(UK) Poll: Rape is women's fault

[jefferson_dem]

Poll: Rape is women's fault
21/11/2005 18:03 - (SA)

London - A British poll, described as "shocking" by equal-rights campaigners, has found that more than a third of people believe women are to blame for being raped if they behave flirtatiously, wear sexy clothes or get drunk.

The IMC survey, commissioned by Amnesty International, also provided a "sobering insight" into why the conviction rates for rape prosecutions at jury trials are falling, despite stricter laws, said campaigners.

Although the number of rapes reported to the police in Britain has gone up in recent years, the number of convictions has stayed constant, at just more than 5% of cases.

According to the poll, 34% of those asked thought a woman was "partially" or "totally" responsible for being raped if she behaved in a "flirtatious manner".

More than a quarter also thought a woman was "at least partly responsible" for being raped if she wore sexy or revealing clothing, or was drunk.

<SNIP>

http://www.news24.com/News24/World/News/0,,2-10-1462_1838061,00.html

[Sandpiper]

1. Disgusting

There's just no other word for it.

[HereSince1628]

2. I had no idea the conviction rate for rape was so low...

just 5%. No wonder women feel going to court is futile. Holy cow.

Some DU'er must know...Are US numbers similar?

[leftstreet]

3. 34% ? Then that means a higher percentage disagree?

Poll makes no sense.

[jefferson_dem]

6. The point is that 1/3 of respondents say that women are to blame.

Is it not surprising ...and sad... that ONLY two-thirds DO NOT blame women for these acts of sickness and aggression? The headline appropriately reflects that.

[leftstreet]

8. Disingenuous attempt to flat out say women deserve to be raped.

That paper/poll sucks!

[Journeyman]

11. Good shot! You got that messenger right between the eyes!. . .

Now how do you address the realities explored in the poll?. . .

[leftstreet]

12. The reality is that a couple decades ago that 34% would have been 50%

Poll actually shows attitudes are IMPROVING!

[jefferson_dem]

19. Where do you get that 50% number? I only see the one data point here

in this poll. It was commissioned by Amnesty International, by the way.

Whatever the case, if THIS is improvement, i want no part of it.

[leftstreet]

20. You managed to find this poll, I'm sure you can find another.

Although, a 20 yr old poll probably wouldn't qualify as "Latest Breaking News."

:eyes:

[jefferson_dem]

30. Um. No. You are the one who called the 34% number "progress".

I'll let you scour for evidence to back up that claim.

[leftstreet]

40. It is progress. You'll just have to trust me.

[RedCloud]

125. I believe you are the victim of a few trigger happy posters.

Rape is a crime. No one is saying it is not. However the beastly attitude that women provoke their own rape is changing and if someone needs proof of this over the decades then they really do not have a keen sense of social attitudes.

Also the title of this thread is misleading as it suggests the majority define rape as induced by women.

[muriel_volestrangler]

70. The detailed poll data is also shown by age

and it shows the over 55s, especially the over 65s, are more likely to blame the woman (over 50% of them in some of the situations). So it's quite possible that the poll would have been worse 20 years ago. See post #66 for the link to the detailed data.

[regnaD kciN]

67. The way it's presented is messed-up...

If 34% (or less) responding in the affirmative means that "this is what people think," then it logically follows that current polls are showing public approval of Bush, because his 37% rating is even higher.

:wtf:

[sinkingfeeling]

10. Wonder what percentage of that 1/3 was male?

[0rganism]

21. and religious? (although the UK is much less so than the USA)

[Zynx]

87. There aren't that many religious people in the UK.

Also, I doubt we would see a number much higher than that here. Rape is a universally reviled crime.

[muriel_volestrangler]

66. How opinion divides according to sex:

The woman is totally or partially responsible if:

                           Men  Women
Drunk                      30%  30%
Flirtacious                38%  31%
Failed to say 'no' clearly 40%  34%
Wearing sexy clothing      27%  24%
Has many sexual partners   24%  21%
Alone in a dangerous area  21%  23%

http://www.icmresearch.co.uk/reviews/2005/Amnesty%20International%20-%20Sexual%20abuse/OmAmnesty.pdf

There are also divisions according to age, social class and region. By region is fairly even, except Northern Ireland is slightly less likely to blame the woman (it may or may not be notable that it's more religious than other regions of the UK); by social class is also fairly even, though the 'middle' are least likely to blame, then 'professionals', then 'unskilled'.

In age, the over 65s are far more likely to blame the woman. In some of the categories, over half of them blame the woman at least in part. The 55-64 range also blames them more than average; 18-24 about average, and 25-54 less than average.

The really notable difference is the over 65s. At least that should mean the attitude should die out. Whether the 18-24 year olds will change when they know some people it's happened to, I don't know - I hope something will change their minds.

[regnaD kciN]

111. That's the surprising part, IMHO...

...that there's relatively little difference between men and women in the polling results.

Had it been more like 49% of men and 19% of women who thought the victim was partly responsible, I wouldn't have been surprised. Disgusted and embarrassed, yes, but not surprised. But it seems like there's not that much difference between the two groups. And the place where the percentage of men is the highest (failure to say "no" clearly) is probably so because it's the one where most men might feel it might be of the most danger to them -- I think a lot of men have a paranoid fantasy about having sex with an apparently-consenting partner, only to have the latter regret her actions the next morning and rationalize away her guilt by claiming it was date-rape. (NOTE: I'm not saying that it's a situation that happens often in the real world; but I think many guys worry that it could happen to them.)

The other big unanswered question in this poll is what is meant by "partially responsible." Does it mean that the man is not legally guilty? I'm not sure. I think it's quite possible for one to be an innocent victim of a crime while still having some personal, but not legal, fault for acting stupidly and laying oneself open to being victimized. For example, to walk through a notorious high-crime area in the middle of the night isn't very smart, and even more so if one is flashing signs of wealth in the process. One might say that such a person wasn't behaving very intelligently or with proper caution; if one was less-than-tactful, one might even say that the victim "was asking to be robbed." But does that mean that the mugger shouldn't be brought to justice? Would that be enough of an excuse for the criminal to be released, or to at least get a reduced sentence? I don't think there's anyone in the world who would claim that the victim's carelessness reduces the culpability of the criminal in that case. So it is here -- I'm not convinced that "partial responsibility," as set forth in this poll, implies that a rapist in any of these circumstances should be treated with leniency, or have the victim's actions be treated as mitigating circumstances. So, in essence, the poll tells us a lot less than it would seem to on the face of it.

