Even Supporters Doubt President as Issues Pile Up (NYT)

[Up2Late]

("I don't know if it's any one thing as much as it is everything," said Ms. Martin.... (I couldn't have said it better myself Ms. Martin!))

Even Supporters Doubt President as Issues Pile Up

By KATE ZERNIKE
Published: November 26, 2005

COLUMBUS, Ohio, Nov. 22 - Leesa Martin never considered President Bush a great leader, but she voted for him a year ago because she admired how he handled the terrorist attacks of 2001. Then came the past summer, when the death toll from the war in Iraq hit this state particularly hard: 16 marines from the same battalion killed in one week. She thought the federal government should have acted faster to help after Hurricane Katrina. She was baffled by the president's nomination of Harriet E. Miers, a woman she considered unqualified for the Supreme Court, and disappointed when he did not nominate another woman after Ms. Miers withdrew.

And she remains unsettled by questions about whether the White House leaked the name of a C.I.A. agent whose husband had accused the president of misleading the country about the intelligence that led to the war.

"I don't know if it's any one thing as much as it is everything," said Ms. Martin, 49, eating lunch at the North Market, on the edge of downtown Columbus. "It's kind of snowballed." Her concerns were echoed in more than 75 interviews here and across the country this week, helping to explain the slide in the president's approval and trustworthiness ratings in recent polls.

Many people who voted for Mr. Bush a year ago had trouble pinning their current discontent on any one thing. Many mentioned the hurricane and the indictment of a top aide to Vice President Dick Cheney, which some said raised doubts about the president's candor and his judgment. But there was a sense that something had veered off course in the last few months, and the war was the one constant. Over and over, even some of Mr. Bush's supporters raised comparisons with Vietnam.

<http://www.nytimes.com/2005/11/26/politics/26voices.html?ex=1290661200&en=65ac9ccdcfd37043&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss>
(more at link above)

[DavidDvorkin]

1. She admired how he handled the terrorist attacks of 2001

And how was that? He made some speeches and swaggered and imitated a movie cowboy. And for that people voted for him? For that they let him do such terrible harm to this country?

To hell with them.

[hippiechick]

2. After flying around and hiding for 2 days ...

100% Chickenshit since Day 1.

[Mad_Dem_X]

70. EXACTLY - it was DAYS before he even

made a proper speech to the American public! That's leadership?? I don't think so. He and Cheney ran and hid like pussies while NY and DC suffered. That's not what a TRUE president does!

[oneold1-4u]

There are too many

Voters today that don't know that on Dec.7 1941 that the then president declared war on Japan in just over 12 hours! The US wasn't even prepared but the faith in the strength and integrity of this nation said that it could be prepared in time and it was done. A great cost to the nation but it was covered by those who knew it had to be done! If every voter had known of real necessary decisions being made quickly in the past, could they have followed someone who took DAYS and then to only create a mess.
The one thing today that few voters know is that the "bin ladin family" had to set up all their million$ enterprises to continue operating before they exited the country for their personal safety!
They should have been incarcerated and property nationalized as Japanese were and they would have nailed osama, broke, ill or dead in less than a year!

[unpossibles]

93. I can see what you're saying

but I think it was wrong of us to have screwed over the lives and livelihoods of many Americans who were Japanese (or who just happened to look like they were). Gitmo is the same thing. Unconstitutionally locking up 'enemy combatants' out of fear.

But I will agree that Bush delayed far too long, and he still came out with the wrong decision.

[TankLV]

97. Exactly. Hence my moninker for him - "bunkerboy".

[Decline Of Day]

133. wow...

I'm glad that these idiots are finally realizing how screwed up things are... but I'm not sure how happy I really am about 80% of this new 'movement' being just a bunch of bandwagon groupies.

[MADem]

114. And when he finally scurried out of his rathole

They had to pose him next to a skinny old retired firefighter, so he wouldn't look too "small" with his big megaphone.

Please!! The guy is, and has always been, a photo op putz.

[pretzel4gore]

4. she admired how the pigmedia ran it by her

they cannot say it, but the media they trust despises and confounds them, and it's ugly to think grown adults are so very selfish they will not look outside their nasty little lives, not even to save their own kids from the results of what they would see, but don't, being too busy sukking the fox or cnn or network teat....

[Skittles]

5. the media absolutely fed the hero impression to the public

there should have been hard, hard questions raised about his appalling behavior before the attacks and even on the DAY of the attacks but the media was too bent on making a freaking hero out of the incompetent piece of shit

[Lorien]

43. The MSM has STILL never asked how the attacks were allowed to happen

No mainstream source has asked why the F15s didn't follow protocol that day. None dare to question why all the warnings went unheeded by THIS misadministration-among hundreds of other questions asked here and around the world. Bushco's positive ratings could be nil and I don't think we'd ever see a serious inquiry into how the attacks were allowed to happen, or how both elections were stolen. :grr:

[Al-CIAda]

53. ..and what of those 'exercises' on 9/11 that just happened to be

EXACTLY as the actual 'attack'? Why such strong denials of 'no one could have known', when mountainous evidence shows we not only knew, but some elements facilitated the 'attacks'.

