Lyon Burns as Riots Hit City Centre (France)

[callady]

Lyon burns as riots hit city centre

Violence moves out of the suburbs for the first time while Paris prepares for the worst

Alex Duval Smith in Paris
Sunday November 13, 2005
The Observer


Riots spread to the centre of a French city for the first time last night as police clashed with youths in Lyon.

Officers in the city's famous Place Bellecour moved in with tear gas to disperse rioters vandalising vehicles. Police said they had been attacked by groups brandishing bottles, stones and dustbins.

The confrontation, which led to two arrests, happened shortly after the local prefect had announced a weekend curfew on minors.

Meanwhile, Paris was under siege yesterday as thousands of police guarded key tourist sites such as the Eiffel Tower and the Champs-Elysées and enforced emergency laws, including a ban on groups of people gathering.

The capital's prefect of police, Pierre Mutz, said the record deployment of some 3,000 officers was in response to a barrage of text messages and weblogs thought to have come from youths linked to the previous 16 nights of unrest in the city's suburbs. They called for 'the biggest riot ever seen'.

http://observer.guardian.co.uk/international/story/0,6903,1641567,00.html

[bahrbearian]

1. I'm sure glad we're fighting them in Iraq, instead of here.

[pfitz59]

2. It can happen here, easily......

Another big hurricane, a severe blizzard, blackout, earthquake, tornado cluster..... Won't take much to spark the smoldering embers of hatred underlying American society. I witnessed the Rodney King riots as well numerous clashed during the tumultuous '60's. The culture wars in America are far from over! The Bushista Chicken-hawks will one day go too far!

[Up2Late]

13. I wonder if, come this winter people start finding their Mothers and...

...Grand-mothers frozen to death in their apartments, because they couldn't pay their Heating bills... Or they start to flood the homeless shelters rather that freeze to death in their unheated apartments, I wonder if that would be the spark, come this January?

I think you could be right about this countries poor, we are nearing the tipping point. :mad:

[Name removed]

14. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[dionysus]

23. he was being sarcastic newbie!!!!

;)

[bahrbearian]

24. Sorry , about using a Right wing Talking Point and being

sarcastic with it..
Who you calling a fool ..FOOL
Try to find some humor.

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

51. I apologize.

In my own defense, let me admit that I have been on hair-trigger over the insinuation that this unrest has anything to do with religion or terrorism in general.

Perhaps, as a "newbie", I should bite my tongue... Nah!

[donco6]

25. Calm down, it was sarcasm.

He wasn't making a crack about Islam.

[goclark]

3. Bush should be held entirely responsible for all of this mess

I'm sure he is secretly loving this because he wants everyone to "go on the hunt" for "those people."

[beam me up scottie]

4. What?

I hate * as much as anyone but what does he have to do with racial inequality and unrest in France?

[goclark]

5. The Chimp has a lot to do with racial inequality in the US

They read the news in France.
They heard about Katrina and they realize that their government is treating them the same way.

He is not directly responsible, but as a minority, I see what is happening in France, the frustration and the anger, is what is boiling here.

If I hear one more White Man like the chimp/Bernard Kerik(sp.) telling the world that "these people," these terrorists , are messing up in THE -... insert > (White Man's) world, I will puke.

"These Muslims,these poor people, these Katrina refugees-in their own country, these Rappers, these Black people without jobs etc, I will puke.

:puke:

[enid602]

6. terror

I have a feeling that the word 'terrorist' will soon morph to include anyone who does not agree with the regime. The 'war on terror' may ultimately be fought among ourselves.

[goclark]

7. I agree with you enid nt

Terrorists will mean anyone that does not look and act and be rich like GWB.

[JVS]

29. "...their government is treating them the same way"

That part of it disproves your claim that it is entirely the fault of *. Clearly the French government plays a role here.

[LiberteToujours]

44. Your point of view is misinformed

I appreciate your analysis but I disagree strongly. The news from the United States does not have as much effect in France as you think. The United States is not the center of the universe, especially in France where they have a very developed and proud culture of their own. The rioting in France is caused by France's internal problems alone. The United States is not the only country with problems.

[alcibiades_mystery]

45. Check below...saying such things apparently makes us racists!

What? The United States is not the center of the universe? The politics of contemporary France could be inbcredibly complex and not dependent on the mere gestures of George W. Bush? Are you some sort of racist?!?

I'm joking, of course, but the nonsense on this very point downthread is telling enough.