[azmouse]

4. Rape would be taken more seriously

if men were raped as often as women.

[Megahurtz]

61. Yeah and I suppose that when men are raped

they are "asking for it" too.
Must be that "seductive way" that they dress!:eyes:

[unpossibles]

5. that is depressing

I hate those moments when you run into something that dispells your belief that people are evolving socially and mentally.

[izzie]

7. I some times think women just do not think

Well would any women or girl go walking alone at night if she thought she may be raped? I grew up in a time that you watch what you were doing. You can hardly think you will be safe just because you say no. Women may not be to blame as they do not rape but they sure put them selfs in harms way at times. :think:

[Kool Kitty]

9. Sometimes, we women have no choice.

I walk to and from work most nights. If my husband is not working, then I get a ride. If he is, then I don't get a ride. I would rather not be walking out alone at night, but I really don't have a choice.

[jefferson_dem]

14. I believe that's one thing that men (like me) will never understand --

the genuine physical risk women assume every time they travel around, especially alone and at night.

Guys, do you ever feel compelled to have your car keys ready, in hand, when leaving the mall, before stepping into a dark parking lot?

[LostinVA]

27. Thanks, Jefferson -- you get it, just like my Dad does

Every time you go out at night, you have the fear. And when you're in a parking garage, or you hear a noise at night, or you're in the stacks of a library, or when you know you can't go jogging tonight because your running buddy cancels. or when you wish you could go for a hike in the woods or ride your bike alone or camp or backpack or fish or anything alone in an isolated area, or why you don't even sleep with your second-story windows open, or like letting the dog out at night, or get fucking TERRIFIED when you come home alone and a truckful of guys drives by and says things and watches you enter your home... alone. It is the way we live. We have to. Think about having to live your life like that... we do. It's NORMAL for us. And even with that, we get raped. And then have assholes blame it on us. So screw everyone on the other thread blaming it on women, especially all of those mythical drunk girls who seduce guys. Quit downloading pron and watching College F*ckfest or C*m Fiesta. All women can't wait to have you screw them, rape is not a sexual fantasy come alive. That isn't real life.

Sorry for the rant -- but that other thread enraged me. IT IS 2005!

[lakemonster11]

60. I agree---most women think about their safety

in an entirely different way than most men.

Last year, I was living with one other girl and two guys in a house in a fairly sketchy area of the city.

My female housemate and I would always lock the door, especially if we were home. One of our male housemates, on the other hand, would leave the door unlocked if he were home and didn't understand our concerns about it. He would say something like, "No one's going to just walk in the front door---they can see that I'm sitting here through the window." Now, my female friend and I were thinking, "Someone who might not otherwise break in might do so if they see us through the window." He saw himself as a deterrent; we saw ourselves as bait.

He would also lecture us about locking the chain (which we only did late at night), because it meant that, if there wasn't someone downstairs to let him in, he would have to walk around to the back door. He unscrewed it from the wall and threw it away.

It wasn't until someone walked right though our unlocked door in the middle of the night and took a laptop that he conceded that we should keep the door locked whenever we were home. Even then he was cynical about our concerns.

[leftstreet]

95. You need to take some assertiveness training!

:)

Do some kick-boxing. Get some pepper spray. Whatever it takes.

Millions of women DO NOT live with the fear you're describing! The DOJ reports that violent crime at the hands of strangers is LOWER than it's been since 1973. And do you not realize that a woman's chance of being raped by a stranger is LESS than by a person known to her?

Women of all ages are "out there" enjoying life and they WILL NOT let stupid "polls" or scare tactics chase them back indoors!

[leftstreet]

38. LOL! So you'd feel safe in an urban crime area around 3:00am?

Wow. Since when did a penis become kevlar?

:rofl:

[LostinVA]

42. Jefferson is right on -- I don't get the ROTFLMAO?

Except for certain situations, most men don't feel that fear. Ask 100 men what they think when they walk from Best Buy to their car at 9:00 PM. Most would be like, huh? ASk 100 women, and most will say they had their keys ready, their eyes alert, and got in their car ASAP.

[leftstreet]

44. Jefferson would ask you for a "poll" on those numbers

}(

[jefferson_dem]

50. You have just revealed yourself as you are...for all to see. Bye. n/t

[leftstreet]

52. I've been "outed" for being logical?

:shrug:

[Zhade]

63. I have, yeah.

But it's not for fear of getting raped, but assaulted, usually for my "mincing" behavior (which is so slight that you'd have to be actively looking for it).

[Lydia Leftcoast]

91. And no one would blame a man who was held up at gunpoint

They wouldn't say, "He shouldn't have been walking around at night," or "He shouldn't have been carrying money" or "He shouldn't have given money away previously in his life."

[jefferson_dem]

22. dupe.

sorry.

[CTyankee]

18. "He was jingling coins in his pockets" so I had to

mug him!

[Joe Chi Minh]

28. You've hit the nail on the head.

The fault of young women who flaunt their assets beyond a certain level, is that of recklessness. It is simply a fact of life, which they must know, but refuse to acknowledge in their behavior, that there are a lot of men who are rapists or potential rapists, who will tell themselves, "they are asking for it". The fact that they are certainly not, is utterly irrelevant to that reality, evil as it is.

And hard-core pornography sure wouldn't be a factor for reducing the prison population. But as long as the big guys in the multi-billion dollar pornography industry are coining it, and paying into party funds, the tax-payer and the victim of sexual violence can continue to pay the price. From simple pragmatism, governments should levy a special tax on pornographers, to pay for the upkeep of the prisons and the building of new ones.

To broaden this issue somewhat, however culturally acceptable it might be in political circles to cause crime to grow and grow, as a result of extremely unjust economic policies, driving a significant number of poorer people to desperate acts, it is arguable that the actions of legislators, judges and the authorities in charge of secure mental institutions, produce the same net effect as the actions of organized-crime bosses; the lethal ministrations of whose enforcers, however, are more targeted and less broadly anti-social. I'm not exactly equating judges or mental health administrators with mafia capos, though I don't automatically exclude the legislators from such moral equivalence.

[WindRavenX]

101. that does not in any way make it ok for women to be raped

Even if a woman is drunk, dressed provocatively, or walking alone, that never makes rape any less worse or of a crime.