[Soylent Green]

136. Delusions About Daddy

I think a critical mass of people is finally waking up from their denial (a primitive defense mechanism). As hideous as their denial was (is), it serves a protective function for them (of course, at the expense of all of Shrub & Co's victims).... Their denial involves the need to have utter faith in Shrub as the 'good, all-powerful daddy.' This belief, while not rooted in reality, shielded them from the harsh and terrifying truth- that their daddy is a murderous, criminal, dangerous A-hole. For more 9/11 investigations, I suggest people visit the following website: www.physics.byu.edu/research/energy/htm7.html

[Stargleamer]

6. It's amazing what a bullhorn can do. . .

I bet Rove wishes he wasn't hospitalized at the time and could have sent * to New Orleans with one.

[Eric J in MN]

32. Rove was hospitalized? (nt)

nt

[WhiteTara]

42. yes. with painful (but not painful enough)

kidney stones!

[Harper_is_Bush]

18. Pretty much, yes...

that's politics.

She admired his routine...his act, his swagger, his sombre persona as he "dealt" with 9/11. All the superficial stuff.

[Judi Lynn]

67. Tells you more about her than about Bush!

Anyone who's stable knew what they were looking at in Bush in 2000.

Welcome to D.U., Harper_is_Bush. :hi: :hi: :hi:

[AuntiBush]

36. Must Have Been All that Heavy Reading...

You know, the "Pet-Goat" book, and all. Rapid response on 9/11.

Sure. Yeah. Wow. :sarcasm:

[twaddler01]

72. He was concentrating hard on that book

Hey, maybe he learned a thing or two :eyes:

[Arugula Latte]

81. Hey, sitting on your ass as your country is attacked is hard work!

He stayed the course with "The Pet Goat." What fortitude! What bravery! What leadership! *swoon*

[No DUplicitous DUpe]

106. "Pet Goat"..9:18am...Pentagon hit by "something" at 9:41am..23mins

Great response to the attacks??? Please.

[samsingh]

49. his stupidity let the attacks happen

[Al-CIAda]

54. His stupidity was counted upon to facilitate the 'attacks'. n/t

[samsingh]

92. or far worse.

[Puglover]

79. I agree 100 percent.

Moronic tools.

[LibDemAlways]

84. I have a friend who actually said with a

straight face that he was sure that despite my anti-Bush "rhetoric," I was secretly glad that Bush was "at the helm" on 9/11.

I let him have it with both barrels.

Chimp's actions that day have never been properly scrutinized. Michael Moore gave a factual account of the initial non-response in Fahrenheit 911, but the corporate whores have never "gone there" and the completely bogus myth of chimp's leadership has persisted. Historians will one day set the record straight, and future generations will know how the chickenshit coward froze and then ran away while 3000 people perished.

[Patrick J Fitzgerald]

91. Morons...

is what pops into my head, but then I force myself to remember that we should lead the masses and not scoff at them.

I am thinking of usuing the RICO Act to unravel this criminal enterprise called BushCo.

http://patrickjfitzgerald.blogspot.com

[Chovexani]

110. Because she lives in fucking Columbus

Ask my neighbor who lost his daughter in the WTC how he thinks * handled it.

[Voltaire99]

113. Not exactly: she admired his way with mass murder

"...because she admired how he handled the terrorist attacks of 2001.

This is code for saying she approved of invading Afghanistan and Iraq. Most seated Democrats did, too. And barely a quarter of Americans had the sense and vision to oppose the slaughter.

I agree with your sentiment--"to hell with them"--but we have a problem. We will get no further as a society until we cease automatically giving our approval to the violence of empire.

Such easy, common violence is at the heart of why we are in trouble, and it makes little difference whether the warmaker in power is named Bush or Kerry: same shit, same result, same problems.

[hraka]

119. Just goes to show you CANNOT believe the mainstream media

They all crowed his accomplishments, then and now. Well, now they all (except Fox) apear to be wondering if they messed up. Has anyone noticed the subtle shift in the news lately? We're starting to hear from bush dissenters, even if it is presented only as opinion. Maybe in 2006, when we see the end of this failed attempt at hegemony, we'll see an end to these so-call "news" networks - or at least their commentators.

[RUMMYisFROSTED]

125. Clinton beat him back to Washington from another continent.

9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
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9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
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9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
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9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.
9-11 happened on Chimp's watch.

[ktowntennesseedem]

132. It does show that the photo-ops aren't working anymore.

Fool me once, shame on... uh...

(ah, you know!)

:crazy:

[Erika]

3. W's leadership downfall & insensitivity was shown in Katrina

W simply can't relate to the needy or ethnic groups in the U.S. Nor can he relate to women having their own identity and self-worth.

He's a rich elitist with blonde children and has a mother and wife whose only function acts as an extension to the husband.

Nor can he relate to our troops. He's never been there, done that, but he does know his buds like those oil profits.

[ashling]

7. After the fiasco of 2004

I heard one young mother of twins say that she liked Kerry on the issue, but she voted for Bush because he made her feel safer.

I thought my head was going to explode.

[waiting for hope]

11. My head did explode.....

and I'm still stuffing bits back in...My parents and my husband's mother (who is a democrat) voted for Bush for the very same reason, he made them feel safer.....do they feel any safer since Katrina? What if it was a dirty bomb that hit the city, what would have been done differently? Ah geez, Brownie! I like the striped tie better!

[Roy]

27. there was a mother in a focus group....

who said she was voting for Bush because he would keep the country safe. But when immediatlely asked who she would prefer in the fox hole with her son..... immediately replied John Kerry.

I think that was the jist of the exchange.

I knew right then the country was screwed, because out of about a dozen in the group, all but about 3 or 4 were giving BS excuses for leaning or voting for Bush.

