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Eugene Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:51 PM
Original message
Court lets stand law denying felons a vote
Court lets stand law denying felons a vote
Mon Nov 14, 2005 10:48 AM ET

By James Vicini

WASHINGTON (Reuters) - The U.S. Supreme Court let stand on Monday a
Florida law that generally bars convicted felons from voting, even
after they have completed their term of prison, probation and parole.

The high court rejected an appeal which argued that the law could be
challenged under a section of the Voting Rights Act of 1965, which
prohibits voter disqualification based on race.

Every state in the nation, except for Maine and Vermont, prohibit, to
one degree or another, felons from voting. Fourteen states, including
Florida, generally bar felons from voting even after they have served
their sentences and have completed their terms of probation and parole.
<snip>
The appeal to the Supreme Court involved eight Florida citizens who
brought the class-action lawsuit on behalf of more than 613,000
Florida felons who are barred from voting even though they have
completed their prison sentences and their terms of probation or
parole.
<snip>

Full article: http://today.reuters.com/news/newsArticle.aspx?type=topNews&storyID=2005-11-14T154802Z_01_MOL456842_RTRUKOC_0_US-COURT-VOTING-FELONS.xml

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Maat Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:55 PM
Response to Original message
1. These are ridiculous laws, in my humble opinion.
Fortunately, my relative, who completed his sentence many years ago in California, was able to vote in California.

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wakeme2008 Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:57 PM
Response to Original message
2. The problem in Florida is Jeb sits on the paperwork
for ppl trying to get their voting rights restored.
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cantstandbush Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:27 AM
Response to Reply #2
17. Could this be unconstitutional? Aren't they still citizens? n/t
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Lowell Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 12:58 PM
Response to Original message
3. Most states allow for an automatic appeal
after the debt to society is served. Florida requires that the felon apply for clemency to the Governor. They make it as difficult as possible for the people to get their rights back. My niece was convicted of felony DUI about six years ago. She has had a terrible time. There are jobs that are not open to convicted felons and the clemency procedure is long and convoluted. It is a shame the court ruled the way it did. Florida is the worse about this.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:12 PM
Response to Original message
4. a travesty

but legalized until we have a Court or Congressional majority that is willing to enforce- rather than pervert- 14th Amendment civil rights. Or Democrats with courage take over Florida state government (and a variety of others).

The appeal was not a good case, that has to be admitted. The original lawsuit was filed on inadequate evidence and inadequate access to Florida state records. The VRA left rather than narrowed the criminal disenfranchisement loophole. There's a need for a gross cleanup in this.
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 03:11 PM
Response to Reply #4
9. 14th Am
explicitly allows denial of vote for "for participation in rebellion, or other crime." That's why neither the Court nor Congress would likely have any authority to tell Florida to do things differently. Florida should restore civil rights automatically at some point after the completion of a sentence, but they are not legally obligated to do so.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:08 PM
Response to Reply #9
10. that's the loophole

and the intent was clear that it was designed, because at the time the ability to hold office was contingent on being an elegible voter (male, white or black, and property owning), to prevent former Confederate leaders from becoming elected officials if a state decided to bar them.

Southern states soon felonized crimes that previously were misdemeanors which were largely committed by black people, stealing corn being the usual one. There was always a pardon-based vote restoration process, and remarkably enough black people never got given such pardons and white men almost invariably did.

In the late 1880s states began to implement broad disenfranchisement laws. The toughest ones were invariably the ones with a lot of black people and recent immigrants.

Section 5 says Congress can enforce the provisions of the 14th as it chooses. Clearly that enforcement or lack thereof has to be refereed by the Supreme Court.

The 1965 VRA required states to remove laws that were in effect discriminatory. When Florida revised its laws in 1968/69 the final approval of compliance was the Nixon DoJ. Draw your own conclusions about what was let pass muster. Apparently all documentation about the writing or rewriting of the law then (it's hardest to repeal in Florida because it's a constitutional amendment) is, uh, lost. In the Seventies Florida became notorious for overcharging and selective enforcement efforts against black criminals.