[salin]

103. I don't have a garage - I have to walk a couple hundred feet in the dark

between my car and my house each night when I come home. I try to always be alert, but this situation can not be avoided. Your post seems to suggest that were I to be attacked in that situation, because I come home alone at night and have to walk from the car to the house, that I would be somewhat culpable?

Are we to live our entire waking day in fear and alertness - avoiding every corner on every hallway in our places of work, b/c someone might lurk there?

I am a rape survivor, and while I am alert, I chose not to live in fear or to stop living altogether - but if one really were to take your words too heed (tht it is our job to be ever vigilant per dangers) than one ought not only be concerned about walking at night (which per my description above is not always avoidable), but do a risk assessment on every action. Is there a bush where someone could hide between place a and b... than don't walk that way (when in grad school a rapist in the area attacked women in broad daylight.... from behind bushes right outside the front doors of places of business.)

If we were to take all of this risk analysis serious, and there really is risk all over the place, we "risk" concluding that perhaps burkas aren't such a bad idea. :sarcasm:

[okieinpain]

107. I agree, I have two young daughters. I keep telling them get your

ass off the street at night. but no they stay out there. no that doesn't mean they deserve to be raped. I'm just saying that we still live in a fucking jungle like it or not that's what it is. And you better damn well believe there are predictors out there. in one of the post someone said that men don't keep there car keys in their hands when they are walking to their car. I do and I'm a big black mofo, you see a kid with a gun looking for a little fun could give a shit less about me being big and black.

I'm not trying to demean women. I don't think any women deserves to be raped. but there are bad people out there, male and female, old and young, black, white, red, yellow, and brown. something that sticks with me is joke told by a comic whose name eludes me. but she said that her and her husband had been to a nice show, had a great dinner, and that the night was beautiful. she says that her husbands looks at her and says, hey lets do down to the waterfront and take a stroll. she said she looked him dead in the eye and said honey have you lost your fucking mind, no one is wanting to make a deposit in your vagina.

sorry if that offends anyone, but I just don't understand the decisions some of us make at times.

[Porcupine]

108. I also have two daughters......learning jujitsu and other nasties

because they are going to want to go out with their friends at night in my beautiful college town. They can huff an puff about their rights all they want but daddy is buying them pepper spray and ninja sticks.

I trust other drivers to behave but I ALWAYS fasten my seat belt. It is not contradictory to believe my daughters have the right to wear what they want and say NO at the very last second. It is also prudent to teach them to enforce their rights.

[okieinpain]

109. thank you, I believe that's all the poll was trying to say. of course

I could be wrong. but folks have got to start making wise decisions, we just had a guy here in oklahoma get car jacked for trying to help a lady on the highway. he pulls over to help her and 2 guys jump out of her car and beat him up on the highway, and take his car. she went with them so more then likly she was their bait.

My second oldest child came home the other day and told me and my wife that she saw a lady walking with two small child and that the lady was crying. she said that she stopped and give the lady a ride to a home in a not so go side of town. We both told her that it was very nice for her to care, but it was also very stupid.

[skygazer]

124. I refuse to live in fear

I refuse to limit what I do because there are people out there who may not recognize my right to do just that.

I refuse to allow criminals to dictate how I live my life.

I refuse to accept that because I am a woman, I have limited freedoms.


Were I to stay cloistered in my house, cowering behind my locked door and pulled shades, I could be raped and murdered also. But I would be living half a life and I refuse to do that.

"... they sure put them selfs in harms way at times." In other words, it's their own damn fault. :banghead:

I refuse to accept that also.

[caspar]

128. blaming the victim

Perhaps we should sign up for escorts anytime we need to go out at night. Or maybe we should just accept that we're junior people, not entitled to the rights any adult should have.

[Luna_Chick]

13. Ok, so the next time some rich slob gets robbed..

oh, what a pity, you must've asked for it, wearing that expensive watch and daring to wear Armani in public. You invited that, stop complaining. Oh, and sit back and enjoy it, too.

[stanwyck]

15. Hell, we've got rape apologists right here

at DU. Read the other thread on this same topic. Some of our good ole boys think the women don't do enough to protect themselves. See...it's the women. Not the men.
Sheesh. Who would have thought DUers would have such tiny minds.
I'm disheartened with my fellow DUers today. Well, some of them.

[leftstreet]

16. AMEN!

[superconnected]

24. sick and sad.

and what a group of pathetic males that would think that way.

[LostinVA]

25. And that rape is "natural" and "normal," esp. when teenage boys

do it. It's illegal, so we shouldn't do it, but it's not something bad. Oh... and those teenage boys just rape away, 'cause dolphins do it.

And, if you're dumb and slutty enough to get drunk, pass out, and raped... babe! It's YOUR fault! You're just regretted having sex you don't remember, and you'll try to unfairly accuse the poor, innocent boy of rape.

Seriously, some of the posters on the other thread are stupid and sickening. The huge majority of women would never, ever falsely accuse a man of rape -- there's too much shame and societal stigma in it for them. Read "Without Reservation," about pro athletes and how they weasel out of this very thing, with these very excuses. People, some of these men you know "falsely" accused of date rape probably weren't falsely accused. People we think we know, we don't always know.

It is 2005, right? In America? On DU?

[MountainLaurel]

83. Even "progressives" can be misogynists

Hang around here enough and it gets downright depressing.

[leftstreet]

97. This was the first I'd seen it on DU.

Ick factor = high

[Triana]

17. This is *%@^&@^ Disgusting

UNbelieveable. What a mysogenist society we all live in (Britain and even moreso, the US)...

[jefferson_dem]

23. If you ever doubted how sick those freeper fucks really are, check it ->

Just a sampling of the inhumanity from the freeper cesspool ->

To: Millee
Victimology.

Ignore it.



3 posted on 11/21/2005 12:44:09 PM PST by SteveMcKing ("I was born a Democrat. I expect I'll be a Democrat the day I leave this earth." -Zell Miller '04)
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: Millee
"More than a quarter also thought a woman was "at least partly responsible" for being raped if she wore sexy or revealing clothing, or was drunk. "

While rape is never acceptable, how often do people wake up with regrets over the night before and call it "date rape"?



4 posted on 11/21/2005 12:44:49 PM PST by Fierce Allegiance
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To: Millee
Well, there are alot more mulsims in the UK nowadays...