[AuntiBush]

37. This is Rather Sad...

Some elderly folks I know sincerely wanted to vote for Kerry, urging me daily to do so. Of course, I knew Kerry was getting my vote. But, they'd constantly grab me while gardening, etc., with that daily reminder.

Days later when I asked them if they voted many hung their heads down-wards, or suddenly avoided me. I knew in my heart something was wrong.

All said the same thing. Their sons (typical redneck chickenhawk types) insisted they NOT vote for Kerry & vote for Bush. 1 woman in particular was so sad by this, she said her late husband's son actually came by early on voting day, drove her to the school to vote to MAKE SURE she did NOT vote for Kerry "and" she could no longer talk to me. Mind you, she was grabbing me up every chance she got, not vice-versa. I respect the elderly.

Sad. Real sad. These women detest * but there you have it. Their sons never did look at me quite the same after that. Glad I no longer live near any of them any longer.

[agincourt]

126. I don't know if words can express the way I feel,

This is one of the most revolting things I've heard on this board. Methinks some "typical redneck chickenhawk types" need Honor thy Father and Mother beat into them.

[beltanefauve]

83. All the media had to do

was put Bin Laden on the TV screen the week before the election and they got my folks' vote in Florida, The "safety" issue.:mad:

[neverforget]

8. how about this little bit of tripe from the article:

--snip--
"There is the notion of leadership and sticking with the plan, which I believe in," he said. "George Bush is clear and consistent. He made a tough decision to go to war - and others voted for it, too. And I think he's right: those people may be trying to rewrite history."
--snip--

Excuse me while I :puke: Some people have no critical thinking skills or are just intellectually lazy, like Bush. So if Bush leads us off of a cliff like lemmings, it would be a "tough decision" because he stuck to the plan while being "clear and consistent" by killing all of us.

[Up2Late]

10. That's the RW Hate Radio brainwashing in action.

If you ever are unfortunate enough to have to work with people who listen to Rush or Neil Boortz all day, they all start spewing that tripe, with a blank, glassy eyed stare.

I call them Pod People.

[calimary]

21. Yeah. But boy did he play that up all during the campaign. Remember

that line - "you may not agree with me, but at least you know where I stand"? I SWEAR to you, people will fall for that - over and over and over and over and over and over - simply because they like the sound and the feel of it. Their "instincts" are 100 percent WRONG, but they'll go for the nice packaging and merchandising anyway.

It's been far longer than just the last few weeks that noticeable majorities of Americans have been saying they think the country's headed in the wrong direction. Somehow, though, this NEVER seems to stick to him, even though he is the very reason why our country HAS careened off on the wrong track. It's his "leadership" and the smarmy, shitty, hypocritical, power-grabbing schmucks in the power-mad PNAC and the Xtian Wrong and other vermin he brought in with him from the cesspool outside. THEY came with him. And so do the madness and wreckage and serial disasters and hatemongering that they cause. The ridiculous James Watt once complained about the "wrong element" being brought into Washington DC by a Beach Boys concert. This "wrong element" is presently being brought to you by a frat boy miscreant.

[Dulcinea]

29. Or they just don't care. Or aren't paying attention.

I had a college roommate whose automatic response to everything was "I don't care. I don't want to hear it," if it didn't directly affect her or her boyfriend.

That's the mentality we're dealing with, folks. This is what we're fighting against. If it doesn't affect people in their daily lives, it's hard to get them worked up. Sad, but true.

[rodeodance]

34. yes. i know many people like that

[leftchick]

45. I have a sister like that

she says that all she has the capacity to think about is work and paying her bills. She doesn't have time to think about that "politics stuff". :eyes:

[PurpleChez]

116. I have friends who say they don't care about politics

because it doesn't affect them directly, but yet they are psychotically obsessed with anything even remotely related to sports, and they're proud of it. And when you mention this they'll tell you Sports Are Different. At least they're 'honest.'

[NYC]

118. Ask them if gas & oil prices affect them directly.

Maybe they'll see the connection between politics/politicians and their daily lives.

[PurpleChez]

120. Nah. I've tried. Maybe it would be different now,

since gas got SO STINKING EXPENSIVE, but as a rule they fall into that awful, awful male cliche whereby the one and only thing that sparks your concern or that can inspire an outward display of emotions is the performance of Their Team. Who cares what's going on in Iraq if the Redskins are on a roll?

[NYC]

124. I guess when it gets expensive enough,

they'll notice.

Too bad that people like that won't notice before things become bad for them, and unfortunately bad for us. We suffer the consequences of their ignorance.

[tabasco]

48. That's why we need universal military service.

People would start to care about wars and soldiers.

[butterfly77]

111. Their working on it ...

after bush's speech they will start setting the plan in motion,for the draft.

[Dervill Crow]

121. My son says, "You can't change anything, so why worry about it?"

Gods, I thought I raised him better than that.

So many people don't care about anything unless they feel it up close and personal. They just don't get it.

[Fridays Child]

9. Give us something to hang our teeth on?

That's a truly bizarre mixed metaphor.



Selena Smith, an advertising
agency director in Atlanta.
"The war is more important to
me now. What’s the plan? Give
us something to hang our teeth
on," she said.

[EFerrari]

12. These people should just hang their teeth up, already.

:rofl:

[Al-CIAda]

56. An Ad agency director at that! wow. I would not want to be a client. -n/t

[Catrina]

78. I think she wants some PR stuff to hang her teeth on

There haven't been any 'bullhorn' moments, or 'mission accomplished' shots to make her feel all warm and safe inside, lately. The PR budget must have run dry.