[alcibiades_mystery]

8. Completely ridiculous

It truly doesn't help to sound like a crazy person.

The conditions in France did not erupt on November 8, 2000. Nor did the conditions throughout the world. Bush has accopmplished one thing, clearly. He has made people like you cathect on him in a way that defies all reason, thereby making you look unreasonable. What a silly fucking statement. You discredit yourself and your allies.

[beam me up scottie]

9. Thank you.

I was trying to restrain myself.(it's been a tough week)

[Hardrada]

10. What is the past imperfect plural of "cathect?"

Inquiring minds want to know.

[jayfish]

16. Were Cathecting?

We were cathecting the script before it's final submission.

Jay

[AngryAmish]

31. It's a perfectly crumulent word.

[goclark]

11. You keep your opinion and I'll keep mine

I am not crazy.

I am one of "those people" that you can not possibly think understands anything.

You have never walked in my shoes and I have as much right as you do to express my opinion.

[alcibiades_mystery]

12. Nobody's taking away your right to an opinion

Have all the opinions you want. I will reserve, however, the right to question them when you spew nonsenses in public.

[Tomee450]

19. Well you know

how it is, goclark, there are still a lot of people who believe that certain people should stay in their place. That kind of anger speaks volumes.

[goclark]

22. Right Tomee... "Raisin In The Sun"

I am reminded of my favorite poet, Langston Hughes...

http://webpages.charter.net/classicpoetry/harlemadreamdeferred.htm

One of the values of DU is that liberal thinkers have an opportunity to speak freely based on their own experiences.

We am coming from the belief that this is a forum for people that share our political beliefs about JUSTICE and FAIRNESS.

We come to share our experiences so that other "Liberal Democrats," that may not have lived the African American/Minority experience, can gain a better understanding of the depth of our frustration.

I suppose that the best way to compare it is to point out the frustration that the "Liberal Democrats" here feel when the Republicans continue to disregard our ideas and thoughts about the WAR, the Economy,Medicare and the Supreme Court(just to name a few areas.)

When Republicans say the Liberal Democrats are "crazy" and they don't understand anything about the war etc., it makes us all so angry!

Well that is the same feeling that African Americans feel EVERY DAY!
That is the same feeling that those that have been neglected in France feel EVERY DAY.

That feeling is "A Raisin In The Sun."
What happens to that feeling?
Langston Hughes tells it to all those willing to digest his message.

Peace

[Name removed]

32. Deleted message

Message removed by moderator. Click here to review the message board rules.

[Tomee450]

46. Great post, goclark

I agree totally. Unfortunately, there are still too many people in this country who have the Jim Crow attitude towards African Americans. We are not to express our opinion, especially if it's critical of someone from the majority population.

[alcibiades_mystery]

47. I agree that there are too many people who believe that

I also cannot believe that you persist in implying that I am one of them. Your indecency on this matter knows no bounds. You make the grossest charge against me imaginable and yet refuse to provide the slightest piece of evidence. And now that you've stated that you won't address my concerns directly (your argument having been sliced to sad little pieces), you now timidly hide your claims in responses to others. One need look no further to see the true pathetic and cowardly nature of your accusations.

[alcibiades_mystery]

30. How dare you?

Let's review: Goclark made the quite foolish comment that Bush is responsible for the French riots. I said such a comment was ridiculous, and it is. Suddenly I'm a racist who is no friend of minorities? What the fuck are you even talking about? Explain, in clear language, how you got from Point A to Point B. I'd love to hear this. As it stands, rather than supporting goclark's argument, you are merely calling me a racist through vile and cowardly implication, though it is thoroughly unclear how my post has anything at all to do with anyone's race, period. Either you stand for your accusation, or you don't. But to throw around such accusations without support is both despicable as an ethical practice and laughable as an argumentative practice. It is also craven in the extreme. Maybe this is what counts as argument in your world - calling everyone who disagrees with you an angry racist! Serious people, however, cannot take you seriously if this is the form of argument you take. And good people cannot abide such repugnant tactics. And you call ME angry? I'm not the one throwing around accusations of racism without support. That would be you.