7 posted on 11/21/2005 12:45:13 PM PST by 2banana (My common ground with terrorists - They want to die for Islam, and we want to kill them.)
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To: Millee
100% muslims think rape is an allah-given right.



8 posted on 11/21/2005 12:45:32 PM PST by TexasCajun
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To: 2banana
Well, there are alot more mulsims in the UK nowadays...
My thoughts exactly. According to Muslims Western women may as well be wearing signs that say, RAPE ME.


15 posted on 11/21/2005 12:47:43 PM PST by BunnySlippers
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--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

To: Millee
Too many cried wolf
And now those chickens are coming home to roost...



16 posted on 11/21/2005 12:48:47 PM PST by joesnuffy (A camel once bit my sister...necessitating her untimely death..-Mullet Omar)
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To: Millee
Confucious said: "no such thing as rape, woman can run faster with dress up than man can with pants down"!



21 posted on 11/21/2005 12:51:03 PM PST by VOYAGER (M<)
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To: Millee
Just another symptom of a world in moral decline. We have a symptom over here that goes by the name of liberalism.



33 posted on 11/21/2005 12:58:11 PM PST by GeneralStorm (Currently residing in the "NO TIN ZONE")
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To: buffyt
you'll probably flame me for this, but in some cases, you can look at the rape as partially the woman's fault. if it is forcible, then almost never- but a few women have the fantasy of being raped, and if you start telling people that its a fantasy, don't be surprised if it happens. statutory and date rape are the issues i see as cases that can be borderline. a 16 year old girl can sometimes be very adamant that she wants sex, but i would never say its more than partially her fault, as the man should know its illegal- tho there are cases where the man doesn't know how old she is, and should not be fully to blame.
in date rape, basically, if she doesn't make it obvious that she doesn't want it, she should have to take part of the blame.



37 posted on 11/21/2005 1:01:56 PM PST by absolootezer0 ("My God, why have you forsaken us.. no wait, its the liberals that have forsaken you... my bad")
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To: Millee
It is extremely politically incorrect to even hint that immodest, flirtatious or lewd behavior on the part of a woman might incite some low-life to undertake actions he might not otherwise contemplate.

43 posted on 11/21/2005 1:07:08 PM PST by scory
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http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-news/1526262/posts

[leftstreet]

26. I've never doubted it, but thanks for "sharing."

[Beaverhausen]

72. oh my god...I thought I had seen everything

then I see this. What a bunch of assholes.

[Dark]

29. I don't agree with the flirting or the sexy clothing belief, but I do

agree with the drunk one.

If you decide to get drunk, then you are still responsible for your actions.

Ask DUI people.

I'm not saying that it's their fault if someone messes with their drink. Only when they decide to order one too many.

[superconnected]

32. so the person taking advantage of you if you get drunk is A okay

What a sick statement you just made.

It is NOT okay to rape a woman(or anyone else) under any circumstances.

Lots of people get drunk, men and women. Many very rarily. They still do not deserve to be raped.

[shanti]

36. thank you!!!!

i am sickened by this also! :mad:

[Dark]

43. I never said it's okay to rape someone, or that they deserve it.

I just said that if someone is stupid enough to get wildly plastered, then they should realize that that is a danger of being drunk.

Adults should know better than to get trashed with complete strangers, and then pass out, or get in their car.

You are still responsible for yourself, and that includes protecting yourself.

[superconnected]

53. when you say you don't agree with the first two, and you are agreeing

with the third, you are saying it is her fault if she is drunk and gets rapped.

Sorry MAN it is the sorry MAN who rapped hers' fault if she gets raped.

If a man rapes a woman under any circumstances it is his fault. Just because it's easier if she is drunk does not mean he may rape her.

She may get robbed and killed too, and guess what, it is still the person who chose too commit the crime who is at fault, not the victim.

Gawd, I feel like I'm speaking to a rapist. I'm certianly speaking to an enabler of them.

[oostevo]

74. Here's how I interpreted that:

(Bunch of disclosure ahead of time:
- I'm male, so my view of rape may well be fundamentally different than yours, no matter how open-minded I try to be.
- I'm not trying to offend anyone, nor become embroiled in a flame-fest)

I think that message was saying something along the lines of: it's of course not the victim's fault when a rape occurs (barring any very extraordinary circumstances that I can't think of), but at the same time, the victim should protect him or herself by acting responsibly.

I think that might have been a case of you inadvertently looking for malice where the author didn't intend any.

Here's an (admittedly strained) analogy I use to view becoming publicly plastered around a bunch of strangers or wearing very provocative clothing at inappropriate times, which I think is what the author of that message was trying to get at:
It's not at all my fault if I'm mugged while walking in a high-crime area wearing expensive watches and rings and counting the wads of cash I have in my wallet, but that doesn't make it a good idea for me to do so.

[superconnected]

122. we all know it's not a good idea to do so

But the poll and many people on this thread are saying it's the womans fault as much as the males.

In court the male would get off with that mentality.

Not a good thing to support, especially if you are a woman.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

94. "But she was drunk and there are rules against that sort of thing,"

line spoken by James Stewart's character in The Philadelphia Story, explaining why he didn't have sex (well, it's a 1939 movie, so they weren't that explicit, but the meaning is clear) with Katherine Hepburn's character, despite circumstantial evidence.

[superconnected]

121. you gotta wonder if men feel, that when men get drunks, its okay to assult

assualt them physically, including sexually. After all, they got drunk. You guys don't mind if it's other men doing the assult do you? How about a gang rape? After all it would be the guys own fault for getting drunk. Right?

My opinion is the perpertrator of the crime is the criminal, not the victim.

[Lydia Leftcoast]

129. At the time the movie was made, society

on the surface, if not always in practice held that it was ungentlemanly to take advantage of a woman who was drunk.

[LostinVA]

35. That is a shameful opinion

So, if a woman gets drunk and passes at at a friend's house, then gets raped... it's here fault, because it's no different than driving drunk, because she caused the rape to happen.

Jesus weeps.

[brentspeak]

37. Your opinions here don't exactly coincide

with the ones you posted on the Aruba/missing girl thread.