I remember one Hallow'een I went as Dolly Parton. I couldn't find any round balloons for 'enhancement' so I stuffed two, long ones under a sweater. They were so obviously false, sticking out about three feet, that they were comical, or so I thought. But guys I knew went WILD, even though they KNEW they were false.

PR people must already know that reality doesn't necessarily sell, that some people will overcome their better judgement if they are presented with an appealing image.

Whenever I see people falling for the phony cowboy routine, and I begin to ask 'how on earth can they fall for this' I think about those long balloons and the otherwise perfectly intelligent guys who fell for the fantasy that night! I wonder who they voted for in the last election?

[man4allcats]

13. "Prozac World"

Sometimes I think the entire Republican party either is or has been on long term Prozac therapy, and those who are now starting to finally wake up have either stopped taking the drug or have developed a tolerance. They "had trouble pinning their current discontent on any one thing?!" Come on! Fraudulent elections didn't bother them? The Constitution stripped of its original intent, and they don't find that disturbing? Hey, Bushies! Ever hear of separation of church and state? The blurring of that boundary doesn't bother you? How about this illegal, preemptive war? Any problems with that one? And you didn't think disaster preparedness should presuppose having qualified managers in important posts in the event of an emergency? It doesn't concern you that this administration has allowed wealthy industrialists to determine the course of environmental policy? It's okay that the government commits treason, during wartime no less, by exposing the identity of one of its own covert operatives? You don't note a certain inconsistency in our engaging in a "war on terror" while condoning torture ourselves? And last but certainly not least, the administration that pledged to bring respectability back into the White House is so scandal-ridden that it makes Bill and Monica look like just another episode of "All My Children," and this seems normal to you?

If some of these people are now at long last becoming conscious, I'm glad. I just don't understand how anybody could have sleep walked through the last five years! :wtf:

[Up2Late]

15. Excellent Rant! If you're right about the "...long term Prozac therapy..."

...they probably either had their Heath benefits switched to a different plan that didn't cover Prozac, or they have finally started to try to figure out this BS prescription drug "plan," and have picked a plan that doesn't cover their favorite meds.

[man4allcats]

20. Gee! You might be right. I hadn't thought of it like that.

Maybe they did just lose their preferred prescription drug coverage! ;-)

[jdadd]

128. Oxycontin!!

It causes Deafness too....Rush is proof of that.:crazy:

[ashling]

16. Just a minute now

Sometimes I think the entire Republican party either is or has been on long term Prozac therapy,

I haven't been able to afford Prozac in months because of this maladministrations shennanigans ... but it is the only thing I have found which helps with my depression and I am sure as hell a lot more effective in this fight when I am not so depressed that I can't even get out of bed!

[man4allcats]

19. Nothing against Prozac use of course...

I have occasionally considered it myself. I could just as easily have said Wellbutrin. Prozac was simply the first one that came to mind. I am glad that it helps you feel better and fight stronger against these evil enemies of America that currently control this once great nation. Best wishes always!

:-)

[ashling]

23. I have also used it

in combination with Wellbutrin. :)

"We'll fight till hell freezes over ... and then we'll fight on the ice"
-David Van Os, candidate for Texas Attorney General

[SpiralHawk]

31. Soma

Sit down, shut up, and eat your Soma.

Big BushCo loves you.

[Demeter]

41. Try B Vitamins--They Work for Me

I first started taking B vitamins (B-50 or B100, depending on what's on sale) when I started birth control pills and was always crying. They stopped the crying, and I felt more energy and will to live. You know you are taking enough when your urine is bright yellow. It's the B-6 and B-12 and folic acid that are the most helpful. Since they are water soluble, you would have a hard time overdosing. Do remember to drink enough water, though.

[melody]

59. Then you may not have had clinical depression

Situational depression (like you had) and clinical depression are two different illnesses. I also took the B vitamin therapy when I was in college and it launched me into a full scale manic/depressive episode (when I wasn't even manic depressive).

There is a reason we have SSRIs. They work better than anything else, short of a combination of meds and cognitive therapy.

[Demeter]

61. It Was A Nutritional Depression

I think I have a hard time getting enough B vitamins through diet. The birth control pill just depleted it that much faster. So supplemental vitamin therapy made a big difference. I never felt as well before. It doesn't hurt to try.

[melody]

64. It'll definitely help

Speaking of nutritional goals, however people who self-medicate for clinical depression get into trouble sometimes, so I made the point.

[Lorien]

44. Try this:

http://www.democraticunderground.com/discuss/duboard.php?az=show_mesg&forum=276&topic_id=1649&mesg_id=1649

in studies in significantly out performs Prozac and has no side effects, but no doctor is going to voluntarily suggest it to you because there's no longterm profits involved for him/ her. I've been using it for most of the past year, and the only relapse I had occurred when I forgot to use it for four days.

[sofa king]

28. Hear, hear!

I concur, and while the cynicism of your rant suggests that we already agree, I will go the further step of pointing out that there very likely is just one thing which is bothering many of these individuals, and that is that they are in the process of being exposed to scrutiny for all of the above actions, not unlike bugs are disturbed by being exposed to sunlight, fresh air, and potential predators when their sheltering rock is lifted away.

Any one or all of those things might be of concern to the bug, but it's the lifting of the rock that really did it.

