mentioned pays attention to your above post and my posts.

BBC Ceefax says three explosions at oil depot.

[maddezmom]

23. ITV just said police spokesman says no plane involved

[...of J.Temperance]

24. Good...and Herts Police are treating this as an accident n/t

[wookie294]

22. Why is this on international news? n/t

[Thor_MN]

67. So that fuel prices can go up in the US

They have to find some reason to jack up the prices at the pump... Any reason will do.

[Up2Late]

26. Massive explosions strike oil depot near a London airport (AFP)

Massive explosions strike oil depot near a London airport

11/12/2005 08h16
©

LONDON (AFP) - "Massive" explosions have struck an oil depot, owned by Total and Texaco, near one of London's main airports, filling the sky with orange flames and shattering windows and damaging roofs at nearby homes, police and witnesses said. Police said there had been two or three explosions at the Buncefield oil depot in Hertfordshire, northwest of London, about 20 kilometres (10 miles) from Luton airport, just before 6:00 am (0600 GMT).

A police spokeswoman said they have no evidence to suggest that massive explosions at an oil depot near one of London's airports were "caused by anything other than an accident,". "There's nothing to suggest at this stage this is anything other than accident, although we're keeping an open mind," a spokeswoman with Hertfordshire police told AFP. Casualties were feared, the police added.

The depot is a joint venture between Total UK and Texaco, according to a Total spokesman. "We're doing everything possible to support the emergency services and we're working closely with them to bring the situation under control," a spokesman said on BBC television, without saying whether there were casualties.

The blast was so powerful that it was heard as far as west and south London and, closer to the scene, blew the roofs off houses, according to Richard Ayres, a witness told BBC television. "It's like it's doomsday," said Ayres, who was watching the inferno from about 500 meters (yards). "The words I'm getting from friends of mine, they've actually had their roofs blown off the houses."

<http://www.afp.com/english/news/stories/051211081637.vuom6hns.html>
(more at link above)

[Up2Late]

28. It's being covered live by CNN International

Just said the M-1 and M-10 are closed, not that means much to us in the U.S.

<http://edition.cnn.com/>

I think they have a live link too.

[...of J.Temperance]

32. Thank GOD it WASN'T tomorrow...that's a MEGA busy thing the M1

And peoples' windows have blown out of their houses, I dread to think at 6am with rush hour traffic on the M1, thousands of cars and car windows.

[JoFerret]

33. The M1 is always busy

.

[...of J.Temperance]

34. Yes but at 6am on a Sunday, not as busy as 6am on a Monday n/t

[LonelyLRLiberal]

30. BBC on-line has coverage and film

http://www.bbc.co.uk/

[Up2Late]

31. Here's the report from The Guardian

8.15am update

Fuel depot hit by huge blasts

Staff and agencies
Sunday December 11, 2005

A series of explosions tore through an oil depot early today, sending flames and smoke shooting hundreds of feet into the sky. Police and emergency crews raced to the scene of the blasts which rocked Buncefield fuel terminal, near Hemel Hempstead, in Hertfordshire.

There were unconfirmed reports of casualties at the depot. Police said the incident was an "accident". The first blast happened just after 6am at the fuel terminal in Leverstock Green, which is believed to supply aviation fuel via pipes to Heathrow airport.

The force of the blast - which was heard up to 40 miles away - sent flames shooting 200ft into the sky. A spokeswoman for Hertfordshire police said: "Police and other emergency services are attending the area of Buncefield oil depot near Hemel Hempstead this morning following reports of an explosion just after 6am.

"There is nothing to suggest at this stage that this is anything but an accident, but we are keeping an open mind." Referring to earlier reports, she said: "Contrary to rumours in circulation, there is also nothing to suggest that a plane was involved in this accident."

<http://www.guardian.co.uk/uk_news/story/0,3604,1664888,00.html?gusrc=rss>
(more at link above)

[Mokito]

35. Massive explosions hit fuel depot (BBC World)

Three large explosions have rocked a fuel depot near Hemel Hempstead in Hertfordshire shooting flames hundreds of feet into the sky.
Police say there are casualties and emergency services are at the scene.

The first blast happened at 0603 GMT at the Buncefield fuel depot, close to junction 8 of the M1 motorway, 10 miles from Luton airport.

It is being treated as an accident and rumours that a plane was involved are unfounded, said a police spokesman.

more...

[xultar]

37. No missing Blonde Blue eyed US white women...that is why there

is no breaking news in the US on this.