LostinVA Donating Member (1000+ posts) Click to send private message to this author Click to view this author's profile Click to add this author to your buddy list Click to add this author to your Ignore list Sun Nov-20-05 10:04 PM
Response to Reply #40
53. No, they DID protect visitors -- personal responsibility, Razzle


Ms. Holloway was legally an adult, she had friends with here, chaperones who didn't do their jobs. In college, none of us would ever have went off with people we didn't know, and if we were that nuts, our friends wouldn't have let us go. Am I blaming the victim? Of course not. I'm saying this was a very unfortunate incident that happens all the time because many kids this age act like idiots. It wasn't Aruba's fault this happened, and SHAME on you for saying it is! This young woman made some bad choices that night, that lead to whatever events that ended i her death. Because we know she's dead. But they were her choices, alas, not Aruba's.

[jefferson_dem]

41. Stalking? n/t

[brentspeak]

45. s/d

[LostinVA]

48. No, this is kinda creepy

Creepy enough that your ploy worked, and I'm leaving the thread. Thanks, Brent. You just kinda proved my point.

[superconnected]

51. please do not leave.

men should not intimidate you and scare you off of a thread for any reason.

[Name removed]

46. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

49. Deleted message

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[Name removed]

55. Deleted message

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[RazzleDazzle]

85. But you can't just say "I'm not blaming her" but then go blame her

now, can you?

Just like Jean Schmidt claiming she wasn't calling Murtha a coward or even referring to him to start with. Bullshit. She most certainly was.

As soon as you raise the specter of a rape victim's or abduction victim's pre-victimization behavior, you're raising the issue of complicity in her own victimization, even if you don't think so or see it yourself.

Because a victim's behavior does not in any way excuse or forgive rape or other victimization, and so the very subject of her behavior -- her drunkennness, her going off with strange men, partying til all hours, wearing provocative clothing, whatever -- is totally irrelevent. Stupid people, naive people, drunk people, sexy people are not "asking for it" and are not complicit in their own victimization. So there's no reason to bring it up.

[Dark]

39. I'm saying that if you get really drunk,

then what you do is your responsibility.

The guy who rapes her isn't right, or justified, or any of that bullshit.

But even when you are drunk, you are still responsible for your OWN actions.

That means if you're stupid enough to get so drunk you pass out at a party where there's people you don't know, or rather don't trust, then you are an idiot.

I'm not saying they deserve it, but an adult should know better.

[salin]

102. the question wasn't about getting so drunk one passes out

it was about being drunk - a little or a lot - the responsibility was partially or completely (per the poll question) the rapee's fault. Those (in the poll) responding to "completely" are most certainly saying that it is the victim's fault, ergo she deserved it.

[Mandate My Ass]

47. If you decide to get drunk, then you are still responsible for your action

as well as responsible for the sociopathic men who decide to rape them, right? Drinking is not an act whose consquences should be turning a life into burning wreckage.

What an assholish analysis. :eyes:

[superconnected]

54. only a sociopathic man would say she is at fault when drunk.

Eeew. Shows you whos on DU. Luckily there aren't many.

[Mandate My Ass]

56. Luckily is right

Although even one is more than enough. Sickening.

[RazzleDazzle]

82. What you seem to be missing is that rape is not HER actions but

his.

Duh!

Her drunkness doesn't matter one whit. If she's too drunk to say either yes or no (passed out), it's taking advantage of her and is absolutely rape. If she's not too drunk and says no, it's rape. She's not the actor; he is. HIS actions = rape, not hers.

[Gelliebeans]

31. this really bothers me

apparently we aren't making strides in the public arena to get out the facts of rape.

Somehow in this day and age, a certain segment of the population (34% in UK) probably similar in US still think that if a woman dresses a certain way she somehow is asking to be raped. This is so patently false.

Blaming the victim does not make sense. Rape has always been about a sick need to control the victim and not necessarily sexual in nature.

We also have to look to the tendency of regression that has been so persuasive in our societies regarding women. I believe that is the key.

I can't imagine the feelings of someone that has been raped to see these types of polls and wonder WTF these 34% of yahoos could possibly be thinking.

[superconnected]

33. there will allways be male idiots who would stoop this low

and a few women who will enable them.

Sickos.

Society has known all along it is morally wrong (without christianity). Some losers just wish it weren't.

[superconnected]

34. deleted

posted this twice.

[lakeguy]

57. unbelievable! it's like we're moving backward on the

civilization scale.

[superconnected]

73. and with women helping the men, saying it's the womans fault

We are moving backward.

There will always be women enablers of men. Men will always latch onto them for our cause. Obviously women need to do more to inform people of what is NOT acceptable.

[muriel_volestrangler]

76. See post #66 for details of the opinions by sex

which shows there's not that much difference in men's and women's opinion.

[superconnected]

78. sad, very sad.

enablers. It will cost them if they get raped and have to stand in front of a jury of women and men who support this.

Then they can call a star witness, another woman who believes women are responsible for rape.

the raped woman will know the truth the whole time - she didn't want it and he did it. And she'll get blamed. The rapist will walk, even though he should be 100 % responsible for his actions. Sick and sad.

These enablers are the kind of women who get hit and defend the abuser. I worked at a police dept. I certianly saw them enough.

[SoCalDem]

58. Puts on kevlar suit

My take on the "survey" first...Surveys can say whatever the survey-taker wants them to say. They control who they ask, what they ask and the WAY they ask, and how many they ask..


My bona fides.. I was raped at 17 because I was stupid, young, and naive..and I DO blame myself at least 50%.. Did I say NO..Of course I did, but I put myself into a dangerous situation, and I KNEW I should not have gone to that party with a 25 year old 1st leiutenant. My friend and I told them we were 18, and we did look 18, and the guy she was dating (and later married) was his friend, so I thought it would be "okay".. I grew up on bases and thought I would be safe since the party was Oktoberfest at the Officers' Club....Teenagers are not as savvy as they should be, and we all know how flattering it is to be asked out by "an older guy"..

At college, almost EVERY girl I knew had been "forced,coerced,whatever" by a guy.. usually older.. We all blamed ourselves for being stupid..

Facts are facts.. A guy can always come on to a girl without fear of being taken advantage of..a girl ALWAYS has to be careful until she really knows a guy.

....

The walking alone at night thing... ANYONE is vulnerable in that situation. A guy can get whacked over the head and robbed...a woman can get whacked over the head robbed and raped.. Maybe she won;t but it's always an "option" if the victim is a woman, and the attacker, a man..