The real problem is that these folks are living that ein volk sort of dream in which everything would have been just great if nobody had stepped in to foil their corrupt plan. And while it's all going straight to hell before our eyes, they will forever claim that the plan would have worked perfectly were it not for those who disbelieved in the plan--those meddling kids.

It already did work perfectly for the criminals who will profit from the enterprise, and the people who actually believe in the plan? Fuck 'em.

[dwp6577]

134. those meddling kids

rooby rooby roo!!!

It'll take a decade at least to repair the damage and our reputation as a country, but at least we didn't let the evil rethug-neocon-pnac bastards complete their mission...I'M HOPEFUL :)

[melody]

58. Prozac isn't what you think it is

If you'd ever had experience with SSRIs, you'd know that they don't dull or dampen anything -- it's exactly the opposite. I'd have killed myself without SSRIs many years ago.

[man4allcats]

62. Okay.

I was really just using the term metaphorically. Since people seem to have generally understood the reference, I must conclude that my usage was consistent with the consensus. Still, I was not offering and lay consensus should not offer medical/pharmacological opinions. As always, when you are in need of medical advice, consult your physician. I hope this caveat will resolve any further ambiguities.

:eyes:

[melody]

63. the problem is too many people make assumptions from such statements

I'm not quarreling with your right to make the assertions (so don't roll your eyes at me, young feller :) - I'm just adding the proviso.

There are lots of clinically depressed people who NEVER seek help because of the innocent assumptions of people who don't understand the condition with which they are dealing. Clinically depressed people are very receptive to and thus easily swayed by external opinion. Prozac is not a happy pill -- if anything, it's a wake up pill, which 30% of this country needs desperately right now.

[man4allcats]

68. Okay.

:eyes:

[melody]

69. lol

I'll match your :eyes: and raise you a :rofl: and a :yoiks:

[man4allcats]

77. Ha ha ha!

That's a good one! I don't think I can beat that hand. Take care!

:rofl:

[stepnw1f]

60. Kudos to you, anotheryellowdog

Great rant!

[Mad_Dem_X]

71. Great post!

Bush voters are like frickin' cult members who have stopped thinking for themselves.

[rambler_american]

90. Bush Voters

may very well turn out to be Diebold black boxes.

[Dervill Crow]

122. I take Prozac, and it has never made me like * any better. n/t

[man4allcats]

127. Actually I take Prozac, too

and LSD and mescaline and psilocybin and peyote and some others but I can't remember them all (psst...I think these last four named affect memory), and none of them have ever made me like * any better either. Let's hear it for fine pharmaceuticals!

:toast:

[Miss Chybil]

131. I wondering why there is such a high concentration of Prozac users

on this board? I wonder what the national percentage is. It seems odd so many people, out of so few, would be on this drug. My father used to take it and so did my sister. How many Americans are taking it? Very odd. You know pharmaceutical companies are hiring cheerleaders to sell doctors on writing certain prescriptions now? Not that I don't think Prozac has therapeutic value. I'm not a doctor. How would I know? But, it seems weird to me. I bet more people on this thread take Prozac than take Vitamin C.

[Starbucks Anarchist]

14. God, I want to punch these people.

I'd rather (reluctantly) hang around the ones who support * like he's the second coming.

The fairweather voters in this article fucked us over because they don't have the patience or brains to make an educated decision and stick with it.

[calimary]

17. Not nearly as satisfying a read as I'd expected from the title.

Too many of these man-on-the-street interviews revealed people who probably would turn back into staunch supporters if given half a chance. Their reasons for trusting him and voting for him - in 2004 - AWFUL. RIDICULOUS. DUMBFOUNDING. And so few of them care about the Plame affair? And ALL the corruption in tom delayland? :eyes:

It sounds to me as though the rovians have these people absolutely sussed. The instant any troops start coming home, they'll turn.

Just sad. FAR too many like the guy who conceded he didn't want to believe that bush lied about the war. That's simply it. They just don't want to believe he's as bad as he is. It's just damned hard to face the fact that you hitched your wagon to an anvil.

[babylonsister]

35. "hitched your wagon to an anvil." Love that!-too true! nt

[calimary]

74. Thanks. Sometimes I refer to them as having hitched their wagon to

a rock. Or is that Iraq? Pun intended. Either way, it qualifies as an anvil. Because he's going to be dead weight on his pirate party in no time at all, if indeed he hasn't become that already.

[yorkiemommie1]

22. ms. martin

it's called 'acting'. :shrug:

[truthisfreedom]

24. everything they did to suppress and stifle dissent was ill-planned... they

could never keep it up and now everything about their house of cards is falling around them uncontrollably... and it's only going to get worse. see what happens when bullies think they know how to run things?

[depakid]

25. "he admires the president for standing by what he says."

hmmm.

Think just maybe there might be a little lesson there for the Dems?

[TankLV]

98. Ouch! Callikng dicky durbin. dicky durbin, pick up the courtesy phone.

Your latest apology is overdue now!

[aquart]

26. 'in the last few months...'

has she been in a cave for five years?

[Up2Late]

73. I think the Hurricane Katrina debacle was a MAJOR wake-up call...

...for a LOT of these folks. We all knew that 9/11 was a result of *'s incompetence and being asleep at the switch, but these folks all blamed Clinton and gave * the benefit of a doubt, saying "...hey he's only been pResident for 9 months..."