The crown and glory of the whole ex-felon disenfranchisement game is the Rehnquist-written verdict in Richardson v Ramirez (1974). If you haven't read it, it's one of the great travesties Rehnquist foisted on us. It was rather remarkable, wasn't it, that his obituaries didn't emphasize a single verdict or set of verdicts that were pronounced as proud public accomplishments that would stand the test of time....

It's probably true that most of the work has to be done on the state level to repeal all this disenfranchisement crap. That doesn't exonerate Congress or the Supreme Court from letting the abuses involved stand.
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 06:14 PM
Response to Reply #10
12. Whatever the reason may be
for the constitutional language in the 1st place, the Court cannot just ignore the Constitutional grant of power to the states to deny vote to those who participated in crimes. it is probably not sound policy, but the point is that the Court cannot hold something unconstitutional when the Constitution explicitly allows it.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 08:03 PM
Response to Reply #12
14. The Court

necessarily has to interpret the guarantees of section 1 to limit what the 'treason or other crime' clause permits. There are states which would criminalize membership in the American Communist Party or NAMBLA.

There is an inherent clash between Section 1 and Section 2. The Court can choose which one prevails in practice, maintaining the legal fiction of a right conferred to the states.

All the arguments you suppose to be easily the more correct are dealt with in Richardson v Ramirez.


RICHARDSON v. RAMIREZ, 418 U.S. 24 (1974)

Argued January 15, 1974.
Decided June 24, 1974.

MR. JUSTICE MARSHALL, with whom MR. JUSTICE BRENNAN joins, dissenting.
<....>
Since the Court nevertheless reaches the merits of the constitutionality of California's disenfranchisement of ex-felons, I find it necessary to register my dissent on the merits as well. The Court construes 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment as an express authorization for the States to disenfranchise former felons. Section 2 does except disenfranchisement for "participation in rebellion, or other crime" from the operation of its penalty provision. As the Court notes, however, there is little independent legislative history as to the crucial words "or other crime"; the proposed 2 went to a joint committee containing only the phrase "participation in rebellion" and emerged with "or other crime" inexplicably tacked on. 16 In its exhaustive review of the lengthy legislative history of the Fourteenth Amendment, the Court has come upon only one explanatory reference for the "other crimes" provision - a reference which is unilluminating at best. 17

The historical purpose for 2 itself is, however, relatively clear and in my view, dispositive of this case. The Republicans who controlled the 39th Congress were concerned that the additional congressional representation of the Southern States which would result from the abolition of slavery might weaken their own political dominance. 18 There were two alternatives available - either to limit southern representation, which was unacceptable on a long-term basis, 19 or to insure that southern Negroes, sympathetic to the Republican cause, would be enfranchised; but an explicit grant of suffrage to Negroes was thought politically unpalatable at the time. 20 Section 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment was the resultant compromise. It put Southern States to a choice - enfranchise Negro voters or lose congressional representation. 21

The political motivation behind 2 was a limited one. It had little to do with the purposes of the rest of the Fourteenth Amendment. As one noted commentator explained:

"`It became a part of the Fourteenth Amendment largely through the accident of political exigency rather than through the relation which it bore to the other sections of the Amendment.'" 22 "t seems quite impossible to conclude that there was a clear and deliberate understanding in the House that 2 was the sole source of national authority to protect voting rights, or that it expressly recognized the states' power to deny or abridge the right to vote." 23

It is clear that 2 was not intended and should not be construed to be a limitation on the other sections of the Fourteenth Amendment. Section 2 provides a special remedy - reduced representation - to cure a particular form of electoral abuse - the disenfranchisement of Negroes. There is no indication that the framers of the provisions intended that special penalty to be the exclusive remedy for all forms of electoral discrimination. This Court has repeatedly rejected that rationale. See Reynolds v. Sims, 377 U.S. 533 (1964); Carrington v. Rash, 380 U.S. 89 (1965).

Rather, a discrimination to which the penalty provision of 2 is inapplicable must still be judged against the Equal Protection Clause of 1 to determine whether judicial or congressional remedies should be invoked. That conclusion is compelled by this Court's holding in Oregon v. Mitchell, 400 U.S. 112 (1970). Although 2 excepts from its terms denial of the franchise not only to ex-felons but also to persons under 21 years of age, we held that the Congress, under 5, had the power to implement the Equal Protection Clause by lowering the voting age to 18 in federal elections. As MR. JUSTICE BRENNAN, joined by MR. JUSTICE WHITE, as well as myself, there observed, 2 was intended as no more "than a remedy supplementary, and in some conceivable circumstances indispensable, to other congressional and judicial remedies available under 1 and 5." 400 U.S., at 278 .