I had no daughters, but if I had, I would have told them to :

1. NEVER GET DRUNK with anyone you do not trust with your life
2. Never go on a solo date with anyone unless you know them at least a little bit.
3. Be careful of your image. If you go out wearing next to nothing, people you don't know will judge you by how you look, and what you look like.
4. DO NOT THINK IT'S FUNNY to lead guys on. Most guys are nice, but the one you end up alone with might not be.

I guess that makes me a fuddy-duddy old Mom, but people DO make snap judgements of who you are and what kind of a person you are by the way you present yourself..

my .02

[superconnected]

71. or a female enabler of men who thinks its the womens fault if she gets

raped.

There certianly are enough of them - female enablers.

I don't care how drunk a woman gets, If she doesn't consent and the guy does rape, it is the rapists fault. He should be prosecuted for his actions.

Supporting the perpretrator is common, even among raped and beaten women.

As a women, supporting the men and saying it is the victims fault enables the men to get off in a court situation.

I feel sorry for you. I hope someday you wake up and help stop this crime by standing up to it. Any feminist site will help you.

What's next, cows for burger king?

('scues me, I've been a feminist too long, worked at a police department dealing with the type above, I wouldn't be surprised if someone who married their rapist came on next saying its the womens fault. I've sure met that kind of enabler too so know it exists.)

[Mandate My Ass]

93. I'm so sorry that happened to you

It happened to me too but when you say, "and I DO blame myself at least 50%.. Did I say NO..Of course I did, but I put myself into a dangerous situation, and I KNEW I should not have gone to that party with a 25 year old 1st leiutenant" every other innocent young woman who trusts somebody she shouldn't will also wrongfully blame herself for being victimized by a sociopath, no matter what socially upstanding rank he holds in the military.

You did not deserve what happened to you and no other young woman deserves to be raped for being overly trusting and in awe of someone who has an "image" of respectability without any of the substance.

[ErisFiveFingers]

114. Guys too....

"At college, almost EVERY girl I knew had been "forced,coerced,whatever" by a guy.. usually older.. We all blamed ourselves for being stupid.."

I can *definitely* believe that.

"Facts are facts.. A guy can always come on to a girl without fear of being taken advantage of..a girl ALWAYS has to be careful until she really knows a guy."

Well, one survey I saw showed that roughly 48% of college-age males felt they had been coerced, manipulated, or otherwise pressured to have sex with another person against their will. Guys have to be careful, too.

Males, however, often *massively* under-report to LEO's, or even to counsellors, because the stigma of being a raped or sexually assualted (or even simply "forced, coerced, whatever") male is something that society often chooses to downplay, or ignore.

http://www.goaskalice.columbia.edu/0445.html
http://www.ncvc.org/ncvc/main.aspx?dbName=DocumentViewer&DocumentID=32361
http://www.secasa.com.au/index.php/survivors/10/207

[latebloomer]

119. I was raped at age 20, and I agree with you

In NO WAY am I blaming the victim, or excusing the asshole who pulled out a gun after picking up my 2 girlfriends and me hitchhiking, BUT--

We showed VERY POOR JUDGMENT by hitching around the streets of Boston, Mass., at night, high on pot, and disregarding our own gut feelings when the car pulled up.

Our behavior was witless. They were worthless piles of shit. But we should have known to protect ourselves, because the world is full of predatory males. You can't just go galloping thru the tulips expecting that the world will take care of you.

I will make damn sure my daughter understands this when she gets old enough to be out and about by herself.

[skygazer]

126. One of the sad truths of rape

And I can attest to this because I too was raped, at the age of 15, on Christmas night, by a friend of the family -

The victim almost always will blame herself.

I did for years. For many years. I didn't even recognize it as rape, though I'd told him no, I'd done nothing to lead him on, I'd been clear that I did NOT want his attention. But I didn't scream, I didn't tell, and he didn't hold a knife to my throat so I was confused and thought maybe he misunderstood, maybe he thought I really DID want sex, maybe, maybe, maybe....

I was trying to understand why this had happened, why he would do such a thing. It was too much to comprehend that a 25 year old man would deliberately force a 15 year old virgin to have sex against her will. My mind couldnt' wrap itself around that. And so I rationalized, just as you're rationalizing.

You WEREN'T at fault any more than I was, not 50%, not 25%. HE is fully at fault because HE should have known better than to take advantage of an 18 year old girl, HE should have known better than to force himself on her. Officer and gentleman, indeed!

How can you even consider giving him any sort of pass on that behavior?

:hug: You were not at fault, not at all. Damn it, there is no reason women should have to live with limitation on their lives just because they are women. We're not the criminals here.

[uniden]

59. misleading title to say the least

n/t

[Zhade]

62. British Freepers, eh?

Fucking nonsense, of course. It is clearly the criminal's fault, not the victim's!

[HockeyMom]

64. My friend was raped at 12 years old,

coming home from school, at 3 in the afternoon, in her Catholic School uniform (ever see those things?), in the hallway of her apartment building, by a neighbor.

HER fault?

[MountainLaurel]

84. About 2/3

Of all rape victims are under the age of 18. HALF of those are under the age of 12. Guess all those 8-year-olds being raped by the stepfathers were just acting all slutty, getting tipsy on chocolate milk.

:sarcasm:

I jest, but at the same time it's not a joke. Some of the papers released in the wake of the Catholic priest rape scandals -- I think it was from Boston -- included commentary from others in the church (a nun, I believe) about how a 6-year-old girl was behaving enticingly toward a priest.

[RazzleDazzle]

90. Yeah, she shouldn't have been alone

shouldn't have lived there

shouldn't have been 12

shouldn't have been in that cute school uniform

shouldn't have been female

shouldn't have been born at all

:sarcasm:

[Name removed]

65. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DaveColorado]

69. I don't have much to add to this

I agree with Jefferson Dem that we men will never know what it's like to have the fear of being raped, unless perhaps we end up in prison, etc.

[StellaBlue]

75. in this respect

Women are always living in prison.



:(

[StellaBlue]

68. so...

does this cause us to revisit that thread from a few months ago in which people debated the authenticity of the studies that show that some ridiculous percentage (like 25 or 30%) of college men would rape women if they knew they could get away with it?

That was my first thought.

My second thought was.

:puke:

:nuke:

:grr:

Are we not to be held responsible for beating men to death with a frying pan who we see buying porn magazines or wearing misogynist messages on their T-shirts? I mean... they seem like they're asking for it to me.