[Tomee450]

35. What the heck are you talking about?

How dare you ask me, How dare you? Are you superior? Do you have rights that I do not? Is that how you feel? You have a right to your opinion, but I not to mine? I stand by what I wrote. You were way out of line and your angry response is further evidence that my assessment is correct. Name calling is usually resorted to when one is unable to defend his position. YOU attacked someone who was not attacking you. You not only attacked but resorted to vulgarity and name calling. Why are you so angry at another person who supports the democrats, who speaks about a member of a different party. Every one has a right to express his views but you went way beyond that. You appear to be enraged at the comment. And yes, I've seen your attitude before. It has come from people who really have no respect for the opinion of a black person. It also has come from people who really supports this administration and who become outraged when it is criticized. During Clinton's eight years in office, Republicans who attacked him were never on the receiving end of attacks from fellow Republicans for their criticism of the president. Your behavior makes one wonder.

[alcibiades_mystery]

37. More to do with DECENCY than rights

You accuse me, in a cowardly way, of racism - without support, without evidence, without substantiation. You of course have the RIGHT to behave in this egregious and despicable manner...it is merely decency that would prevent it. And on that score, your posts appear to be gravely lacking.

Now, as for the rest of your so-called argument:

"You appear to be enraged at the comment." That wasn't "enraged," and I'd be curious to see your evidence for what constitutes enraged. It was more incredulousness at how ignorant the comment was.

"And yes, I've seen your attitude before. It has come from people who really have no respect for the opinion of a black person. It also has come from people who really supports this administration and who become outraged when it is criticized. During Clinton's eight years in office, Republicans who attacked him were never on the receiving end of attacks from fellow Republicans for their criticism of the president. Your behavior makes one wonder."

A fine mess of associations and ad hominems. You've seen my "attitude" before, supposedly, though you don't know what my attitude was, or at least you've misrepresented it here on numerous occasions. Then you make the ultimate cowardly move, by associating that so-called attiutude, and "therefore" (though there is no logic here) me with 1) racists, 2) Republicans, and 3) Freepers - though it is of the essence of your cowardly argument that you'll never come out and say any of these things (not least because you can't support any of these charges with anything more than your vague associations!). What a despicable mess. What an indecent way to appraoch another person. I will state clearly here to help you with comprehension: I am not a racist; I am not a Republican; I am not a Freeper. Now, will you ever - EVER - actually defend goclark's comments on their merits, or critique my response on its merits, so that we can address the issue reasonably, or will you persist in these underhanded and half-assed personal attacks that cower behind your associations rather than making any claims?

[Tomee450]

39. Is it impossible for you

to engage in a discussion without name calling? Oh well, obviously not. Words can be quite revealing. I believe my assessment of you is perfectly correct. You were hostile and angry and in my opinion, there are only two reasons for that, both previously stated.

[alcibiades_mystery]

40. You are the one making personal attacks

As for your opinion about my supposed anger, we all know what they say about opinions. What is quite telling is that you refuse to address the issue on its merits, preferring instead to hide behind your cowardly claims of racism. It's disgusting.

[Tomee450]

41. I've stated my opinion.

and stand by it. Your reaction was unwarranted, and over the top. Your attack reminds me of how blacks were treated during the Jim Crow era. How dare they express their opinion. I guess a lot of people still have that same attitude.

You will have your opinion, and I mine. I have said all I wish to say regarding the matter. We can agree to disagree.

[alcibiades_mystery]

42. You persist in this nonsense, then

Now that you've been called out on your despicable argumentative practices, you run and hide, stating that the argument is over. Lacking all argument, lacking all evidence, lacking all ethics, lacking any sense of decency, you merely imply that I am like Jim Crow racists. If I were to stoop to such a despicable level, one could easily say that yours is an argumentative tactic reminiscent of the worst McCarthyites and red-baiters. Your posts never actually say anything, because implying is enough to tarnish me with the racist brush. "Wink wink - I won't say he's a racist, but you all know what I mean, hardy har." You need no evidence to support your claims, since you rely on the worst instincts of your audiences. What a sham! What childishness! What tripe! What dishonesty! What miserable, unethical, slimey dishonesty!

You damn skippy that we'll agree to disagree. I repudiate your implication wholesale and completely. And I challenge you to sustain any of your rude suggestions witrh any evidence whatsoever. I'll not hold my breath for any decency, though.

[Tomee450]

17. For crying out loud

why are you attacking someone who hasn't attacked you? You seem so offended for someone who is posting on a board that is supposed to be progressive. As for as allies are concerned, what allies are you talking about. Anyone who would get so angry was never an ally to begin with. Exactly the opposite, imo. I've seen far worse comments about Mr. Bush that did not get the kind of angry reaction that you have shown. As a black person, I've seen that kind of reaction from people who really are disdainful of certain people and don't think they should have a right to express their views. If that is the case with you, that is most unfortunate.