[truthisfreedom]

38. hmm... i'm not sure that's a sign of anything

it is 4AM central on a Sunday. probably the lowest possible number of reporters are awake at this moment.

[JoFerret]

39. This demand for instant gratification is disturbing

When what we really need is actual news, perspective and attention over time.

[truthisfreedom]

40. that may be true but with the tools we have at hand (interenet/cable news)

it's very difficult not to expect to be able to find out everything about an event as fast as possible.

the latest administration has taken advantage of our ever-shortening attention spans more than ever before. we can't even remember the details of any particular scandal from one news cycle to the next.

[Stella_Artois]

41. Eye - Witness photo's

[Stella_Artois]

42. More

[Stella_Artois]

43. More pics from eye witnesses

None of these pics are in the media yet, but only a matter of time

[truthisfreedom]

45. incredible photos. thanks for taking the time to post these...

do you mind if i ask how you found that collection from so many different sites?

[Stella_Artois]

58. Finger on the pulse...

Or read a lot of UK forums, you be the judge lol

Some of those images are from a forum that took them from a poster on a different forum, and they are not copyrighted.

I just thought they wouldn't be available to American DU readers, and that you'd like to see them.

[muriel_volestrangler]

47. This thread is a bit graphics-heavy now, isn't it?

I think that's 14 photos at about 100K each - I'm glad I've got broadband, or it would take about 5 minutes to load!

[Jakey]

65. Please edit...

Geez...edit your post and re-size the dang pictures...it's an easy option when you upload to imageshack

[bemildred]

53. Thanks for putting those up. nt

[IndianaGreen]

64. Thanks for all the photos!

They are like a scene from Apocalypse Now, particularly the ones showing the buildings destroyed and in flames.

[PCIntern]

44. Ben Stiller

How can MSNBC possibly cover this when Mr. Stiller's Headlines and Legends show re-re-re-re-rerun is on? After all, as a member of the Lucky Sperm Club, Mr. Stiller is more than entitled to his airtime so he can promote his latest effort. So shape up you conspiracy theorists...

Sheesh...it's only an oil dump. Lucky for us we are completely safe here from this type of catastrophe, right?

[truthisfreedom]

46. yeah right. (pics link to Praxair fire last year, St. Louis)

http://www.ksdk.com/news/photogallery.aspx?gid=81102&pid=6

[hang a left]

54. ?????

Those don't look like the same photos to me.

[Stella_Artois]

57. Lets just get this right

You are claiming that those photo's are actually of an unrelated incident in America ?

Thats great, glad we have you here to see through it for us....

[muriel_volestrangler]

48. I can actually see that this isn't big international news

Yes, 4 people were seriously injured, and there are about 30 with minor injuries; but that's not that big. 'Catastrophe' is a bit extreme a word, I think.

[Michael_UK]

50. I tend to agree

This is only big international news if this is a terrorist attack. If it isn't then it's a big national story, but not international.
So far (and I don't like to speak too soon), the police are saying that this is probably an accident

[PCIntern]

51. OK, environmental catastrophe...

if you prefer. funny how we're real sensitive about a little pollution from each service station or the effluent from a dental office in terms of mercury poisoning the environment, but when millions of gallon of crude explode and burn, there's no big deal.

that's not meant personally now, but it's kinda funny. When 9/11 occurred my first thought when the towers collapsed was who's gonna be breathing this in for the next 25 years? And what's the incidence gonna be of pulmonary disease in the NY area? If I were a medical student now, I'd go into Pulmonary medicine, go to NYC and wait about 5 years. Bonanza!

This is how it is with public health. Every fiber of asbestos was suctioned in some of these rehabs, but then no one says much publicly about the nightmare that was created at ground zero which will affct millions of lives for a very long time.

[muriel_volestrangler]

55. Yes, I suppose the smoke effects may be significant

but that doesn't seem to be a 'breaking news' story for the whole world to me - we have to speculate what may happen (how long the fire will last, what the wind will do), rather than saying what has happened. It's the top story in the UK, which seems reasonable (some people injured (and I don't know if all the workers have definitely been accounted for), a major motorway closed, windows shattered, fire might last for days, people being advised to close their windows), But I'd say it's not vital news for Americans.

[PCIntern]

56. Agreed given that it isn't a terrorist attack

so they say at this time.

If their lips are moving, however...who knows?