[David Zephyr]

77. A woman can not even be partially responsible for being raped!

What idiots!

[ismnotwasm]

79. Wow

So once again, we see the sterotype that men are helpless over themsleves-- that they have no control when they see a potential victim. The idea that rape has to do with what a women wears, or how drunk she is total bullshit.
Rape is something much sicker than that.
Women are raped in the daytime, nighttime, parking lots. their own homes, friends homes, on the street, by friends, by husbands, by stalkers, by strangers. They are raped sober, drunk, on a "girls night out", coming home from work, coming home after dropping kids off from soccor practice. They are raped carring mace, guns, knives or if they know martial arts. They are raped in beds next to their husbands at gunpoint. They are raped as infants and as 80 year olds. They are raped whether they are married or single. They are raped whether they are sexual active or virgins. They are raped whether they are prostitutes or nuns.They are raped in upscale neighborhoods, and the poorest of the poor neighborhooods. They are raped in miniskirts and high heels and they are raped in burka's. Women are have been raped in all situations, at all times of the day or night, in all places you can imagine.
This belief that it's EVER the women's fault is very sick thinking, and fails to take in account what rape really is. It also is very damaging to men, Why would a man ever want to think that someone raping a drunken, passed out women is "her" fault? The men in my life, thank god, would consider that disgusting and wrong and would call the police or kick the motherfucker's ass if they caught some asshole all over a drunk women
There are exceptions. The 6 marines who recently gang-raped a young Fillipina woman for instance. The first thing that was reported was that she was "a sex worker" and it wasn't rape. Gee, turned out she a nice young women from a good family who had a crush on one of the marines, and thought she was going to go out on a date. Some date, huh?
Rape is rape is rape. My father used to tell me that if a women let a man get to a certain point of arousel and then said no, well, then it was her fault if things went too far.
Call me naive, but I have a better opinion of men than that. Rape is a social disease that hurts women, but also damages men. We need to fight these sterotypes, these fallicies. One, that women "deserve" rape, and the other that men can't control themselves.

[superconnected]

80. Thank you.

They really need to be told.

[MissB]

81. Thank you a thousand times.

:applause:

[BlueIris]

89. Yes, thanks: and to the RAPE APOLOGISTS in this thread,

yeah, ALL OF YOU, apologizing for the behavior of people who FORCE other human beings into sex--imagine your mothers, sisters, daughters, wives and girlfriends being sexually assaulted UNDER ANY CIRCUMSTANCES, and see if you can conjure up sympathy for the CRIMINALS who subjected them to what many consider SOCIAL MURDER. See if you can apologize for the actions of those psycopaths then. I'm dead serious. Picture it. Then feel as ashamed of yourselves as you should.

To those of who have been forced into sex, if you still feel in any sense responsible for the actions of your attackers, I BEG of you to call a rape crisis hotline. Now. Not tommorow, now. Especially if you have had the misfortune to read any of the disgusting, reprehensible, vile, misogynist posts still allowed to stand in this thread. There should be such a number in your phone book, or online phone listings for your area. Nothing is worth the pain you are still living with. Get help.

[ismnotwasm]

92. Absolutely

I second that. Many women suffer from severe,life-long PTSD, undeserved shame and self-loathing from rape. Help is out there! Thanks, BlueIris! Very, very important point.

[Mandate My Ass]

96. beautifully said

thank you so much for saying it.

[Hello_Kitty]

110. What your father said

Which sounds like something MY dad would say is wrong. I don't care how aroused a guy is and what the situation is. They can be naked, in bed, and about to have intercourse. If the woman says NO, that's it. Yeah, it sucks but he can masturbate. Men may not be able to control their sexual desire, but they can cantrol their actions toward others.

Great post isnotwasm! :yourock:

[Violet_Crumble]

117. Thanks for pointing out what shouldn't have needed to be pointed out...

I can't believe there are so many posts in this thread saying it's a woman's fault. Thanks for putting them straight so eloquently, because some of this thread has so disgusted me that I wouldn't have had the patience to say it as well as you did...

Violet...

[BiggJawn]

86. So much for the Brits being more "civilised" than your average Bubba...

Damn....Well so much for a good night's sleep now...

[Name removed]

88. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[DaveColorado]

99. Stellablue

You brought up the notion of hitting men with frying pans who wear misogynist T shirts.

What is your opinion of young women my age (17-24) who wear shirts that say things like, "Why do I need school when I have these? (imprinted over the breasts)"

And I just wanted to say, a real man would never defend rape in any circumstance. A woman who gets drunk around strangers is not making the wisest personal or safety decision, but that does give anyone an excuse to take advantage of her.

I have female friends and relatives who have confided to me that they have been raped or molested, and it just makes me burn with anger inside because I care so much about them.

[Mandate My Ass]

100. response

What is your opinion of young women my age (17-24) who wear shirts that say things like, "Why do I need school when I have these? (imprinted over the breasts)"

We celebrate the right of free speech in the U.S.of A., which includes dumbass speech. So if rape infuriates you under any circumstances, as you so self-rightously claim, you wouldn'tt have even asked this question.

[Odin2005]

98. Jesus Christ, this is disgusting.,

More "Blame the Victim" BS. Must be the same Freeper idiots who think all poor people are lazy. :grr:

[DaveColorado]

104. Candies and flowers

"So if rape infuriates you under any circumstances, as you so self-rightously claim, you wouldn'tt have even asked this question."




Please lower your frying pan.

Such inflammatory rhetoric (i.e. insinuating I am a fan of rape for pointing out a possible contradiction) will only serve to alienate those whom you wish to adopt your viewpoint.

If you've managed to insult a liberal male who is in favor of selling plan b over the counter, keeping Roe V Wade intact, reducing violence against women through legislative means, and whose shoulder has been lent to victims of violence against women close to me to cry on, how do you think your brand of over the top rhetoric will play in the frat house, in the coal mine, in the office, etc?

With that approach, your quest to change hearts and minds on this issue then becomes as laughable as Dick Cheney’s predictions of candies and flowers raining down in the streets of Baghdad.

But alas, as you reminded us earlier, we Americans readily celebrate the protection and annunciation of all free speech.