Now that they see that all the "homeland security" money these criminals said would help make us MORE secure has NOT, and may have even made us LESS secure, Plus, the 4-6 days to get their sh*t together under * on BOTH 9/11 and Hurricane Katrina, they are finally seeing the bullhorn bravado and swagger was just that, and NOT good leadership.

[Boomer]

30. Americans on a downslide

The consistent them from these interviews is:

Lack of critical thinking

Lack of factual knowledge

Passive acceptance of style over substance

Anyone who has read GW's vitae would know that the man is arrogant, incompetent and has created his political career by hammering home lies over and over again until his opposition simply gives up trying to refute them.

Molly Ivins should be required reading for every dimwit who believed that George W. Bush would make them "safer."

[Mallove Fan 71]

40. Very well said!

I should like to remember these bullet points. The first three, especially, are very concise and will serve me well when I'm arguing about the dangers of propaganda. Thanks!

[madmark]

76. dead on critique of what is apparently 51% of the voting public

[fishnfla]

33. These people drive me fricking crazy

they were stupid enough to vote for the little shit in the first place, and we are supposed to care what they think now? Fuck that.

[uncertainty1999]

38. They got the government they deserved n/t

[devinsgram]

39. She admired how he read a book to schoolchildren?

Hell, anybody can do that.

[leftchick]

46. This is just infuriating! These people are morans....

unfuckingbelievabe...

<snip>

"We keep hearing about suicide bombers and casualties and never hear about any progress being made," said Dave Panici, 45, a railroad conductor from Bradley, Ill. "I don't see an end to it; it just seems relentless. I feel like our country is just staying afloat, just treading water instead of swimming toward somewhere."

Mr. Panici voted for President Bush in 2004, calling it "a vote for security." "Now that a year has passed, I haven't seen any improvement in Iraq," he said. "I don't feel that the world is a safer place."

<snip>

"I think people put their faith in Bush, hoping he would do the right thing," said Stacey Rosen, 38, a stay-at-home mother in Boca Raton, Fla., who said she voted for Mr. Bush but was "totally disappointed" in him now. "Everybody cannot believe that there hasn't been one shred of evidence of W.M.D. I think it goes to show how they tell us what they want to tell us."

Geeeee, ya think Stacy??? Ya think??? :banghead:

[Al-CIAda]

57. All RW talking points. The repeat, repeat, repeat tactic is very effective

[unpossibles]

94. I noticed that too!

The phrases are exactly correct - rewriting history, security, etc.

The worst part (for me) is that I thought the WMD lies (and many other things) were exposed before the election.

I am all for education over condemnation, but this sort of reaction is disturbing.

[Bush_Eats_Beef]

47. But...but...the Iraqi insurgents called to sign up for America's plan...

...didn't the NYT read that story yesterday?

:sarcasm:

[Maggie_May]

50. All I can say

is you idiots. Now I have to suffer for this ass hole. Some of us new from the beginning what this corrupt administration was all about. Then what really makes me want to smack these people they voted for him twice.

[sueh]

129. Yeah, yeah, what you said...

only thing that will redeem these people is to vote for Democrats in 06 so impeachement proceedings can begin.

[MasonJar]

51. The most despicable was the Pugs selling pictures of Stump

flying around in Air Force One while people who mattered died. That is right up there with Bush telling us to help by going out and spending money. How can any of this be admired?

[wxhoosier]

52. self delete

[Geo55]

55. The truly clueless,

They "had trouble pinning their current discontent on any one thing"

Yes , digesting the thought of " I voted TWICE for an asshole and his cronies who are destroying my country" , is a tough nut to crack.

[Piscis Austrinus]

135. ROFL - you hit that one on the head

....but it goes deeper than that. Need a few more raps on this one.

Has anyone ever wondered why the conservative revolution and the right-wing Christian revolution were both concurrent and so effective for over a decade?

The powers that be in conservative Christianity in America today have hitched their wagon to the Republican party. For quite some time now, a significant minority of American denominational clergy have been lodged in hierarchies which implicitly (and occasionally explicitly) require adherence to a specific political outlook. I'm thinking particularly of the Southern Baptist Convention, as well as some of the more conservative non-Baptist denominations and some Catholic dioceses.

Over time, as this culture has flourished in the various church leadership apparati, an entire generation of Christian leaders has had time (and money) to construct a network that ranges from the grass roots to the heights of power. A few, like Falwell and Robertson, have been at the forefront from the start. As they have built this structure, those who joined early on have risen behind them. Twenty-odd years ago, Ralph Reed was a Young Republican leader so vile that my own dear wife left the GOP because of the near-fascist ideals he espoused (and demanded that the Young Republicans adhere to). A hardline psychologist named James Dobson was just starting his own family-based organization in Colorado.

The first church scandals in the 1980's, which brought down the Bakkers and Swaggart, seem to me now to have been as much the result of infighting as of actual wrongdoing. There was a clear motivation for the other Christian leaders of that time to hang these souls out to dry, beyond the obvious fear of the taint of scandal: both commanded sizable followings and controlled considerable resources. Those flocks and money weren't going away. Before long, Jerry Falwell controlled Heritage USA.

Time passed, and the money and influence grew until the Republicans finally realized the political potential that could be realized by wooing (and seducing) this movement. By this time, those persons at the top of the movement were looking for bigger and richer mountains to climb. Robertson had run for President. Reed is still seeking to build a political career at the state level and beyond in Georgia. James Dobson enjoys a close relationship with the President himself. The $20 million churches weren't enough, apparently.