[fedsron2us]

52. It is bad but it does not appear to be another Flixborough

http://www.hse.gov.uk/comah/sragtech/caseflixboroug74.htm

Even the impact on fuel supplies is likely to be temporary since this was a fuel storage depot and not a refinery. Still, it can not be much fun if you live in the immediate vicinity

On edit - It was a very big bang that was heard clearly in central London many miles away. The fact that the initial blast was so loud makes me think it is unlikely to be a terrorist attack because an explosive device detonating liquid fuel tanks would have to be very big to have that immediate effect. Some form of vapour cloud explosion sounds more likely. I expect that the maintenance records of the plant over recent months might make interesting reading.

[Benbow]

70. Chap working in Fujifilm building reported smelling fumes just before

explosion. His is one of the earliest reports on a BBC message board - now worked up into a story:

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4518426.stm

He said that he could smell fuel fumes in the air but did not have time to work out whether it was inside or outside his building. The first explosion destroyed his building around him, leaving him almost unscathed.

[...of J.Temperance]

49. 1.00PM UPDATE: Herts Police Press Conference on casualty numbers:

Hertfordshire Police say that there are so far 36 casualties, with two of them being "seriously injured", said it's "amazing" that such a small amount of people were injured, the police put this down to "the time of day" that the accident occured.

Police say that over 100 police and fire fighters are on the scene in Hemel Hempstead and that "the fire is under control and shouldn't be expected to spread."

The Highways Agency have said that "sections of the M1 are to be closed for the rest of the day."

That's the LATEST update on the oil depot accident situation.

On Edit: Dammit spelling error.

[Stella_Artois]

59. Smoke cloud visable from space

[Briar]

62. There's something wrong with that pic.

The plume seems to originate somewhere near Swindon or so! London is just south of Hemel Hempstead.

[Briar]

63. Ah - I see

Some of the smoke is drifting towards Swindon, but the point of origin is north of London at the top of the thickest area of cloud, I believe.

[CJCRANE]

60. 3-11, 9-11...12-11?

The only thing that makes me suspicious is the date, Al-Qaeda seems to like certain patterns in the dates they carry out operations in the West. Having said that, if it was al-Qaeda they probably would've hit four places at the same time, seems to be their MO.

On edit: the British authorities usually play these things down at the beginning. For instance on 7-7 they referred to the incidents as "electrical outages" initially, so the initial reports aren't necessarily to be trusted.

[Joe Chi Minh]

66. An explosives expert said that the detonation was too loud to

be consistent with fuel/petrol combustion. My wife, who was listening, said the explosion was heard as far afield as Kent and even Norfolk.

[fedsron2us]

68. Depends if it is liquid fuel or vapour which has combusted.

Petrol vapour is pretty volatile. It is also heavier than air so will not dissipate if there is no breeze to shift it. Southern England was still cold and foggy last night.

If it was a bomb then it would have had to have been very, very big. In fact to create a blast like the original explosion in Hemel Hempstead it would have required a device larger than the massive Bishopsgate lorry bomb which the IRA detonated in the city of London in 1993.

[Joe Chi Minh]

71. I would have thought so. But I don't doubt middle-Eastern

terrorists are as resourceful as the IRA, and very much better funded. I don't know if you are an expert in explosions, but this bloke was.

[Gregorian]

61. Comments made on a British forum

I love these guys! If the world would only learn to stop freaking out so much.

THE BIG EXPLOSION THREAD!
.
.
.
5 tankers exploded already supposedly.

Terrorism = Speculative...
Accident = Likely


Here are the responses-

why are tv dinners so unbearably small?
I just had one and a chicken cordon blue and I'm still famished. I weigh like 130 lbs. What the fuck?

I know what you mean.
Baby Carrots...baby potatoes...baby chicken...

BBC Bill
"um.. it`s obviously a very combustable place"
yes Bill - thank you for pointing out that fuel is indeed combustable

Fire = Hot

Bang = big
Insurance = Job

[wordpix2]

69. too coincidental given the place to be "accident," IMO. Photos remind:

we're at war, despite lack of draft.

[Benbow]

73. Fuel refineries must have the most rigorous safety procedures -

which is why, I am afraid, I don't believe this was an industrial accident.

[Joe Chi Minh]

75. Also, I thought it highly suspicious that just one person

was reported to have been badly injured - which is part of the MO of terrorists, who have come to realise that optimal success for their purposes is achieved by galvanising the Government, without alienating the population more than necessary, to effect their goal.

[muriel_volestrangler]

78. Which terrorists are you talking about?

Plenty of terrorists aim for maximum casualties.