The Court's references to congressional enactments contemporaneous to the adoption of the Fourteenth Amendment, such as the Reconstruction Act and the readmission statutes, are inapposite. They do not explain the purpose for the adoption of 2 of the Fourteenth Amendment. They merely indicate that disenfranchisement for participation in crime was not uncommon in the States at the time of the adoption of the Amendment. Hence, not surprisingly, that form of disenfranchisement was excepted from the application of the special penalty provision of 2. But because Congress chose to exempt one form of electoral discrimination from the reduction-of-representation remedy provided by 2 does not necessarily imply congressional approval of this disenfranchisement. 24 By providing a special remedy for disenfranchisement of a particular class of voters in 2, Congress did not approve all election discriminations to which the 2 remedy was inapplicable, and such discriminations thus are not forever immunized from evolving standards of equal protection scrutiny. Cf. Shapiro v. Thompson, 394 U.S. 618, 638 -639 (1969). There is no basis for concluding that Congress intended by 2 to freeze the meaning of other clauses of the Fourteenth Amendment to the conception of voting rights prevalent at the time of the adoption of the Amendment. In fact, one form of disenfranchisement - one-year durational residence requirements - specifically authorized by the Reconstruction Act, one of the contemporaneous enactments upon which the Court relies to show the intendment of the framers of the Fourteenth Amendment, has already been declared unconstitutional by this Court in Dunn v. Blumstein, 405 U.S. 330 (1972).
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:14 AM
Response to Reply #14
15. Marshall's view spoke for
only 2 justices.
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Lexingtonian Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 02:19 PM
Response to Reply #15
21. you forgot "at the time"

in that sentence. 31 years- half a lifetime- ago.
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #21
22. Probably even fewer
now. Otherwise there probably would have been dissents from the denial of cert.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 10:24 AM
Response to Reply #12
16. So much for strict constructionism, eh?
The language very obviously refers to confederate leaders, not people who stole a car 30 years ago. This is racism and disenfranchisement of the the poor elevated to the level of solemn law. There is no sound reason for denying people the vote after their sentences and parloe have expired. There is no reason other than overt disenfranchisement for race and class purposes, and the maintenance of political hegemony.
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 12:16 PM
Response to Reply #16
18. That is not the point
I was not arguing that there IS a good reason for denying ex-felons the right to vote after they have served their sentences. What I did say is that the Constitution explicitly allows this policy, as misguided as it may be. Much like the Constitution allows a state to completely ban alcohol production/consupmtion (See Am. XIX, Sec. 2, "The transportation or importation into any State, Territory, or possession of the United States for delivery or use therein of intoxicating liquors, in violation of the laws thereof, is hereby prohibited.") We all know how smart the policy of prohibition is, yet it is right there in the Constitution should a state want to enact such a law.

The Constitution does not protect us from our own stupidity.
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alcibiades_mystery Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 12:43 PM
Response to Reply #18
19. Right
Edited on Tue Nov-15-05 12:44 PM by alcibiades_mystery
The Constitution never proposes to protect citizens from state abuse of power...:eyes:

If we are talking about an interpretation of the 14th Amendment (and we appear to be doing just that), then it is a question of whether the so-called strict constructionists actually cleave to their babblings about original intentions on this matter ("explicit" allowances needing to be interpreted as much as anything else under this doctrine). It seems precisely the point.
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DrGrishka Donating Member (47 posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 02:29 PM
Response to Reply #19
23. It's not ABUSE of power
if that power was explictly granted. It is just not a wise exercise thereof.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:16 PM
Response to Reply #23
26. I have to agree
I am completely against these laws and I think they should not be permited as they do make felons into an powerless under-class... Especialy when you consider what is counted as a fellony and how biased the prosicution often is.