[alcibiades_mystery]

21. Oh please

goclark's comment is ignorant in the extreme, which is my only concern. And cut the nonsense about me trying to stifle someone else's rights. That's just a cowardly deflection. As if we can't call bullshit on something anymore without being portrayed as speech-stiflin' stormtroopers.

Gimme a fucking break.

[Tomee450]

28. I stand by everything I wrote

What the heck are you so darn angry about? I really wonder about someone who expresses your kind of outrage at a comment directed about someone from a different party, someone certainly no friend of democrats, and particularly minorities.

For the eight years of Clinton's presidency, the most vile comments were written and said about him by Republicans. Did Republicans express your kind of crude and rude comments about those Republican critics, the answer is no. Whatever happened to being respectful, even to those with whom we disagree. Your kind of comment usually come from those who support this administration and who get riled at its critics. I have also seen your kind of anger directed at black people who have the nerve to voice their opinion about a white person. You have a right to your opinion but the way you expressed your criticism is way out of line. Here you are using vulgar language and even calling people silly. I would expect your comments to be found on that other, rabidly right wing forum.

[alcibiades_mystery]

33. I wasn't the least bit angry, and I don't know where you get that

Your continuing cowardly claims that I am a racist, however, are getting me peeved. Either you have an argument, or you don't. As it stands, you seem more content with vicious and unfounded ad hominems, a clear sign that you have nothing of substance to offer.

[Tomee450]

36. I stand by what I wrote.

One can criticize but respectful people do so in a decent manner. They don't attack, don't call names. They are secure in their position and have no need to engage in such hostile behavior. In your case, the original posters was not even attacking you, simply stating an opinion about another person. I can see no reason, other than those previously suggested, for your angry rant.

[alcibiades_mystery]

38. And I stand by mine

You will no doubt accuse me of racism again, in your own underhanded way. And you propose to lecture me about decency?

[La_Fourmi_Rouge]

15. Riot in Place Bellecour

Let's not get lost in petty grievances...

Place Bellecour is the second largest public square in Europe. It is Enormous, and a gathering place for all the people of Grande Lyon. Nearby, La Rue de la Republique is likewise familiar to all the citizens of that fair city. For it to be torn by violence is a heartbreak and an affront, and yet it was inevitable - the poverty and unrest in the cite has been brewing for decades.

The French are paying the piper for their colonial adventures, and they have a long way to go, especially in these hard economic times.

The progressive community is alive in Lyon, but, just as in the USA, the so-called leaders have been weak or nonexistent. There is not one representive of North African descent in the entire government, and never has been, even though the histories of France and Algeria have been intertwined for about a century. The young do not look to the mosque for guidance, they look to each other, and listen to the great, politically alive and aware rap and reggae music that pervades their urban culture.

Watch the movie "La Haine" ("Hate"). It is an education in itself, and puts things in perspective.

At this most difficult time, please gather your thought before you speak.

[beam me up scottie]

18. Thanks,

appreciate the perspective.

I'll look for the movie.

[xchrom]

20. this unrest was unavoidable. and must be taken with some patience.

the french are wonderful people -- and for the most part exceedingly well intentoned.

i think it comes as a shock that their egalitarian society isn't so egalitarian.

but i also think they will work hard to right these wrongs.

[donco6]

26. Why is it that no N. Africans or other colonial emigres . . .

have ever been elected? Is voting restricted or something? Didn't France grant their colonies emancipation long before the US? I just don't understand how they can have been shut out for so long (as they obviously have been).

[rayofreason]

34. Liberte, Egalite, Fraternity...

...is a fine slogan, but the reality is that French politics and society is quite hierarchical, including the educational system.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Education_in_France

Given this stratification, it is not surprising that the political parties have not put forward many (if any) North African candidates. After all, they didn't go the the "right schools", etc.

France has a long, long way to go in integrating its minorities, and I am not sure that they will get there. For all the talk of multiculturalism, being French is still an ethnic definition, and France is not ready to really accept Tunisian, Algerians, etc., as French, even into the 2nd and 3rd generation. This is true of all European countries, not just France.

So I expect that the troubles will continue, and historians may see this as the first phase in a civil war. While the muslims are only 10% of the population, they are 35% of the under 20 crowd, and close to half of the elementary age kids. Streets battles are a young man's game, so in just a decade the numbers will be one to one of those who will form the sharp edge of competing views of what France should be. Not a pretty picture, and even less pretty when one considers European history. The post WWII peace anomaly was due only to the US, and that period of history is over. Bosnia/Kosovo will probably be the last time for a while that Americans will be willing to wage war to prevent European bloodbaths.