[Joe Chi Minh]

79. Different terrorists have different objectives.

The IRA finally realised that while the British Establishment didn't care tuppence whether Rag, Tag and Bobtail, died in their hundreds of thousands in NI, blow up a sizable financial institution in the City, and they'd be at any covert negotiating table of the IRA's choosing, within hours.

It strikes me that the treatment of Moslem terrorist suspects in the UK has, for the most part, tended to be lawful and relatively humane. It also happens that we have significant populations of law-abiding Moslems in this country, with a vested interest in a peaceful environment in which to prosper. On the other hand, one hit on a significant economic target is of incalculable value to the terrorists in "bringing the Government round" to their way of thinking. Thereafter, mere threats can cause major and costly dispruptions, and even prejudice the commercial status of the country as a safe haven for foreign investments.

When you consider that these Thatcherite corporatist loonies have been decimating our own home-grown manufacturing industry for the past 25 years, in favour of the vehicles of the invisible-earnings spivs, and the current grotesque scale of "inward investment", which such strong countries Germany and France would despise, the rationale becomes clearer still.

As ever, even as they wrap themselves in the flag, the UK neocons of left and right are bereft of all sense of honour and decency. Money is their God, period. You Americans have sufficient pride to retain the erstwhile British imperial measures, while these clowns needlessly forced decimal measures internally. Not content with that, they sold off Rolls Royce and other flagship enterprises to foreign companies. I was thrilled, since it was a vindication of what I knew about them. I didn't take a perverse pride in Rolls Royce as the best car in the world. A great car to be proud of, yes. But it was they who made idols of such flagship symbols of Britishness, and it was they who couldn't wait to sell their material birthright for a mess of potage - once he price was right. They know the price of everything, remember, and the value of nothing. Could you imagine the Germans selling off Mercedes or BMW to foreigners? Or France, Renault? Forget it.

But I digress. The terrorists and their people know that, generally-speaking, at worst, the people of this country are idiots, not mindless killers. The Arabic world wouldn't have an orgasm at the thought of instilling Shock and Awe on the people of this country; they would probably just want to give Blair and co a wake-up call. In asymmetric warfare, the big guys can be made to cry.

[muriel_volestrangler]

80. After all that, I still don't know which terrorists you think did this

Are you claiming the IRA is still active? Or that "the Arabic world" did it? Do they have any history of economic terrorism against us? I can't think of any.

I'm British too, by the way.

[Joe Chi Minh]

81. Well, I would think Arabic, wouldn't you?

My reference to the IRA was illustrative. I didn't realise you were Brit.

[muriel_volestrangler]

82. But that's the point - there's been no Arabic economic terrorism

against us. You say they "have come to realise that optimal success for their purposes is achieved by galvanising the Government", but I can't think of an example. If you count al Qaeda as Arabic, then it has aimed at people.

[Joe Chi Minh]

83. On the contrary. The ever-spiraling costs to the West of

increased anti-terrorist security must be absolutely phenomenal. Not to speak of lost air traffic for quite some time. I dare say anti-IT terrorist security will have spiraled too. It's not inconceivable that we have been kept in the dark about terrorists' successes in that sphere.

Also, the economic cost to Bushco and big Oil in Iraq with the terrorists constant blowing up the pipelines, we know, is astronomical. So where do you get the idea that Arabic terrorists haven't attacked economic targets? What sort of costs do you imagine ensued for the Spanish government from the terrorist train explosions? What sort of economic costs do you imagine ensued for the UK government from the underground and bus explosions - and continue to ensue?

It sounds crazy but, although I think I'd probably factored in that the location was close to the capital, when I wrote that post, the penny hadn't even dropped concerning the highly probable significance of its being an oil depot!

[muriel_volestrangler]

85. you said the terrorists

were concerned with "galvanising the Government, without alienating the population more than necessary". That's not a description anyone would apply to the Spanish train bombbs, the London bombs, or 9/11. They all involved high loss of life. So did the embassy bombs in Africa, and the bombs in Istanbul and Bali. This happened when there was almost no-one there, and not a single person has been killed. It looks nothing like an al Qaeda-related attack.

[Joe Chi Minh]

86. I know too little about the bombings in the Far East and Africa

and any relevant context to comment on them. However, look at the differences in the responses of the Spaniards and the British to the terrorist attacks in their respective countries, and that of Americans to the 9/11 attacks. The loss of life in the first two, while infinitely painful to the families and friends of their victims, was relatively slight compared to the many thousands of people killed in the 9/11 attack, which essentially triggered a diametrically opposite response.