At the same time, something odd was happening to the non-mainstream conservative churches in parts of this country. The life was being squeezed out of the old-time, old-line conservative church by the very forces that had at first brought them such growth. The flock, like the leaders, wanted more. The leadership, concerned with the effects of any change that might lessen their influence (and decrease the wealth flooding into their coffers), resisted and became ever more dogmatic, even as a more freewheeling, individualistic, emotional form of conservative Christianity was oozing toward the surface. Pentecostal and "spirit-filled" non-denominational congregations were attracting many people who found themselves stifled in and daunted by the more traditional church setting.

Yet, the leaders of this same movement were themselves susceptible to the lure of power and fortune even as it grew rapidly. This reached a tipping point in the mid-to-late 1990's, when movements like the Dominionists were hatched. I've seen this particular movement close up, and folks, you should really look closely if you want a better understanding of why people are so unwilling to admit the mistake of supporting this president. When you have studied the revivals of Brownsville, Toronto and Kansas City, both the dangers and the crippling effects of too-unsuspecting faith are revealed in ways that range from the horrifying to the ridiculous. The recruitment of these believers to the support of a religious war was a simple matter, despite the astonishing transparency of the disguise.

Today, the Republicans, having successfully sued for the hands of two different Christian brides, are now caught in their own cleft stick: the claimed ordination of their platform as that of their God has been shown to be without substance in the light of the most basic Christian teachings, and at the same time, their power to deceive through their exploits - their false miracles, if you will - has been sapped through corruption, malfeasance, indifference to need, cowardice, deception, theft, and shameful acts. The charismatics cannot trumpet the trium
The problem is that nearly everyone who was born into, or converted into, a substantial minority of churches in this country is faced with a dual dilemma: by marrying their politics and their faith, they now find that the marriage is failing, and they have to preside over their own internal divorces. It is one thing to be a claimant in a divorce. It is quite another to judge in a divorce case: a judge must weigh evidence, consider arguments and facts carefully and in context, and render the best possible decision. This sounds fairly straightforward, but it must be remembered that many, many conservative Christians lack either the intellect or the fortitude (or both) to confront the irreconcilable differences in the ideals they embrace as the foundation for their lives and beliefs.

This is why 30% of the population of this country still supports George W. Bush. It is also, however, why the rest are growing increasingly opposed to him and all who still support him. Once the split is accomplished, whether individually or collectively, the healing can begin at last. I would not be surprised to find that conservative churches have reached their zenith in power, or that they will begin to fade in the years (maybe decades) to come. Many who are departing now will probably be long and slow in returning, because for the leadership of both Republicans and the clergy, it is a (politically) mortal sin to confess a mistake. As long as this principle holds sway, there will be those high and low who cannot - or will not - face it. However, there is this hope: as the decay continues, more and more of those who leave will have been so confronted, and appalled by the rot that they will not return.

Take heart, friends; the conservative movement is dying at last. For now.

Sorry for the long essay!

Peace
PsA

[wordpix2]

65. dupe and delete.

[wordpix2]

66. At a recent wedding I was placed at a table full of AEI higher ups and

other conservatives and they ALL said they thought BushCo was fucking up. Mainly, they were concerned about the huge debt and deficit spending for war.

I was heartened that the Repugs are turning against Chimp brain.

[Up2Late]

75. AEI is mainly Libertarians, they just sound like ReThugs, and...

...often vote with them, until the Rethugs start passing laws like the USA PATRIOT Act and generally making more Laws and bigger Government.

I was SHOCKED in 2000 when a Libertarian friend of mine, a 41 year old Delta Airlines Machinist who said he was thinking about retiring in a few years because he was doing so well in the stock market (with mostly Delta Airlines stock and options), who said that he, "...really couldn't see much difference between Bush and Gore and their policies..."

I haven't seen him around for a long time now, I'd love to hear what he thinks about Bush now.

[Crunchy Frog]

102. Actually, AEI is pretty much neocon to the core.

But these people are intellectuals, and can ultimately recognize stupidity and complete incompetence when they see it. They're upset because Bush's incompetence is threatening the enactment of their agenda.

[globalvillage]

80. This was picked up in my paper today

Pittsburgh Post-Gazette.
Too little, too late. But it's good to see it in print, nonetheless.

[area51]

82. "... she admired how he handled the terrorist attacks of 2001."

:wtf:

Lady, the mofo Bush ran away!

Jeebus, people's blindness is amazing. Too bad there's not a drug to cure it.

[batmansmom]

85. Actually, he froze...

He sat there reading My Pet Goat.

He claimed to have seen the first plane hit the first tower, on television, before he entered the schoolroom.

He is quoted as having said that when he saw the impact, he thought that was one bad pilot.

What's wrong with this picture is the root of the travesty.

He could not have seen the first plane strike the WTC1 because there was no live coverage of that event.

[Up2Late]

89. Funny thing is, he repeated that lie about seeing the first Jet...

...and then they posted it to the WH website! Not sure if it's still there though.

Welcome to DU batmansmom :toast:

[rpannier]

86. I noticed there are still those morons who point to his

unswerving leadership. Phrases like "He doesn't backdown" etc.
We're back to..."scrubbie is driving a car that is heading for the edge of a cliff, but he refuses to change course or dtop." Thta's their idea of leadership.