[ThePopulist]

105. One of the biggest reasons why many mean are skeptical....

is because of what my friend calls "the girl who cried wolf syndrome." This guy who I'm talking about was dating a girl in college who, after a fight, accused him of raping her. After a weekend in jail the girl dropped the charges and she basically told him to 'never treat a woman like that again.' Turns out that's called falsely filing charges and that's a felony - for which according to him she was busted for. He has told that story to every other guy I know at work.

It's stories like that where a small number of mentally disturbed women "abuse victimhood" and scare many men into treading thin ice on every date and relationship.

This is just what I have experienced in many men's attitudes however improper it may be. I know many men who have told me this same story. Again, don't attack me, I agree rape is a vicious epidemic that is cursing our nation at this moment. I'm just relaying some stories I have heard from other men who don't buy most rape claims even though they are probably true.

[salin]

106. false accusations are relatively rare - they happen, but not often

and very often recant quickly (as in the case you refer to)... the rate of rape is one of every three women under the age of thirty. They are not comparable phenomena in terms of likelihood of happening to an individual. Yet I think the "fear" stories for many males create such 'empathy' for those (supposedly) falsely accused (I say supposedly because EVERYONE is "falsely accused" of rape...) creates an allegiance with those, frankly who commit rape, esp date and acquaintance rape. That is, out of fear and empathy for the very few (but very real) cases where this is the situation... I assume this is always the case, less I ever be caught in a situation of false accusation.

Sad thing is that some of these same folks - due to buying into such stories ... can talk them into the whole entitled to sex mantra (if I take her out, and I think that she is sending receptive signals, then at the end of the evening I am entitled to sex; if she declines, it must be part of that "being coy" thing, and I will physically persuade her (aka OVERPOWER HER) otherwise, because I know that is what she really means...) That is, the appologists unintentionally embolden those who rape but don't consider their actions to be rape.

[Name removed]

113. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[melody]

112. Here I go again - it's the old stupid percentage of the public at work

20% of all people are said to be at least borderline sociopaths. Throw the purely idiotic and a handful of the somewhere-in-betweens, along with a healthy dose of people who just weren't thinking when they asked them the question, and you've got the percentage.

34% of Americans still back the Baby Grand Poobah. There you go - the idiot/malevolent factor at play.

[Bushy Being Born]

115. Like someone else said, this is probably progress

compared to a few decades ago. But still, yeah, it's terrible.

Though, women do have a responsibility - which does not equal part of any blame, thankyouverymuch - to take certain measures that would lessen the probability of being assaulted. Just like I lock my door to decrease the risk of burglary or avoid flashing my cell phone while walking home alone late at night, any woman would do good to think twice before going drunk and/or scantily clad through a bad part of town. It's just common sense, that's all.

[Moosepoop]

116. For anyone who doesn't understand rape, chew on this:

Sexual Assault Statistics
Men Against Sexual Assault
http://sa.rochester.edu/masa/stats.php

(underlines were added by me)

Assault Characteristics

Rape and sexual assault are not crimes that usually occur in dark alleys or in deserted areas at night. As a matter of fact 6 out of 10 sexual assaults occur in the home of the victim or the home of a friend, neighbor or relative. (Greenfeld, 1997) 43.4% of rapes and sexual assaults occur between the hours of 6PM and midnight Greenfeld, 1997) and about two thirds occur between the hours of 6 PM and 6 AM (Greenfeld, 1997).

^ Back to Top

Impact of Rape

Rape is a violent crime which has many severe effects on the victim both in the long term and in the short term. For example, 36% women who are injured during a rape require medical attention (National Violence Against Women Survey, Nov.1998). 25 - 45% of rape survivors suffer from non-genital trauma, 19 - 22% suffer from genital trauma, up to 40% obtain STDs and 1 - 5% become pregnant as a result of the rape. There are an estimated 32,000 rape related pregnancies in the United States annually. (Holmes, 1996) Sexual assault survivors' visits to their physicians increase by 18% the year of the assault, 56% the year after and 31% the second year after the assault. (Koss, 1993)

The consequences of rape are not always physical though, and are not always immediate. 80% of rape victims will suffer from chronic physical or psychological conditions over time. (Strategies for the Treatment and Prevention of Sexual Assault. 1995) Rape survivors are also 13 times more likely to attempt suicide than not crime victims and 6 times more likely than victims of other crimes. (Rape in America: A Report to the Nation, 1992) 26% of women with bulimia nervosa were raped at some point in their lives. The mental health costs of sexual assault victims are very high, studies have shown that 25 - 50% of rape and child sexual abuse victims receive some sort of mental health treatment as a result of the victimization. (Miller, 1996)

Overall, rape has the highest annual victim cost of any crime. The annual victim costs are $127 billion (excluding child sex abuse cases). This is followed by assault at $93 billion per year, murder (excluding arson and drunk driving) at $61 billion and child abuse at $56 billion per year. (Miller, 1996)

On the brighter side, at least in the U.S. the conviction rate for reported rapes is 46%, compared to less than 5% in the UK. The 46% number is from the same web page as the above info, and seems to be based on figures from the late 1990's, so there may have been some change in either direction in the last few years, but still far above the UK, which has gone dramatically backward in its conviction rate over the past 25 years.

Here in America, it's gotten somewhat better than it used to be, but there's still a long way to go in educating people about what rape is (and isn't).

[salin]

123. folks should read this - very good information on post and link.

Thank you for adding this to the discussion.

[cleofus1]

118. Kind of Disapointed in G.B.

I wonder what a similar poll would reflect if taken in the US?

[leesa]

120. Well, of course they are! They have that receptacle for a guy's penis and

they keep it hidden JUST to piss a guy off. What do they expect?

[newspeak]

127. rape is an act of violence!!!!!

my grandmother, living alone, had a rapist in her neighborhood--raped her neighbor who was 80 years old!!! Tell me, was she asking for it? My friend's daughter, very good looking, was dragged into a van while attempting to unlock her car door and raped by three men. Thank God they didn't get the chance to murder her--she escaped! One of my closest friends who lived with me in my senior year because her family kicked her out of the house and her church disowned saying it was her fault--her brother and her went over to his friend's house to help him move-they had some beers, and his friend slipped her a "mickey". Her brother didn't know, he left while she was on the bed-out. His friend raped her and she wound up in the hospital, but they blamed her. This was in the early seventies. Her church, Jehovah's Witness, blamed her and kicked her out of the church. She was on the street and my parents took her in. Rape is an act of violence! Period.

[maddezmom]

130. locking

discussion has ceased to be productive