Bush was able to get virtually the whole country behind him, while demonising brown-skinned foreigners. The Spaniards (who also had relatively recent experience of bloody civil war) reacted almost immediately by getting a grip of their government. It took longer to happen in the UK, but it didn't take long for a strong anti-war movement to coalesce, while even our habitually perjurious press began to turn against the war, notably our participation in it, and become critical of all things neocon. It was obvious why they had occurred, and the facile demonising of "those mindless killers" in the media, was never going hack it.

I think if 9/11 had happened in Spain, the right-wing premier might still have had difficulty in placing the ultimate blame on the terrorists, rather than their government's participation in the coalition, admittedly always nominal, but of immense significance to the neocons' plans. But, with our historic national gullibility and complacency in relation to our government and media, it's possible the demonising disinformation might have lasted a good bit longer.

Do you remember the outrage in the UK, admittedly decades ago now, when the IRA blew up 2 pubs, and killed 21 people? The UK establishment was still gung ho about NI and the press were their willing lackeys. It caused outrage, mostly, I think, because the people had been kept in the dark concerning the way in which the Catholics in NI were treated by the Protestants. Otherwise, they might have turned against the government of the day, as well as raging against the IRA. But compare the reaction then, to the bombings of the big insurance building and Canary Wharf. People felt very sorry for the newsagent who had been killed and his family, but there was nothing like the outcry. And what's more, I think most Brits would have more sympathy for the homeless on our streets than for the Tory victims of the Brighton bomb, who were so instrumental in causing their horrific plight.

Would you mourn the destruction of the HQ of one of our insurance companies? Maybe you would, for reasons you consider patriotic, or because we, the public, would eventually bear the cost. I wouldn't personally blow one up, but I know just what the maverick American environmentalist, Edward Abbey, meant when he said: "I know my own nation best. That's why I despise it the most. And I know and love my own people, too, the swine. I'm a patriot, a dangerous man."

I've got no axe to grind as regards what people think in this matter now. On the news, it's just been reported as an accident. However, I can see that our establishment, political and economic, can't get out of Iraq quickly enough, because they know it's a futile war, and they've not been able to make a killing up to now, like Halliburton etc. Big Bushco mistake. But too late to rectify now.

Incidentally, you haven't commented on the incalculable economic damage done to the West by the very threat of terrorism, which you seemed to deny. Incidentally, the explosion was apparently heard in Holland, and is said to have been the loudest explosion here since WWII.

And lay off the voles.

[muriel_volestrangler]

87. I'm not denying that terrorism can do economic damage

I'm just saying that al Qaeda-linked terrorism aims for high casualites. You seem to deny that, despite the high death tolls in their terrorism. Instead, you claimed that terrorism with low casualites is the normal mode of operation of al Qaeda. That just doesn't fit with the facts, as far as I can tell.

As you say, the IRA did switch to low casualty bombs, on the whole. But neither of us think this was the IRA or any group related to them. You seem to be ascribing IRA tactics to people who have never used them.

I can't see how the reaction of the Spanish shows anything. The people were outraged by the loss of life, not the economic cost. Similarly, all the feeling about the London bombs has been about the people killed, not the money. They seem irrelevant to your position - instead, they back up mine.

[Joe Chi Minh]

88. "Well, I would think Arabic, wouldn't you?"

was what I said. Did I mention Al Quaeda before? If so, it was inappropriately specific, though it seems a pretty irrelevant issue to me.

Why would "people who have never used them" in the past, not use them now or in the future? To assume that they wouldn't because they haven't in the past, seems a rather a facile surmise, doesn't it?

Your mind seems to be running on very rigid tracks, if I may say so. If it was the work of Arab terrorists, what makes you think they would be unlikely to focus on an economic target, having, like the IRA, seen the relatively limited success of their attacks on the populace in the UK, up to now - simply because they are Arab terrrorists and it would deviate from their normal m.o.? Incidentaly, Arab terrorists and the IRA have long collaborated in these activities. Not perhaps directly, but in terms of know-how, training and materiel.

Sophisticated terrorists, as most long-term ones are, as well as enjoying substantial support from their own people, are evidently led by highly intelligent people who are fast learners and very adapatable.

The negative economic consequences of this explosion, whatever its cause, must be enormous. And it may yet cause widespread sickness and premature deaths through cancer and respiratory diseases. If perpetrated by terrorists of any and every nationality, why muddy the water by mixing apples with ornages. It would be the government they want to get a grip of. And they wouldn't need the assistance of popular outrage obtained by killing people, to put pressure on it.