[cyr330]

87. Stupid Asshole

She's only just now beginning to doubt dumb fuck? What planet has she been living on? She voted for him the second time, for Christ's sake. Poor dumbshit has no excuse. At least that's one of his supporters his handlers can no longer count on. . . .

[allisonthegreat]

88. so many i am losing count...n/t

[Dances with Cats]

95. Problem is!

That it is too late. They are entrenched. The Iraq War will continue. Alito will sail through. And we are still fucked.

[MellowOne]

96. Many people voted for **

Because they felt safer with him. But few remember his refusal to cooperate with a 9/11 investigation. It took four widows of victims to get a full investigation started. But in his SOU sppech to sell the war, he made a definite connection between Iraq and 9/11. Yeah, I feel safer too.

[emald]

99. I find it incredible

that there are people out there who actually saw something in the kennebunkport cowboy. This man is AWOL, a deserter. He has cost taxpayers in texas dozens of millions of dollars with cheats and insider trading. All this well before he became front man for corporate america. Since then he has killed 10's of thousands of people with his daddy hate war and enriched the rich at the expense of the poor. Yeah, this guy is a class act. Something to be emulated, if you desire the destruction of mankind.
IMPEACH NOW!

[NJCher]

130. it is phenomenal, isn't it?

And part of the fault is our election system, which is "winner take all."

With this many uninformed, naive people in the voting populace, we need the protection that an instant runoff voting system would afford. Such systems have been in place in many parts of our country and need to be in place nationally.

http://www.instantrunoff.com/




Cher

[mopinko]

100. it's music to my ears. quit crying, we are winning.

be gracious winners. pat yourselves on the back. the truth is leaking out. i take a little credit, you all should, too.

[babsbunny]

101. Maybe this Lady who Admires Bush

should look at www.reopen911.org

[Tight_rope]

103. So Ms Martin admires presidents who read "My Pet Goat" while the

US is under attack. I don't know about you all but I think Ms. Martin's judgment sucks.:spank:

Reminds me of a conversation I had with a lady at the nail shop in 2002 just after the war start. She told me she voted for Bush because she thought he was good looking (Which proved to me what I had heard in some media poll, "That most women tend to vote for a candidate bases on their physical appearance"). However, the lady at the nail shop did say that she thought, that something about Bush's mouth looked funny. She didn't quiet know what it was that disturbed her about his lips. Years later I wish I could run into that lady at the nail shop and ask her could it be that her problem with Bush's lips was that every time he parted them all that came out were lies. Oh how I wish I could run into that dumbass again. :evilgrin:

[Crunchy Frog]

104. These people have such short attention spans.

They "admire the president for standing by what he says" and for "not backing down", and they don't even remember that he vowed to get Osama "dead or alive" over 4 years ago. :eyes:

[proud2BlibKansan]

105. Give them all one of these:

[Up2Late]

107. I love it, problem is, down here in Georgia, any remaining * supporters...

...would probably think that the sticker was "pornographic".

Hey! It says Em-Bare-Assed! Vrooomm!

[proud2BlibKansan]

108. I am in Kansas

and I hear ya.

[savemefromdumbya]

109. God, if she only knew who really did organize the 9/11 attacks!

the worms will surface

[MagnumDB]

112. All This Means Is...

All this means is that the Bush supporters will vote for another Republican president, hoping that he will do better than Bush.

Just because they are turning against Bush doesn't mean they are turning against the Republican party. They don't think that way.

[benny05]

115. I Tend to Agree w/You

And so what if their support is waning? They had an opportunity to fire the SOB and his ilk a year ago; think they can do it now?

[Voltaire99]

117. T-t-talkin' 'bout my (crappy) generation...

I'm roughly the same age as those interviewed by the Times. I recognize them: my shallow, complacent generation.

Not a one speaks to the moral blight unleashed by our nation upon Iraq. Each offers facile arguments for the war (look, an Iraqi constitution!) or only mildly against ("what's the plan?").

What do we learn? Advertising types want a more coherent message about the war; an elementary school principal wants some more "information" from Bush so he can have "closure"; an anti-Bush salesman doesn't want us to "run away too fast."

Smart enough to know the jig is up for Bush, they wallow in childish confusion and petulance: one likes to see him squirm (but then guiltily reminds herself that "we're all in this together"). Others grouse over a lack of WMDs, a 38-year old Florida mom declaring that this proves "they"--elites--lie.

For these people, it's all a reality TV show. The technologist is content to see the war go on because he sees soldiers in the press saying they "feel what they're doing is important," as if that mattered. These Stepford Husbands and Wives are in need: the lies to which they turn for comfort simply aren't delivering any more. Won't someone please tell them some new ones?

The Times knows there's serious cultural trouble afoot. It's gone beyond the rumbling stage: polls measure huge disaffection with politics (not only with Bush, but understandably with spineless Dems, too) and a declining market for the mush sold by media fabulists that serves those pols (profits down at NYT by over 50% this year).

So this article is the first in many attempts that will try to restore confidence in the system. Bush may have to be voted off the island, but the great march of empire must go on. One thing our elites know deep in their black hearts: you can't run this racket without having moms and school principles on your side.

[Carolab]

123. Give us something to hang our teeth on?

That's an Advertising Agency principal?

Wow, she can't even come up with an appropriate metaphor...no wonder she voted for *.

Is it just me, or do these people come across as phenomenally stupid?

[Up2Late]

137. Not just you, I reached that conclusion quite a while ago...

...these are the folks in the 70-80 I.Q. range who are dragging down the average score.