[DemExpat]

43. Yes, I agree with you.

I have lived In The Netherlands most of my life, and I clearly remember discussions in my youth with European youth who with an air of superiority said that social problems existing in the US would never occur here! Heck, I can hear commentators on political discussion programs on television and radio in the not so distant past (a few years!) talking about "American conditions" that could not/would not EVER take place here.....

My husband and I for years have sadly smiled at this naivety and arrogance, knowing full well that if Europe had to deal with the diversity that exists in America the problems would be VERY similar.

Voila!

I feel quite somber over future prospects of Europe and the world after a period of careful optimism that I had when Clinton was president.

:-(

DemEx

[daleo]

48. These numbers don't make sense

10% of France's population is about 6 million (as of July 1, 2004 France had 59,900,700 people). If we assume that the under 20 proportion of the population is about 25%, that gives 15,000,000 under 20 years of age. You say that 35% of the under 20 population is Muslim, which would be 5.25 million. So, your figures would indicate that 88% of the Muslim population of France is under 20. I can't see it. Among other things, it would imply that the average Muslim family in France has 18 kids.

http://www.iiasa.ac.at/Research/ERD/DB/data/hum/dem/dem_11.htm

http://www.statcan.ca/Daily/English/050928/d050928a.htm

[rayofreason]

49. My mistake.

I wrote that 10% of France is ethnic minority. It is actually 10 million.

http://www.businessweek.com/magazine/content/05_47/b3960013.htm

So that would imply that a bit over half, not 88%, is under 20. Much more reasonable.

France is deep trouble unless the French redefine what it means to be French.

[daleo]

50. Your link actually says 5 million first and second generation African/Arab

"Youth joblessness runs over 50% in the suburbs that are home to many of France's more than 5 million first- and second-generation African and Arab immigrants."

It does give 10 million for the total immigrant or second generation population, but that would include a lot of non-Muslim immigration, which aren't necessarily germane to the current unrest.

"Could the French riots signal the start of broader European social upheaval? France's situation is more explosive than most. It has the Continent's biggest immigrant population. An estimated 9.8 million residents, or 15% of the population, are either immigrants or children of immigrants. Many are isolated in ghettos. In Germany, by contrast, "segregation and ghettoization into separate neighborhoods is not nearly as prevalent ," says Dirk Halm, an analyst at the Center for Studies on Turkey at the University of Duisburg-Essen."

All that being said, France obviously needs to work on its policies regarding immigration and the necessary adjustments. Things have worked remarkably well in Canada so far - perhaps they could take some lessons from there.

[rayofreason]

53. Only muslims?

No, the problem is not only the muslim minority, though it is the most serious aspect of the problem because they can create an islamist identity that gives them no stake in France. This has not yet become the dominant theme, but the islamist influence is growing. Other ethnic minorities have been involved in the riots, including sub-saharan black africans as well as arab north africans.

http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/content/article/2005/11/05/AR2005110501515.html

France has a huge population of ethnic minority immigrants. 10 million ethnic minorities, 5 million, 20 and younger. A demographic time bomb. And the fact that we, along with everybody else, refers to 2nd and 3rd generation as "immigrant" just illustrates the depth of the problem. Soon only half the youth of France will be "French", and traditional French culture, views, and even population will be seen as facing an existential threat. What do you think will happen then? Le Pen will seem tame by comparison with some who will offer "solutions".

Unless France can really integrate these people into French life and culture, as well as habits of mind, (and in doing so, redefine "French") the worst will come. But I fear that the French will not be willing to do that until too late. How will they be able to create the jobs and social mobility required with a state sector that is 46% of the economy, with unions that jealously guard their fiefdoms, an educational system that is heavily tracked, and a mandarin class of state functionaries who will not under any circumstance touch the 35 hr workweek, long vacations, and early retirement? France has become a great Ponzi scheme, with those at the top of the pyramid calling the shots - at least until the base crumbles below them.

[JanMichael]

27. When these riots started I immediately thought of "Hate". Great film.

It's one of those movies that help people understand the conditions that have led to the riots. They aren't happening without ecades of bad decision making and conditions for multi-generations of immigrants. Also there are, from what I've heard, plenty of poor "whites" starting to join in on the destruction and I don't blame them one bit.

[slackmaster]

52. This morning's fishwrap declared the riots "winding down"

Go figure.