It sounds as if both Bush and Blair will be focused on getting out soon anyway, possibly with the help of the Iranians. And if it was the work of terrorists, it will be established as such, if it hasn't been already, and it will certainly help concentrate Blair's mind.

[muriel_volestrangler]

89. You claimed that low casualties was the MO of terrorists

Specifically: "Also, I thought it highly suspicious that just one person was reported to have been badly injured - which is part of the MO of terrorists, who have come to realise that optimal success for their purposes is achieved by galvanising the Government, without alienating the population more than necessary, to effect their goal. "

You thought that the lack of casualties meant it was probably a terrorist attack. When I asked, you said you thought it was Arab terrorists. I was the one who expanded that to mean 'al Qaeda-like', because offhand I can't think of an Arab terrorist attack in Britain at all. But your point seemed to be that Arab terrorists in the past were avoiding casualties. That still doesn't seem to fit the facts to me.

Now you seem to be saying that, rather than an accident, it must be terrorists who are using new tactics. Wouldn't the simpler conclusion be that it was an accident? Why leap to the conclusion that someone is doing something they haven't done before?

[Joe Chi Minh]

92. It is not a "leap" at all. Indeed, the choice of time, place, target,

etc, as well as arbitrary adaptation at their own discretion, are among the main advantages enjoyed by irregulars. Once they become rigid in their thinking and procedures they're "dead meat", so to speak. Did you read what Wikipedia said about Al Quaida and Osama Bin Laden's recent comment on blowing up fuel dumps?

I did tell you, also, that an explosives expert on the box stated that the report was too loud for a fuel explosion. Since it was apaprently heard in Holland, even as a layman, I suspect he might just have a point.

But maybe I'm wrong about their seeking to avoid civilian casualties - assuming that Arab terrorists were responsible. Maybe the timing was fortuitous and the layout, which would obviously have been designed to minimise casulaties in the event of any major accident, also contributed to the relatively moderate level of casualties and seriousness of the injuries. However, I also suggested reasons why they might have chosen to do avoid casualties in the UK this time, which you appear to discount, although without comment.

[muriel_volestrangler]

93. I suspect that 'expert' doesn't have a point at all

When the military want to make a really big explosion, without using nuclear weapons, they use a fuel-air bomb. The witnesses report seeing a cloud of vapour before the explosion. Everything points to a fuel explosion.

Terry Hines was one of five tanker drivers queuing for fuel at the site when he saw steam and vapour pouring from one of the tanks. “Suddenly all the electricity tripped out.” Mr Hines said. “A guy on the forecourt told us to get out as quickly as possible. We were walking away when there was a massive explosion.

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,2-1922078,00.html

But I do now see you saying it's not the MO of Arabic terrorists, but a variation from what they've done before. QED.

[Joe Chi Minh]

94. You may be right, anyway. I can see there's plausible

evidence on your side.

[Stella_Artois]

76. Its not a refinery

And accidents do happen. Flixborough was bigger than this, and happened without the help of any terrorist.

Its too early to say either way imo.

[NYdemocrat089]

72. If you look at the slide show on Yahoo.com you can see how big the

smoke cloud was.

Sorry...the link wouldn't work.

[Pert_UK]

74. This is about 5 miles from my house.....

It didn't wake me up, but only because I'd have a load of friends over for dinner and was sleeping VERY soundly after a lot of wine.

The sky has been very dark grey over in that direction all day and there has been a very nasty chemical smell in the air outside.

P.

[Joe Chi Minh]

77. My stepson in Kings Langley leapt out of bed,

thinking one of his daughters had falled down the stairs!!!! He'd also downed a few that evening.

[HR_Pufnstuf]

84. Wiki Current Event Page

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2005_Hemel_Hempstead_oil_depot_explosion

[fighttheevilempire]

90. Destroying the environment there...

so we don't have to fight it here at home.

wow. I'm just glad there werent more people around. That one building appears to be a parking garage, and it surely could have had more than 36 people in it. Sadly I suspect the oil co's there will pounce on the chance to extort the people just like they do here.

[muriel_volestrangler]

91. Not sure which picture you mean, but it's more likely a blown-out factory

I haven't heard of parking garages close by (the area around the depot is light industrial buildings, and then residential - garages would seem unlikely), but the damage to some buildings is huge - perhaps you saw the skeleton of a factory that had all the metal sheeting of its sides blown off.

So far, fuel prices don't seem to have risen in the UK. A few silly people did start panic buying on that morning, causing long queues at filling stations in that area, but all they did was waste their time waiting in the queues.