But I agree that as the amendment is written the judges probobly ruled correctly. The constitution does not protect us against our own stupidty and even ensrines previous generations stupidity.

It was a stupid thing to include in the first place. They should have been much more explicit.

A case can be made that this was not the original intention of the amendment, and one can try to pit this amendment against others... but in the end the wording is clearly intentionaly broad. It does not say 'high crimes' it does not say 'crimes commided against the state' or any such thing... it just says 'other crimes'.

I think we are screwed on this one even though I fully agree that it is basicaly a way to protect the powerful... unfortunately that is the case with much of the constitution and even more of how it is interpreted.
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Bridget Burke Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:16 PM
Response to Original message
5. Even TEXAS has a better rule.
Two years after completing the incarceration, probation or parole--the "ex-con" becomes a "voter" again.
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Village Idiot Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 01:35 PM
Response to Original message
6. Just think - perhaps ShrubCo will not be able to vote in 2008!
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jody Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:05 PM
Response to Original message
7. When a felon's civil rights are restored without exceptions, voting and
the right to keep and bear arms (RKBA) are restored. Many people forget that the right to vote and RKBA are both civil rights.
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 06:17 PM
Response to Reply #7
13. So having fair elections is inconsistent with the 2nd Amendment?
Letting everybody vote would mean letting everybody own bazookas, Uzis, and .50-calibers, and that's why you favor "felon" disfranchisement?

That sounds like a real stretch of the imagination to me.
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Charlie Brown Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 02:11 PM
Response to Original message
8. Even AFTER they've served their time?!!
Edited on Mon Nov-14-05 02:13 PM by Charlie Brown
If all the state has to do to keep you from voting is throw the book at you, don't expect to be voting for much longer.

Sheesh, if you're ever in a bad vehicle accident and cited you could lose your right to vote forever.
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Realityhack Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:17 PM
Response to Reply #8
27. Yep. - Welcome to Amerika n/t
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MojoXN Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Mon Nov-14-05 05:10 PM
Response to Original message
11. Ah, lifetime disenfranchisement laws...
Yet another dishonest, underhanded way that the GOP tips the balance in their favor.

MojoXN
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slaveplanet Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 12:54 PM
Response to Original message
20. Intrude??
Sovereignty???

yet Congress ingnores those two , when it comes to law enforcement...How fucking conveinient

It is unfathomable that Congress would intrude so deeply into the sovereign right of every state to set qualifications for voting and to establish punishments without leaving at least some indication in the legislative record that it intended such a radical result," they said.

The high court denied the appeal without any comment or recorded dissent
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AirAmFan Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 06:59 PM
Response to Reply #20
24. 'Intrusion' with 'carrots' still could work, where 'intrusion' with
'sticks' would be struck down by the Rehnquist-Roberts USSC.

More legislation is needed to correct state-to-state disparities in Federal elections, beyond what already was enacted in the 'Help America Vote Act' of 2002. Because State governments resist "unfunded mandates", changes in Federal election laws are accompanied by Federal funding.

In the 2002 conference on HAVA, Senator Chris Dodd got "rolled" by the Republicans and did not insist on mandatory Federal standards for Federal elections. The best way to eliminate "felon disfranchisement" from Federal elections is by mandating such elimination in Federal election standards. States like Florida still would be free to do what they want, but they wouldn't get Federal election funding unless they got rid of relics of post-Reconstruction racism like "felon disfranchisement".

It's a real tragedy that Florida and the other "felon disfranchisement" states have gotten hundreds of millions of Federal dollars since 2002 to refine their disfranchisement systems. Because of police profiling and other causes of 8-to-1 racial disparities in incarceration, very high proportions of minority males now have the very same "voting rights" they had during slavery!
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sofa king Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:05 PM
Response to Original message
25. I don't understand why the felons aren't all voting GOP, anyway.
What, is there no honor among thieves?
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:24 PM
Response to Reply #25
29. There was no call for that.
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obxhead Donating Member (1000+ posts) Send PM | Profile | Ignore Tue Nov-15-05 07:22 PM
Response to Original message
28. Anyone who has been through the system,
however petty of a crime, learns how the system works first hand.

Once you see first hand how it works, you will desire to change it. Those who vote have a chance to change things.
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